Seeking Studio Design Comments

I'm asking for a couple pieces of advice. Attached is a picture of a studio design I'm working on for my basement. Any general comments/advice would be appreciated. Though the exterior dimensions are correct, the interior studio walls aren't exactly dimensioned. I just want to get a feel for the general layout first. I've perhaps strayed from some of the the more "tried and true" layouts as posted by John Sayers on this website. My foundation will be poured in about half a week. I can put the two windows available to me wherever I want (with only a few restrictions. (Disregard the three pictured windows; I only get two.) How difficult are typical windows to design around? I'm thinking of making my recording spaces "rooms within rooms" So to get the sunlight benefit of the windows, I may have to put an additional window in any recording room in which I desire windows. (Does that make sense?) Another way I could go would be to simply copy a John Sayers design as I've pictured further below. (Obviously I'd fill out the top space more completely. But if my first design would work, don't just focus on John's design. Also, since the foundation and slab aren't poured yet, should I get "cable troughs" put into the floor if possible? Thank you, Grant [/i]

General comments: Where are you planning the doors for access? Especially the control room. The control rrom walls look like they are angled less than 12 degrees. The iso booth appears very small. If its for amps it is fine, otherwise maybe extend the control room/live room wall out more and increase the size of the iso that way? Definitely try to get your plan finalized enough that you can pour cable troughs. Windows will have to be double. Read up here on window construction to be certain you only end up with two leafs. Knowledgable people will have better things to write. :) Overalll nice nice space and nice design ideas. I am looking forward to your studio build diary and seeing the results, Hint, hint. Andre

I would go more with John's design - for one thing, a triangular iso booth will be really hard to treat for decent sound - those sharp acute angles focus sound too much, and make it really difficult and "peaky" trying to find a good mic position - plus, a triangle makes things feel too claustrophobic, which can screw up a good vocal take just by the stress on the singer. Windows - if you're planning on outside windows, you need to leave enough depth in the frames so you can use double strength SINGLE pane glass in the outer, and a heavier SINGLE pane inner glass, sealed and decoupled from the outer frame - On the cable troughs - if you have enough headroom to be able to float your floors, that would be a more isolated way to go - if so, you can include cable troughs as part of the framing for the floated floors. If you won't have the headroom to spare, or don't need the extra isolation of floated floors, then careful planning for console and J-box positioning will be necessary as well as separate troughs for power. You may want to check with Aaron in the Installation and Wiring forum for more insight on this. Not sure if it's my eye or the drawing, but it doesn't look to me like your CR is symmetrical; looks like you have enough room for a nice setup there though... Steve

The thing with using John's design is that avoiding those pillars is very difficult. I can easily change the triangular iso booth as suggested by AVare (which is for vocals) so that my design is more viable. What do you think of that, Knightfly? If the control room isn't symmetrical, it will be. But is that basic control room idea viable? (Note: my greatest concern is the quality of the control room; much of my work is location recording, making the other rooms a lower priority). I do tentatively plan to float floors. So to produce fewer headaches now, I'll do the cable troughs in the floated floor, not the concrete slab. Now I have three questions: 1. Given what you said about the windows, how bad would it be to let the builder put in the standard cheap window that is normal for the outside? I could still do more extreme stuff inside the sound room. 2. Where do you think I should put the windows? I've only got a couple days to let the builder know. 3. Is putting the control room diagonally in the corner as shown a good idea? I haven't seen anyone design like this yet. Excellent comments. Thanks, guys. -Grant

Looks like you only have 2 posts to contend with. Shouldnt be that big of a deal to work around. :)

"Is putting the control room diagonally in the corner as shown a good idea? I haven't seen anyone design like this yet. " Corner control room layout on the SAE site under Studio Plans (left side of page, about two thirds down the page) http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html

Ther are a few desing around with the control room oriented as such.

Great! We. or you, are getting direction in the thread immediately. Putting in normal glass will be a waste of money. Either you will have to replace it, or you will build the inside pane and find out that you have to replace it. Which way is north on the plan? Thinking about sun. Initial thoughts for me would be one in each studio room. Facing south/west for the live room to get the most light. If the control room is your main concern, have you considered putting the front wall up to the posts to gain extra volume? You can put the ducts in larger soffits and build a matching soffit on the other side to maintain symmetry.What is the approximate volume of the current design? What is your ceiling height? There is no need for the control room to be square with the other rooms. I have seen studios with similar layouts, but of course I can't remember exactly where. :wink: A strong suggestion: keep posting here as often as possible. With your time table, it will be very soon when we can no longer write about design concepts and you will have to commit to construction. Tying in with the above paragraph, what are your access plans? I asked about this in my previous post. There may be things that show up when working on that that affect other parts of the design. Similarly, work on your drawing with wall thicknesses, use 1 foot as a start if you are not certain of final, trap locations/sizes etc. As is so common, the devil is in the details. Andre

I'm curious. You say your slab/foundation is to be poured in a week or so? How did you get permits without submitting plans :shock: Usually, at least where I live, you have to submit a COMPLETE set of plans to even pour the slabs. fitZ :?

Anybody else get the feeling that the permit plans show an unfinished basement, and somebody is planning ahead enough to not have to talk to the "blessed bureaucrats" again? :wink: If so, and you still have the option, can you raise the ceiling height at this point in time? You'll probably thank us if you can... Windows - just like walls, you need two leaves as heavy as you can afford, as far apart as you can get, and at least slightly different thickness from each other. Even using 3/8 and 5/8 glass 6" apart, your STC would be around 47 and only about 26 dB at 50 hZ - so, depending on how loud you intend to get and how close/irritable your neighbors are, you could be in trouble even with that. If you stick with the wimpy 1/8" glass for the outer pane, then use 1/2" glass 6" inside that, you would have about STC 47 still, but only around 19 dB TL at 50 hZ. From this, I wouldn't recommend any less than 3/8 outer glass and at least 1/2" inner, if you can space them further apart so much the better. 3/8 and 1/2 glass spaced 8" instead of 6" would get you a couple db more STC, with the performance @ 50 hZ improving to around 27 dB. Rest of the guys already covered your other questions from what I can see... Steve

wow - I've been drawing and you've all been chatting :) this is what i was drawing. cheers john

And the freakin' a-MAZ-ing Mr. Sayers strikes again - nice one, John...

John, I am gonna fly to Aussie town and take 6 monsth of design school at the Sayers Educational Complex.

As far as permits and such: what is happening here is that I'm building a house. My studio plans are intended as a future basement refinishing project (likely to commence very soon after moving in). So, no, I haven't applied for building permits yet. But I'm trying to iron out the planning now with window locations and the like before it's too late. In fact, I think my main focus should be windows right now. Of course, studio layout dictates where windows should be. So I'm trying to get a good idea where and what those two should be. Ceiling height is 10 feet. Is that not enough or had you all not yet seen that figure on the original drawing? I'm paying $5,000 extra for that height (instead of eight feet for $0 extra). I wasn't sure if you guys were commenting because you hadn't seen the figure. But perhaps ten is insufficient. I can't afford nor can manage the builder to give more than ten feet. North is the right side of the plan. Regarding access plans, John's drawing looks pretty good. Are those sliding doors pretty expensive? John, does your design leave sufficient room in the control room for bass trapping and other needed acoustic treatments? I love the layout. Other main questions involve windows to exterior. The thing is, I've been planning (perhaps unintelligently) to have the builder put in normal windows. Then I thought I'd build a (floating) room within the basement room having windows that simply line up with the actual exterior windows. Is this a bad idea? I need to start researching this in more detail. Steve's window post is a little over my head at this moment. The thickness issue is elementary. But I'm not sure how it is to interface with my interior rooms within the basement room. Is this double paned window something I can have the builder put in, then my troubles are over? Are these windows safe for fire escape? Maybe I should just ask to be pointed to a plethora of window information. I'll start looking. (I'm starting to get panicked with the short time frame). And by the way, neighbors will be close. But the main reason for sound isolation is to get clean recordings. Phase one of the studio will be the control room and hopefully one booth/studio. Thanks everyone! Grant

By the way, I've been meaning to ask: I've been lurking on the forum for months now. But the information obtained here is in pieces. Is there a particular place one suggests looking that is a fairly long, complete read of most subjects we need covered to retrofit our basements with studios? Thanks, Grant

It will take a while to write the answer your first previous post, but for the last post:

I've been lurking on the forum for months now. But the information obtained here is in pieces. Is there a particular place one suggests looking that is a fairly long, complete read of most subjects we need covered to retrofit our basements with studios?

You have seen it. Each basement is unique. You have window questions, other people don't. You don't have post problems, some people do. HVAC ducts are issues with all types of construction spaces. BTW: I missed your celing height on the drawing, and 10 feet is excellent.

Thanks, AVare. Of course the 10 feet will have about four inches subtracted for the concrete slab. Then more for the floating floor I put in. In addition, duct work hangs down as shown in my drawing (eight inches or more). But I tentatively plan to slope the ceilings with the low side being under the ductwork if necessary. Grant

Another question that may be a touch premature: What's a good way to get a machine room/closet? I insist on keeping the noisy computer out of the control room, perhaps with other things too. As soon as I learn how to run cables from room to room, I might just have to put them out in the so called "halll." Of course, that will be near the hot water heater, which is a little scary. Doing that could even spice up the appearance of the hall, which I don't plan on finishing much, if at all. Thankfully Apple computers look pretty cool.

Maybe this will help. http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2125 fitZ

John, does your design leave sufficient room in the control room for bass trapping and other needed acoustic treatments? I love the layout

well it's actually YOUR layout drawn correctly.:) The control room - in fact all rooms have the right layout for correct acoustic treatment and isolation. cheers john

I have held off on writing this because I don't know how to write this diplomatically within the time frame that you have. Under normal circumstances I would just gently maintain the points of the posts which might take several days for each point to get fully understood. You do not have the time for this.

North is the right side of the plan.

In that case I would put one window in the live room on the west wall (afternoon/evening light) and one in the studio room on the south wall (all day light). Of course that is limited by shade from adjacent buildings, etc.

Regarding access plans, John's drawing looks pretty good. Are those sliding doors pretty expensive?

I was impressed by what John drew up also. Why are asking about the price of the sliding doors at this point? Your focus should be what will be built shortly. Secondly, do you have any idea how incredibly vague "expensive" is? There are people who post trying to save money because 100 dollars for insulation is expensive for them. There are people who post discussing multi-million dollar studio designs.

Other main questions involve windows to exterior. The thing is, I've been planning (perhaps unintelligently) to have the builder put in normal windows. Then I thought I'd build a (floating) room within the basement room having windows that simply line up with the actual exterior windows. Is this a bad idea? I need to start researching this in more detail. Steve'swindow post is a little over my head at this moment. The thickness issue is elementary. But I'm not sure how it is to interface with my interior rooms within the basement room. Is this double paned window something I can have the builder put in, then my troubles are over?

This was partially addressed earlier by me, but in more detail as hot points: 1) Windows are partitions, just like walls, floors, ceilings and doors. 2) The best isolation construction/cost wise is to have two layers ONLY in the partition. Putting in additional layers will REDUCE the sound isolation. 2b) Depending on the construction, the layers can have different names. Eg. gypsum board walls, leafs; concrete walls , wythes; windows, panes and doors, well, doors. 3) The layers should have as little connection between them as possible. So in your case you have two layers final: concrete outer wall, and (I am assuming) stud/gypsum board inner wall. You want ONE layer of glass in each, unconnected to each other. Looking at the cost point, it may not cost much more at all to have windows in the concrete made from 1/2" glass. Only one pane to handle, simpler frame, etc.

Are these windows safe for fire escape?

? I have never heard of basement windows in a residence be suitable for fire escape. The design concepts I detailed above still apply. The difference would be that the windows would open. Your contractor should be aware of local by-law requirements and the cost to make the windows opening if you want it and it is not required. The one saving grace on this is that usually the greatest problem with opening partitions is the seals. Because of the importance placed these days on weatherproofing fairly good seals are not expensive specialty work.

Maybe I should just ask to be pointed to a plethora of window information. I'll start looking. (I'm starting to get panicked with the short time frame).

You got the summary above.

And by the way, neighbors will be close. But the main reason for sound isolation is to get clean recordings. Phase one of the studio will be the control room and hopefully one booth/studio.

Good info. If you can provide as much additional information as possible, it will help. Just some of the items: how loud is your new neighborhood, what type of music you record, how loud are the performers, how loud you want to monitor, what times of day do want complete freedom from sound leakage.

Are these windows safe for fire escape?

Thats what codes are about. I'm also amazed this wasn't on the plans since it is part of the exterior walls. Of course we don't want those buearucrats looking over our shoulder do we. Afterall, they might just save our life. Doggone, some people like putting foam absorbers on a stage with fireworks, and they thought they had a right too :roll: Don't get me wrong here. Thats why I posted my question earlier. If you are pouring independent slabs in a basement that define wall layouts and egress, that is among other things, regulated by codes, then this SHOULD have been part of the submittal in the first place. Applying for a permit AFTER your slabs are poured is at best a gamble in disappointment. Although I do not live where you do, and its not my project, but I would at LEAST call your Building inspection Dept. for advice. Please take this as a wake up call only. No negative intent. fitZ

AVare: I think I'll plan to put windows, as you suggested, in the southeast recording room and the northwest recording room. (I will not put on in the control room, assuming that would be difficult to deal with for numerous reasons. In addition, phase one will be the control room so keeping the construction easier is desirable.)

Why are asking about the price of the sliding doors at this point?

My question about sliding glass doors was a bit premature. I agree that I should stay focused. Though a vague question, I thought someone might come back and say that they "tend to be three times as expensive as option B and twice as expensive as option C." From what you describe about windows, it sounds like I am supposed to do it just as I imagined. Let me rephrase what I've come to understand. One window goes, as normal, in the concrete foundation. The other window goes in the wall of the respective studio room simply aligned with it. As such, no physical connection should be made between the two windows and two window panes.

So in your case you have two layers final: concrete outer wall, and (I am assuming) stud/gypsum board inner wall.

Your assumption is correct. Here is some additional information you requested:

how loud is your new neighborhood

The neighborhood is very quiet (when I've been there). It's new. So there may be construction noise the first year for other houses being built. But it's location is otherwise very quiet.

what type of music you record

Most of the production will be classical music, which will have been recorded in a concert hall elsewhere. Occasionally I have musicians to the studio to do more conventional studio recordings. As such, I'd entertain the notion of recording a punk rock band in the future. I'm also a theatrical sound designer. The studio would function as grounds for producing sound effects. Many of the effects I often record are quiet in nature. so having good isolation would really improve the quality. As you can see, my studio's use varies quite a bit. But being geared up and ready for a five piece rock band is not my first priority. Sound designs and concert hall recording production are paramount.

how loud are the performers

See above. But also, I play drums, which as you all know are very loud. This is undoubtedly the loudest element.

how loud you want to monitor

Not ungodly loud. I'm very aware of and concerned about the health of my hearing. Though I'm not excellent at judging loudness, I would think that 110 dB would be a very rare occasion. I'd like to think that I do much mixing between 80 and 90 dB. Of course, I've never measured. Sorry for the unsure answer.

what times of day do want complete freedom from sound leakage

I'm not sure exactly why you're asking. Nor if you're concerned with sound coming in or sound going out of the studio. I often seem to mix from noon to midnight. Sessions are up to the talent. But I'd like to be able and ready to record them from 8:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. (The aforementioned hypothetical punk rock band? Those guys will want to record until 2:00 a.m. But I can draw the line.) What else can I tell you? Again, the control room's importance is foremost. I hope to keep the project's budget at $6,000 (not including the $5,000 for the ten foot ceiling height). I haven't calculated what's realistic. But I'm well aware that I may be lucky to only get a control room with that budget. If this budget is totally unrealistic, I'll make compromises. Either I'll give more to the budget or compromise the quality of the room(s). As far as the control room: I want to go the length to make it good (within the bounds of budget). From what I've read so far, I'm excited to plan such features as a sloped ceiling, bass traps as necessary, other acoustic insulation products, floating floor, floating walls (upon the floor?), cable troughs in the floor, a machine room/area outside the control room, a producer's couch and possibly desk. Cadesigner:

If you are pouring independent slabs in a basement that define wall layouts and egress, that is among other things, regulated by codes, then this SHOULD have been part of the submittal in the first place.

Your point is well taken, cadesigner. I think at this time I will forgo fancy concrete work and float floors atop the simple concrete. Given that, do you still think I'm gambling, cadesigner? My thought is that despite the fact that I may have to redesign if my plans aren't approved, the only real gamble right now is the window placement I choose. (Window placement choice is described above). Thanks guys!! Grant

Hello Grant, please don't think I am tying to be critical. On the contrary. As a professional designer, I've worked with the building inspection department in my old location many times. You would be surprised at thier authority over things that were ludicrous. But, without thier approval, your fighting city hall :roll: I even had a project get a stop work order for over 6 months because ONE subcontractor failed to get a permit. Once they stop you, then EVERY little thing is inspected. You DON'T want a stop work order. I've tried to warn other people about things like this, and they didn't listen. Best to get the required design and details subject to approval by BID approved from the outset, or time frames can be interupped. In my case, it ultimately cost $3k more, by failure to get things straight from the beginning. Just trying to help you avoid spending money on fixing things later. fitZ :)

Oops, forgot to tell you something. Considering you will have 10ft ceilings, and very little time to plan at this point, I think pouring one complete slab is wise. If nothing else, for a complete vapor barrier. You can then either float seperarate concrete, wood, or even roll out floors with embedded pucks. Although you will loose a little height, your time frames leave little for planning, although, if it were ME, I would spend one day digging a little deeper in those areas for the first slab. Remember, you have thresholds and leveling of the floors between floating room floors, and also non isolated entry point floors. Change in levels are something many people forget about till they have to install doors. Nothing is worse than trying to fix floor level differences after the fact. Most professional designs even account for 1/4" differences between areas of carpeting, tile, wood, terrazzo, etc. Especially if you have thresholds that require unusual door bottom hardware, cam lift hinges, and avoiding having to step up or down room to room. In my view, these things are CRITICAL to professional details and normal movement between rooms, and should TOTALLY be planned down to the last screw, BEFORE concrete is poured. fitZ :D