Thanks for the info, I will see if I can find 1"MDF, otherwise I will do 2 layers of 1/2" or 5/8" instead. Also will look into swappint the 703 with duct liner as suggested. Thanks for the info. What about the baffle design? Do I need to maintain the surface area through out the baffle or do i need to reduce and expand at points other than the entrance and exit? Does it matter which face of the baffle box I place the exit register/grille?You need to have your silencer boxes maintain the surface density as your walls. Two layers of heavy 5/8" drywall is around the same surface density as 1" MDF. Also, 703 is not good to use as duct liner as it is not designed for this task. You should use real duct liner as it won't release particles into the air. GregI plan on using 3/4" MDF to build the box. 2" owens corning 703 or alternative material (studio foam?) for the insulation
Need help with vocal booth/ room dimensions
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 21547.
This was very informative and helpful. Thanks!As luck would have it, just a few minutes ago, I wrote up an explanation that covers most of your questions, in a response on another thread. So here's the link to that: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 6&start=45 Hopefully that covers it! :) - Stuart -
Until yesterday, I've always been under the impression that as soon as your inlet duct hits your silencer box, your cross sectional area must double. In a lot of my calculations, the cross sectional area required to achieve <300 ft/min air velocity ends up being less than double the inlet cross sectional area. So, yesterday, Stuart brought it to my attention (unless I didn't comprehend what he wrote) that your silencer box does not need an internal size that is double that of the inlet duct. As long as there is an impedance mismatch (duct size increase or decrease) somewhere along the path that happens at least a distance that equals 3 times the shortest dimension of your path. Ex: a 6" RD duct would require an impedance mismatch at least 18" from the duct register. Regardless, introducing the impedance mismatch would yield a pretty bizarre design. What I'm implying here is that to have the outlet on your silencer box all of a sudden be large, that tail end of the box would have to be big. Maybe I'm wrong here. I'm going to have to SketchUp a design like this to see how it would work. But if I'm understanding Stuart correctly, this could mean much smaller silencer boxes than I've initially designed! GregWhat about the baffle design? Do I need to maintain the surface area through out the baffle or do i need to reduce and expand at points other than the entrance and exit? Does it matter which face of the baffle box I place the exit register/grille?
Maybe I didn't explain that part too well: The cross section does, indeed, need to change drastically, to at least double (or half), at both ends of the silencer box (or at least one of them). I thought what I wrote was clear: " ... the silencer box. Once again, there's a general rule here, that the cross-sectional area must change suddenly by a factor of at least two, where the air enters the box and where it exists the box.", but I guess it could be misunderstood. The change can be more than half/double, if you want: for example, I sometimes do silencers where the air path splits in two immediately where the duct enters, or shortly after, and each of those paths is about twice the area of the duct, so I'm getting a four-fold change. The reason this works is simple: Wherever there is a large change in impedance, sound will be reflected back from that discontinuity almost as though it were a mirror, and since the phase is also flipped, the sound partially cancels itself out as it travels back the way it came. Of course, this is impedance, so the effect varies with frequency. But with a large, sudden change you can get pretty good effects down at low frequencies. However, the change has to be sudden. It's no use to have a long, slow change in area, such as with a funnel-shaped duct or sleeve: that would create a waveguide, which MATCHES the impedance.. Like what happens in a speaker, with the tweeter: long, slow smooth transition, to match the impedances. That's not what you want for a silencer: the change should be as abrupt as possible.Stuart brought it to my attention (unless I didn't comprehend what he wrote) that your silencer box does not need an internal size that is double that of the inlet duct.
I think you misunderstood that part completely. I was talking about turbulent flow and laminar flow, not impedance mismatches there. In other words, after the last "thing" in the duct that creates a lot of turbulence (such as a corner, for example), you need at least three times the shortest dimension of the duct for that turbulent flow to smooth over again and become more laminar. You do not want turbulent flow hitting a register, as that would create a LOT of air noise.As long as there is an impedance mismatch (duct size increase or decrease) somewhere along the path that happens at least a distance that equals 3 times the shortest dimension of your path. Ex: a 6" RD duct would require an impedance mismatch at least 18" from the duct register.
Without impedance mismatch, your insertion loss is going to suffer greatly: you won't get good attenuation down at low frequencies. Think of a motorbike exhaust, where some clever "mechanic" has modified the muffler by destroying parts of the internal structure: that kills the impedance mismatch, there is no longer any phase cancellation going on, and the sound coming out the end of the exhaust is much louder, especially at the piston and valve frequencies. The same would happen in your HVAC silencer boxes if there were no impedance mismatch. The design is not bizarre; it is simple. Just have a much larger cavity immediately following the point where the duct comes in.Regardless, introducing the impedance mismatch would yield a pretty bizarre design.
Well, at SOME point following the end of the silencer box, the duct MUST expand to be the same as the area of the register! If not, then you'll get serious air noise issues at the register. The basic concept is that the airflow arriving at the register should be laminar. It can't be laminar unless you have a long, straight section of the same size as the register, just before it. You cannot go direct from a round duct into a rectangular register, without generating a lot of turbulence, and hence a lot of noise. I'm going to do something I almost never do, but there's so much confusion here that it's probably the best: I'm going to share one of my proprietary designs for an HVAC silencer, and ask that people DO NOT copy it. If somebody wants a version customized for their own room, PM me and we can talk fees for doing that, since all rooms are different. Of course, unscrupulous, dishonest people WILL copy it anyway, but whatever... I'll risk it, and hope that there are still some honest people around... So here's what I'm talking about: That's the view from above of a silencer for the supply into a control room. This box sites in the ceiling cavity, between the inner leaf and outer leaf. There's an 8" round duct coming in (cross sectional area: 50 in2), and that expands immediately, since it goes from round section to square section. But then the flow splits two ways, each of which has a much larger cross section. There's three baffles down each "leg" of the silencer, then the airflow takes a dive down through a long sleeve that penetrates the inner-leaf ceiling, and terminates at the registers. Bottom view: There you can see the sleeves and the registers. Each register is 10" x 12", so 120 in2 nominally each, but more like about 100 in2 actual open area each, or 200 in2 total. So I have 50 in2 coming in, and 200 in2 going out. The velocity drops by a factor of four, the flow is laminar at the registers (long sleeve), and there are several impedance mismatches along the way (but I'm not going to say WHERE those are, as that's part of the mystery of the design... :) I chose my view angles carefully, so as to not reveal too much...). And yes, the static pressure penalty is high from such a design, but not as high as you'd think, because the paths are in parallel. I don't see anything "bizarre" about this. It works, very well, actually. - Stuart -that tail end of the box would have to be big.
Awesome. Thanks for sharing Stuart.
When I said bizarre, I referring to how strange the box design would have to be if it maintained a small 50 square inch interior dimension then at the outlet have to get super big (100+). Confirming that the size must at least double at entry voids that point entirely and I'm back to thinking about silencers as I did before. I think the confusion came between double the cross sectional area and the size it would need to be to achieve the proper air velocity. I suppose we should all be choosing whichever is larger.
And thanks for clarifying that the 3x the smallest dimension distance must happen after any turn, not just the impedance mismatch!
Cheers!
Greg
Due to budget constraints I would like to simplify my original design and overall sound isolation needs.
My main goal is to be able to track vocals in the booth and have minimal noise from the outside interfere with vocal tracking.
The loudest sound I have meaured in the space is 60db. People talking/laughing etc. would be louder than amy other noise generated in the space. Therefore, I don't feel that I need extreme isolation. I just need to be able to track vocals in the booth without vocals from the control room bleeding into the microphone.
With that being said... I also am thinking about using off the shelf sliding glass doors with an air gap of 6 to 12" between the frames holding the sliders. I do not want to spend thousands on specialized acoustic sliders.
My first question is, realistically, what STC do you think I would be able to achieve by doing this? Would I be able to achieve my goal of tracking vocals clean? Would I be still be able to hear noise from the booth in the control room while tracking and vis versa? (I will not be playing music back through the monitors while tracking vocals, I will use headphones)
Secondly, if I can achieve my goal this way, could I also get away with not doing the room in room design, or not doing the green glue between the 2 layers of drywall, or not doing 2 layers of drywall?
Long story short, how should i build my walls if I am going to use 2 standard sliding glass doors? I'm assuming I would be wasting my money by using 2 layers of dw with gg, and then installing 2 standard doors which would be my weak point.
Lastly, If I built an inside out vocal booth with drywall only on the outside of the frame and ceiling along with a 2nd separation wall between the control room and vocal booth (2 regular sliders bw CR and vocal booth) could I get by without installing a hard ceiling on the control room or vocal booth side? (The only hard ceiling would be the ceiling of the vocal booth.)
Please see diagram attached. (Note: outer layer of drywall for inside out vocal booth is not shown in the sketchup)
I am trying to figure out how I can dumb down my construction plans, but still achieve the level of isolation I am looking for to be able to record clean vocals. I am not concerned with noise leaving the control room as long as it doesnt bleed into the vocal booth microphone.
Please advise as I would like to order materials and begin construction as soon as possible!
Thank you!
Your plan is reasonable, if your primary goal is isolation of the vocal booth alone. That should give you fairly decent isolation, certainly enough to track most vocal situations, except maybe if there's a fire truck going past outside with the sirens on, or a helicopter flying overhead, or heavy rain / hail on the roof, and similar loud noises outside.
Fair enough. That can certainly get you quite decent isolation between the rooms. It won't be perfect, of course, but if you choose the sliders with care, and add additional seals yourself, it can be quite good.I also am thinking about using off the shelf sliding glass doors with an air gap of 6 to 12" between the frames holding the sliders. I do not want to spend thousands on specialized acoustic sliders.
Well, STC isn't a valid measurement for studio isolation (I can go into the reasons if you want, but basically it only measures a small part of the spectrum, then fudges the numbers to fit pre-defined curves that do not validly represent studio needs), but with that setup you should be able to get 40-something decibels of isolation.My first question is, realistically, what STC do you think I would be able to achieve by doing this?
Yes, very likely, with the above caveats: certain loud situations outside would be heard inside. Dull and muffled, for sure, but still there.Would I be able to achieve my goal of tracking vocals clean?
There would be some bleed, yes, but very little. If you keep the volume on the studio monitors down during tracking, it's unlikely that the sound would make it back into your mics in the booth.Would I be still be able to hear noise from the booth in the control room while tracking and vis versa?
You mean for the control room? What you are showing in your new layout is "room in a room" for the booth, but not for the control room. So even though it will be quiet inside the booth, suitable for most live recording needs, it won't be quiet inside the CR: External noises will easily make it into the CR, just as they wood with any typical house room: dogs outside, traffic, people talking, other sounds within the house, etc: all of those will be audible in the CR, but not in the booth.Secondly, if I can achieve my goal this way, could I also get away with not doing the room in room design, or not doing the green glue between the 2 layers of drywall, or not doing 2 layers of drywall?
Your diagram shows the correct way: beef up the existing outer-leaf wall around the area where the booth will be (including the new wall which will be the front of the control room), and build the new inner-leaf wall as a single stud frame with two layers of 5/8" drywall, preferably with GG in between. Ditto for the ceiling: beef up the existing ceiling, then build the new inner-leaf ceiling as a single joist frame with two layers of 5/8" drywall, preferably with GG in between.Long story short, how should i build my walls if I am going to use 2 standard sliding glass doors? I'm assuming I would be wasting my money by using 2 layers of dw with gg, and then installing 2 standard doors which would be my weak point.
Once again, that would provide decent isolation for the booth, but the control room would remain pretty much like a normal room in a typical house, without much isolation. Outside noises and house noises would be audible in the CR, and sound from the CR would be audible outside and around the house. With this plan, you are ONLY isolating the booth. Nothing else. - Stuart -Lastly, If I built an inside out vocal booth with drywall only on the outside of the frame and ceiling along with a 2nd separation wall between the control room and vocal booth (2 regular sliders bw CR and vocal booth) could I get by without installing a hard ceiling on the control room or vocal booth side? (The only hard ceiling would be the ceiling of the vocal booth.)
Thanks again for the advice and quick response. I really appreciate it!Your plan is reasonable, if your primary goal is isolation of the vocal booth alone. That should give you fairly decent isolation, certainly enough to track most vocal situations, except maybe if there's a fire truck going past outside with the sirens on, or a helicopter flying overhead, or heavy rain / hail on the roof, and similar loud noises outside. Yes I am not concerned with noise entering or leaving control room side, only trying to isolate vocal booth somehwhat for vocal tracking. I haven't been in the room during heavy rain, so that is something for me to think about.Fair enough. That can certainly get you quite decent isolation between the rooms. It won't be perfect, of course, but if you choose the sliders with care, and add additional seals yourself, it can be quite good. Awesome, I think this is the route I will proceed, I will look into beefing up the seals as you suggested.I also am thinking about using off the shelf sliding glass doors with an air gap of 6 to 12" between the frames holding the sliders. I do not want to spend thousands on specialized acoustic sliders.Well, STC isn't a valid measurement for studio isolation (I can go into the reasons if you want, but basically it only measures a small part of the spectrum, then fudges the numbers to fit pre-defined curves that do not validly represent studio needs), but with that setup you should be able to get 40-something decibels of isolation.My first question is, realistically, what STC do you think I would be able to achieve by doing this?Yes, very likely, with the above caveats: certain loud situations outside would be heard inside. Dull and muffled, for sure, but still there. This sounds reasonable for my needsWould I be able to achieve my goal of tracking vocals clean?There would be some bleed, yes, but very little. If you keep the volume on the studio monitors down during tracking, it's unlikely that the sound would make it back into your mics in the booth. Ok cool, I can live with thatWould I be still be able to hear noise from the booth in the control room while tracking and vis versa?You mean for the control room? What you are showing in your new layout is "room in a room" for the booth, but not for the control room. So even though it will be quiet inside the booth, suitable for most live recording needs, it won't be quiet inside the CR: External noises will easily make it into the CR, just as they wood with any typical house room: dogs outside, traffic, people talking, other sounds within the house, etc: all of those will be audible in the CR, but not in the booth. Yes, just to clarify the control room side has a drop ceiling, I was thinking about leaving the outer leaf of the vocal booth side open (no ceiling) and only installing a hard inside out ceiling (double dw with green glue) on the vocal booth. But I wasnt sure if not having a ceiling on the outer leaf on the vocal booth side would defeat the purpose of having the double drywall and green glueSecondly, if I can achieve my goal this way, could I also get away with not doing the room in room design, or not doing the green glue between the 2 layers of drywall, or not doing 2 layers of drywall?Your diagram shows the correct way: beef up the existing outer-leaf wall around the area where the booth will be (including the new wall which will be the front of the control room), and build the new inner-leaf wall as a single stud frame with two layers of 5/8" drywall, preferably with GG in between. Ditto for the ceiling: beef up the existing ceiling, then build the new inner-leaf ceiling as a single joist frame with two layers of 5/8" drywall, preferably with GG in between. Can I get by without a ceiling on the outer leaf? Or is it a must?Long story short, how should i build my walls if I am going to use 2 standard sliding glass doors? I'm assuming I would be wasting my money by using 2 layers of dw with gg, and then installing 2 standard doors which would be my weak point.Once again, that would provide decent isolation for the booth, but the control room would remain pretty much like a normal room in a typical house, without much isolation. Outside noises and house noises would be audible in the CR, and sound from the CR would be audible outside and around the house. With this plan, you are ONLY isolating the booth. Nothing else. As long as noises from the control room will not bleed into the microphone in the vocal booth I would be ok with that. Not concerned with CR isolation. I only want to isolate the vocal booth. Do I need a hard ceiling on the outer and inner leaf? or can I get by with leaving the outer leaf roofless and only doing hard ceiling on vocal booth? - Stuart -Lastly, If I built an inside out vocal booth with drywall only on the outside of the frame and ceiling along with a 2nd separation wall between the control room and vocal booth (2 regular sliders bw CR and vocal booth) could I get by without installing a hard ceiling on the control room or vocal booth side? (The only hard ceiling would be the ceiling of the vocal booth.)
If you don't entirely seal and beef up your outer leaf, you are basically building a single wall with a single mass. It will provide very poor isolation. The control room side outer leaf wall should go right to the ceiling. Make that room air tight. Then build your new booth inner leaf inside of that. Air tight with your HVAC silencers installed accordingly. That's how you will achieve the isolation values Stuart is giving you. Otherwise you'll only ever be able to achieve the same or slightly better than a normal wall in your house which obviously isn't remotely studio calibre.
Greg
Thanks, I knew that answer was coming!
I will construct it accordingly!
Next question... will either of these fans be suitable for my hvac needs?
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Hydro-Crunc ... /302930033
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Inductor-6- ... /100067594
I calculated previously that i need about 60cfm and a 6" duct is capable of 100cfm
Will using a fan that pulls 240cfm cause issues if I only need 60 cfm?
I want to make sure I get the right type and size fan for the exhaust side of the vocal booth ventilation.
I was planning on having the baffle box in between the outer and inner shell (in between the rooms), and have the exhaust fan outside the outer shell
Any input on my last post about the exhaust fan?
Maybe try to get variable speed fan. Running those ones on a dimmer switch would probably create a lot of noise. I'd try to find a smaller fan. That's wicked cheap though.
Greg
Thanks for the input, ill try to find another fan!
_________________________________________________________
I have one more question before I feel comfortable with starting the framing...
Right now I have a drop ceiling in the control room portion of the studio (not concerned with sound isolation, just want good room ratio). My question is, when calculating height of this room, would my height be the distance from the floor to the drop ceiling? (92") or would it actually be the distance of from the floor to the roof above the drop ceiling? (10 feet)
The answer to this question may cause me to change my design a bit.
Right now, if the height is 92" my conflict would be that the h and width would be within 5% of each other.
(w x l x h = 187 x x 217" x 92")
no integer multiple within 5%: Fail (ratio2 = ratio1 * 2)
However, if I am supposed to calculate the height as 10 ft then I would be fine.
On the other hand, If the room height is supposed to be calculated from floor to drop ceiling then I could remove the drop ceiling tiles and insert a false ceiling (breathable fabric?) as the ceiling so that the room mode height would now be 10 ft.
1) which height am I supposed to use for the room mode calculation
2) What do you suggest I do for the ceiling solution? (I do not want to install a hard ceiling in this room)
Please advise! Thank you
Two main things to check when choosing the fan: 1) It has the correct capacity. In other words, it can move the RIGHT amount of air for YOUR room, and 2) It can move that amount of air when facing the static pressure imposed by YOUR ventilation system. In other words, the "resistance" that the ducts, silencers, registers, dampers, filter, etc. impose, all together. So, for example, if your static pressure is 0.5 in. in your system, and you need to move 250 CFM to get the correct flow, then make sure the fan can do that! Check the actual data sheet for the fan. Just because it is advertised as "250 CFM" does NOT mean that it can actually move 250 CFM. It means that wen they tested the fan at the factory with NO load, that's how much air it moved, in free space, best case. There should also be a data sheet that tells you how much it can move for all other static pressures, and what the maximum static pressure is, that it can handle. So if the data sheet lists 0.35 in. as the max static pressure, and the real static pressure of your system is going to be 0.5 in., then that fan is no use! Even if it can move more air than you need, it is still no use because it cannot deal with that static pressure. IF you tried to use it, the fan blades would stall, the airflow through them would be turbulent and inefficient, the fan motor will over-speed, overheat, and eventually burn out. This is important. You can't just use any old fan because it is cheap, or because you like the looks: it has to be able to do the job.Thanks for the input, ill try to find another fan!
Always, always to the hard, solid, massive, rigid, barrier surface of the room. Not the drop ceiling, or the closet door, or the acoustic treatment: All the way to the actual wall, floor, and ceiling boundary. Your isolation walls have to go all the way up that same hard, solid, rigid, massive boundary as well. Greg already mentioned this, but I'm just reminding you! :) The general rule for control rooms is very simple: "Hard floor, soft ceiling". So your floor should be something very solid, such as concrete (best possible thing!), or maybe ceramic tiles, or linoleum, or even laminated flooring on top of the concrete. Never carpet. And the ceiling should be mostly thick insulation, perhaps with something over it to improve high frequency response. - Stuart -when calculating height of this room, would my height be the distance from the floor to the drop ceiling? (92") or would it actually be the distance of from the floor to the roof above the drop ceiling? (10 feet)
Thanks for the quick response!
Ill have to look into how to calculate the static pressure...
Thanks for answering the question about the height.
Should i use roxul safe n sound covered by fabric for the ceiling? Or should I use something lighter/less dense/cheaper as far as the ceiling insulation is concerned?
Ugh... just when I think I've got it figured out... I just started demo on the rear wall and found out that there is not an outer layer of drywall on the other side of the framing as I initially assumed.
on the sides of the room (running the length) there is a small air gap between the drywall framing, and then a concrete mass (not sure how airtight this is without removing all of the drywall and seeing. (I would rather not do this if possible)
Behind the rear wall there is nothing but unused warehouse space.
I have attached an image to help clarify what I am trying to explain.
After this discovery I have a number of questions:
1) The cement wall will create a 3rd leaf, how much will my sound isolation suffer if i leave my plan as is, knowing there will be a 3rd leaf (cement wall) running the length of the room only? (there isn't a 3rd leaf in the front and back of the room)
2) Am I better off removing the drywall and framing on the length of the vocal booth and outer shell (room in room section of the plan) and running the front and back drywall framing to the extent of the cement wall to create my room in room? (front and back wall of outer shell would be drywall framing. Sides of outer shell would be the cement wall that I discovered?
3) Since there isnt an outer drywall layer, I now am thinking about having the drywall on the separation wall exisitng on the side of the framing facing the vocal booth, instead of the side of the framing facing the control room. This means my construction plan from control room wall to vocal booth would be ... the front wall of my control room would be fabric > framing & insulation > 5/8 DW > air gap > 5/8 DW > green glue > 5/8 DW > framing & insulation > fabric in vocal booth
Is this acceptable or would it cause any issues that you can think of?
4) Are there any other design concerns i should consider?
Thank you in advance!
This is pretty standard construction practice. It's often referred to as a frost wall.on the sides of the room (running the length) there is a small air gap between the drywall framing, and then a concrete mass (not sure how airtight this is without removing all of the drywall and seeing. (I would rather not do this if possible)
So you'll need to build an outer leaf wall to separate your space and theres right?Behind the rear wall there is nothing but unused warehouse space.
Use the cement wall as your outer leaf. Simple. Awesome.1) The cement wall will create a 3rd leaf, how much will my sound isolation suffer if i leave my plan as is, knowing there will be a 3rd leaf (cement wall) running the length of the room only? (there isn't a 3rd leaf in the front and back of the room)
I don't fully understand what you're trying to explain, but I think what you're trying to explain is correct. The wall between your control room and booth should extended to the concrete to complete the room in a room design for your booth. You can do whatever you want with your control room since isolation is not a priority there. With it, you just have to worry about the room treatment.2) Am I better off removing the drywall and framing on the length of the vocal booth and outer shell (room in room section of the plan) and running the front and back drywall framing to the extent of the cement wall to create my room in room? (front and back wall of outer shell would be drywall framing. Sides of outer shell would be the cement wall that I discovered?
What you're describing is inside out construction for both the control room and booth. That's fine.3) Since there isnt an outer drywall layer, I now am thinking about having the drywall on the separation wall exisitng on the side of the framing facing the vocal booth, instead of the side of the framing facing the control room. This means my construction plan from control room wall to vocal booth would be ... the front wall of my control room would be fabric > framing & insulation > 5/8 DW > air gap > 5/8 DW > green glue > 5/8 DW > framing & insulation > fabric in vocal booth Is this acceptable or would it cause any issues that you can think of?
- I can't remember if it was discussed, but the one side of the booth that doesn't have a silencer on it seems like wasted space. Is it wasted simply due to room ratios? - Did you situated the silencers there due to existing infrastructure? Or why there? Are you tapping into the existing air handling unit or what? - Just because I'm picky, I'd suggest that you try to remove the guidelines in your design as they really clutter up the project ;-) - Having your speakers on your desk like that is frowned upon. You probably should have them on heavy rigid stands right up against the wall (providing you do actually build that wall inside out, you won't necessarily need to put 4" insulation behind the speakers). - Is that a diffuser on your control room's rear wall? You room looks too short to utilize such a device. You need it to be at least 10 ft (some people say further) away from your head. Maybe it is that far from YOUR head, but it will certainly destroy your clients listening experience on the client couch! - Are you having your control room rear wall filled with insulation or hangers? - Your booth outer leaf wall (the one on the control room side) should be drawn to show that it will go all the way to the ceiling of the room. That SHOULD be as high as your concrete walls! - What is your final plan for the inner leaf ceiling in your booth? - What are you doing for electrical? Where are lights and outlets going? Have you looked into ensuring no noise will be introduced into your system when your air handling unit kicks in or turns off? - You haven't indicated in your diagram where and how you will pass low voltage signal to and from the booth (Mic lines, headphone lines, CAT6e lines) Glad to see your design and everything coming together! Greg4) Are there any other design concerns i should consider?
This is pretty standard construction practice. It's often referred to as a frost wall.on the sides of the room (running the length) there is a small air gap between the drywall framing, and then a concrete mass (not sure how airtight this is without removing all of the drywall and seeing. (I would rather not do this if possible)So you'll need to build an outer leaf wall to separate your space and theres right? The rear wall shown in the picture i posted in the last post is actually the wall that is separating the two spaces. Initially I thought this wall had drywall on both sides, but it only has drywall on the side facing my room. The backside is open frame (with no insulation- I have to add that). I was planning on simply making sure that wall was airtight and then adding insulation in between the framing (behind the drywall).Behind the rear wall there is nothing but unused warehouse space.Use the cement wall as your outer leaf. Simple. Awesome. I was hoping I could keep the existing framing and drywall that is already in the room. If I did, how much would my isolation be affected? If it is a major issue, then I will remove the 2 side walls and extend the front and back walls to the cement wall to make my outer leaf1) The cement wall will create a 3rd leaf, how much will my sound isolation suffer if i leave my plan as is, knowing there will be a 3rd leaf (cement wall) running the length of the room only? (there isn't a 3rd leaf in the front and back of the room)I don't fully understand what you're trying to explain, but I think what you're trying to explain is correct. The wall between your control room and booth should extended to the concrete to complete the room in a room design for your booth. You can do whatever you want with your control room since isolation is not a priority there. With it, you just have to worry about the room treatment. Ok, It sounds like we are saying the same thing here. My only worry is that this is a very old building and there may be some large holes/gaps in the cement wall behind it, I have no clue what kind of shape its in without removing the framing and drywall, which I was planning on reusing as is (seal gaps with caulk) in order to save money on the build2) Am I better off removing the drywall and framing on the length of the vocal booth and outer shell (room in room section of the plan) and running the front and back drywall framing to the extent of the cement wall to create my room in room? (front and back wall of outer shell would be drywall framing. Sides of outer shell would be the cement wall that I discovered?What you're describing is inside out construction for both the control room and booth. That's fine. Ok, Thanks for the confirmation3) Since there isnt an outer drywall layer, I now am thinking about having the drywall on the separation wall exisitng on the side of the framing facing the vocal booth, instead of the side of the framing facing the control room. This means my construction plan from control room wall to vocal booth would be ... the front wall of my control room would be fabric > framing & insulation > 5/8 DW > air gap > 5/8 DW > green glue > 5/8 DW > framing & insulation > fabric in vocal booth Is this acceptable or would it cause any issues that you can think of?- I can't remember if it was discussed, but the one side of the booth that doesn't have a silencer on it seems like wasted space. Is it wasted simply due to room ratios? Initially I had the other silencer there, but I am going to relocate it to thefront so that I am not blocking the vent with the corner bass trap. I will probably end up extending the length of the booth in this direction - Did you situated the silencers there due to existing infrastructure? Or why there? Are you tapping into the existing air handling unit or what? there is a ductless ac on the wall in the control room. My plan was to intake cold air from the register in control room > pass through outer shell > baffle box > inner shell > register to vocal booth. Caulk around all the entry/exit points. THe exhaust would be the same concept except I will not exhaust back into control room. I will probably exhaust back into the dead space behind the rear wall because it is not being used for anything (rough shape - kind of a haunting feeling back there - haha. I don't see that space becoming habitable without lots of work and money being put into it by the landlord) - Just because I'm picky, I'd suggest that you try to remove the guidelines in your design as they really clutter up the project ;-) - Having your speakers on your desk like that is frowned upon. You probably should have them on heavy rigid stands right up against the wall (providing you do actually build that wall inside out, you won't necessarily need to put 4" insulation behind the speakers). - Is that a diffuser on your control room's rear wall? You room looks too short to utilize such a device. You need it to be at least 10 ft (some people say further) away from your head. Maybe it is that far from YOUR head, but it will certainly destroy your clients listening experience on the client couch! The total length of the control room, if you include the space in the front which I planto use bass hangers or stuff with insulation to tame the low end, would be 19ft. I should have more than 10ft between rear wall and my listening position. However, I certainly won't for the couch. Should I just skip the diffuser? - Are you having your control room rear wall filled with insulation or hangers? I am going to make that decision based on most cost effective solution. I will place a breathable fabric in front of the exposed framing shown. What would your suggestion be for insulation vs. hangers ? - Your booth outer leaf wall (the one on the control room side) should be drawn to show that it will go all the way to the ceiling of the room. That SHOULD be as high as your concrete walls! There is a sprinkler system that I can't cover up. The outer shell ceiling will be installed using a metal grid suspended from the ceiling, drywall attached to the underside of the suspended grid (total height will be around 102"). - What is your final plan for the inner leaf ceiling in your booth? I was going to make frame the inner ceiling with 2x4's. I will most likely have to create a grid to lift smaller modules into place. I can come up with a drawing to share on here for review. As far as ceiling module size. Is there a recommended size (l x w) to keep the modules under for weight/safety reasons (will be probably be a 3 person job, 2 people lift in place, one person nail/screw into place) The ceiling will be 2 layers dw with gg in between. I would need them to be liftable by 2 people. - What are you doing for electrical? Where are lights and outlets going? Have you looked into ensuring no noise will be introduced into your system when your air handling unit kicks in or turns off? I plan on creating an s shaped pvc tunnel to pass all electrical from control room to vocal booth. With a rubber seal in the middle of the S to break up the 2 pieces of pvc and reduce flanking path. I saw an example of this some where on this forum. As far as testing the noise, how would I go about doing that? I am not understanding you there? - You haven't indicated in your diagram where and how you will pass low voltage signal to and from the booth (Mic lines, headphone lines, CAT6e lines) Glad to see your design and everything coming together! Thanks for all the help, couldn't do it (correctly) without you guys! Greg4) Are there any other design concerns i should consider?
Just a bump as I plan on continuing demo tomorrow and would like some advice on how to proceed.
Would keeping the walls as is be a big no no, or should I definitely remove the side walls and use the cement walls (frost wall) as the outer leaf.
Also, does my ceiling plan sound ok?
Do you mean like t-bar ceiling with square little ceiling tiles in it? If so, no. This won't work. Those tiles are light and so is the tin skeleton. You need rigid mass. You have to post some pictures of your ceiling so we see what you're working with.Also, does my ceiling plan sound ok? There is a sprinkler system that I can't cover up. The outer shell ceiling will be installed using a metal grid suspended from the ceiling, drywall attached to the underside of the suspended grid (total height will be around 102").
Don't keep them.Would keeping the walls as is be a big no no, or should I definitely remove the side walls and use the cement walls (frost wall) as the outer leaf.
- Figure out exactly where your booth other leaf wall between it and the control room will be. - Cut the existing wood frame there and remove the booth area section. You can reuse most of this wood (at least the studs). Remove all of the ceiling material from this same booth area. - Build a wall floor to CEILING (the actual building ceiling). Be sure to seal the connections of your wall around the entire perimeter. And don't forget to frame in your door ;-) -secure some OSB or drywall to whatever the actual ceiling of your building is. Seal all of it. I understand that you might have that main sprinkler system in there. Legally, if you have to keep it, then you cannot cover it. You'll have to live with the fact that it will be the weak link in your transmission loss scheme. Just make sure to leave a small (1/8") gap around it when you put drywall up in which you will fill with Green Glue Sealant. If the gap is any larger you will probably have to use backer rod, then the sealant. You're probably smart to do that on both the inner and outer leaf to make sure you don't have any flanking. - Assuming you have figured out exactly where your fresh air is coming in and your stale air is going out, build and install your outer leaf silencer boxes including the sleeves that will penetrate your walls. - After that (I think your plan is to do both those walls inside out), as I said, put your drywall up on your outer leaf partition wall. Seal it all up. - Now I'm going off of memory here, and we didn't 110% confirm that I understood you, but I believe you will have to build another partition wall for your outer leaf between your room and the storage creepy place behind your booth right? So, build that wall exactly like you build the one on your control room side of your booth (minus the door). Seal it all. - Now, you should have an air tight outer leaf (minus your door). Here, you can run your electrical and your low voltage conduit. - Next, frame up your inner leaf walls and if you're doing inside out, you'll be building them in modules. Make sure to bolt the modules together for structural integrity. In this process, you will probably have to install your inner leaf silencers as they will penetrate 2 of your modules. The same goes for your low voltage and electrical. Seal everything every step of the way. - Next, take in your LVL stud. If you feel that the stud will be too long to get in at this stage, you should take it in and store it down the long length of your room before your outer leaf drywall goes up. - Put your studs on top of your walls, anchor them. Seal them. - Build your ceiling modules, install them. Seal them well. - Now you should have a complete inner leaf (minus door) - Install your sliding doors. Seal them. Sort out electrical fixtures (assuming you're doing surface mount). Sort out acoustic treatment. Done. I probably screwed something up or forgot a bunch. But you said you needed some assurance regarding demo, so hopefully that helps. GregI plan on continuing demo tomorrow and would like some advice on how to proceed.
Do you mean like t-bar ceiling with square little ceiling tiles in it? If so, no. This won't work. Those tiles are light and so is the tin skeleton. You need rigid mass. You have to post some pictures of your ceiling so we see what you're working with. No I mean a drywall supsension grid. Something like this https://www.strictlyceilings.com/Conten ... System.jpgAlso, does my ceiling plan sound ok? There is a sprinkler system that I can't cover up. The outer shell ceiling will be installed using a metal grid suspended from the ceiling, drywall attached to the underside of the suspended grid (total height will be around 102").Don't keep them.Would keeping the walls as is be a big no no, or should I definitely remove the side walls and use the cement walls (frost wall) as the outer leaf.- Figure out exactly where your booth other leaf wall between it and the control room will be. - Cut the existing wood frame there and remove the booth area section. You can reuse most of this wood (at least the studs). Remove all of the ceiling material from this same booth area. - Build a wall floor to CEILING (the actual building ceiling). Be sure to seal the connections of your wall around the entire perimeter. And don't forget to frame in your door ;-) The ceiling is the underside of one of those wavy roof things (kind of looks like a wavy potato chip), plus there are I beams, sprinkler pipes, etc. running underneath the ceiling. Would be a major pain in the butt to try and run drywall all the way up to the ceiling and create an airtight seal. I will probably have to create my outershell ceiling below the fire sprinkler system. This will create a 3rd leaf though... -secure some OSB or drywall to whatever the actual ceiling of your building is. Seal all of it. I understand that you might have that main sprinkler system in there. Legally, if you have to keep it, then you cannot cover it. You'll have to live with the fact that it will be the weak link in your transmission loss scheme. Just make sure to leave a small (1/8") gap around it when you put drywall up in which you will fill with Green Glue Sealant. If the gap is any larger you will probably have to use backer rod, then the sealant. You're probably smart to do that on both the inner and outer leaf to make sure you don't have any flanking. - Assuming you have figured out exactly where your fresh air is coming in and your stale air is going out, build and install your outer leaf silencer boxes including the sleeves that will penetrate your walls. - After that (I think your plan is to do both those walls inside out), as I said, put your drywall up on your outer leaf partition wall. Seal it all up. - Now I'm going off of memory here, and we didn't 110% confirm that I understood you, but I believe you will have to build another partition wall for your outer leaf between your room and the storage creepy place behind your booth right? So, build that wall exactly like you build the one on your control room side of your booth (minus the door). Seal it all. - Now, you should have an air tight outer leaf (minus your door). Here, you can run your electrical and your low voltage conduit. - Next, frame up your inner leaf walls and if you're doing inside out, you'll be building them in modules. Make sure to bolt the modules together for structural integrity. In this process, you will probably have to install your inner leaf silencers as they will penetrate 2 of your modules. The same goes for your low voltage and electrical. Seal everything every step of the way. - Next, take in your LVL stud. If you feel that the stud will be too long to get in at this stage, you should take it in and store it down the long length of your room before your outer leaf drywall goes up. I'll post some ceiling plans this week to get some feedback on this - Put your studs on top of your walls, anchor them. Seal them. - Build your ceiling modules, install them. Seal them well. - Now you should have a complete inner leaf (minus door) - Install your sliding doors. Seal them. Sort out electrical fixtures (assuming you're doing surface mount). Sort out acoustic treatment. Done. I probably screwed something up or forgot a bunch. But you said you needed some assurance regarding demo, so hopefully that helps. GregI plan on continuing demo tomorrow and would like some advice on how to proceed.
Gotcha. That might be your best bet then. Either way, everything else I wrote still stands. GregThe ceiling is the underside of one of those wavy roof things (kind of looks like a wavy potato chip), plus there are I beams, sprinkler pipes, etc. running underneath the ceiling. Would be a major pain in the butt to try and run drywall all the way up to the ceiling and create an airtight seal. I will probably have to create my outershell ceiling below the fire sprinkler system. This will create a 3rd leaf though...
Here are some images of the ceiling/roof above the drop ceiling that I removed so you can get a better idea of what I am dealing with.
1) There are nails through the roof, I'm pretty sure this is a source of some water drops I have seen while it was raining hard outside. Could i spray around these nails with the expandable foam insulation to prevent future leaks?
2) You can see the wavy roof, would be hard to make an air tight seal unless i used a spray foam type application between the ridges. (but this would still probably lead to some transmission loss, weak point in the outer shell.
I also attached a couple pictures of the frost wall. As you can see, there are some holes in this wall, and even a section that has been cutout (control room side). Im afraid of what I might find if i open up the drywall on the opposite side of the wall. I know keeping the drywall will create a 3rd leaf, but after seeing the shape of the cement frost wall, should I just use the drywall layer as my outer shell instead of the cement wall?
Sealing holes like that is typically a lot harder than spraying some foam crap on them. You should really tell your landlord about it as the building is his responsibility, not yours. I know for sea cans, to fix holes, they either weld up the little holes or cut out and replace larger squares of metal (again by welding new patches on).1) There are nails through the roof, I'm pretty sure this is a source of some water drops I have seen while it was raining hard outside. Could i spray around these nails with the expandable foam insulation to prevent future leaks?
Again, you're probably right to build a ceiling under all that crap. However, I'm not sure you'd pass a building permit if you told them you were covering up the fire suppression components. Since this is in a commercial location, are you going to applying for permits?2) You can see the wavy roof, would be hard to make an air tight seal unless i used a spray foam type application between the ridges. (but this would still probably lead to some transmission loss, weak point in the outer shell.
No. Rip it down and do it right. GregI know keeping the drywall will create a 3rd leaf, but after seeing the shape of the cement frost wall, should I just use the drywall layer as my outer shell instead of the cement wall?
Sealing holes like that is typically a lot harder than spraying some foam crap on them. You should really tell your landlord about it as the building is his responsibility, not yours. I know for sea cans, to fix holes, they either weld up the little holes or cut out and replace larger squares of metal (again by welding new patches on). Yeah I agree, I've reached out to the landlord, awaiting his reply...1) There are nails through the roof, I'm pretty sure this is a source of some water drops I have seen while it was raining hard outside. Could i spray around these nails with the expandable foam insulation to prevent future leaks?Again, you're probably right to build a ceiling under all that crap. However, I'm not sure you'd pass a building permit if you told them you were covering up the fire suppression components. Since this is in a commercial location, are you going to applying for permits? I ran the plan by the landlord and he said it shouldnt be a problem since themajority of that roomis drop ceiling, only the vocal booth section is drywall ceiling and the area was small enough to be ok.2) You can see the wavy roof, would be hard to make an air tight seal unless i used a spray foam type application between the ridges. (but this would still probably lead to some transmission loss, weak point in the outer shell.No. Rip it down and do it right. Ok, thanks for the input GregI know keeping the drywall will create a 3rd leaf, but after seeing the shape of the cement frost wall, should I just use the drywall layer as my outer shell instead of the cement wall?