Studio in Azeitão - Portugal

Because I want a big room...

Then why did you just make it 20% smaller? :shock: :roll: You still have not changed your speaker angles. You are still stuck at 30° toe-in, with 60° axis intercept. Until you change that, you aren't going to get a good layout for your room.

the analogue mixer will fits well

Not understanding you at all now! Before you had 177 cm from mix position to soffit center: now you only have 144cm! How is that better? When I suggested that you should change your angles before, reducing that same distance to something like you have now, you said that would not work because it "lost the empty space to put a analogue mixer". :shock: Very confusing: when other people give you advice you say it can't be done, then you come up with a plan yourself that does exactly that, and it is fine!!! :roll:

the room proportions are much better!

Ummmm.... no. The room proportions have not changed. The room is still 4.7m long and 3.1m wide. And your head is now at the 50% point of the room.... Thus, this situation is far worse than it was before.

I moved the front wall forward like Gregwor said

No. You moved the front face of the SOFFIT, not the front wall. The wall is still exactly where it was before.

Now I've a good RFZ,

No you don't. You still have serious reflections from the opposite side wings back to the mix position. I don't even need to ray-trace to see that. Have you done ray-tracing, to check the ACTUAL reflection paths?

And that works with the standard 30º angle!

Why are you stuck on that angle, when it is not optimal for ANY room, especially a long and narrow one like yours?

Now the room has 240x310x400

No, because you did NOT move the wall! You just moved the soffit. Even assuming that you DID move the wall, if you did that you would be reducing the floor area from the original 14.6m2, which is already very small (way smaller than the recommended 20m2 according to specifications), to the even tinier size of just 12.4m2. So you would reduce the size of the room by 16%, just so you can keep the angle of 30°, which you don't even need to keep anyway.... That reduces the room volume from 35m3 down to just 29m3... when it should be at least 47m3, according to specs. So you would be shrinking your room from about 75% of the recommended volume to about 60% of the recommended volume for a control room... I really don't understand why you do not want to take our advice. But I'll try again: 1) FORGET THE 30° ANGLE! It is not needed, not optimal, and is causing you to make bad decisions trying to chase it. 2) FORGET ROOM RATIOS! There is no need to chase a ghost! The ratio of your UNTREATED room isn't fantastic, but also isn't terrifying: it is only just outside the Bolt area, and nothing to worry about. With decent speaker soffits in the front and deep treatment in the back, you'll be fine. 3) Maximize room volume! Don't do anything that would shrink our room more: it is already small. Work hard to keep it that way. Maximizing your room interior volume is far more important that chasing after room ratios or speaker angles, that are NOT important. 4) Before you do anything else, you first need to draw the actual size of the room after the isolation is done. You have not show that yet. Right now, as far as I can tell, you are only showing the size of the outer leaf, then the treatment, but not the isolation plan. Isolation is going to take up a lot of space, and reduce the size of the final inner-leaf room. We don't yet know what the actual size of that final isolated room is going to be, and until we do, there's no point in setting out soffit walls, wings, speakers, and the mix position. 5) Do things in the right order: FIRST define your isolation, THEN once you have that in place, start working on the speaker locations, soffits, mix position, and LAST OF ALL the treatment. Designing the treatment is what you do at the end, once the basic geometry of the room is known. You can't really design the treatment much until you know where the mix position and speakers will be, and what the soffit angles will be. Those locations define where most of the treatment has to go... - Stuart -

Stuart, I'm new on this. I know nothing about studio design and construction. All I "know" I learned with you guys and in some books over the last year. I'm a musician and sound technician. I never studied architecture or acoustics. Only musical acoustics. When I had the opportunity to have my own studio I decide not have a control room like the most I used to record that sounds like shit even with very good studio monitors. I found this forum, read some posts and I understood the importance of the room design before building, so I want to learn and follow your advice. This design was made with that advice. I said the space is not enough but I said I'd try. Gregwor said “I think a simple solution would be to just move your soffits closer to you”. And you guys insisted that I try! So I tried! I did ray tracing and input the draw on the amroc ray tracing tool and not see any reflections on mix position. Please show me these reflections because I do not see them. I’m not chasing 30º angle. With this design when I do ray tracing this works for me. I tried with another angles and I got reflections. Maybe I do not know how to do ray tracing and how to use the amroc tool. Please show me how I found the soffit angle, I do not understand yet. Maybe it's very easy but I don't understand... So here my empty room with isolation and the new wall. The room has 5,27x3,1. 12cm of insulation (orange) and 31 mm of drywall and viroc (15mm drywall and 16mm viroc -gray). The black line is the existing room. It’s fine? Can I move to the next step?

Please show me these reflections because I do not see them.

How big is that sphere representing your head?

Maybe I do not know how to do ray tracing and how to use the amroc tool.

Your ray tracing looks about right but I'd prefer to do it by hand and check any intersecting corners.

Please show me how I found the soffit angle, I do not understand yet. Maybe it's very easy but I don't understand...

Trial and error. Adjust the soffit angle and do the ray trace again. After even the second attempt, you'll see how the wall angles are affecting things and the angle adjustment will become easier to determine.

So here my empty room with isolation and the new wall. The room has 5,27x3,1. 12cm of insulation (orange) and 31 mm of drywall and viroc (15mm drywall and 16mm viroc -gray). The black line is the existing room.

Where is the gap between your outer wall and your inner leaf framing? Why don't you have two doors? Why don't you have two windows? Where are your HVAC duct work and silencer boxes going? This is all part of your isolation design. From there, like Stuart said, you place yourself, your speakers/soffit walls then your treatment.

It’s fine? Can I move to the next step?

As I just pointed out, you're on the right track. You're working hard and you're asking the right questions. Just address the points I made above and you're good to go. Stuart pointed out that your room ratio is fine. If you need to shorten your room to fit silencer boxes, that'd be fine. Put your head at the right spot in the room and move your soffit walls accordingly. Greg

Thank you Gregwor for your kind words! This is all new to me and I need all help to continue on the right track.

How big is that sphere representing your head?

40cm diameter. I really would like to see this reflections to understand what I'm doing wrong.

Your ray tracing looks about right but I'd prefer to do it by hand and check any intersecting corners.

Usually I'm do by hand and do a double check on this tool.

Trial and error. Adjust the soffit angle and do the ray trace again. After even the second attempt, you'll see how the wall angles are affecting things and the angle adjustment will become easier to determine.

So the best way to do it it's put my head where I want (something near 38% of the room) and guaranty no reflections in a 2ft sphere?

If you need to shorten your room to fit silencer boxes,

Maybe I don't' need. I have a garage in the next room with plenty of space to the silencer boxes.

Where is the gap between your outer wall and your inner leaf framing? Why don't you have two doors? Why don't you have two windows? Where are your HVAC duct work and silencer boxes going? This is all part of your isolation design. From there, like Stuart said, you place yourself, your speakers/soffit walls then your treatment.

I'll design again with all of it.

So the best way to do it it's put my head where I want (something near 38% of the room) and guaranty no reflections in a 2ft sphere

Correct.

Maybe I don't' need. I have a garage in the next room with plenty of space to the silencer boxes.

You could house your OUTER leaf silencer boxes there. But what about your INNER leaf silencer boxes?

I'll design again with all of it.

That's the spirit! Greg

You could house your OUTER leaf silencer boxes there. But what about your INNER leaf silencer boxes?

I'm thinking put in the ceiling like you did with your friend Darren. I'm 20cm space. Would be enough? How I calculate the size of the silencer boxes? I'm drawing the control room in 3D. I'm using steel studs with 90mm. It's the most common in my area. Is it enough? My new wall will have 90mm insulation, 15mm drywall glued to 16mm Viroc. A gap of about 5cm between outer wall and inner leaf framing. TL 39.95 in outer leaf and TL 35.32 on inner wall. What do you think?

How I calculate the size of the silencer boxes?

Figure out the cross sectional area you need inside of your silencer boxes. Then for your joist cavities, you can use the diagram I posted near the bottom of this page: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21752

I'm using steel studs with 90mm. It's the most common in my area. Is it enough? My new wall will have 90mm insulation, 15mm drywall glued to 16mm Viroc. A gap of about 5cm between outer wall and inner leaf framing.

Try to fill all gaps/voids with insulation. Leave no "air". Greg

Hi guys, Here's my room in 3D. I done the raytracing and the ceiling raytracing. My inner room has 3,02x5,27x2,4, about 38m3 and 16m2. Mixposition is at 34% of the room. 1,80m of the front wall and 1,50m of the soffit. A analog mix will fit. Because some existing walls have a frame close to the ceiling the insulation cavity in some places will be 15 cm. What is the best insulation? Rockwool? With what density? Now I'm study where my HVAC could work. And how to construct the soffits.

Because some existing walls have a frame close to the ceiling the insulation cavity in some places will be 15 cm. What is the best insulation? Rockwool? With what density?

Fibreglass in kg/m^3 High Freq = around 40 (others say 60-80) Mid Freq = around 35 Low Freq = 20-25 Mineral Wool in kg/m^3 High Freq = around 65 (others say 90-120) Mid Freq = around 55 Low Freq = around 30 (others say 40-45) So, you want to shoot for insulation that will perform well at low frequencies as the resonant frequency of your wall system will be very low. I notice your inner leaf wall corners aren't connected to one another. They need to be. Good work so far! Greg

I notice your inner leaf wall corners aren't connected to one another. They need to be

I know, it's only in sketchup. ;)

So, you want to shoot for insulation that will perform well at low frequencies as the resonant frequency of your wall system will be very low.

How I know the resonant frequency of my wall? With your MSM TL Calculator?

Fibreglass in kg/m^3 High Freq = around 40 (others say 60-80) Mid Freq = around 35 Low Freq = 20-25 Mineral Wool in kg/m^3 High Freq = around 65 (others say 90-120) Mid Freq = around 55 Low Freq = around 30 (others say 40-45)

It's possible to use rock wool? In Portugal it's more common selling rock wool instead of fibreglass or mineral wool. And it's more cheaper. A doubt: The walls in red will need more isolation, because the existing walls are thin and turned inside the house. The walls in blue are underground, thick and outside walls. My inner room needs the exact same density in all 4 walls? I will use drywall + viroc, but in the blue walls can I use only drywall? It would be a saving of 20m2 of viroc.

I know, it's only in sketchup. ;)

For an accurate build, your SketchUp needs to be as accurate as possible. I'd suggest fixing the drawing. It's easy in SketchUp!

How I know the resonant frequency of my wall? With your MSM TL Calculator?

Yes, that should be close! We can estimate that a wall system that has decent isolation will have a very low resonant frequency. Therefore, use insulation that is appropriate for very low frequencies.

It's possible to use rock wool? In Portugal it's more common selling rock wool instead of fibreglass or mineral wool. And it's more cheaper.

For sure! Fiberglass is way cheaper where I live.

A doubt: The walls in red will need more isolation, because the existing walls are thin and turned inside the house. The walls in blue are underground, thick and outside walls. My inner room needs the exact same density in all 4 walls? I will use drywall + viroc, but in the blue walls can I use only drywall? It would be a saving of 20m2 of viroc.

You cannot achieve more isolation on some walls and less on others. The surface densities required to achieve the minimum amount of isolation you need must be present everywhere. Therefore, your inner room does need the exact same density in all 4 walls AND the ceiling! Greg

For an accurate build, your SketchUp needs to be as accurate as possible. I'd suggest fixing the drawing. It's easy in SketchUp!

:thu:

You cannot achieve more isolation on some walls and less on others. The surface densities required to achieve the minimum amount of isolation you need must be present everywhere. Therefore, your inner room does need the exact same density in all 4 walls AND the ceiling!

Ok! But in some walls the insulated cavity between the outer room and inner room will be different, caused by the frame in the brick wall. This is a problem?

For sure! Fiberglass is way cheaper where I live.

Can you tell me the kg/m3 to low freq to rock wool?

Ok! But in some walls the insulated cavity between the outer room and inner room will be different, caused by the frame in the brick wall. This is a problem?

Not a problem. As long as the smallest cavity is still large enough to do the job, then it doesn't matter if the other cavities are deeper.

Can you tell me the kg/m3 to low freq to rock wool?

For mineral wool, you will need something around 50 kg/m3. For fiberglass, it would be around 30 kg/m3. - Stuart -

For mineral wool, you will need something around 50 kg/m3. For fiberglass, it would be around 30 kg/m3.

Mineral wool = Rock wool. In Portugal the same material as two different names... I understand now! This is the very first rough 2D design of the live room. I opted for 3 separate rooms: live room, vocal booth and a very small guitar booth (only to fit one or two Marshall cabinets, or a combo) Of course it will have doors, windows, etc! I'm going to start building the control room soon but I will buy all the materials for both rooms. So I need to budget all the materials. For now, before designing in 3D, I need to confirm that I'm on the right track.

I'd ditch the angled walls. I'd also ditch the guitar cab booth and make a great sounding vocal booth (by making the vocal booth bigger). Instead of using guitar cabs I'd save a ton of money and buy a load box and something like the Mooer Radar cab simulator pedal. Not only would a cab booth cost you money on doors, it makes for a way more complicated and more expensive HVAC system. To me, it has way more cons than pros. Greg

I'd ditch the angled walls.

Not a problem having parallel walls in a tiny room?

I'd also ditch the guitar cab booth and make a great sounding vocal booth (by making the vocal booth bigger). Instead of using guitar cabs I'd save a ton of money and buy a load box and something like the Mooer Radar cab simulator pedal. Not only would a cab booth cost you money on doors, it makes for a way more complicated and more expensive HVAC system. To me, it has way more cons than pros.

Once I've several good marshall cabs and vintage amps, this is my solutions to using them! I imagined using this booth to having a band playing all together in the live room but only miking the drums. I other hand, I like the idea of having a great sounding vocal booth. And I always have the possibility to build isolation boxes to marshall cabs and put them in the garage!

Once I've several good marshall cabs and vintage amps, this is my solutions to using them!

I own a lot of vintage high end amps too but for many years I've been using an AxeFx for most records. I captured IR's of all of my cabs that I load up if need be. I should just sell all of my amps but most have sentimental value. Using things like the AxeFx is such a great solution to tracking live off the floor if that's what you're going for. Don't get me wrong, I love capturing a "real" amp. But I personally wouldn't sacrifice a great vocal booth for it! With variable treatment in your vocal booth, it could be a deadly room to throw mics on a guitar cab upon overdub or reamping! Greg

Not a problem having parallel walls in a tiny room?

It's not a problem in ANY room! :) It's actually a myth that you need to angle walls. About the only reason you might want to is if you suspect that you will have a flutter echo problem, but then you would need to angle them by at least 12°... and you can fox flutter echo very easily with treatment that you would need in any case. Angling walls wastes space and makes it harder to build: right angle corners are easier! - Stuart -

But I personally wouldn't sacrifice a great vocal booth for it! With variable treatment in your vocal booth, it could be a deadly room to throw mics on a guitar cab upon overdub or reamping!

Great idea! It will be like you said! :D

It's not a problem in ANY room! :) It's actually a myth that you need to angle walls. About the only reason you might want to is if you suspect that you will have a flutter echo problem, but then you would need to angle them by at least 12°... and you can fox flutter echo very easily with treatment that you would need in any case. Angling walls wastes space and makes it harder to build: right angle corners are easier!

Of course! Make sense. :wink: So here's my new rough design: Even though I would like to have glass doors between the two rooms, the walls should be like this design or should have a two leaf wall in each room like this design below? (sorry the design is not good, but I think you understand the question)

I'm having troubles deciphering what is what in your picture. Do you want isolation for each room? You will want to build your rooms like this picture (the picture has 3 rooms, but the same concept applies to your 2 rooms): Greg

Here it is my Live Room/Vocal Booth! I decided to invert the plan, the Live Room will be close to the window to get natural light, and Vocal Booth will be underground. This Vocal Booth, with variable treatment, even will be good to play drums during the night! As you see I've two big concrete beams. How I handle with that? Can the ceiling be parallel to the floor? I forgot the idea of using Viroc. It's very heavy, it's very expensive and cannot be glued to the drywall. So I will use 2 boards in the control room and 3 boards in the live room / vocal booth.

As you see I've two big concrete beams. How I handle with that?

Simply building your inner leaf frame "around" (sorry if that's a broad silly term) the beams and have your inner leaf ceiling joists run in parallel with them. You can apply thick sheathing "around" the bottom of the beams and have the sheathing mounted to the joists. Basically, just make sure your surface density is maintained as well as the decoupling.

Can the ceiling be parallel to the floor?

Of course! We typically recommend building your inner leaf ceiling "inside out" so that you have insulation in your ceiling "modules". Greg

I think this is the end of this post. I will create a new one on construction forum. Now it's time to build!!! :yahoo: Stuart and Greg, many many thanks for all your help on my design. A year ago I did not know anything about studio construction (and I still do not know) and now I have the design of my own studio!!! Guys you rock :jammin: Also thanks for your dedication to this forum to keep it online after so many years.