Small Drum Practice Room

So my friend Darren needs a room where he can practice and film some tutorial type videos without having the cops come knock on his door. Of course, I offered to help him since he has been and will be some muscle for my personal studio build. Meeting noise bylaw requirements is priority number one. Number two is having it comfortable (HVAC). Number three is treating the small room acoustically as best as possible. Number four is having it look great for vibe and great video shots. I went over yesterday for consultation session number one and after doing some SPL measurements, the project went from a simple beef up, tapping into his house HVAC, and acoustic treatment project to a full on room in a room, HVAC silencer, mini-split project. Bylaws in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada are 65 dBA at property line. I initially measured C weighted and he hit 66. A weighted will read louder above 1kHz and as it was, I could damned near hear cymbals. I could hear the tone in his room, outside. Not good at all. That is what triggered him to say screw it, let's go all in. Here is what I quickly drew up for him. We got a plan of attack for all of the HVAC including what units, we figured out silencer box dimensions and duct work. The dimensions of the room AFTER building the room in a room will be 11' 11" long (into the nook) or 9' 10" (to the door) by 11' 3 3/8" wide by 7' 1/4" tall. We will be doing an inside out ceiling, so that 7' 1/4" will be the bottom of the LVL stud. Acoustic ceiling height will be 7' 5 3/4". Inner leaf stale air return will be run through 3 silencer boxes stuffed between floor joists on the far left side of the SketchUp render, overhead. Behind the nook inner leaf wall, we will situate the other 3 silencer boxes. The fresh air inner leaf supply silencer sleeves will penetrate through the nook wall up high and the mini split head will be underneath of it. This will provide fresh air into the top of the mini split head. To the far right of the drum room in the SketchUp render, there is a storage room where we will penetrate his rim board with the return and supply ducts to outside. They will run through an HRV that has a fan in it. I haven't run the numbers for that yet (as I haven't drawn up the silencer boxes... and it's only been 1 evening since he decided this it route he wants to go), but I'm hoping the static pressure of the system will fall within the fan spec of the HRV. If it doesn't, we will probably just scrap the HRV and go with a strong inline duct fan. Before deciding to use this room as a drum room, he had drywalled it as a bedroom. He had stuffed some Safe'n'Sound in the joists as his master bedroom is directly above. He used ultralight 1/2" drywall everywhere. He can re-use some sheets to finish his basement laundry room. The rest can go in the garbage. After deciding to go all out on the room, he immediately started unscrewing the drywall (luckily it wasn't mudded/taped yet). Here are a couple progress pics from last night. So for now, I'm going to draw up the silencer boxes for him and we are getting a price on the mini-split from my buddy who runs an HVAC company. Darren will finish tearing off the drywall, extend the perimeter outer leaf walls to the foundation, beef up the sub floor above, and seal everything. I'll try and get Darren on the forum so he can update this thread instead of me. But if he doesn't, I will, just so there is more content on the forum for you turkey's to look at. Hopefully something along the way can help someone. And as usual, hopefully one of you catch some mistakes and help myself and Darren out with his design/build! Greg

Okay, so I finished designing the silencer boxes minus the sleeves and some connections. That way Darren will know where to put his outer leaf wall separating his drum room and storage room. I was able to squeeze them into a 1 foot gap. He is pretty desperate to keep as much space in that storage room as possible. I've left a decent gap between the silencers and the studs to maintain a decent spring gap there (with the stud depth). Here are the 3 silencers in that wall (I have the "lids" off of them). They are all the same dimensions. One is flipped as it is the inner leaf supply. The other two that we can see inside are the outer leaf silencers and are anchored to the storage room wall. They have some varying cross sectional areas throughout to help with static pressure and give that extra little bit of impedance mismatch. The inner leaf return silencers is where things got interesting. In order to have them on the opposite side of the room, we utilized the existing floor joists. In order to have the correct cross sectional area, it worked out that we have to feed 3 individual silencers with 3" round duct. Luckily, he had 3 available joist spaces. The math JUST worked out perfect for these. With these, I'm able to have the air velocity under 150 feet per minute. I'm obviously not done, but it's coming along very quick. I made an algorithm to help me calculate silencer box dimensions fast. It sure does help. I think I'll let Darren catch up with the project before I go into much more design as I should be prioritizing my own for a bit here. Here is the room overview thus far: Oh, and an update on the heating/cooling aspect of the room. The LG mini split we want ends up being just over $3500 plus depending on how long the commissioning takes, it could be up to $1500 parts/labour. I said we'd mount it and energize it (Darren's brother is an electrician) to save some money. In the end, we found a $1200 no-name type brand that would work and we'd run all the lines and just have my buddy come and vacuum test it and charge it for $180. HERE is the no-name brand one we found. I'm still thinking about the cheapest option for Darren. The HRV won't be super cheap either so we might ditch that for now. Either way, these silencer boxes are necessary for the fresh air insertion loss. Mounting a mini split head won't change anything of what we are doing right now. Greg

Darren has been working hard beefing up his existing ceiling -- subfloor for the main floor above him. Here's a pic: He is going to move his cleats over and seal things up better. For ease of construction he decided to use MDF. He's been doing this all by himself! I wish I had time to go help him more! Greg

So I devoted today to finishing up the mechanical side of things for Darren. I drew up the rough idea for the duct work. The dark duct is flex duct of some sort. I calculated the static pressure of his entire system to be ~0.184 in wg. Bad news, the cheapest HRV I can find him that will suit his needs will run him $1263.68 + 5% GST. So for now, I think he will probably just go with an inline fan. The fan I found him that would supply the around the correct amount of CFM at that static pressure will be the Fantech FG 4XL. I will call tomorrow to get a price on that unit. I also drew a bunch more detail on his SketchUp like outer leaf drywall and things like that to make it more accurate for him to ensure his outer leaf is sealed. I also found him a nice large grille for his supply sleeve that will keep the air velocity nice and slow with a large open percentage and minimal vane angle. Here's the HVAC system: Now, to get back to my stuff! Greg

I headed over to Darren's place the other night to give him a hand with his project. He has got a ton done. Beefing up and sealing up the outer leaf is a big job for one guy. The rim board along the top of his foundation was very tricky because the top of the foundation is very uneven and messy. So cutting pieces to fit in there was a pain. The outer leaf is on the home stretch. Next comes HVAC preliminary stages then the inner leaf and all the aspects that come along with that. Here are some progress pictures. Greg

Gregwor wrote:

I headed over to Darren's place the other night to give him a hand with his project. He has got a ton done. Beefing up and sealing up the outer leaf is a big job for one guy. The rim board along the top of his foundation was very tricky because the top of the foundation is very uneven and messy. So cutting pieces to fit in there was a pain. The outer leaf is on the home stretch. Next comes HVAC preliminary stages then the inner leaf and all the aspects that come along with that. Here are some progress pictures.

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Greg

Greg, Forgive me if the terms I use are incorrect, but this is pretty new to me and I'm looking to do something similar soon. Those blocks of wood on the sides of the joists, are those the cleats you're referring to? Were they always there, or were those added to the joists to put sheet rock above to beef up the ceiling as you mentioned? Are those two sheets of sheet shock in the ceiling with green glue in between them? Thank you, Mark

Mark, Those are his cleats, yes. They're rather large, but that's what he found the cheapest to use. I believe they were 2x3 dimenionsal lumber. They are screwed into the joists to hold up his beef up material. He will move them once his sealant dries and then apply more sealant where those cleats are. The sealant will have a total of two layers to ensure no leaks. There is sealant around the perimeter of each layer of material. He sealed around the joists where the subfloor above connects as well. There is Green Glue compound between each layer of MDF as well. He added two layers of 1/2" MDF which is roughly equivalent to the mass of two layers of 5/8" drywall. Greg

Gregwor wrote:

Mark, Those are his cleats, yes. They're rather large, but that's what he found the cheapest to use. I believe they were 2x3 dimenionsal lumber. They are screwed into the joists to hold up his beef up material. He will move them once his sealant dries and then apply more sealant where those cleats are. The sealant will have a total of two layers to ensure no leaks. There is sealant around the perimeter of each layer of material. He sealed around the joists where the subfloor above connects as well. There is Green Glue compound between each layer of MDF as well. He added two layers of 1/2" MDF which is roughly equivalent to the mass of two layers of 5/8" drywall. Greg

Thanks for clarifying that. If he takes the cleats away, how is the MDF going to stay up? Is there sealant all over it between the top and the subfloor? Thanks, Mark

Thanks for clarifying that. If he takes the cleats away, how is the MDF going to stay up?

He will move one cleat at a time. But, in theory, the sealant up there will be dried enough to hold the wood up there. That, plus the Green Glue compound will have a suction cup type effect. Remember though, the GG compound is NOT glue.

Is there sealant all over it between the top and the subfloor?

There is GG COMPOUND between the subfloor and the first layer of MDF. Then there is more compound between the two layers of MDF. The sealant is applied at the perimeter of each layer :thu: Greg

Gregwor wrote:

Thanks for clarifying that. If he takes the cleats away, how is the MDF going to stay up?

He will move one cleat at a time. But, in theory, the sealant up there will be dried enough to hold the wood up there. That, plus the Green Glue compound will have a suction cup type effect. Remember though, the GG compound is NOT glue.

Is there sealant all over it between the top and the subfloor?

There is GG COMPOUND between the subfloor and the first layer of MDF. Then there is more compound between the two layers of MDF. The sealant is applied at the perimeter of each layer :thu: Greg

Thanks. I have OSI SC175 Draft and Acoustical Sound Sealant. Would that work at keeping pieces of sheetrock up if it was done in a similar fashion or is there a different type of sealant that would need to be used? Thank you, Mark

I have OSI SC175 Draft and Acoustical Sound Sealant. Would that work at keeping pieces of sheetrock up if it was done in a similar fashion or is there a different type of sealant that would need to be used?

I've never seen or used this product before. The only thing close to a consistency or shore rating on the website is listed as: Sag or Slump 0.10 inches The only way to know if this product will work good for the studio build sealant application will be to buy a tube and try it. See how easy it is to work with. See how clean it is to work with. And of course, see how flexible it stays after curing. If this stuff is a nightmare and fails your tests, try some regular silicone. Green Glue Sealant is a breeze to work with, but it does shrink and it does crack. So you need multiple layers of it. Plus it recently doubled in price where I live. Probably because our trade deal with the United States collapsed. Greg

Gregwor wrote:

I have OSI SC175 Draft and Acoustical Sound Sealant. Would that work at keeping pieces of sheetrock up if it was done in a similar fashion or is there a different type of sealant that would need to be used?

I've never seen or used this product before. The only thing close to a consistency or shore rating on the website is listed as: Sag or Slump 0.10 inches The only way to know if this product will work good for the studio build sealant application will be to buy a tube and try it. See how easy it is to work with. See how clean it is to work with. And of course, see how flexible it stays after curing. If this stuff is a nightmare and fails your tests, try some regular silicone. Green Glue Sealant is a breeze to work with, but it does shrink and it does crack. So you need multiple layers of it. Plus it recently doubled in price where I live. Probably because our trade deal with the United States collapsed. Greg

OK Greg, thanks for the reply. I think this is more to stop noise and drafts to go through than anything else. I'll probably have to try another sealant. I think they just signed something new so hopefully the price of the Green Glue will go down.

Mark, would you mind filling out your profile more thoroughly? The mods are pretty strict about following the forum rules. You can read the rules here: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=7572 Thanks!!!

I swung by Darren's place today for a quick visit and was very impressed with his progress. Other than the small wall where we have to deal with the silencer boxes, he has completed his outer leaf. He is just re-using the old insulation which is a combination of Safe'n'Sound and some random pink fluffy. He's held it back lightly with string to prevent it collapsing over time and during the standing of his inside out inner leaf walls. The reason his drums are set up in the picture is because the rest of his basement was being taped/mudded. He's been working lots at his job and is now going to paint the rest of his basement while everything is out of the way before he continues on the drum room. This will give me time to double check my HVAC calculations for him. Also, I'll be recording the drums for his solo project shortly so everything is happening at once. Here is a progress picture in the meantime! The next steps for him will either be door construction or silencer boxes/HVAC along with electrical prep. Greg

Darren will be getting his door slab, 4731 door seals, some 4 ½” x 4” Hager BB1168 hinges, and duct liner soon. We picked up MDF for his silencer boxes and he has built and stood most of his inside out walls (one has to be built around his door jamb so until the door is ready he cannot do that one). I'm going to help him build his silencer boxes since I have the tools to do it. Here is a pic of his progress so far. I haven't personally been there to see it, but he has done well considering he hasn't had any help from anyone! Greg

This morning Darren and I built his inner leaf door frame (he is going to see if his current outer leaf door can be modified to work as it is solid core). He got 2x6 Douglas Fir that of course wasn't nice and straight. So, we ran it all through the jointer and planer a bunch and ripped it down to 1 1/4" thick and nice and straight! I'm curious how cutting the bottom of the door of is going to go, but it's going to happen! Here are the door frame pics: Greg

Darren built some of his ceiling modules: Greg

A few nights ago Darren and I got the majority of his door built. First, we cut the bottom off the door: Then we cut up 3/4" MDF for the beef up. The 4731 seals were dry fit so we left 7/8" for each seal (they are 3/4"). It was faster and more accurate to use a make shift fence out of some 1" MDF and rip the wood using a circular saw. My old circular saw is screwed so I got to try out my new Dewalt SWE575SB on this project. It's a treat to use compared to my old one! After that, we dry fit everything: The first layer of MDF is shorter on the bottom to accommodate an automatic door bottom seal. Then I clamped a sacrificial piece of wood to the face of the door that the circular blade would potentially rip out and instead of chiseling for each hinge, we just used the circular saw to remove the wood by making a bunch of passes with it. Then a quick clean up with the chisel and we were off to the races! I don't have any pictures of it, but we started removing the wood for the hinges on the door frame with the circular saw as well. But of course, we couldn't rip right across the frame with the saw so we just chewed out as much as we could with the saw and then Darren took the frame home to chisel out the rest by hand (as it was about 3am by that point). Greg

We dry fit the door. As strong as the Douglas Fir frame is, it still clearly needs to be reinforced with the rest of the wall frame to stand nice and straight! If I pull on the door frame and hold it tight, the door squares up perfectly in the frame and swings open and closed very smoothly. The hinges are beasts so I'm assuming it won't be much different once the slab has the extra MDF weight added to it. To add the 3/4" MDF to the slab, we dry fit the MDF and fought with it to get it exactly in the right position. We clamped it then traced the slab with a pencil and predrilled 6 holes. After countersinking the holes, we installed the screws then removed everything for gluing. Using a cheap small paint roller, we applied an even coat of glue on each piece of material. Lining up the slab in the perfect place was easy after the prep. We did this with both sheets of MDF and with screws and clamps, it will be awesome. You can see we used lots of clamps and a set of my home made cauls that I made out of scrap lumber. The cauls have a 1/32" taken off the bottom straight side at the ends (done on the jointer) in order to apply a bunch of pressure to the middle of the MDF. This makes the caul kind of a slight U shape. If you look closely at this first clamping picture, you can see the 1/32" little gaps that close up at the ends where the clamps are. This shows how the lumber is flexing, providing pressure at the middle and at the ends. Greg

After many hours of work yesterday evening, Darren and I cut all of his silencer box MDF. We measured all the pieces in SketchUp and entered the data into workshop-buddy.com to help figure out how to best utilize the sheets. Unfortunately it didn't work quite as well as I'd hoped. It was good enough but it missed a few opportunities and for no reason ended up wasting an extra sheet. I recommend using it but check for yourself to see if you can fit some smaller pieces on to left over chunks. We got very fast and efficient at using my ghetto MDF straight edge with clamps and a circular saw to rip the sheets. In the end, we cut 81 pieces. It took until 3:30am and I hurt and feel like butt today. Worth it! Greg

Looks good man! That's about 2 1/2 years ago for me now....I used 2 layers 3/4 OSB though. It took me about 8 hours to build each box once I had the pieces ready....

Here are some pics of assembling the silencer boxes. To adhere the OC QuietR Rotary Duct Liner, we used Magna Tack To somewhat seal corners/ends of insulation, we used Seal Tack. We also used it to cover up the flange on the duct fitting after brad nailing it to the box. Greg

Last night Darren and I took all of his silencer boxes and his door to his place. We hung his door but didn't make fine adjustments to the hinges yet as we need to take the door out to install the automatic door bottom when it comes in. Since the door is in the corner on an uneven slab, we had to be very careful to get everything square and level... and strong. The door swings beautifully. It's crazy to think how heavy it is and it just swings like it weighs nothing. I cut up some rimboard and touched up caulking while I was there. Darren picked up all the duct work he should need too. Greg

You call that a box???? Now that's a box!!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Those are beasts for sure! The tiny one Darren is spraying is one of 3 that make up his inner leaf return silencers. His room is tiny so it made sense to fit these into the joist spaces above. The other three measure 53 1/2" x 26". Also not massive, but his room is small and with the ductless mini split, these are purely cycling fresh and stale air in and out of the room. I see why yours took 8 hours a box to build even after you had materials cut! Greg