One Big Room

I'm building a studio/concert space. No separate control room. All of the mic recording is of 2 concert grand pianos, and occasional classical ensembles. Don't want to do a control desk in the center, ala RealWorld or Sly Stone at The Record Plant Sausalito, because the room will have to accommodate 40 chairs for small concerts, which may be recorded. I'm looking at 1000 to 1400 square feet. Right now I'm just collecting ideas, but am having a tough time finding many photos or articles. If anyone has any links I'd appreciate it. Thanks!

Just trying to understand: So this i going to be a single-room studio that has to serve as both a control room for mixing/mastering, and also as a live room for tracking pianos? Is that it? - Stuart -

Right. It also needs to be big enough to serve as a small concert room.

Right. It also needs to be big enough to serve as a small concert room.

There's a basic, underlying problem with that: diametrically opposed acoustic requirements. First, a control room absolute must have neutral acoustics (refer to ITU BS.1116-3, to see what that means). "Neutral" in this situation implies flat frequency response across the entire spectrum and flat time-domain response across the entire spectrum, as well as correct phase response. The room must not "color" the sound in any way, such that the engineer only hears the pure, clean, original direct sound from the speakers. Nothing more, nothing less. A control room where the acoustic response is not neutral would be pretty bad, because the engineer would not know if he was hearing something in the mix that needs correcting, or if it is something in the room that does NOT need correcting in the mix. He would be unable to produce mixes that consistently translate well. On the other hand, a live room for pianos and concerts, must by definition be rather live, and warm! It must have character, and it must color the sound nicely. It must have much longer decay times than a control room could tolerate, and the frequency response should enhance musical sounds. So there's the basic issue. You can't have it both ways. If you try to play piano in a room that has the necessary response flat, natural response for a control room, it will sound pretty bad: dull, lifeless, muffled, unpleasant.... and if you try to mix in a room that has the necessary response for pianos and concerts, then your mixes will sound terrible when played outside that room. The only way to achieve what you are asking, is to build specially designed adjustable acoustic devices, that can be changed in some fashion (opened, closed, flipped, rotated, inverted, etc.) to drastically change the room acoustics from the neutral requirements for a control room, to the live, warm, and reverberant needs of a concert hall. That is possible, but rather complex, and rather expensive.

am having a tough time finding many photos or articles.

There's a reason for that: It's really hard to do! Not many try. And those that do have big budgets. - Stuart -

Thanks, Stuart. The word "expensive" got my attention. I referenced the only 2 rooms I know that are open, so I will design a closed control room in this new space. Thanks for the reality check!

If you wanted a control room where you planned to record things like vocals and acoustic guitar, that's a lot more feasible: many people do that. But pianos and concerts is a different thing! Feel free to post your designs once you have them, so we can offer constructive advice. - Stuart -

Thanks. I have quite a bit of experience in this, but appreciate the offer.

Here's the piano room of my last studio, now for sale. Not quite enough room to record all the groups I wanted to work with, but great for piano and piano trio (classical).

If you're wondering about the strange shape, here's an external view.

I got quite a bit of advise from the forum on this one, mostly saying "don't do it!". The best bit of advise I pass on: Don't build using Structural Insulated Panels ( SIPs). They are great thermal insulators, but they actually amplify outside sounds!

but great for piano and piano trio (classical).

Yup. High ceiling, good reflective surfaces, limited mid-range absorption... nice and bright, lively, long tails... bodes well for classical, especially piano. Drums might be OK in there too, with gobos to control the transients. But it would be pretty hard to mix well in there!

I have quite a bit of experience in this, but appreciate the offer.

Not trying to be facetious or denigrating, but if you have so much experience in this, then why are you asking for advice from us? And also, why were you not aware that live rooms and control rooms have rather different acoustic requirements? If you really do need our help, then the only way we can do that realistically, is if you post your plans so we can check them over, and maybe suggest improvements. Think of it this way: If a very experienced producer wanted your advice on how to track and mix a classical music album, but refused to tell you what instruments he planned to use, what genre of music they would be playing, who the conductor is, or even how many musicians are involved, then would you be able to help him? - Stuart -

Thanks, Stuart. What I meant was that I have a lot of experience recording piano. My fault for bad communication! You have already almost convinced me to jettison the one room idea, and I have learned a lot from the forum. My apologies. Wishful thinking about mixing in the same room, perhaps, and I was aware of the problems but hoping to get some ideas about how to accomplish that....for example: putting mix space in a corner, building false roof and partial walls with a lot of panels to control reflections, recording using good closed headphones. The idea occured because I'm a one man operation, mostly, and dislike having to push open two heavy doors to get back into the CR, and having to have every musician use headphones to communicate...PLUS the concert hall idea. Seems like building a separate mix room would be just as expensive. What do you think? As far as I know, I might have the only recording studio in a grain bin, and that worked out fine. This will be a big room, similar in shape but bigger than the one where my Yamaha S6 sits now, in a log home. Sounds great. I will submit plans as I go along, and appreciate the help.

What I meant was that I have a lot of experience recording piano.

Ahhh! OK, got it. Then I take off my hat to you, because in my opinion, piano is one of the hardest instruments to record. Especially concert grand piano. I'd rather mic and track a large drum kit in a lousy room, than try to track a grand!

Wishful thinking about mixing in the same room, perhaps, and I was aware of the problems but hoping to get some ideas about how to accomplish that....

Wellll..... it IS possible using variable acoustic treatment. For example, here's a variable thingy I designed for a vocal/instrument room, for one of my customers: There you can see the basic concept, with the device under construction: A central "slot wedge" device that does a number of things at once, with two absorber panels on each side, and swinging "wings" that can either fold back over the absorbers, our out over the wedge. Another view, with the wings fully out, over the wedge: A similar view, but with part of the actual treatment installed in the wings: And the completed device in the fully competed room: So what did this device accomplish? Well, here's the results, from an actual acoustic test we did in the finished room That shows how the decay times change over the entire spectrum as the wings are opened and closed to various angles. That set of measurement was taken with the test speaker and test mic set up as though it were recording the ambient sound of an acoustic guitar session, or something like that. You can clearly see how the low end of the spectrum gets tighter and deader while the high end gets brighter and more live, while the mid range only changes slightly. You would need devices that work something like this, to be able to change the room acoustics from "live and warm enough for piano and concerts", to "smooth and neutral and even enough for mixing". It can be done, but you'd need a LOT of such devices, all over your walls, and probably something in the ceiling too (I designed some similar "flip over" panels for another customer, for the ceiling of his live room, but I don't have photos of that). Each device would need to be placed carefully, and designed to deal with the specific acoustic issues at that location in the room. The room where the above device is, isn't very big: it's meant mainly for vocal tracking and instruments such as acoustic guitar, and there are TWO identical devices in that room. The graph you see above shows the changes as BOTH of them are adjusted together, because that's the amount of wall area that I needed to get these changes. They are useful, yes, but not dramatically huge. The decay times in the high end change from about 370 ms to about 270 ms, and in the low end, from about 330 ms to about 150 ms. So that's nice, and useful, and infinitely variable, but not enough to turn a piano room into a control room. You'd need considerably more devices, designed a bit different, since your room will be much larger. Anyway, my point is that it CAN be done, but it isn't easy, and it's going to be expensive, in both design and also in building and mounting and testing all those devices.

putting mix space in a corner,

Not a good location! Corners are great for treatment, but a lousy place to mix. All room modes terminate in corners, so if you are looking for the location in the room that has the absolute worst set of modal problems tat you can imagine, you'll find that in the corners. In fact, one acoustic test I often do in rooms to understand them better, is to place a speaker in one corner and the acoustic test mic in the diagonally opposite corner, because that setup is guaranteed to trigger and detect all the room modes... ever last one of them. It looks ugly on a graph...

building false roof

Not necessarily a full roof, but certainly you will need a ceiling cloud over the mix position. It might even be feasible to make it in such a way that it can be folded, slid, rotated, or some such to get our of the way when not needed. You can see what I mean by "ceiling cloud over the mix position" in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20471 There are several clouds up there. Or rather, one cloud made up of several parts. That cloud is key to getting this room as good as it is. So yes, you'll need something like that, for sure.

with a lot of panels to control reflections,

That's the right concept, yes, but you need more than just panels. You can see in the thread above that the entire front of the room is carefully shaped with angled walls and things that control reflections, and the cloud is a part of that too. There's a geometric design involved to ensure that all reflections go only where they need to go, and do NOT go where they are not wanted. This design concept is sometimes referred to as "RFZ", since it creates a reflection free zone around the mix position.

recording using good closed headphones.

Meeehhhhh.... tracking on headphones is not something I recommend! 8) You never get the real sound of what you are tracking, especially for something as complex as a grand piano.

The idea occured because I'm a one man operation, mostly, and dislike having to push open two heavy doors to get back into the CR,

Then don't have heavy doors that you need to push open and closed! :) Instead, have sliding glass doors that you can leave open when you are setting things up, or playing, or practicing, or whatever, and you only close them when you need to mix... :) Like this: That's one of John Sayers studios, and you can see how those sliding glass doors between the CR and LR make it so easy and simple. You can also leave them open to talk to the musicians while tracking, if you want, just as you wood with a single large room, then just close them when you need to mix, or to check mic setup without hearing the sound from the other room (only the speakers).

Seems like building a separate mix room would be just as expensive.

Probably, yes. Both options would be expensive. It's hard to say which would be less expensive.

This will be a big room,

If you could post some photos of the actual space, and some diagrams of the dimensions, then we'd get a better idea of what you are facing, and maybe come up with some ideas to hep you get it right. - Stuart -

Beautiful! Thanks, Stuart. Lots of great info. I'll throw your ideas at some builders and see what they think about adjustable spaces vs. closed as to cost. And again. a thousand apologies. I don't take your work and the forum for granted.

because in my opinion, piano is one of the hardest instruments to record. Especially concert grand piano.

1. Good player 2. Good instrument 3. Good mics 4. Good placement 5. Good room

One question as I do some mockups of what I want: When I said, "corner", I was simply thinking of putting the CR over to one side in the back of the concert hall/big room. If I'm building that as a separate room, that shouldn't matter, or am I missing something? I'm not that swift with the CAD programs, so am trying to avoid having to do the drawing more than I have to. Thanks.

If I'm building that as a separate room, that shouldn't matter, or am I missing something?

No problem. That's fine! :thu: Some people try to set up their control rooms literally "in a corner", in the sense that they are facing into the corner at an angle of 45°, with an imaginary line coming out of the corner, anf the speakers and desk on each side of that line... That's not a good setup at all.

I'm not that swift with the CAD programs, so am trying to avoid having to do the drawing more than I have to.

Instead of using CAD programs, I'd really suggest that you use SketchUp. It's a 3D modeling program, not a CAD program. Most people here on the forum use it, which makes it easy to exchange files and parts of files, as well as to view the designs of others. - Stuart -

Thanks. Downloaded SketchUp.

Still working on ideas. Checked out a studio in Texas that uses a log cabin-style construction he built inside a metal barn! I'm very intrigued by the idea, because my main piano is currently in a very large log room and it sounds great in there. The log shapes reduce direct reflection and the wood seems to give the room a very warm sound, perfect for my planned concert/recording big room. Of course, the control room would be built inside that structure and have nothing to do with logs. My main concern would be how to further sound insulate the log structure without losing the curvilinear interior surfaces. Any ideas? Thoughts? Thanks.

Any links to sites that help calculate the size of a recording/concert room big enough to hold 2 concert grand pianos and 40 people? Thanks very much.

Slight change of plans, but will keep it in this post. Adding a control room on to the big garage and wonder if there’s a link to some varied ideal dimensions. This is not an entourage hangout, but would be nice to accommodate 4 listeners sometimes. My desk is pretty small, all digital, and I have one 6’ rack of gear including computer. Storage is outside of CR. Thanks!

Welcome back! It's been a while... :)

Adding a control room on to the big garage and wonder if there’s a link to some varied ideal dimensions.

Take a look at ITU BS.1116-3, or EBU Tech.3276. Those are both documents that lay out all of the parameters that a "critical listening room" (such as a control room) needs to meet. They include the minimum recommended floor areas for stereo rooms (20 square meters), and for multi-channel rooms (30 square meters), as well as some simple rules for setting the relationship between the length, width, and height of the room, in order to get optimal acoustic conditions. It also tells you what the layout should be like inside, what characteristics the speakers should have, and what the acoustic response should be like, after the room has been fully treated acoustically. Personally, I prefer ITU BS.1116-3. Google it, download it, and read chapters 7 and 8. Those are the ones that are relevant to the room, the speakers, and the layout. You can skip the other chapters, as they aren't meaningful for studios. - Stuart -

Thanks, Soundman. Excellent! Somewhere you wrote about a minimum ceiling height and I haven’t found that post yet. The building space for area is unlimited, but since my budget isn’t, I thought to start with ceiling height and build ratios from there. I know that many of the professional CRs I’ve worked in as a studio musician have pretty tall (11-14’ ceilings), but that would be outside my budget.

Aaberg wrote:

I know that many of the professional CRs I’ve worked in as a studio musician have pretty tall (11-14’ ceilings), but that would be outside my budget.

I am confused. I am doing that a lot this morning. In an earlier post you are asking about a performance space for 2 grand pianos and seating for 40 people. Assuming Yamaha C7s that is ~$150k. Concert seats are ~$1.5k. That is $210k, but can not afford higher ceilings? BTW, my minimum first class ceiling height is 11'. Andre

Don’t need help with budget. Working on control room size.