New roof construction

The building is around 5,000 sq ft. Some of the floors are over each other, but the roofing is steep in places (6/12 to 16/12 pitch)! So the total roof square footage is about 60 squares (6000 sq ft). The old roof is coming off completely - the building is over 100 years old and there are 5 (count them- FIVE) layers of shingles up there. Totally illegal. Well, the building was/is an eyesight, what can I say? Have not started siding (on the studio portion) yet - removed much of the plumbing and electrical for replacement, but we can come back to that stuff later. Right now, I want to focus on this new roof, as I have just put in a request for a $25,000 loan. Here's what I'm planning on getting for 25 grand: 3/4" tongue and groove sheathing non-hardening caulk applied in the grooves 30 pound tar paper ice and water shield at the outer edge of the shallow roofing, strictly for preventing water damage due to ice dams in winter. 50 year multidimensional (fiberglas infused) shingles. Tin roof vents :roll: (! better ideas?) The plan includes another layer inside, of course - a drop ceiling with 2' of space, to contain insulation. More on that later, though. Justwant to concentrate on this outer shell (barrier). We have helicopter cops rampant here in Indianapolis! Gotta stop this copter noise grafitti from getting in. Eric

If you're planning on the outer roof being part of the sound containment shell, how are you going to vent it? Normally, the roof is only there for protection from the elements because it needs to be vented in order to prevent rot and mold - actual sound containment should be inside that, and should consist of two separate centers of mass, separated by insulated air space - check out my concept drawing here, posted on sept. 6 - http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 6760#16760 That drawing doesn't show a roof, which would be outside of the top blue mass and vented. By venting, the mass of the outer roof, while still affecting the isolation somewhat (in a negative way at some frequencies) the effect is lessened by venting and we concentrate on making two heavy mass leaves with an insulated air gap inside that roof, for our actual sound isolation or containment envelope... Steve

The very thing you mention is what I'm up against - the very thing for which I've been brainstorming for months, now. I was hoping for more time; however, Spring brought on a series of roof leaks and the time has come to prevent damage - the roof construction must begin. I will soon post some sketches of how the roof skeleton is built - and believe me, it's not your ordinary building! It was built either by Germans or Scandanavians (haven't dug up that info just yet) and the roof structure is not like any I've seen. This will certainly be a custom job. However, I believe there are some advantages in the design because of its odd construction. Just a quick explanation before I can put out the sketch: The main sanctuary (i.e. the main tracking room) is a 50' x 30' room. The ceiling starts at 13' from the floor along the long walls. The short walls are gables, rising to 26' (about 12/12 pitch) down the center of the room. Here's how the roof was constructed: 5 Large beams, 13" x 8" were made to span the short length of the room (with slight overlap, 32 ft). 2 of these were placed on the ends, one in the middle, and the other 2 spaced evenly between. 2 more large beams were placed on each of these to form 5 giant triangles. So far, nothing spectacular. Where the upper beams meet the lower, a custom clamp was made to cinch the two together. Where the two shorter beams meet at the top, another cinch clamp was made and a giant bolt fitted through, straight down the center and also through the lower beam. The bolt is about 14 ft long, 1 3/8" diameter. It is fitted underneath with a nut which is tightened, making the triangle a lone, stiff structure, all on its own. These 5 triangles are set on the walls of the building over hefty wall columns. Here is the weird part. One lone beam (50 ft in length) runs along the center of each of the upper beams, on which the actual roof rests. In other words, there is a space between the 5 triangles and the roof skeleton, which appears to have been built apart from the building structure, then set on top of two runners, one runner connecting all the upper left beams along their center, the other beam connecting all the upper right beams along their center. There are points along the peak where the roof rests, as well. Aside from this and the area where the gable sidewalls come up to meet the roof, the roof makes no other contact with the building. There is no true isolation, mind you, but the roof is still a separate (albeit very heavy) structure. I was hoping to devise a plan to incorporate some level of noise protection. As described above, I am aware of the need to ventilate. But is there an alternative method to just opening huge ports to the outside world? :idea: :?: My next planned step incorporates a 2' hermetically sealed dropped ceiling (resting on spring wire) upon which much insulation is laid. With the eaves and vents open to sound, I am trying to dream up alternatives to just leaving that space wide open. Perhaps the eaves & vents can be transformed into insulated, muffled cavities and a fan can help pull the air through. ...? Crazy, I know. Just trying to exhaust all the ideas that may be applied to the outer roof before the installers arrive.

Should have titled this thread "Old Roof Renovation".

Can you post a few digital pix of this? Much easier than visualizing from description alone, the combo of words and pix makes things a lot clearer - if you post pix, please resize them not to exceed 800 pixels wide max - I've found that jpg's do the least damage to color rendition in most cases. Definitely sounds as if you've got yerself a challenge, all right... Steve

Okay. Here's a rough of a structural triangle used on this roof. I will get another look to refresh my memory before I draw or say anything more.

Enclosed is the update. As can be seen, the actual decking is held up by a 2x4 frame which literally sets down on top of the triangles. I was wrong about the contact points on top. There are none up there. The only contacts are on a 4x6 lumber running crossways (about halfway down the structure), and at the very bottom, along the walls.

Damn!!?! You WILL understand if I move in the middle of the night and leave no forwarding address, right??? There isn't a ridge board at the peak of the outer roof frame? Where in the sketch were you considering the drop ceiling, above or below the bottom beams? So, from your description these massive triangles are about on 12 foot centers? Also, are you hoping to retain the vaulted ceilings in some way? Still thinking about that midnight relocation plan... :? Steve

That's right, no ridge! No, bud, don't you be goin' anywhere! To the credit of the designers/builders, this building has been standing here for well over 100 years. As I mentioned, it was built by European immigrants before the turn of the century, around 1885, I believe. (I pulled out a bunch of square, splintering, crooked nails when I replaced the siding.) The structure is rather solid and sure. The more recent owners have abused it with layers upon layers of shingles. There are presently about 9 tons worth of shingles on just this section of roof. Still the structure doesn't seem to care. I have spent a lot of time up there and there doesn't seem to be a single crack or stress mark in the wood, which by now, is all but petrified - no wonder. I dare not mess with the load bearing portion of any of this structure, as I see it as a genuine piece of architectural art. It mesmerizing to see how this place was built (the roof is not the only thing worth noting, but I will contain myself). Presently, inside the old sanctuary, an old fashioned drop ceiling exists (framed and nailed tiles) along the bottom edges of the triangles. This ceiling is 13 feet above the floor. From in the attic, I measured an additional 13 feet to the peak. Total height from floor to roof peak is 26 feet, and 13 along the rake walls. So with the present ceiling removed, the volume of the room is 48' x 31' x ((26' + 13') / 2) = 29,000 cu ft. With drop ceiling taking 2' out of the ceiling, I drop it down to about 26K cu. ft. With 1 ft inset inner walls and 6" raised floor, I wind up with about 22680 cu ft. This is about 20% off my original space! Crappy, but don't see how I can get by without the change. My construction intentions are somewhat along these lines: 1) From the inside, cover over the 2 x 4's with chem treated plywood (as protection from leaks, which are caulked at their seams. I would allow the gap to remain which runs from peak to rake, between the frame members, to allow ventilation. The only thing I'd have to work around are the two large 4 x 6 beams. Have even considered sticking a layer of plastic over the treated plywood, but decided a moisture barrier is not really what I want there - might stop rain from coming down, but if it also stops moisture from getting out, I could have rot problems. 2) Cover this plywood layer with 5/8" drywall. I originally considered using sheetblock between these layers, but have don't want to put the roof structure through too much stress for heft!! 3) Locating the rafters again, I would install eyelets and wire for a drop ceiling, hanging about 2 ft. down. So the dropped ceiling would take on the cathedral shape of the roof. 4) Springs are to be mounted at the bottom (or maybe top would be smarter) of the wires for the drop ceiling - I know a custom spring manufacturer. 5) Planning on using 5/8" drywall again for the dropped ceiling, using the same framework made for acoustical ceilings. I realize 5/8" the same thickness as the upper layer, but my argument is that the upper layer will be glued to the treated plywood, giving it different resonant characteristics. 6) Oversized ventilation will be installed, of course, inside this area, as well as about 1.5 ft worth of insulation. 7) The ceiling pieces will be caulked before they are laid down in attempt to make a hermetically sealed ceiling, hanging on springs. The trouble is, this design seems a bit awkward & unsound to me, because of the difficulty in getting around the lower portion of the triangular beams. I haven't figured out how I'm going to seal off the outside from the inside because of them. I want to retain as much room volume as necessary, however, even if the upper portions of these triangles are buried inside the dropped ceiling, the lower edges will have to be exposed. Yet if those beasts get a vibration in them, they will be an open conduit between the inside and outside worlds. To more directly answer your question, a 2 ft drop would also expose the top of the triangle to the floor below, as well. If I can get away with it, I really don't want to have to remove any more volume from the room than I absolutely have to. The goal is to use the facility for choral / orchestral / big band tracking, and as much space as possible will be needed. Comments/suggestions?

Just computed what the new roof is going to weigh - approximately 2.5 tons. Adding sheetblok will add about 1 ton. Adding the extra sheetrock and insulation will likely add no more than another 2.5 tons. Hmmm.... I'm thinking maybe the sheetblok would be fine, as long as I can ensure it never comes down.

Thinking... (smell the smoke?? :roll: )

- message erased - did not mean to repost the above message

Also, are you hoping to retain the vaulted ceilings in some way?

The plan includes another layer inside, of course - a drop ceiling with 2' of space, to contain insulation.

One more question. When you say "2 foot of space", where is that? Below the joists with the steel bar in it, or below the existing roof? fitZ :?

Could you fill in the ? I didn't have time to search for them in your previous posts. fitZ :)

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Hello Eric, thanks for posting that. I did go back and find the info I was looking for. I also started fooling around with some metal framing/hat channel ideas for suspending this ceiling. But then I thought I would look at some details on the net, and found this. After reading a bit, some things occured to me. This is a very HEAVY ceiling assembly. And you said the installers are coming soon. Have you applied for permits or checked the codes for the ceiling portion of this project? The reason I asked, is there are some pretty intense specs here, and it might behoove you to check into this before arbitrarily designing the suspension system and connections. It might be wise, as if anyone were to get hurt during installation, or anything else, and you don't have a permit for this, you might be opening a real big can of worms. Just a little advice, as you are asking here for ideas to finish this design before the installers come. I would seriously consider a postponement of this portion untill you get some professional engineering advice or consultation. But in case you have already submitted plans for a permit, please ignor this, however, I don't know how you could have if you don't even have your suspension design finalized yet. I would bet money that there are some kind of codes governing this in case of fire, as the wires are the only thing holding this thing up :shock: BTW, how were you fastening these to the gyp bd? And at the ceiling? I didn't see any sort of framing system or channels in your sketch? Might wanna read this section of USG metal framing/suspension specs. Maybe it will illuminate what I am saying, or at least give you some idea of the serious nature of this project. http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:g7 ... p+bd&hl=en

Hello, fitZ, Thanks for the information link. Some very valuable information, there. You make some very good points. First let me clarify my present dilemma: The installers are coming to tear out the old roof (slats and old shingles) and install new decking and shingles. That's all they're going to do for now. No fancy additions or such at this time, and everything in that plan so far meets code exactly. What I'm trying to do is look ahead and make sure I don't miss something that needs to be done during roofing that I'll wish I had taken care of when I start soundproofing. The extra stuff, including the sound barriers and added weight are things that are NOT etched in stone. And that, indeed is why I'm posting this information - to run these interior ideas by you guys and see what brainstorms result. The actual hold-up I'm experiencing is on the loan, which has to do with zoning. The street on which this building sits is zoned C4, which is commercial business zoning. The nature of the specific zoning law in this case allows both residential and businesses along this street. So in fact, my restrictions are less than if it were zoned strictly residential or strictly commercial (but of course, this confuses the banks who like to do everything by step-bystep thoughtless process). The other side of this story is that the area is known as Fountain Square. Fountain Square bloomed in the 1850's and went strong until the 1960's when a new expressway (I-70) was built, slicing Fountain Square out of the downtown area. Things went downhill fast and by the mid 70's, it was a poverty stricken drug neighborhood. In the early '80's some people got together and created an organization which zeroed in on these problems and started running the drug lords out of town. Many of these houses and apartments, known by the city to be historic, have been purchased by government grant money through this organization and auctioned off to reliable people (of presentable credit histories, etc.). Lockerbie Square, which is right next door to Fountain Square, is now one of the most expensive, ritziest places to live in Indianapolis. You cannot buy a house there for less than half a $ million. It was in worse shape than Fountain Square (although Fountain Square is much larger). There have since been born several other major organizations in the area. I am a board member of two of these organizations, and we ALL work closely with each other on community development. Our district contains historic buildings, but we have not officially entered the area into government books as "historic". And we wish it to remain this way for as long as possible, because historic construction restrictions will only serve to slow the area's growth. Until that time comes, we are all buying buildings as fast as we can afford, and bringing in others who can afford to do the same. [Don't get me wrong - I am not a wealthy guy - just doing my part and chasing my dream in the meantime.] I happened across this old church which is one of many large old buildings, suffering some level of disrepair. Perfect for me, because proper soundproofing would have required a lot of tear out on any building - so one that needed a total re-do was a perfect find. As for meeting code, the city, so far, has turned their heads while the area is coming up to par. This is somewhat unfortunate, because there ARE a few people who are doing some things they really shouldn't be. But as I happen to know many of the boardmembers who are in position to approve/disapprove these matters, I know they are favorable to the introduction of a studio Fountain Square - they are literally cheering me on. As far as being safe, I am held to my own understanding and other construction engineers (whom I do work with). In fact, my ex-wife is a construction engineer. But one thing to note, and I say this for everybody: I have learned that you can understand more about structures than the people who write the codes. This does not prevent them from shutting you down when you go above and beyond the requirements they laid down, if they do not understand what you've done. But it helps to have a lot of papers, signed by a lot of other people who also know more than the inspectors. And in this case, it also helps to have those connections - pretty darned cool, actually. In the end, as long as this stuff meets basic code - and believe me, I do have architects and inspectors involved - I feel rather confident that if I try to install something I shouldn't, one of these guys/gals will let me know. After that, by the time this area does become historically registered, all the work will be grandfathered in, and only the changes thereafter will be affected by the more strict regulations. As for now, I'm looking for ideas, no matter how hairbrained they might sound. The practical application approach for installation can be sought at a later date. I'm looking for imagination. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To answer at least one of your other questions: The dropped ceiling I had in mind would not have been ANY different the the average drop ceiling assembly, except that springs are added to the wiring (which are drilled into the framing members above) and the ceiling being drywall pieces instead of acoustical ceiling tile. Eric

Hello again Eric. Very interesting. Well it sounds like you have a handle on this project, but let me add one thing. I used to install store fixtures, and our main client was Macys. I've seen MANY unusual solutions in their stores, for suspension of ceilings. But almost all of them included the use of UNISTRUT as the MAIN suspended support mechanism, with HATCHANNEL wired to the Unistrut, and the sheetrock screwed to the Hatchannnel. The Unistrut was usually suspended by a type of wire that is identified and spec'd for these loads, and in turn, hung from what ever type of bracket that was required for the condition above. Usually, an "L" bracket that was fastened to a concrete floor above, which they "fired" a concrete anchor through a hole in the L bracket into the concrete. In your case, I would the suggest the use of a "kinetic" isolation connector(not a spring) for decoupling the unistrut from the framing above. Well, thats my .02. Here are some links. Good luck and keep posting your progress. Its always interesting to see these sort of unusual projects. http://www.unistrut.com/product/mframe.html http://www.silentsource.com/specprod-hangers.html http://www.silentsource.com/rsic.html fitZ :)

Now those are some great ideas! I like the rubber better than the springs. Quite a bit more of an expense, though - $3.20 each as opposed to $0.65 ea. However, seems I can get these in a sturdy version. [I wonder about their pricing? Seems they have it backward, because the largest diameter is rated for the lowest weight. Is it me, or is this a mistake? - No matter, I will keep this idea in the back of my mind.] Thanks. Eric

Hello Eric, your cost on these would be determined by the weight spacing ratio using Unistrut, but I don't know how you would calculate that. Also, the connectors at the framing above should be spec'd by weight/pull out. We had to provide these sort of engineered specifications when we suspended heavy such as valances, signage, and other types of store fixtures from structural ceilings above suspended ceilings. fitZ

Right. When I found the custom spring manufacturer, I had estimated the weight of the dropped ceiling structure. This was all at the very beginning - early 2002, soon after I bought the building, but before the foundational reinforcement work began (which still continues). Since then, I have changed my mind on quite a few things, such as how handy it would be for future maintenance to use batts rather than blow-in in the ceiling! You never know when you have to get back up in there for something. And the people on this forum are talking me into using other than the original insulation (I was leaning toward mineral wool - Eric Giles and Steve seem to have some better ideas.) In any case, I will hold off from doing the actual calculations until right before actually making the material orders. Eric

Hey Eric, this is just a drawing exercise for me. Pay no heed. :lol: fitZ

FitZ, Interesting drawing. I hadn't really concerned myself as to how the walls and ceiling would fit (seal) together. That's a nice idea, there. I presume you're using rubber in the drywall corner.

Eric, that was just a quick drawing excercise. The detail is NOT exactly what I would do, and in fact, there are quite a few things not shown either. Like a floating sway bracket at the top of the wall, and the "L" brackets bolted to the rafters for the wires, and a few others. But it will do for a quicky. Actually, that is not a rubber seal, it is caulking, and again, I didn't show or call out fiberglass tape and joint compound over it. Although I've always wondered how caulking sticks to an open edge of gyp bd. Doesn't seem like it would, at least not very well. I have seen a detail in the USG spec's of a rubber or vinyl seal that sticks on but I don't think I would like the looks of that. Unless it was covered by acoustic treatments or something of that nature. But for a painted finish, I prefer the tape and texture over caulking. fitZ