Yet another basement... Call for a bit of help

Hi all, Let's try this again... This time in the right forum... Sorry.. :oops: I've been lurking around the forums here for quite some time now (enjoying it thoroughly BTW) and after much agonizing, thought I'd finally break down and ask some questions. I've been torturing myself with a studio design for my basement and am utterly unhappy with everything I can come up with (including a dual trapazoidal room design that I just couldn't get enough symmetrical listening space for). So...... HELP!!!! (please?). As a precursor, I've looked at everything here including all the basement designs and caveats. At SAE (though a bit basic for me). Scoured the web for other studios to use as an example, but to no avail (including John's "Blue Bear", BTW as you're sure to see some similarities; then there's the damn stairs...). I've built a pair of great sounding commerically used rooms in the past (80's - yeah it's been a while) so I do have some experience with that, but this one is really knawing away at me... (by now, some of you may be questioning my judgement in wanting to build another room). So (he takes a deep breath and, apologetically, spews forth, a long winded post) ... It's pretty much a traditional 8" block construcion basement in a center hall colonial. However, there are several problems to contend with. The first, is a really low ceiling (at 7' to stringers). The next is a lovely 6x10 prop girder running the center (just off by a foot) length of the basement bringing the ceiling down to about 6' there), supported by 4" steel posts at 7' 8" intervals. (see pic with rough layout). That girder effectively divides the basment into 12' and 14' halves. The length of the drawing is 70' 8" x 28". Of that, 49' is the basement (the right hand side). Out of that, about 30' x 28' is mine to use; plus or minus a bit (to the wall that's right of the space labeled "Shop")... I have a few requirements: 1. A large and visually (and preferably spacially) contiguous tracking space capabale of housing about 8-10 musicians (horns and rhythm sec). It's a squeeze but.. I like live spaces and don't have much use for dead ones. After all, you can deaden a live space, but you just can't go the other way without involving the local demolition experts :wink: and my trusty home-made Plates ... A "removable" drum iso space at one end could be nice. Losing tracking space in favor of a larger control room is not cool for me, no matter what the "current" thinking on that on is so, please.. I also want to keep the concrete block walls as much as possible in there (I'll add hanging attenuation). 2. An Iso booth that can be used for high-volume sound sources (hence it's current location surrounded by 8" block with an 8" concrete porch on top of it all of which (save the top foot of the block, surrounded by earth; it is a basment after all). Visibility is not necessary. BTW, that porch/iso space is 6' wide to center and about 8' long (with the same damn 7' ceiling - ungh) incase you were wondering. 3. I'd need some natural light in the control room (cause without it, I'll die; kind of an anti-vampire sort of thing). Since I do my mixing at lower levels, noise is not an issue. Besides, my neighbors are pretty far away. In the pic, I've put the CR on the side with a hopper window that gets the best light. There is an addtional hopper that get's some light on the far, long wall (about center mass of the space). 4. The control room has to have enough room for my MR-2 console (at about 11 feet wide (by 39" deep) with a side car- 9 without - I could rig a sliding patchbay underneath (though I always thought that was asking for trouble...) and a recorder sofit (for my A80 widebody 2" and 1/4" VU) plus iso space for any computers/faned outboards (cause them damn fans make me crazier than this process has made me...). There also should be a way to get that damn anti-christ sized (but GREAT sounding) console in/out of there without entirely dismantling it (and the room to boot). 5. I can't deal with a mixing position that has a dramatically tangental line of sight to the tracking space. I just don't like it and would never get used to it, though I know that it does open up some space use possibilities.. (Been in a few and it just feels too wierd for me). 6. All the usual (though not in the floating extreme ) CR to tracking room iso concerns (eg double walls..). However, I am a bit curious as to how I can possibly work in a "strung" floating ceiling without losing more than about 3'4" of head room (cause 7' is damn claustrophobic attack inducing for most non-splunkers to begin with). I do have some interestingly stupid ideas on that, btw. I'll save it for a possible future discussion though as, well... 7. I've made no provision for HVAC yet as the routing thereof will obviously be influenced by the layout. The drawing does have a pic of the current 5 ton heat exchanger for the A/C that should be adequate to run a split off of ( though I might be replacing it soon as it is kinda gettin' old). All my heat is electric and staying that way (radiant ceiling panels - ask me if you need more about this - I'm sold on em'). I've tried tracking under the the ones in the rest of the house and can't even get single coil guitar pickups to get a buzz off of 'em though I can't fathom why given the field those panels can supposedly put out... 8. I'd really like a shop space for myself as well (it's the one that's in the pic, btw) cause I've gotta have someplace to keep that bunch of crap I call "gear" (also known as vintage...) in the top shape it's in now. :twisted: There are also a few minor, but immovable (lest I file for divorce. :oops: ) limitations: 1. There is an area that is to the left of the stairs (and shop) that looks like it has some gym equipment in it and some walled in space. All that space is OFF LIMITS as it's my wife's workshop. 2. I'm not doing any structural changes (like getting rid of the header or moving its support posts). That includes digging out the space to get an extra foot or 2 of head room (not possible anyway due to the miserably townies and the underground stream to drive the last nail into the coffin on that). 3. I'm comittied to using this space as building out is not an option (Or was that I should be comitted; I can't remember anymore). The garage is also not usable (cause the wife needs her indoor parking - I don't even have that...). Don't ask me to argue it. I've come to accept it as gospel. And if I have to, well.... 4. My budget is kinda meager but "reasonable" if I stage thiis correctly (again, I've done this before so I know what I can get myself into :wink: and out of for that matter). It's going to be DIY (also done that previously). As far as the pic is concerned, please don't lecture me about symmetrical listening spaces and parallel surfaces yet... I know.. It's just a rough that's more use as a scaling refenence (to give y'all a bit more breathing room/creative space) and I've done "those drawings" but again, was not even remotely happy with any of them. I know that because of the constraints I have, it's going to, at best, be a real compromise but.. Whew... /longwindedpost. (At least it was punctuated...) So, any help that you kind, generous folk can offer in the layout department would be graciously appreciated. Regards and thanks in advance! Eric Z.

Thought I'd try to stir a bit more by putting up one of the best candidates I had done for this. Any suggestions? Comments? The control room is my main concern at this stage as I'm going to be building that out first. The console is to scale and It's a bit tight in there but.. There's a post girder keeping me from going a bit more diagonal in that space (at 6'2 clearance no less), not to mention the stairs. I still get natural light coming in from a hopper window (won't give that up). Mains will be sofit mounted. Usual treatments to the walls/ceilings. Was hoping to do sort of an inside-out wall trick for the ceiling to get some diffusion action happening there (floating the "ceiling" on the runners). The tracking room is going to pretty much get a floating ceiling, have concrete block walls with movable attenuation and fixed bass-trapping (compliments of the radon system piping over to the left side of things). The "drum room" is of a "movable wall" construction that'll provide some "minimal" insulation from the rest of the room. That way I can re-configure that space should I need to. If there's enough interest (since I'm just about ready to start construction - some things won't change so..), I'll post pics of the process... Let me know!!! Eric Z.

Sorry for the late reply - I've been crook - just recovering now. :) How about this approach?? cheers john

Hey there John! Just about gave up hope!. Sorry to hear bout your 'bout and glad to hear that you're on the mend. :twisted: Thanks! Your layout is pretty interesting and I like it since it gives me quite a bit of play in the tracking space. I just have one little problem with it which is that I can't move that doorway on the right (it's already there BTW). The inner frame is the actual 12" block foundation. The outside block is a frame for a poured concrete porch. The center block between the 2 narrow areas is unfortunately load bearing for the porch. So, punching out the new "doorway" and just replacing the block in the current "doorway" would cause some interesting weight distribution problems on a porch that's already thinking about dropping down iinto the ground (just kidding.. it's not that bad but cracking - I'm in the process of fixing that as well due to a small leak :( ). I'd also have to get rid of the window for the same reasons (though I'd dig having it!!). The "other" (yes, I did say one - so I lied... ;-) ) is that the miximg position is oriented about 90 degrees to the main tracking space and that makes it a bit tougher to have constant eye contact with that area without ending up with a crick in the neck (though it gives me TONS more visibility into the spaces!!). It's what I meant about "tangental to the tracking room". Working in that kind of layout (I have recently BTW), kind of "wierds me out" cause I'm right oriented, and I can't see how to shift it around without making a mess of the whole lot! Im really interested in hearing your thoughts about those 2 things and (oh there was a thrid - how come things always come in threes???), where do you think an optimal space would be for a sofit to fit in a Widebody A80 2" and a mastering deck in the control room? Thanks so much and regards, Eric Z. BTW, let me know what you think an appropriate "donation" would be. :wink: so I can make that happen.

well - just go with the door - as you were already doing. You probably could put a window next to it but it would require major surgery. I'd put the multitrack in the bottom right corner of the control room - provided you have a remote :) It doesn't take long to get used to looking sideways, if you have three booths around you you'll end up being happy whatever the direction. :) you will get used to it mate :) - the added width and size to your control room, better view to all rooms and ease of access to both studio and control room are the main benefits of my plan IMO. cheers john

Thanks again! I'll play around with that for a bit and see what happens ;-). Really appreciate you help on this! I've really been trying pretty hard to get that mixing position where my "brain" needs it. Nothing seems to fit right when I do so.... :roll: I'll post the new plan that uses your suggestions for final comments in a bit. Then comes the fun part! If it's not too much bandwidth for you folks, I'll post a log of the build process. Warm regards to all (especially John for his "putting up with me"!). Eric Z.

Hi John et al! I did a bit of looking into that layout and though I really like having the "wrap around" rooms, it really won't work given the space and other constraints that I have (as far as I can tell). No matter what I do, I just can't work the control room dimensions out given the main beam and lolly colums that are placed in the LOUSIEST places. Moving them is not an option cause the town will make my life miserable and that's reason enough not to do it. :roll: Again, my console is about 11 feet long, I need to have isolated machine space, A/C and shop space considerations, ..., So I have another idea for a layout and was wondering how that looks to y'all?

That looks OK to me Eric - it does solve the pole problem and you can fit you console in there - the only slight problem is the narrowness of the control room front to back, otherwise it all seems to fit well. cheers john

Thanks John! I think between the narrowness and 7 foot ceiling height, I'll have my hands full making that control room "just right"!!! 8) Hope the "donation" found its way to you! BTW, if anyone's interested, I'll keep a log going here (with pics). Regards! Eric Z.

Yes - thanks Eric - have you considered swapping the iso booth with the workshop?? cheers John

Yup. Did think about it but the nice thing about that localtion for the Iso booth is it's surrounded by 12" and 8" concrete block that's surrounded by dirt and covered with a 6" concrete porch on top.. Be a little tough to replicate that and get the LF attenuation without having to build some massive walls/celilings. I've had a full stack in that space and couldn't hear it outside. :D It's a good thought though cause that "shop" is significantly less claustrophobic. I may swap them anyway and try figure something about having an amp iso somewhere. Any thoughts (something cheap to do would be prefered)? Thanks, Eric