Studio build in Wales, UK...again!

Several issues I see, some of which you already addressed, but some not... Color code: BLUE LINES: You are missing a wall here! That's part of your outer-leaf wall, and you do need to complete the envelope. RED CIRCLES: Because you need to add the wall, you also need to double-up on those doors. Meaning you will have to flip the sense of the one into the LR, which also introduces the issue of a clash with the double doors... GREEN CIRCLE: Double doors are a problem: It's hard to get a good seal on the vertical joint between them when closed. I'd suggest with going for a larger single door, or maybe sliding glass doors. With a very large single door there's the problem of weight: a massive door that is also very wide puts huge stresses and strains on the hinges, and also on the framing around it. As it opens and closes, it tends to bend and twist the framing, which could eventually lead to sagging, binding, and loss of seal integrity. You need to beef up the framing big-time around large doors, and use several heavy-duty hinges, with long screws that mount deep into the studs. ORANGE CIRCLES: Do you really need those doors to the outside world? Doors are a potential weak point, and are expensive. Don't put in doors that you don't absolutely need. You have 16 doors in there right now (including the new ones I mentioned above). Even if you manage to build them for just US$ 500 each, that's still eight thousand dollars you are spending on doors alone. I don't know how good your budget is, and maybe 8 grand is not an issue, but if you need to save money, then eliminating those doors would save you at least 2 grand. I haven't read trough the rest of yoru thread yet, and maybe you already addressed these, but that's what I noticed at first glance on the diagram. There's also something very weird going on with your soffits that I don't understand at all, so I'll do some reading now, before commenting on that... - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

Several issues I see, some of which you already addressed, but some not...

Not preserved: WALES-Studio Redesign-problems.png

Color code: BLUE LINES: You are missing a wall here! That's part of your outer-leaf wall, and you do need to complete the envelope. RED CIRCLES: Because you need to add the wall, you also need to double-up on those doors. Meaning you will have to flip the sense of the one into the LR, which also introduces the issue of a clash with the double doors... GREEN CIRCLE: Double doors are a problem: It's hard to get a good seal on the vertical joint between them when closed. I'd suggest with going for a larger single door, or maybe sliding glass doors. With a very large single door there's the problem of weight: a massive door that is also very wide puts huge stresses and strains on the hinges, and also on the framing around it. As it opens and closes, it tends to bend and twist the framing, which could eventually lead to sagging, binding, and loss of seal integrity. You need to beef up the framing big-time around large doors, and use several heavy-duty hinges, with long screws that mount deep into the studs. ORANGE CIRCLES: Do you really need those doors to the outside world? Doors are a potential weak point, and are expensive. Don't put in doors that you don't absolutely need. You have 16 doors in there right now (including the new ones I mentioned above). Even if you manage to build them for just US$ 500 each, that's still eight thousand dollars you are spending on doors alone. I don't know how good your budget is, and maybe 8 grand is not an issue, but if you need to save money, then eliminating those doors would save you at least 2 grand. I haven't read trough the rest of yoru thread yet, and maybe you already addressed these, but that's what I noticed at first glance on the diagram. There's also something very weird going on with your soffits that I don't understand at all, so I'll do some reading now, before commenting on that... - Stuart -

Hi Stuart, good to have your help - your opinions are extremely valued in my books, so thank you for your help as always. I've attached my latest design which does fix some of the issues you've mentioned - apart from the extra wall in the hallway. I was wondering if you could you explain to me why this wall is absolutely necessary and why I can't simply use the hallway as my air gap between the two walls? I've seen a lot of studios that are designed like this, though that doesn't say much as there are many with poor design. I just want to know the reason why it's wrong? The image which you corrected was just to show all the different possibilities of where I could put doors, just to explore my options. The soffit was not complete in that image and since speaking with Greg have adjusted the design - I am fighting between sight lines and speaker placement - your help would be appreciated here. Thanks again

And here's a layout with a few additional changes. - added extra wall in the hallway - all internal walls are now using 4x2s - removed a few unnecessary windows and doors - added a bit more length to the live room entrance - swapped some doors for sliding glass doors - swapped wrap around window for normal straight window How's it looking?

How's it looking?

:thu: Much better! I'm liking that layout. nice! - Stuart -

BTW, regarding the angled wings... if you take a look at the floor layouts for a dozen well known control rooms a lot of them have splayed walls, not treatment but the actual walls. Even in some of Johns designs as well as storyk's designs theres an abundance in wall splaying going on. So it is not out of the ordinary to splay the walls, but it is more unusual to splay the acoustic treatment or resonators it would seem. Having said that, I prefer the idea of splaying the acoustic walls, it makes it a whole load easier for me.

It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish! There are reasons for splaying walls, and reasons for splaying treatment... and even reasons for splaying both! Also, when you look at photos of studios, things might not always be the way they look: you might be looking at a surface that looks solid but isn't, or even one that does not look solid, but is! Designers use lots of tricks, both acoustic and visual. For example, in this studio: None of the room surfaces you see are solid! :) - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

How's it looking?

:thu: Much better! I'm liking that layout. nice! - Stuart -

Thanks Stuart - you do not know what kind of relief approval from someone like yourself means to me! How about the room dimensions? Do they at least look OK given the size of the space I have to work with? RE: Angles. Yeah, studios are deceptive but I was referring to actual blue prints where you can see walls vs treatment, and like you pointed out there are many with splayed walls and may with splayed treatment etc. I think I am better off keeping my walls straight, at least in my CR since I will already have the vaulted ceiling to contend with when trying to work out room modes... and of course the best way is to actually measure the room once it's constructed. Basically, if the room dimensions and layout look good enough to build to get me to the measuring stage then I'm happy - just don't want to build these rooms and then realising after that I Could have avoided a lot of modal issues if I had built them with different dimensions. Thanks for your help!

Paulus87 wrote:

And here's a layout with a few additional changes. - added extra wall in the hallway - all internal walls are now using 4x2s - removed a few unnecessary windows and doors - added a bit more length to the live room entrance - swapped some doors for sliding glass doors - swapped wrap around window for normal straight window How's it looking?

It looks awesome now dude! You could still have that extra fire escape exit through your machine room if you're willing to build the 2 extra doors. I know you're maybe a bit bummed about the straight front window, but it will be much easier to build and it will still look super awesome! It sure has changed since your initial design, but man, what an improvement! Great work! Greg

Gregwor wrote:

Paulus87 wrote:

And here's a layout with a few additional changes. - added extra wall in the hallway - all internal walls are now using 4x2s - removed a few unnecessary windows and doors - added a bit more length to the live room entrance - swapped some doors for sliding glass doors - swapped wrap around window for normal straight window How's it looking?

It looks awesome now dude! You could still have that extra fire escape exit through your machine room if you're willing to build the 2 extra doors. I know you're maybe a bit bummed about the straight front window, but it will be much easier to build and it will still look super awesome! It sure has changed since your initial design, but man, what an improvement! Great work! Greg

Hey Greg, thanks a lot for your kind words and for all your help thus far. Can you see any more improvements worth considering? Especially concerning the dimensions of the rooms? I'll be clearing everything out of my future control room this coming week ready for the work to begin, I'll update with pics when I can :)

Can you see any more improvements worth considering?

The only things I can suggest are to: - do ray tracing and post those pictures - build it in 3d now. Draw each stud, insulation, HVAC ducts and registers, silencer boxes (finding room for these is tricky and until you have them in 3d, you won't realize that you may have to move some walls around to make room for them!) - figure out where you need conduit runs. You may have to jack hammer up some concrete to make cable runs. - figure out your electrical layout - figure out light fixture placement and models of lights (light depth and their candle brightness will be big factors in a great looking/feeling room) - get a plan of attack on what sort of acoustic treatment you will PROBABLY need and start designing that on SketchUp too. John uses a cool idea on lots of his live rooms where the panel can open and close which allows either broad band absorption or a more reflective slat wall. - figure out your front wall in full detail. - figure out exactly how you can build your ceilings and figure out what types of materials (rim board, LVL, etc) you'll need to build the skeleton of them... all approved by an engineer of course! - take all of your plans and get them approved and permits pulled The planning stage is the most important. SO many things have come up in my design (hence why it is still changing and far from done) all within SketchUp. I cannot fathom having to just wing it in real life. Figure out everything on the computer before lifting a finger inside your space. I'm sure, like your basic 2d layout, once you start designing it in more detail, you'll have more questions. You'll post more pictures that participating members can help out with, making suggestions. I look forward to seeing the progress. Your space is going to be absolutely awesome! Greg

Gregwor wrote:

Can you see any more improvements worth considering?

The only things I can suggest are to: - do ray tracing and post those pictures - build it in 3d now. Draw each stud, insulation, HVAC ducts and registers, silencer boxes (finding room for these is tricky and until you have them in 3d, you won't realize that you may have to move some walls around to make room for them!) - figure out where you need conduit runs. You may have to jack hammer up some concrete to make cable runs. - figure out your electrical layout - figure out light fixture placement and models of lights (light depth and their candle brightness will be big factors in a great looking/feeling room) - get a plan of attack on what sort of acoustic treatment you will PROBABLY need and start designing that on SketchUp too. John uses a cool idea on lots of his live rooms where the panel can open and close which allows either broad band absorption or a more reflective slat wall. - figure out your front wall in full detail. - figure out exactly how you can build your ceilings and figure out what types of materials (rim board, LVL, etc) you'll need to build the skeleton of them... all approved by an engineer of course! - take all of your plans and get them approved and permits pulled The planning stage is the most important. SO many things have come up in my design (hence why it is still changing and far from done) all within SketchUp. I cannot fathom having to just wing it in real life. Figure out everything on the computer before lifting a finger inside your space. I'm sure, like your basic 2d layout, once you start designing it in more detail, you'll have more questions. You'll post more pictures that participating members can help out with, making suggestions. I look forward to seeing the progress. Your space is going to be absolutely awesome! Greg

Cool, thanks a lot for the advice. Yeah that's my next plan of action, i've already started the framing in sketch up. I'm actually planning to use two multi-split HVAC systems, each system will power two units (1 in CR, 1 in machine room, 1 in live room and 1 in ISO). This type of system seems fine for my needs, and they're quite popular in studios in the U.K. The one I'm looking at sucks up condensation and dumps the water outside, and it will heat your rooms for you as well as providing cool fresh air of course. These systems are much simpler than traditional industrial style systems with ducting etc. Just two small holes in the wall for the supply and return.

These systems are much simpler than traditional industrial style systems with ducting etc. Just two small holes in the wall for the supply and return.

For sure! You'll still need silencer boxes though. You need them to keep sound from going between rooms and to/from the outside world. Greg

as well as providing cool fresh air of course.

Split systems do NOT provide fresh air, nor do they exhaust stale air! All they do is move the room air through the evaporator unit, to either cool it or heat it, then they return the exact same air to the room. There are a couple of systems (Daiku, for example) that can provide a very limited amount of fresh air, but those are not suitable for studios.

These systems are much simpler than traditional industrial style systems with ducting etc. Just two small holes in the wall for the supply and return.

Actually, they are more complex than traditional ducted systems! Since you also need those holes in the walls, IN ADDITION to the ducts that supply the fresh air and remove the stale air... That's a lot of holes! :shock: Those "small holes in the wall" are not for supply and return of air: they are for circulating the refrigerant between the compressor unit (outdoors) and the evaporator unit (indoors). There's usually only one single hole needed in each room, as both pipes plus the electric wiring plus the condensate drain are all bundled together, and all pass through the wall through one single perforation. For a four-room studio it would be far cheaper (and a lot simpler) to just get one ducted mini-split that is able to handle the full load of all four rooms, and one single duct system that incorporates all four rooms. A lot quieter, too! Put the AHU (evaporator unit) outside the outer-leaf envelope, with silencer boxes on the supply and return ducts, then split the air flow to each room using a staged plenum, or motorized dampers (or both), and re-join the return airflow using another staged plenum, into the return silencer. As Greg pointed out, you cannot avoid having two ducts and two silencers for each room anyway, no matter what system you use for the actual A/C. There is no way around this. It seems you might have been mislead by the mini-split salesman (or brochure)...

I'm actually planning to use two multi-split HVAC systems, each system will power two units (1 in CR, 1 in machine room, 1 in live room and 1 in ISO).

In other words, you would buy a total of six large expensive boxes, two of which are noisy compressor units, plus four evaporators, then run pipes and cables all over the place, in addition to ducts.... this is not a "simpler solution", not is it cheaper.... If you do it correctly, you only buy two boxes: one compressor, and one AHU.

The one I'm looking at sucks up condensation and dumps the water outside,

ALL air conditioners do that! Every single one, without exception. It's a simple by-product of cooling the air.... As the refrigerant hits the indoor unit, it expands into gass which cools the coils. The water vapor in the air condenses on those cold evaporator coils, thus extracting the latent heat load from the room, and when that is done, it can also deal with the sensible heat load of the room if there is enough capacity left over. Latent heat load and sensible heat load are the two components of the cooling capacity that you need. But first it is latent heat: simple thermodynamics. You cannot extract sensible heat until after the latent heat is dealt with. This is true for every single air conditioner ever made. The simple act of running the air over cold coils, automatically extracts the humidity first, BEFORE cooling the air. And if you did not do the calculations correctly for your studio, then the system will not actually be able to dehumidify the room at all (nor cool it properly...)! If the system is too small then you will use all of the cooling capacity just to extract the latent heat, so none will be left over to extract the sensible heat, or if the system is too big then you will get too much cooling and not enough dehumidification. That's why it is so important to do the math. If you choose a unit that does not have enough capacity, it will only ever succeed in partially dehumidifying the room, without cooling it, even when running at 100% duty cycle. So it will be overloaded, and will fail soon. And if you choose a unit that has too much capacity, it will cool the room too fast, will therefor NOT extract the humidity correctly (since the duty cycle will be too short), so it will be under-loaded, under used, and you will have spent way too much money on something that does not do the job. Do the math, before you choose the AHU and compressor. Important!

This type of system seems fine for my needs, and they're quite popular in studios in the U.K.

Not a good method for making decisions about how to design your studio! What "seems" good is no good at all unless you do the research and math to make sure it actually is. And what is "popular" might well be no good at all for YOUR studio: just because it is "popular" does not make it right for your situation. Do the math, to make sure. - Stuart -

For a four-room studio it would be far cheaper (and a lot simpler) to just get one ducted mini-split that is able to handle the full load of all four rooms, and one single duct system that incorporates all four rooms. A lot quieter, too! Put the AHU (evaporator unit) outside the outer-leaf envelope, with silencer boxes on the supply and return ducts, then split the air flow to each room using a staged plenum, or motorized dampers (or both), and re-join the return airflow using another staged plenum, into the return silencer.

Thanks for correcting me. I was actually going on what I read from Bob Owsinski here: http://bobbyowsinskiblog.com/2017/01/04 ... ditioning/ where he describes simply installing a mini split and being done with it. If this isn't going to work then your ducted mini-split system sounds like a plan, though I am struggling to picture it - I've tried to find some diagrams and info about it but have become more confused due to sales jargon. If you have time could you link me to a diagram of exactly what you're talking about? For example, is what you are describing like the attached image? Thanks

So I've been learning about Energy Recovery Ventilation today. Would this be a good way to get fresh air into my rooms? The units themselves are not too expensive, and with some intelligent placement I don't think there would be too much ducting going all over the place. Are there any better ways for getting fresh air in and out which don't cost a fortune?

So my new future CR has been cleared out finally after a couple of weeks of sickness, hospitals and bad weather! I've also decided on what my main monitors will be and put a deposit on them ready to pick up on monday: Tannoy SRM15XB (see pic, that's not me in the pic but just one I stole from google) I am pretty excited to get these, and I got them for such a steal I couldn't pass it up. I've always loved the dual concentric design of tannoys, only ever heard the Berkeleys which are very similar to these. The published frequency response is 40hz-20khz +-4db which is a rough idea of what they're capable of. Hopefully by getting the flush mounting correct I can expect even lower LF. Now that I have them I can design my front wall properly as I'll have the measurements from the speakers. On another note I have a quick question about the floor... I know that the concrete slab that I already have there is ideal in terms of isolation, but it is quite a roughly done uneven in places surface. I want to cover it with a laminate floor, but was wondering if I can either: A. put kingspan insulation boards (I don't know if that's what it's called everywhere but that's what I know it as in the UK - it's a rigid foam board with foil on one side) underneath the underlay and laminate floor? This would keep the feet nice and cosy and remedy the unevenness of the slab so that the laminate floor can go down nice and flat. B. fix OSB boards down on the concrete slab first before the underlay and laminate. I know that there should not be any kind of air gap between the slab and the laminate, but the insulation would not be floating on it's own frame, just straight down on to the slab. But I wanted to check first. Bearing in mind also that each room of the studio is going to be on its own independent slab. Thanks for reading!

Hi guys, I'm still wondering the best way to ventilate the studio. Could I simply have an inlet and outlet fan with silencer boxes on opposite ends of each room? And then use the mini split for cooling/heating? If so, can the outlet fan for my control room output its air into the hallway (which will also have its own inlet and outlet)? Or could I do it the other way round?

I'm still wondering the best way to ventilate the studio. Could I simply have an inlet and outlet fan with silencer boxes on opposite ends of each room? And then use the mini split for cooling/heating?

That's the basic concept, yes. But you only need one fan, not two. It can be either on the inlet or the outlet: it doesn't matter too much (there are pros and cons to both). The reason being that, because the room itself is sealed airtight, then blowing fresh air in one end will automatically force stale air out the other... or vice versa: Sucking stale air out from one end will automatically suck fresh air in from the other.

If so, can the outlet fan for my control room output its air into the hallway (which will also have its own inlet and outlet)

Probably not, but check your building code. Usually it is not permissible to exhaust stale air from one room into another room. - Stuart -

Paulus87 wrote:

For a four-room studio it would be far cheaper (and a lot simpler) to just get one ducted mini-split that is able to handle the full load of all four rooms, and one single duct system that incorporates all four rooms. A lot quieter, too! Put the AHU (evaporator unit) outside the outer-leaf envelope, with silencer boxes on the supply and return ducts, then split the air flow to each room using a staged plenum, or motorized dampers (or both), and re-join the return airflow using another staged plenum, into the return silencer.

Thanks for correcting me. I was actually going on what I read from Bob Owsinski here: http://bobbyowsinskiblog.com/2017/01/04 ... ditioning/ where he describes simply installing a mini split and being done with it. If this isn't going to work then your ducted mini-split system sounds like a plan, though I am struggling to picture it - I've tried to find some diagrams and info about it but have become more confused due to sales jargon. If you have time could you link me to a diagram of exactly what you're talking about? For example, is what you are describing like the attached image? Thanks

Hi Paul, I've been reading your thread with interest because I'm in a similar situation, albeit a lot further behind in the planning. I clicked on the Bob Osinski link and I don't know if I'm missing something but he says that people often forget about HVAC, ventilation and air exchange specifically, but then suggests the mini split as a budget option which doesn't provide fresh air. He even points it out in the post later on. "All that’s required is a 1″ hole that’s cut through the wall to allow access for a hose to go from the compressor unit outside to a cooling head mounted on the wall inside the studio, and a small drainage hose." Maybe there's some information missing from the post? Or... I like your idea with the bringing fresh air in and then cooling/heating in once it's there. I wonder how it would go if the temperatures were extreme outside. For example, if it was freezing cold outside, would the cold air you bring in be uncomfortable if it was being blown on a performer before it was heated up? Maybe you could put the inlet right next to the split unit so it gets heated up as it comes in. Or maybe if you had a seperate room where the fresh air got heated/cooled and then ducted to where you wanted it. Kinda like how a hot water system works. Not being a debbie downer, just trying to think of all the possibilities. :D Also, I have a split system in one of my rooms that has a quiet mode (which is very quiet) but I still turn it off for a soft nylon acoustic guitar gently plucked. Otherwise it sounds like a distant freeway when I turn up the mics! Mark

Soundman2020 wrote:

I'm still wondering the best way to ventilate the studio. Could I simply have an inlet and outlet fan with silencer boxes on opposite ends of each room? And then use the mini split for cooling/heating?

That's the basic concept, yes. But you only need one fan, not two. It can be either on the inlet or the outlet: it doesn't matter too much (there are pros and cons to both). The reason being that, because the room itself is sealed airtight, then blowing fresh air in one end will automatically force stale air out the other... or vice versa: Sucking stale air out from one end will automatically suck fresh air in from the other.

If so, can the outlet fan for my control room output its air into the hallway (which will also have its own inlet and outlet)

Probably not, but check your building code. Usually it is not permissible to exhaust stale air from one room into another room. - Stuart -

That's great to know, thanks for clearing that up for me, I'll crack on and come up with my ventilation plans. It seems to make more sense to me to exhaust the stale air out so I will plan to have the fan on the outlet end. I've seen silencer boxes like in the images attached, which design would you recommend? and would I need one on every single inlet and outlet on the inside walls and outside walls?

bigsister wrote:

Paulus87 wrote:

For a four-room studio it would be far cheaper (and a lot simpler) to just get one ducted mini-split that is able to handle the full load of all four rooms, and one single duct system that incorporates all four rooms. A lot quieter, too! Put the AHU (evaporator unit) outside the outer-leaf envelope, with silencer boxes on the supply and return ducts, then split the air flow to each room using a staged plenum, or motorized dampers (or both), and re-join the return airflow using another staged plenum, into the return silencer.

Thanks for correcting me. I was actually going on what I read from Bob Owsinski here: http://bobbyowsinskiblog.com/2017/01/04 ... ditioning/ where he describes simply installing a mini split and being done with it. If this isn't going to work then your ducted mini-split system sounds like a plan, though I am struggling to picture it - I've tried to find some diagrams and info about it but have become more confused due to sales jargon. If you have time could you link me to a diagram of exactly what you're talking about? For example, is what you are describing like the attached image? Thanks

Hi Paul, I've been reading your thread with interest because I'm in a similar situation, albeit a lot further behind in the planning. I clicked on the Bob Osinski link and I don't know if I'm missing something but he says that people often forget about HVAC, ventilation and air exchange specifically, but then suggests the mini split as a budget option which doesn't provide fresh air. He even points it out in the post later on. "All that’s required is a 1″ hole that’s cut through the wall to allow access for a hose to go from the compressor unit outside to a cooling head mounted on the wall inside the studio, and a small drainage hose." Maybe there's some information missing from the post? Or... I like your idea with the bringing fresh air in and then cooling/heating in once it's there. I wonder how it would go if the temperatures were extreme outside. For example, if it was freezing cold outside, would the cold air you bring in be uncomfortable if it was being blown on a performer before it was heated up? Maybe you could put the inlet right next to the split unit so it gets heated up as it comes in. Or maybe if you had a seperate room where the fresh air got heated/cooled and then ducted to where you wanted it. Kinda like how a hot water system works. Not being a debbie downer, just trying to think of all the possibilities. :D Also, I have a split system in one of my rooms that has a quiet mode (which is very quiet) but I still turn it off for a soft nylon acoustic guitar gently plucked. Otherwise it sounds like a distant freeway when I turn up the mics! Mark

Hi Mark, thanks a lot for your interest in my build. Yes the Bob Osinski does not state that the mini splits bring in fresh air, I am fully aware of that. I think the article is not aimed at those trying to build a commercial studio but rather those who just want to make some improvements to their existing home studio space where it is their spare bedroom etc. The use of a mini split in this scenario would probably work fine as it would not be a fully isolated system. I am simply suggesting using a mini split as they are easier to buy in the UK as well as easier to install, and they are also cheaper. Using it in combination with a ventilation system for bringing in fresh air seems like a good compromise for me. Regarding the extreme temperature changes in the UK, I do not think it will be too much of a problem. In our houses we sometimes have extractor fans built into our windows to regulate fresh air and to lessen condensation building up, in my cottage where I live we have very old thin single glazed multi pane windows with a unpowered fan that just spins around exhausting stale air. Obviously that is not ideal and it does waste a lot of energy and gets cold but in a well built studio I think the temperature will be quite comfortable due to the amount of equipment that will be giving off heat as well as the amount of bodies inside. I think in the live room it could initially get quite cold, and like you suggested putting the fresh air vents next to the mini split could be a good idea. As I understand it though, it is better to have the inlet at the bottom of one wall and the outlet at the top of the opposite wall as hot air rises, but I could be wrong. I've thought about the cooling/heating room idea too, I was thinking I could use the hallway. I just don't know if it would be able to provide enough heated/cooled air to the whole building, or if it would even work.

Dismantling of the existing shed has begun, the roof is off and we realised it would be best to cut down a couple of massive trees that are hanging over rather high up. To do it without risking damage to the walls from the trees falling and smashing them we've decided to basically flat pack the walls and put them to one side while we get the trees down and then put the walls back up once the trees are down. This is a real pain but cannot be easily avoided. I have a question about isolated concrete slabs. What is best to fill the gap between the slabs? I know stuart has suggested expanding foam to me in the past, but my worry is that rats and mice and moles could chew through this and get up inside the walls! I wanted to have the outer walls on their own slab, and then each inner room on its own slab, with a gap between each slab. But need to fill that gap to prevent damp rising up from the exposed earth. Any suggestions? I know people usually use a rubber expansion joint, or backer rod and caulk, or expanding foam, but all these options are not rodent proof...would I be better off just doing one massive slab and isolating the walls ontop of that? My wall frames are all going to be bolted onto rows of concrete blocks which are on top of the slab to provide a damp proof course. Thanks for your input

I know stuart has suggested expanding foam to me in the past, but my worry is that rats and mice and moles could chew through this and get up inside the walls!

https://www.homelogic.co.uk/is-spray-fo ... ent-proof/ - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

I know stuart has suggested expanding foam to me in the past, but my worry is that rats and mice and moles could chew through this and get up inside the walls!

https://www.homelogic.co.uk/is-spray-fo ... ent-proof/ - Stuart -

Thank-you Stuart, that's interesting - seems there are very differing opinions else where online with many complaining about rats and mice eating through this spray insulation. Theres people that are even mixing wire wool in with the foam insulation to deter rodents as they don't like chewing on metal. If I did this would it compromise my isolation or would it not likely make much difference? So, perhaps there are different types of foam insulation - some that deter rodents and others that do not?

What an exhausting few days we've been having here. I'm incredibly lucky in that I have 12 people who are working for me as volunteers, being compensated with food, experience and wood. A good few tonnes of trees have been cut down, logged and moved with a few more tonne left to process. It was a total of 10 trees IIRC, and as those of you who've felled a fair few trees before will understand it's always surprising how small they look until they come thundering to the ground. Footings have started to be dug out as well as some incredibly large tree roots. My old man is beyond fatigued and beginning to regret agreeing to helping me! The hardest work for this stage is over though and soon the actual build can begin. I've also got my new main monitoring system which arrived a couple of weeks ago, it's a large 3 way Quested system with cross over and power amps for each set of drivers. Will get some photos of it soon, but for now here's a few photos of the work that's been going on for those that are interested, though at this stage not much to see.

That IS a lot of hard work. It will only make you appreciate your finished studio more in the end. Keep pushing forward and please, continue to post lots of pictures for us! That's the best part for all of us here on the forum. Great work! Greg

Gregwor wrote:

That IS a lot of hard work. It will only make you appreciate your finished studio more in the end. Keep pushing forward and please, continue to post lots of pictures for us! That's the best part for all of us here on the forum. Great work! Greg

Thanks for the encouragement Greg! Yes I will post as many pics as possible. I have a question for everyone following my post: We managed to dig out a few more feet in width than my original design which is a bonus, so I've attached two designs, one with the control room at the original width of 14' 4" and a new design with the control room width at 18'. (Just a side note: the extra isolation wall in the corridor has been removed for now as It would be nice to only have to open 1 door to get in to the control room and 1 door to get in the live room. But if I find that it is needed then I can build it in after easily enough. Also the booth on the other side of the control room is going to be a machine room with some guitar amp iso cabs, I was really impressed at how effective they are after demoing some so I think a single wall construction will be enough for this small room.) I would like to do a sort of hybrid of a non environment room using hangers and a RFZ due to my plan of having windows on the side walls at angles. If the control room is wider then I can fit a lot more treatment along the side walls as well as gaining a bit more space in general. But that comes at the expense of losing some live room space near the entrance as well as corridor space. If I keep the CR at 14' 4" then I won't be able to fit as much treatment along the side walls but I will gain a nice size of live room space as well as being able to use the extra corridor space as a comfortably sized lounge/kitchen area which the clients would appreciate. Both room ratios work just as well as each other, if I had an 18' width then I would extend the length by 1' and the height by 2" giving me 10'x18'x23'8" or the original plan which is 9'10"x14'4"x22'8" Which option do you prefer?