basement music room

I have been reading posts on this site for a few weeks but am still not sure how to proceed with converting a former darkroom(gone digital) to a music recording and jamming space. My main goal is to try and make this 10' X 12' space soundproof enough so I don't bother my tenant who lives on the first floor of this 1910 duplex directly above the basement. I have many instruments but am primarily concerned with trapset sounds rattleing the space. I previously built two walls(2x4, layer of 5/8 on each side, no insulation) and used one outside( poured concrete with pegboard interior on 2x2 studs) and one old laundry room wall(pine sheathing on darkroom side, 2x4 stds with plaster lathe opposite, no insulation) to make my original darkroom space. I have installed 2" 703 in ceiling and have added small 2"x2" chunks slightly suspended from 3" screws with rubber grommets to suspend 2x2's from to fur out the floor joists below a few asbestos covered radiator lines that were hanging below the joists. I then planned to ad RC channels to thes 2x2's and then sheet rock. The question I now have is what is necessary to make this ceiling and room soundproof enough to play drums and whatever else and not disturb my tenant who runs a business up there? I realize low end is hard to totally kill but is it possible to get close with 2 layers of roc on the RC ordo I need some GAF triply between them or does the RC cause problems with lack of stiffness which I have read is good for canceling lowend. Also plan to acoustic cauld the seams between walls and ceiling and add something to hollow core dore out to rest of basement which makes me wonder if sound traveling out to other parts of basement will than go up after traveling horizontally. In other words how essential is it to double up the sheet rock on the outside of the walls and should I use RC on these? Can a hollow core door be made soundproof enough with weather stripping and mass attached to each side. Oh yeah, also wondered if it was worth taking down a layer of roc on uninsullated walls and insulating. wouldn't be that hard but if it aint gonna matter why bother. I think I'll stop and see if can get some answers. eric

Eric, drums are a bear to control; in a small room, even moreso. What's your available headroom in there; can you afford to lose 10-12 inches and still live with it? Because about the only sure way to kill drums enough to not bother neighbors is a completely floated room, and the floor of it needs to be a floated concrete slab of at least 3-4 inches over at least 4" air space, which is filled with rockwool for damping. Then, your inner walls are built on that slab and a ceiling is either supported on top of those walls, or suspended BETWEEN those walls, and caulked tightly. Doors would need to be heavy, solid, and sealed. Otherwise, you will leak sound into the surrounding room which will then vibrate the structure, which will transmit to other parts of the building and re-radiate into other rooms. This is especially true of bass drum and low tom's. This degree of isolation is doable, but only if you're serious and don't take shortcuts... Steve

I can deal with loosing headroom. I think I am bring the ceiling downabout 5" from about 8' with 2 sets of 2x2's needed to clear radiator pipes plus RC plus shtrck. I'm not attaching to walls just planning to acoustic caulk the gap I leave when rocking. Question is, do I need to use RC on ceiling or would more rigid construction with 2 layers rock or a layer of rubber roll roofing between be better. Also, hohw important is the basement floor in this equation. It is a concrete slab and I was considering putting a layer of cork floor I have left over from another project down. Also, wondering what I need to do specifically to the 2 sheetrocked walls. Peal off outside surface(rather easy to do since it is only 4 peices) and insulate with 703 or roll fiberglass and then put layer back on and then RC and then 5/8 rock. Would appreciate if someone could answer these specific questions. Thanks eric

The concrete floor will transmit a lot of sound into structure (and thence into other rooms/floors) if it is allowed to be in direct contact with (or hard flooring for that matter) the sound field; that's why I mentioned the floated concrete slab. Your walls should all be one form or another of a mass-air-mass structure; so if there is wallboard on the OUTside of a stud frame, then that frame should be filled with insulation, and either resilient mounts with two layers of wallboard or (better) separate frames resting on the floated slab, with two layers of wallboard on those frames. The idea in all directions is that you have mass, then air/insulation, then mass; nothing more, nothing less. The more air/insulation space, the better; the more mass, the better. Different masses for inner and outer leaf helps avoid a common resonance in both, which would pass one particular frequency easier than others. So, if there is already wallboard on the inside of your studs and the outside is fixed, you can remove the wallboard (if you do it carefully along the stud lines this can be re-used to beef up the OUTER layer some; just cut the old board into strips that will fit between studs, and put a light bead of construction adhesive along the edge next to each stud and press in place. This will increase the mass of the OUTER leaf without having to remove that wallboard also. Then, if there's room you can put up a separate inner frame with insulation filling the entire gap, and you won't need resilient mounts for the inner two layers of wallboard because of the separate frames. These frames can be either wood or steel; steel is available in narrower widths than 2x4's, so might be a better choice. Since this wall would NOT be load bearing, all you'd need is some rubber-mounted sway bracing at the tops of the wall; then, your ceiling could go on resilient channel (If necessary, you can use the extra wallboard against the subfloor above for more mass in that leaf) - you would end up with the mass of the upper floor + wallboard glued at edges ONLY, then insulation fill, then resilient channel or RSIC clips and hat channel, then two layers of 5/8 wallboard suspended INSIDE your inner walls and caulked. I think that cover it; if not, you know where to find me :) Steve

I don't want to rip the wall board off the inside of the space because its nicely sealed(mud and paint) and I dont want the room any smaller but if I take it off the outsiide I assume I would need to make another outer frame isolated from the inner, insulate and then use the old wallbrd and glue on another sheet of board for mass. Is this correct? Will cork flooring-click together with 2 layers of cork on a substrate-isolate the floor enough? I also assume the outside cement wall will be fine-not transmit sound and be deadened enoughwith peg board cover already there so as not to be to reflective. Thanks for the feed back. I think I'm close to figuring it out just want to be sure I don't end up wasting time doing it incorrectly the first time eric

Yeah, what you need to end up with for acceptable drum isolation is a double framed wall; how you get there depends on what you already have, and (as you mentioned) what you're willing to do. One thing to be careful of, though, is possible sources of flanking around your double wall construction; the floor, ceiling, and all walls need to be decoupled inner from outer leaf EVERYWHERE, or you get flanking through any hard connections via framing, etc. So, if you change your OUTER leaf as you mentioned, you may run into problems getting your INNER leaf separated from structure. This will limit your isolation seriously, to the point of NOT isolating the drums effectively. I know very few situations are "ideal", but I need to reiterate what the ideal condition is so you'll know if you can get there or not, and what obstacles are in the way - A true room-in-room setup has a heavy, floated floor that is not in hard contact with ANYTHING around it; inner wall frames/wallboard are then built on top of this, making sure (with rubber isolated sway brackets) that no part of these inner walls comes in hard contact with the outer walls, which also need to have only ONE side paneled. Then, the inner ceiling mass for this room can either be hard fastened to joists resting on these inner walls, or it can be suspended resiliently from the outer ceiling framework using Resilient Channel, special RSIC-1 clips and hat channel, or something like Kineticsnoise.com's special isolating suspension mounts. The final goal is to have two masses separated by insulated air gaps COMPLETELY surrounding the space to be isolated; the sound should have to pass through two separated masses in order to get to where you don't want it, no matter which direction. The heavier these masses, the better isolation; the wider the insulated air gap, the better isolation; and the mass leaves need to be damped by having insulation pressing lightly against the inner surface for best results from any given combination of materials. I've seen tests of REALLY good, heavy double concrete walls where you literally could not hear a pistol shot through the wall; then, one side was core-drilled and a single pencil wedged lengthwise between the two leaves of concrete; the hole was then filled with mortar and let set - after that, just loud conversation was easily heard through the wall. The point of that last was to illustrate just how important it is for ALL paths for flanking to be eliminated. Your outside concrete wall, if sound isn't isolated from it, will transmit sounds that hit it into the rest of the structure; then, any part of that structure (framing, or anything NOT decoupled) will radiate that sound back into other rooms, even other floors. Here's a link on flanking, just so you can check it out for yourself - http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/irc/fulltext/rr103/rr103.pdf If you have any way of either taking a few pix or doing a drawing of what is already there and what you propose to change, it would help discussion quite a bit... Steve

I've been rethinking the problems involved in making this room as issolated as posssible and your reply make me rethink it again. Thanks. I guess I must definitely do more than I thought about the cement srfaces, especially after reading much of that paper on flanking. Thanks again. I think I am dealing with the ceiling fairly well all tho I am now planning on a couple of layers of wallbrd directly on the underside of the subfloor up between the joists and then sticking all the 703 back up. Than I am a bit unsure: do I put up RC and 2 layers of wallbrd or is a more rigid surface better to reduce the lower frequency, just straight brd. 2 layers? I've also decided to do all my additional layers on the inside of the room even tho I'll be reducing the room size (don't have to mess up the basement outside that space this way). I figured with a rotozip I could buzz the sheetrock into sections right between each stud and slam each piece int he space with construction adhesive(or use acoustic?) then build another wall isolated from the outer one( not sure how should isolate these two wall from each other, I'm sure they shouldn't go all the way up to the floor joists above as the outer ones do.) Metal studs best I think I'v e read. Than some insulation( is cheap OC fiberglass roll stuff sufficient?) and than 1 or 2 layers of rock( RC or no RC?)? Is floating cork floor sufficient for cement covering or does it need to have something else under it like a layer of GAF triply? And lastly what about the pegboard covered outer cement foundation walls? Do I need to put some wallbrd over that with some triply possibly. I don't really want to build it out with another stud wall but if it needs it I guess it wouldnt be to hard except its a bay window wall so its not so straight forward to frame as a stait wall. I think I've asked enough for the moment. And its time to sleep. thanks alot for all the advice Steve. I've adjusted by time frame for accomplishing soundproofness to this space after realizing its gonna take alot more work. Whenever its done its done and then I can make a ruckus day or night. Hopefully. Or maybe I should just make my unattache gargage a music space except here in Minnesota it would take a lot of energy to make it warm. eric

Sorry about the delay, life's been even more "interesting" than usual lately - First, you definitely want RC under the double layer; this will be true on any ceiling or wall except the hard concrete, where you'd want more air space before using wallboard (like narrow steel studs with insulation) The Rotozip plan is a good one (if you have a good shop vac :=), just use a bead of construction adhesive around the perimeters of the drywall "inserts", and if you're nervous about them falling (I probably would be) rip some 1x1 cleat material and fasten cleats under the second layer of wallboard, screwed into the sides of the joists. That way, there's no way the stuff can separate from the subfloor and create a third leaf after it's all closed up. Metal studs are fine, and they should NOT have firm contact with ceiling joists - you can buy or build sway brackets for the tops so they don't contact the outer wall OR the joists directly - here's one suggestion I gave Aaron for his that you may be able to apply - http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 0176#10176 RC is only needed if both sides of the SAME frame have wallboard (or mass) like a ceiling, or a single framed wall - when there is a separate frame, no RC is necessary. Your floor will depend on how much iso you need; drums are difficult, so would need a fully floated high-mass floor to be sure. On the concrete walls, one test would be to put a LOUD boombox upstairs and listen to the wall with either a stethoscope or a drinking glass between the wall and your ear; if you can hear ANYTHING, you have flanking thru that wall and it will need to be decoupled, RC under wallboard is minimum; separate frame is better, and ALWAYS insulation. BTW, if you can the 3 PCF fiberglass (703) or rockwool will help a few dB over standard house stuff. Late for work, hope this helped... Steve

its been a while since I posted but I'm still trying to accomplish soundproof basement. Need to know how to add mass to subfloor inbetween floor joists in basemennt ceiling. is it necessary to get wallboard pieces flat up against underside of subfloor? if nails from flooring on surface above stick down can I just pound the wallboard up into or use construction adhesive or both? I assume u don't want air between the two surfaces.

Yes, the layers of gypsum need to be firmly against the subfloor with no air gaps - one way to do this is to nip off the nails and grind smooth - another is to sharpen the tips of the nails so they will push into the wallboard easier - hopefully the nails will only be a problem for the first layer you add between the joists. If you use construction adhesive, it needs to be fairly runny - most are not. Too stiff a bead and it won’t let you squish the inserts firmly enough against the subfloor. Probably a better way is to use drywall joint compound; if the subfloor is older, plank type construction it will probably have gaps. If so, these should be filled with joint compound and smoothed with a taping knife before adding the wallboard inserts. Then, you would use fairly thin compound in a 1 to 2 inch stripe along the edge of each joists, leaving the REST of the insert NOT glued - you can glue two layers up at the same time, then fasten them firmly in place by using long 1x2 cleats held firmly against the edges of the wallboard while nailing or screwing the cleats in place. This operation will probably take at least one helper, in order to keep the inserts from pulling away from the subfloor while you're putting the cleats in place. Once you’ve finished that part, you need to caulk where the cleats meet the joist and where they meet the wallboard inserts - this needs to be a hermetic seal. Doing it that way with the cleats, even if the joint compound should fail in a few years the cleats will keep the extra wallboard from falling down into the ceiling insulation, causing a triple-leaf effect and hurting your low frequency isolation… Steve

Thanks much Steve. One more question, at least for the moment. Is it a problem if you screw this wall board into the subfloor. I assume it must cause more transmission or is it a problem of possibly pushing up on the hardwood floor above? If you could be sure you weren't damaging the floor above the subfloor would screws be fine instead of cleats as long as you used some joint compund between the layers or acoustic caulk. Thanks again and have a good Thanksgiving. Hopefully I'll get a chance to work on this while everyone passes out from turkey chemicals. eric

Running screws up into the subfloor through the gypsum layers will worsen the isolation a few dB, as does any metal penetration through multiple layers in a wall or ceiling - this is why the cleats instead. You could probably get away with not using the cleats if you were sure that whatever adhesive you used along the edges (only) of the gypsum inserts would hold indefinitely; I personally don't feel that's a good idea, because if the adhesive lets go after you've already finished the ceiling, what will happen is that the gypsum inserts could end up dropping down in the cavity, causing squashed insulation and a 3-leaf barrier, all of which could cost you more than 10 dB of isolation... Steve

Steve, I attempted to put drywall compound into spaces between old subfloor and it seemed sort of futile(mud mostly wanted to follow gravity) so i thought i'd try some acoustic caulk to fill the gaps but that was'nt working to well either although maybe i should give it another try with the beed size from my caulk tube adjusted. I have a roll of GAF Triply that i got for real cheap at the local HD and I wondering if using that for a layer over or under a layer of wall board would be any good in the ceiling or walls or maybe oveer the concrete floor before i add some wood to make an air space there. Proceeding incredibly slow with this basement conversion and starting to wonder if it will even be isolated enough when I or if I ever finish. Itching to make some amount of noise at night when the family is asleep. What about spray foam insulation for some of the void sealing? Not enough mass? I wake up in the middle of the night quite often wondering how I can get bits and pieces of this accomplished or how to solve the next little problem like what to use for isolation under the plates of my interior metal stud walls. Whatever feedback you give is greatly appreciated. eric

Eric, did you get my answer before the worm hit? If not, ask and I'll try to regurgitate it, I'd already wiped it from my CF card I use for this... Steve

I got your reply, thanks and buttering the toast works quite well. I probably will have a few new questions when I finish the ceiling. eric

Steve, got the wallboard installed between the joists with a layer of joint compound filling gaps between it and the subfloor. used a right angle grinder with a diamond wheel to buzzz off all the nails in the way. I'm ready to put my 703 up and then rc and 2 layers of brd, 5/8 and 1/2 but i don't know quite how to close up the ends of my spaces between the joists, one end finishes at the outside cement foundation and the other above the walls where my room ends before opening into the rest of the basement. Don't want flanking of course but dont know quite the best way to stop transmission to the foundation at one end and out to the rest of the basement at the other. Also wondering if it matters which brd goes up first oon the ceiling 5/8 or 1/2 or does it matter and how critical is it for t he 703 to be resting on this mass. there are firring strips that keep it away from the board at intervals but also help it stay up.

Gotta hit the hay for now, can you do a sketch or pic or both? Thanks... Steve

Steve, Here is a shot of the ceiling looking at the space above the foundation wall. How should I finish this before the ceiling wall board goes up? The other shot is of the space above the interior wall which is open to the rest of the basement. How do I deal with this? I also have one wall which is plaster/lathe on the outside of the space and tongue and groove 3/4" sheathing on the inside. Should I pull this sheathing off so I only have one air space before building a 2x2 steel stud wall in front of it and then covering with wall board?

Bad week, sorry for the delay; I need to ask more questions based on the pix before I can answer - What's the perf board and can it come down? unless it's getting two layers of wallboard DIRECTLY against it, it will cause some 3-leaf problems (worse LF TL) Also, is that the window you were thinking about building a wall to the inside of, possibly with another window in the new wall? Can't tell by the pix, are those furring strips really held up with NAILS? Also, same question on the blocks above the furring strips - if so, do you REALLY want multiple 85-pound sheets of wallboard over your head hoping nails won't pull out? ON the pic of the door, it looks as though you're getting pretty close to the top of the door with your ceiling framing; will you have enough space to put 1/2" RC and 1-1/4" of wallboard, and still clear the door? As to flanking, any inner wall frames should NOT contact the upper joists but have a small gap (1/4" to 1/2") - any position control for these frames will need to be done with decouple sway braces. If you don't want to spend a lot on these, check Aaron's floating floor thread (REFERENCE section link) - I posted some drawings of possibilities, and Aaron built one and took pix, it's here http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... &start=210 Sketch is on this page - http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... &start=165 I also have one wall which is plaster/lathe on the outside of the space and tongue and groove 3/4" sheathing on the inside. Should I pull this sheathing off so I only have one air space before building a 2x2 steel stud wall in front of it and then covering with wall board? Yes, otherwise you'll lose LF performance of the wall. For your flanking questions - if an inner wall frame has hard contact with ceiling joists, then you need RC or RSIC clips/hat channel inside before the wallboard layers; if your wall has resilient sway bracing instead, and NO hard contact with struture, then no resilient wallboard mounts are necessary. In either case, I would put up your WALL layers first; then, hang your wallboard layers on RC, suspended INSIDE the inner wallboard with a 1/4" gap around the perimeter - use the methods outlined in the COMPLETE SECTION sticky, a link within the REFERENCE section at the top of the page - do your first layer on the ceiling, caulk, add the second layer, caulk, finger form the caulk on the inner layer so you can put up inside corner beading, then finish normally. Doing the ceilings this way, you will get minimum flanking between rooms because the ceiling layers are not continuous; the inner ceiling layers, the inner wall layers, and your caulk, make up a continuous mass layer which keeps flanking noise from impinging on the rest of structure (assuming you either have sway-mounted inner frames OR RC mounted wallboard.) HTH... Steve

The peg board stuff can come down but I was thinking since it had holes it wouldn't be a leaf but I can see that it still is a leaf layer and must go if I am building a wall inside of it. I wasn't planning on a window in the new wall in front of the window but hadn't really figured that out. Everything is screwed up to the ceiling with 3" screws, furring strips and blocks which are sort of floating on screws with rubber bushings. I am not concerned about the strength of these elements. I plan on some sort of sway braces on the inner walls and willl look at Aaron's thread. Thanks again, I'll probably have new questions after I get a little further. May have resolved some of the soundproofing problems by deciding to give my tenant living above this basement space notice for May. I still plan on trying to make this as quiet as possible but perfection is not necessary if we take over our downstairs unit and make it a ping pong room as we may well do. eric

Steve, Still don't know how to finish off the space I posted fotos of on Jan 17 post. This is the extension of the space that will have 2 layers of wall board on RC. Also have been trying to find a thread on how to finish off the wall around the basement window which I am frame out with a steel stud wall. Also I plan to add mdf to the inside and outside of my current hollow core door but dont quite know how to finish the inner steel stud wall at the door opening which is on the original outer door. If this doesn't make sense let me know and I'll send you fotos or drawings. I have a 2x2 floor almost done just have to insulate and add epdm underneath and mdf on top. then i'll be ready to put my steel stud walls on that with some pink sill seal between and some homemade sway braces to stabilize the top. This basement is extremely dry so I'm not concerned about any moisture problems on the floor and plan to just have insulation filling the space completely between the concrete and the mdf. Does all of this sound reasonable? eric

Had a good start and hit the wrong (*^^% key, dammit... Current pix of what's in place on the outside wall will help, plus I've learned more about steel studs lately - check this out http://www.buildingscience.com/resource ... novate.pdf specifically page 36, where the following is found - "Metal Studs This type of stud is 300 times more conductive than wood studs. They are prone to condensation and ghosting. Metal studs should never be used with cavity insulation because it makes them even colder. If metal studs are used they should be limited to interior walls or to the interior of rigid insulation assemblies. Metal studs should never be used below grade unless they are separated from slabs with thermal breaks (“sill gasket”) and separated from foundation perimeter with rigid insulation. Below-Grade Walls The main problem with below grade walls comes during the summer when warm moist air comes in contact with basement cold surfaces (see Figure 27). Basement walls should be insulated with non-water sensitive insulation that prevents interior air from contacting cold basement surfaces. The best insulations to use are foam based and vapor semi-permeable. Vapor semi-permeable materials allow the basement wall assemblies to dry to the interior. No interior vapor barriers should be installed in basements – ever – because they trap moisture inside the assemblies. One of the worst assemblies for basement walls from the perspective of mold and moisture problems is a foundation wall that is internally framed and insulated with fiberglass cavity insulation and covered with a plastic vapor barrier. Metal studs only further aggravate the problem. Air gets in behind the framing and condenses on the cold surfaces. Alternatively, moisture from the foundation enters the internal framing. The moisture is trapped within the foundation assembly by the vapor barrier and deterioration occurs. All bottom plates of below grade frame walls should be thermally isolated from basement floor slabs with thermal breaks. Commonly available “sill gasket” (3/8 - inch thick foam – 31/2-inches wide) is an excellent thermal break under bottom plates." Please read that PDF carefully before deciding to use insulated steel stud framing on your outside half-wall... Steve

Steve, I already have made most of my walls but fortunately I believe my use of steel is not problematic although it seems as the issues in this article have not come up before in anything I could find discussed on the site. These are interior walls which will be sitting on sill sealer and on the wooden floating floor. The insulation will not touch the exterior walls so I don't think moisture will be a problem. Beyond these issues I am still trying to figure out how to deal with these specific areas: how to isolate the space in the ceiling, between the floor joist, to reduce transmission of sound beyond the walls of the room? trying to find a thread on how to finish off the basement window which will be framed in by a steel stud wall. Also I plan to add mdf to the inside and outside of my current hollow core door but dont quite know how to finish the inner steel stud wall at the door opening which is on the original outer door. If this doesn't make sense let me know and I'll send you fotos or drawings

Yeah, I'm not sure why but I'm just not seeing what you're trying to do; so any diagrams, pix, etc, would help. Maybe I should shoot for more than 4 hours sleep a night/day for a while :?

I'll try to be more explicit with some better fotos or something. Get some sleep man. eric