Ah, thanks for that lesson :) I see said the blind man, now we can talk in the same terms! Sorry for my ignorance. But, yes that wall to the far right STC-63 IS what the wall between the studio and tracking room will have, I just didn't know what to call it. However, for the other exterior walls, at least at this point, would be like the STC-50 example. The reason being that the general contractor will build those walls using standard construction, which would be the STC-36 style wall. Then after they finish, we would come in and do the next wall inside it, creating the STC-50 style wall. I guess if it were necessary, we could talk to the contractors and have them do both walls. Or we could remove the drywall first, which still wouldn't quite give the STC-63 walls due to not have double sheetrock on the outside. Sound isolation to those outside walls would be to keep minimal outside noise from entering the studio as opposed to the studio creating a problem outside. You could literally fire off a cannon here and nobody would notice. Someone 5 miles off might wonder what it was, but it wouldn't be a problem :) I have attached a nice sunset photo of the site, taken on March 6th. gaboHi Gabo, Okay, so I think I am understanding more of your concept and needs. First, let's go back to basics - you need to get your head around how double leaf assemblies are constructed. These assemblies are what people are talking about when they say "room within a room". They consist of an outer leaf and an inner leaf. (this is what I am referring to with inner and outer wall) A typical construction of such an assembly would be like this: Outside world - Cladding - OSB - Drywall - Insulated air cavity - Drywall - Drywall - Inside room So you would have two timber frames, separated by an air gap (which is the insulated cavity) and you would ONLY have paneling (the drywall, osb etc) on the outer and inner most faces. Nothing in between. This is a fully decoupled 2 leaf wall (or double leaf) which is what you need. If you have 3 leaves, or 4 leaves, or 5 leaves etc then your isolation (sound proofing) will be much worse. See the assembly on the far right in the attached diagram? That is how all your walls/ceiling should be built. I'm mentioning this because from what you've just told me in your post above you are planning to build two sets of normal residential partition walls, with panelling both sides of the studs on each wall, with bass trapping and other treatment in between those walls.... That would be a 4 leaf assembly with acoustic treatment in the wrong place! All your treatment (acoustic shell) is not really a wall, it's just a third frame that holds all your treatment inside of your space. But for now let's just concentrate on the inner and outer walls, and the dimensions of those. If you only have your acoustic shell walls on the sides of your control room then you will have absolutely zero isolation between your tracking room and control room, so those 12" trap walls you're talking about would need to have proper solid walls behind them. Paul
New Studio in Design Phase
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 22310.
Just ask them not to drywall the inside face... then you erect the second wall in front of that. Simples :D If you needed the extra isolation on the outer wall then you can install drywall in between the studs, pressed up against the drywall that the contractors install. Or simply ask them to install two layers of drywall... it won't cost any more since they were going to put a layer of drywall on both sides of the studs anyway.... same amount of materials and time, just both drywall layers on the same side. But, what is going to be on the outside of that drywall that they install? Surely there will be some weather resistant sheathing and cladding? Or is the studio surrounded by the rest of the house? PaulAh, thanks for that lesson :) I see said the blind man, now we can talk in the same terms! Sorry for my ignorance. But, yes that wall to the far right STC-63 IS what the wall between the studio and tracking room will have, I just didn't know what to call it. However, for the other exterior walls, at least at this point, would be like the STC-50 example. The reason being that the general contractor will build those walls using standard construction, which would be the STC-36 style wall. Then after they finish, we would come in and do the next wall inside it, creating the STC-50 style wall. I guess if it were necessary, we could talk to the contractors and have them do both walls. Or we could remove the drywall first, which still wouldn't quite give the STC-63 walls due to not have double sheetrock on the outside. Sound isolation to those outside walls would be to keep minimal outside noise from entering the studio as opposed to the studio creating a problem outside. You could literally fire off a cannon here and nobody would notice. Someone 5 miles off might wonder what it was, but it wouldn't be a problem :) I have attached a nice sunset photo of the site, taken on March 6th. gaboHi Gabo, Okay, so I think I am understanding more of your concept and needs. First, let's go back to basics - you need to get your head around how double leaf assemblies are constructed. These assemblies are what people are talking about when they say "room within a room". They consist of an outer leaf and an inner leaf. (this is what I am referring to with inner and outer wall) A typical construction of such an assembly would be like this: Outside world - Cladding - OSB - Drywall - Insulated air cavity - Drywall - Drywall - Inside room So you would have two timber frames, separated by an air gap (which is the insulated cavity) and you would ONLY have paneling (the drywall, osb etc) on the outer and inner most faces. Nothing in between. This is a fully decoupled 2 leaf wall (or double leaf) which is what you need. If you have 3 leaves, or 4 leaves, or 5 leaves etc then your isolation (sound proofing) will be much worse. See the assembly on the far right in the attached diagram? That is how all your walls/ceiling should be built. I'm mentioning this because from what you've just told me in your post above you are planning to build two sets of normal residential partition walls, with panelling both sides of the studs on each wall, with bass trapping and other treatment in between those walls.... That would be a 4 leaf assembly with acoustic treatment in the wrong place! All your treatment (acoustic shell) is not really a wall, it's just a third frame that holds all your treatment inside of your space. But for now let's just concentrate on the inner and outer walls, and the dimensions of those. If you only have your acoustic shell walls on the sides of your control room then you will have absolutely zero isolation between your tracking room and control room, so those 12" trap walls you're talking about would need to have proper solid walls behind them. Paul
yes, simple and easy.Just ask them not to drywall the inside face... then you erect the second wall in front of that. Simples :D If you needed the extra isolation on the outer wall then you can install drywall in between the studs, pressed up against the drywall that the contractors install. Or simply ask them to install two layers of drywall... it won't cost any more since they were going to put a layer of drywall on both sides of the studs anyway.... same amount of materials and time, just both drywall layers on the same side.
Ah yes, of course there will. But to answer that will also require getting his wife involved. She has all the say on the way the outside looks. Knowing them, probably not logs! haha, too much work. Last house had some type of high tech siding, probably something similar as it's maintenance free (or at least low). gaboBut, what is going to be on the outside of that drywall that they install? Surely there will be some weather resistant sheathing and cladding? Or is the studio surrounded by the rest of the house? Paul
Ok once you have the details, let us know. Depending on what is used and how its applied it could add significant mass to that leaf ad the extra drywall might not be necessary.
Paul
The issue with siding/cladding/sheathing/whatever you want to call it, is that it isn't snug to the sheathing. My house has Hardie Board siding on it which is super heavy, but there are voids between it and the OSB sheathing. Having said that, I highly suggest just adding the extra sheathing mass before the siding goes up. As anyone who's done it can testify, beefing up from the inside is a ton of work. GregOk once you have the details, let us know. Depending on what is used and how its applied it could add significant mass to that leaf ad the extra drywall might not be necessary.
Greg, the siding does not always have a void between it and the sheathing, it depends on the design. If it has a void behind it then it is acting as a rain screen where any moisture that gets behind it can drip down and escape at the bottom. However, that is just one way of doing it. That's why I was asking for clarification on his design so as to determine whether or not the siding can indeed be counted towards the total mass of the external leaf, or not. PaulThe issue with siding/cladding/sheathing/whatever you want to call it, is that it isn't snug to the sheathing. My house has Hardie Board siding on it which is super heavy, but there are voids between it and the OSB sheathing. Having said that, I highly suggest just adding the extra sheathing mass before the siding goes up. As anyone who's done it can testify, beefing up from the inside is a ton of work. GregOk once you have the details, let us know. Depending on what is used and how its applied it could add significant mass to that leaf ad the extra drywall might not be necessary.
Thanks guys, that's the best solution. quick question - Does the loss of sound through the wall also reduce the level of that frequency inside? Maybe that's not clear. For example, a standard household wall supposedly transfers from about 70hz and below straight through it. Does that also mean that you'll have a loss of SPL from 70hz and below on the inside? It seems logical to me that if frequencies just pass through, that they are lost forever and that those frequencies would be reduced compared to a wall that they wouldn't pass through. Is that true? At any rate, I think the STC-63 construction is what we're going to plan for regardless of what type of exterior siding is installed. As Greg correctly states, that exterior siding isn't that tight to the wall and indeed if it's any type of vinyl siding, the proper way to install that is actually loose. A proper install actually has the nails not even hammered all the way in, but just slightly out. On another note - This project has taken a turn for the worse with the corona virus situation. The appraisal for the post building structure has been reduced to the point that it is below the cost of the construction. This makes it impossible to convert the construction loan into a mortgage. Also, many of the people involved are not working at this time. It'll all get done, it just may delay a lot of the construction to a year or more and possibly downsize some things. I don't think the studio space will be down sized, but not sure. In the meantime, I'll continue to learn and understand, so it's all good. By the time we get there, maybe I'll know what I'm doing :) gaboThe issue with siding/cladding/sheathing/whatever you want to call it, is that it isn't snug to the sheathing. My house has Hardie Board siding on it which is super heavy, but there are voids between it and the OSB sheathing. Having said that, I highly suggest just adding the extra sheathing mass before the siding goes up. As anyone who's done it can testify, beefing up from the inside is a ton of work. GregOk once you have the details, let us know. Depending on what is used and how its applied it could add significant mass to that leaf ad the extra drywall might not be necessary.
I'm sorry to hear that, but it may actually be a blessing in disguise: giving you much more time to design it and more importantly understand the why's and how's. As I pointed out in my post above, the exterior siding is not always loose or with a void behind it, it depends on the design. For example, you could use cement board directly over the OSB and apply stucco, or just simply paint it. However, sounds like you are going to have a rain screen style siding with a void behind it, so you can discount any extra mass that would have added and add extra mass to the wall before applying the siding. But, to answer your question, yes, the thinner your walls are the less sound is reflected back into your room which can be very beneficially, acoustically speaking especially for low frequencies, which are the only real problem for relatively small rooms, or the most difficult to treat anyway. So, as said before if you are not worried about isolation then just build lossy walls and let all that low end escape instead of being reflected back into your room causing problems! you'll still need some treatment, but it won't be as much as you'd need if you were building concrete bunkers. Again, the only issues you're going to have if you do that is fighting against the noisy elements and wildlife, the rest of the house and leakage between recording space(s) and control room. If you're not bothered by that or can make it work, then save yourself a hell of a load of time and money and build lossy assemblies! PaulThanks guys, that's the best solution. quick question - Does the loss of sound through the wall also reduce the level of that frequency inside? Maybe that's not clear. For example, a standard household wall supposedly transfers from about 70hz and below straight through it. Does that also mean that you'll have a loss of SPL from 70hz and below on the inside? It seems logical to me that if frequencies just pass through, that they are lost forever and that those frequencies would be reduced compared to a wall that they wouldn't pass through. Is that true? At any rate, I think the STC-63 construction is what we're going to plan for regardless of what type of exterior siding is installed. As Greg correctly states, that exterior siding isn't that tight to the wall and indeed if it's any type of vinyl siding, the proper way to install that is actually loose. A proper install actually has the nails not even hammered all the way in, but just slightly out. On another note - This project has taken a turn for the worse with the corona virus situation. The appraisal for the post building structure has been reduced to the point that it is below the cost of the construction. This makes it impossible to convert the construction loan into a mortgage. Also, many of the people involved are not working at this time. It'll all get done, it just may delay a lot of the construction to a year or more and possibly downsize some things. I don't think the studio space will be down sized, but not sure. In the meantime, I'll continue to learn and understand, so it's all good. By the time we get there, maybe I'll know what I'm doing :) gaboThe issue with siding/cladding/sheathing/whatever you want to call it, is that it isn't snug to the sheathing. My house has Hardie Board siding on it which is super heavy, but there are voids between it and the OSB sheathing. Having said that, I highly suggest just adding the extra sheathing mass before the siding goes up. As anyone who's done it can testify, beefing up from the inside is a ton of work. GregOk once you have the details, let us know. Depending on what is used and how its applied it could add significant mass to that leaf ad the extra drywall might not be necessary.
True, fortunately I'm like you guys for this project, just doing free consulting for the guy who's building it. So at least don't have to deal with any of the financing or contractor things.I'm sorry to hear that, but it may actually be a blessing in disguise: giving you much more time to design it and more importantly understand the why's and how's.
Probably true, although maybe up in the air right nowAs I pointed out in my post above, the exterior siding is not always loose or with a void behind it, it depends on the design. For example, you could use cement board directly over the OSB and apply stucco, or just simply paint it. However, sounds like you are going to have a rain screen style siding with a void behind it, so you can discount any extra mass that would have added and add extra mass to the wall before applying the siding.
Yea, we're probably not going to go that route. Mostly likely build the STC-63 walls you so kindly sent the picture of. I did a lot of reading after you sent that and now understand it a lot better. Here's a good place to learn a lot about that https://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing-101 That question was more to satisfy my curiosity. I didn't know if the loss of the low frequency through a wall could be a good thing, because it was gone and you didn't have to worry about treating for it. Or if it was a bad thing, because it was lost outside the space and therefore reduced in volume compared to higher frequencies that did not escape. Thanks, gaboBut, to answer your question, yes, the thinner your walls are the less sound is reflected back into your room which can be very beneficially, acoustically speaking especially for low frequencies, which are the only real problem for relatively small rooms, or the most difficult to treat anyway. So, as said before if you are not worried about isolation then just build lossy walls and let all that low end escape instead of being reflected back into your room causing problems! you'll still need some treatment, but it won't be as much as you'd need if you were building concrete bunkers. Again, the only issues you're going to have if you do that is fighting against the noisy elements and wildlife, the rest of the house and leakage between recording space(s) and control room. If you're not bothered by that or can make it work, then save yourself a hell of a load of time and money and build lossy assemblies! Paul
Well, I'm back, although working a bunch of things simultaneously so sometimes my time is stretched.
The good news. The build of my friends studio is back in full swing. The house/structure foundation has been finished, getting ready to put up walls and more planning has been done.
The exterior walls of the studio are being built to STC-63 specs, so that should be good. And we've made a big change for the better in the control room. I've talked the owner into using video cameras/screens for visual monitoring and by doing that turned the control room 90 degrees.
That's a long way to say the control room went from about 16'x14' to a much nicer 26' x 16' 6". In addition, the back wall will now be adjacent to a 5' wide entry/coat hallway, so we'll be able to take some space behind that wall for trapping. The ceiling will be 9' at the front of the studio, rising to 15' at about 15' back from the front wall, and going back down to about 12' where the back wall is.
Two issues that might be a problem, one is a window on the side of the control room. I've tried to get it removed without any luck. But it will be behind the side reflection point and I think we're going to put a sliding barn door type panel that we can slide over the window. We can put either diffusion or absorption on the panel and match it on the opposite wall so it's symmetrical.
So we're slowly moving in a good direction. Thanks for all the help from here.
gabo
Glad to hear the project is underway. Much better control room size! Have you got any designs/floorplans of the latest design? PaulWell, I'm back, although working a bunch of things simultaneously so sometimes my time is stretched. The good news. The build of my friends studio is back in full swing. The house/structure foundation has been finished, getting ready to put up walls and more planning has been done. The exterior walls of the studio are being built to STC-63 specs, so that should be good. And we've made a big change for the better in the control room. I've talked the owner into using video cameras/screens for visual monitoring and by doing that turned the control room 90 degrees. That's a long way to say the control room went from about 16'x14' to a much nicer 26' x 16' 6". In addition, the back wall will now be adjacent to a 5' wide entry/coat hallway, so we'll be able to take some space behind that wall for trapping. The ceiling will be 9' at the front of the studio, rising to 15' at about 15' back from the front wall, and going back down to about 12' where the back wall is. Two issues that might be a problem, one is a window on the side of the control room. I've tried to get it removed without any luck. But it will be behind the side reflection point and I think we're going to put a sliding barn door type panel that we can slide over the window. We can put either diffusion or absorption on the panel and match it on the opposite wall so it's symmetrical. So we're slowly moving in a good direction. Thanks for all the help from here. gabo
Ok, there were a few minor tweaks to the size. But I now have a very basic sketch in sketchup free (trying to learn that a bit).
Is there a convenient way to "share" a sketchup drawing? If I could give you access to it, you could just work directly with it. Looks like I can download it, or export it in various ways, that would work as well. Just let me know the best way.
Thanks, gabo
EDIT: I guess just downloading as an SKP and attaching here will work. But if something else is more convenient, let me know.
Cool, I took a look and these are my thoughts: You mentioned a length of 26' before which, as you said, has changed to 25' 1. Although this is much better than before L26' x W16' 6" x average of H12' has a much better modal spread and bonello chart than with a length of 25' 1. That dimension is also within 5% double the height, which is not the end of the world since your ceiling height actually varies in reality, but just nice if you can get that little extra volume and more even modal spread. It's still going to be cool great if this can't be changed though. The only other thing I'd mention at this stage is the position of the two doors; the one on the short wall is slightly off centre and the one on the long wall is almost exactly in the corner. I would centralise the one on the short wall to keep things symmetrical at the rear and move the one on the long wall away from the corner by about 3' to make room for bass trapping. Other than that, it's a good start. PaulOk, there were a few minor tweaks to the size. But I now have a very basic sketch in sketchup free (trying to learn that a bit). Is there a convenient way to "share" a sketchup drawing? If I could give you access to it, you could just work directly with it. Looks like I can download it, or export it in various ways, that would work as well. Just let me know the best way. Thanks, gabo EDIT: I guess just downloading as an SKP and attaching here will work. But if something else is more convenient, let me know.
Thanks, unfortunately that length of 25' 1" is stuck there. There had been a few changed to the basic structure of the entire building and I was told it was 26', but I had a few things that seemed off to me so I went over and measured it. It is, unfortunately 25'1"
The other wall, the 16' 6" one could be tweaked a bit as it's the divider between the CR and the live room.
As for the doors, I think we can move the one out about 3', that shouldn't be a problem. The other one in the back wall, unfortunately is the end of a hallway in the house, so it's stuck there.
Another change from my original understanding is the ceiling is vaulted in the center, not offset. So it's 9' on the ends and 15' in the center.
A quick question, would it be better to bring that door from the corner to align with the window on the other side? I wanted to get rid of the window, but it would really affect the aesthetics of the outside of the house. We're thinking about making a sliding barn style panel to slide over that window when mixing.
Thanks, gabo
EDIT: Ah, and actually that hallway door isn't quite as offset as I had in the drawing. Novice sketchup error :) It's actually 6' 5 1/2" from the front and 6' 10 1/2" from the other wall (the one with the door in the corner). Those are "inside" dimensions leaving the door opening at 3' 2". So it's not centered, but it's not terribly offset.