Design ideas for space constraints?

Hi all, I'm working on building a home studio in my basement. The space I have to work with is like an inverted L shape, more like a number 7 in this case. The bottom or longer part of the L is about 11' wide x 14' long, and the upper part of the L, the short part, is about 9' long x 6' wide. I almost would rather not use the other part of the L and stick with the 11x14 room. The door into the room is on the bottom left of the L shape. Any ideas here as far as layout? I don't think I need a separate room, I was planning on doing everything in the same room, playing, recording and monitoring. Thanks for your time. Sincerely, Andrew Gray, Fairbanks, Alaska 8)

Hi Andrew - any chance of a drawing?? you can download a trial version of smartdraw form http://www.smartdraw.com cheers john

John, I actually have Smart Draw, and here is a crude drawing of the space I'm working with. Thanks! Andrew

:? I guess I'm just not sure if this can be done. I want to do everything regarding playing, monitoring, recording, mixing, etc. in one room. I have a computer based recording system, and I am the artist and the recording engineer all in one. The layout seems like it'd be tricky, so I have absolutely no ideas. I'm angling the walls within the existing walls, and also angling the ceiling to break up any parallelism. Any ideas for a layout? I play mostly guitar and record vocals, and I'd like the room for others to play with me in there if possible. Hmmmm.... Any help you could offer John would be most appreciated! Thanks, Andrew

ah - that's better -so do you want to use the whole space or just the right section. You appear to have enough room for maybe a small booth to stick an amp into or put vocals, or is all the work going to be your own?? cheers john

John, I'd prefer to use just the right section, but I'm open to using the other section as well. I will be doing all the music, yes, with maybe someone else singing vocals from time to time... Any ideas? Thanks, Andrew

something like this?/ cheers john

Hmmm. I think that might take up too much of the space. What I didn't mention is that off to the left of the other space (top left) has to be access to utilities (water pump, heater, etc.) and any room set up there on the left would get in the way of access to it. Maybe I'll wait until I build my addition on my house, then I'll make a bigger and more ideal studio space...I could turn the room right now into a makeshift studio. Unless I can constrain it all to the right side of the space (the 11 x 14 space), I'll probably scrap my idea. Any suggestions how to do it in just the right side space? Thanks so much for your time, it is invaluable! Andrew

Any suggestions how to do it in just the right side space?

sure. make it smaller. cheers john

John, Do the side walls *have* to be so angled? I've been reading a lot about acoustics and design building, and have read that 1' out for every 10' of length will eliminate any standing waves. Would that work, and the rest be corrected with other measures? Otherwise I end up working in a closet. Thanks, Andrew

Also, John, do you have any libraries for Smart Draw you use for the workstation images, or did you make those? You did a neat angled desk that I don't see anywhere in Smart Draw...

1:10 will give a wall at 5.7 degrees. I have to say thet from my experience you need around 12 degrees to stop standing waves. If you made each wall 1:10 you'd be OK. I don't have those as libraries, I just copy and paste. I'll figure a way to get them to you. :) cheers john

Hey John we have been discussing my FINAL resting place for as studio. I am working the numbers to get the land and put the shell up so we can do this Major studio (This will be total fun) I should have all things resolved by September so we can start to move forward. But.... In the meantime I like the design for this CR. As you recall I am a mixer so I like a controlled sound IN the room. I have a room that is exactly the size of this one. And I just got another project to mix, so I will build something like this over the next 2 weeks. LOL WHat a trip.. build a room just to mix 1 project (AMEN!!!!) AS I am interested in GOOD bass trapping and control of standing wave are there any alterations to this plan I should consider? Keep in mind that the rear wall of my spot has a small opening to another room. (Can't be moved, load bearing wall. And I am not tearing out, just adding to. I can use some of that room for a bass trap cavity. Any ideas???? Bryan Giles Realize, no walls will move I am just building my room in this room. Thanks. AS soon as I get pricing on the lad (200'x120') I wll let you know cuz at that point we should be 3 months from completion. Also, this place has a 9' ceiling, Any suggestions for treating the ceiling?? Thanks in advance. I am looking forward to the fun we are gonna have.

AS I am interested in GOOD bass trapping and control of standing wave are there any alterations to this plan I should consider?

Bryan- For rooms like this there are two major factors. The angled walls not only stop the standing waves they direct the sound down the room to the rear wall. The direct sound from each speaker (remember the highmids up are coming directionaly from the speaker at around 30 degrees spread) is going to pass you, hit the adjacent wall and reflect back. The idea is for it not to come back at you as a first reflection, but to pass you and get sucked up in the rear wall which is the second major factor. You don't want short early reflections coming at you from the rear because it confuses the image you are hearing from the speakers. Hey - I'm looking forward to coming to the US, fingers crossed :):) cheers john

Thanks John. I started framing today. The only mod I made was to do the angled back wall I have seen in outher plans sorta lkike a very wide W. I did so at a 6 degree angle from each rear side wall corner to make up that back wall. I am stuffing all the trangle walls with R-25 on the studio side wall and I framed a wall inside the room between the studio wall and existing wall. I am stuffing R-13 in there. I am planning on doing the slats on that rear wall. Will it be a major deal to concern myself with the rear side walls as far as slats are concerned? Hope not, not trying to spend a ton for a temp studio. Just need my projects coming out better than now.

One last Question On my front side walls should I angle each wall 6 degrees or 12 degrees. Bryan

John Sayers wrote:

Bryan- For rooms like this there are two major factors. The angled walls not only stop the standing waves they direct the sound down the room to the rear wall. cheers john

John, :wink: You shouldn't say that anymore: Standing waves are room modes and room modes are standing waves. The shape of a room can change the shape of a standing wave pattern, but can't get the room modes disappear. Any room shape, angled walls or not has its own standing wave pattern (modal behavior). Even an official reverberation room (ca 200 m^3 to more), without having ANY parallel walls/floor/ceiling and additionally lots of large bended diffusers has its modes. In those lower frequencies up to 12 measurements with 6 different microphone positions and two different source positions must average this soundfield distorted by modal behavior (often substituted by rotating microphones). This modal behavior is the main cause, that they have a lower cutoff frequency arround 100 Hz. The only way to get rid of room modes is: a) Absorb them b) Not excite them by shifting source to the nodes. In a room with angled walls the frequency of the modes, will remain about equal than in a rectangular room with ca same floor surface (using averaged x, y, z axis measures). Only the resulting pattern can be more irregular spaced. But they are there as explicit as in a rectangular space. Exact behavior and pattern can be calculated with FEM software (not with analytic formulae as in rectangular spaces). Angling wall has mainly effect on geometric acoustics, which is a gradual thing roughly from 2 to 5 times the Schroeder frequency and higher. See also my message about the rounded corners room somewhere. http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=339 Look at: http://ceae.colorado.edu/~muehleis/clas ... waves.html see comment at heading: Important Note: Non parallel walls. See also at: http://home.tir.com/~ms/roomacoustics/r ... stics.html Kind regards Eric

So Eric, In Laymens terms..... What does that mean to me? Bryan

Bryan, That you still can do as John suggests, he certainly has the practical experience. I'm only setting the physics straigth, meaning your room treatment has to take care of the room modes (and speaker position in very specific cases can help out) and it's not the shape of the room. Also angled wall can disrupt this mode pattern, which depending in the mic position can be positive but also negative. Go with John's experience. I'meant the message in fact for him in order to take this into account. One can do this on experience, or one can simulate such fields in FEM software (Finite Element Method). The first has proven its value too. Best regards Eric

Ok, I understand your indication of the physics. This happens to be a Mix room so microphone placement is not an issue. Your information gave me pause to inquire as to the effects of the modes which I understand do not disappear, just chnage, with regards to my mixing and not having issues with standing waves smearing the imaging I see when mixing. If you could comment with relation to those needs that is appreciated however if your physics data has no audible bearing on my Real World Application, please let me know that as well. This is a very important issue with me at this time as Mixing is my Main source of income. So once again in Laymens terms what effect does that have on what I am doing. (I am looking for a simple answer not one That will fly over my head.) I am a mix engineer not an acoustician nor do I desire to become knowledgeable in this area. So in the words of many a great man. KIS (Keep it Simple) Bryan Giles

Hello Brian, I thougth I made that clear by saying: .....That you still can do as John suggests, he certainly has the practical experience........ and ......Go with John's experience....... and ..... One can do this on experience ..... The first has proven its value too. and ..... I'meant the message in fact for him in order to take this into account. .... I am who I am, and my background is physics specialized towards acoustics. I did not want to correct any advise John gave, just hint him to take the points I stated into acount. Best regards Eric PS: I don't like your demanding, pushy and disrespectful tone. What I did/shared is for free to help. Everybody has rights but duties are the rights of others.

Sorry if I offended you. It was not my intent. Because of the technical nature of your reply to me it made me hesitant and cautious. As a meticulous Mix Engineer I have an obligation to challenge eveything and test everything. I was in no wise intending disrespect. I just need concrete answers. Nothing left to the imagination. We live in a society that encourages freedom of speech and freedom of expression of opinions. If that offended you, I again apologize. Bryan Giles BTW when I inquired of you I was very specific in requesting, "please put it in laymens terms". Hence why I became very aggressive in my desire to seek an answer. And remember... Let it roll off like water on a ducks back. Your opinions and knowledge are greatly respected in this forum and I respect them very much as well. Thanks for reading.

Hello Brian, It's Ok let's forget it. On your original request: .....please put it in laymens terms.... I responded: .......Bryan, That you still can do as John suggests, he certainly has the practical experience. I'm only setting the physics straigth,........ I hadn't checked the whole thread, since I'm certain that John did and does a perfect John and is very experienced. Therefore I clearly directed my first response to John. I think it can be important that John should know that he can't count on the angled walls to solve the modal behavior. Since probably the modal behavior is controlled by absorption anyhow, I left it up to John to judge that. And I'm 10^6% certain if John believes he must redirect his advice a bit that he will. So I limit my contributions to principle things and basics (also time consuming), which I hope can indirectly be of help. Anyhow thanks for your nice words. Best regards Eric

Hi Eric - I understand exactly what you are saying and you are right - I shouldn't say it....... but I suppose, like Bryan, I'm trying to keep it simple. I am recommending angleing the walls to direct the sound to the rearwall where it should be absorbed and to stop side reflections disturbing the imaging. cheers john

Hello John, Thanks. Still, I believe it's important to emphasize for readers, that you can't direct the room mode frequencies (which can be more powerful than traveling waves). They are there or they aren't. They don't go anywhere. There are as static as can be (therfore called standing waves). Regards Eric