Haha, yeah, x 100 for those figures obviously, sorry!
And yes, way off with the drywall, this time I got:
16mm fyrcheck = 784kg/m3 means 300mm to be equivalent to 100 mm concrete = $276 m2
still half the price per m2 of the FC - (which was "hardie board"- a little denser than other FC )
Steel plate seems good value until you consider the welding costs and other layers required, but if we go for the 75 mm concrete slab as you suggest with the 75 mm air gap (or is 100mm concrete - 50mm air gap better?), and I'm allowed to get a boom up there for the pour, then I'm sold! Of course will need a quote for the truck, preparation and labour..... Then it's a question of neoprene blocks, vs springs vs jacks. I'm told the steel springs are 3 times more effective than the rubber, and that the jacks are best because they guarantee that the slab is lifted to the required height, without any chance of "bridging". Thoughts?
upper floor load limit
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 20980.
Compared with which rubber? There's a huge range of rubber types and characteristics out there... I'd be careful of claims like "steel springs are 3 times more effective that rubber". Sort of like saying "planes are three times faster than cars", without knowing anything at all about the planes are the cars. I could come up with quite a few combinations of cars that are much, much faster than planes.... I could likewise come up with combinations of rubber vs steel where the rubber far outperforms the steel. I'd suggest you give the guys at Mason Industries a call, and ask for quotes and advice on their floor jacks. They have both steel and rubber versions: I'm not exactly sure which one you'd need, as I haven't done any math to figure it out, but I'm inclined to think it would be the rubber version. But I'm sure they can tell you which one better suits your needs, and can figure out how many you will need, where to place them, etc. I would also suggest that you look into the possibility of floating your entire room, if you really do want maximum isolation. In other words, you'd build your inner-leaf walls on top of the floating floor, and build your inner-leaf ceiling on top of the inner-leaf walls, such that the entire room is floating on those jacks. That's a little more complex to figure out. Interesting case here: That's a view of the springs that isolate Galaxy Studios, in Brussels. That's arguably the best isolated studio on planet Earth, with slightly more than 100 dB of isolation. Note that there is a "sandwich" of different types of rubber on top of the springs, and under the springs. Like I mentioned before, steel has characteristics that are good in some ways, but not others, while rubber has characteristics that "fill in the gaps". So a combination of both is what you need if you want maximum isolation. If not, then you could still get some transmission of high frequency impact sounds through the springs and into the floor below. Even though the springs would isolate the lower frequencies quite well, the sound of something dropped on the concrete slab might still manage to get through, as that would be much higher frequencies. For example, the sound of a kick drum pedal by stomped on.... That was designed by Eric Desart, one of the best acousticians in the world, and a well respected member of this forum, who used to post here frequently. Very sadly, he passed away a while back, but his legacy lives on in amazing places like Galaxy Studios. I'm pretty sure you won't get 100 dB of isolation in your place (it cost them several million dollars to do that), and you don't need that either. But you can conceivably get 60 or better, and if you want to get it as high as possible, it pays to learn from the masters. There's no better master than Eric. I have learned a huge amount from him, and I'm merely passing on to you some of that. It's probably worthwhile taking into account what he did, and applying that can be applied in your case. - Stuart -Then it's a question of neoprene blocks, vs springs vs jacks. I'm told the steel springs are 3 times more effective than the rubber,
Spoke with the crew at Meales, truck with boom pump = AUD $10k, double on weekend or out of hours. PLUS $15-18k to arrange cessation of traffic etc. That's $38K just for the concrete! Throw in anther $8k for the isolation springs and extra for preparation, labour and floor toppings.... that's an expensive floor! Happily, there may be a way to use a line pump to get the concrete up the stairs via a large hose. The cost of the concrete is likely to be closer to $10k if I can get that to happen.
Hey, when are you gonna tell me your idea about where to locate to CR ? ;) I just can't see a solution that would suit me other than last shown, although I have asked the struct eng to see if there are alternative ways to spread the load of the 2 rooms. I really can't have people entering in and out of the common area without sound locks, and I really can't afford the space to have them. Also, I'm not allowed to alter anything at all in the common area. Along with any other jealously guarded secrets, you can always PM me ;) - I did try to PM you while back, but didn't get a response from it.
Even if you are not willing to divulge all , I'd at the very least love to know what specific things you'd advise on, what TL spec you'd aim for, the estimated cost of materials and labour as well as your own costs as designer / mentor? Oh, I'm quite confused about whether it's better to have a 100mm slab with 50mm gap, or 75mm slab with 75mm gap, or even 50mm slab and 100mm air gap. For some people the slab thickness is paramount, for others the air spring seems more critical...
I recall your formula: F = 60 / SQRT (M * D) , but I don't understand how that accounts for the original slab underneath it all (125mm on condeck)...?
It seems to me that you want a freebie! :) You keep on asking and asking and asking, and I keep on giving you more and more, and yet it isn't enough: you still want more, even down to actual design and layout details, and yet you don't seem to be working on your design at all! It looks like you are wanting someone to design your place for you, for free. I've already given you a huge bunch of info, more than I do with most forum members, but when I do that with most forum members, they use it to get stuck into designing their studios, themselves, which is the purpose of this forum. We help those who make an effort to help themselves. The progression with most forum members is that they take the info we give them, and work on their designs, coming up with a basic layout, geometry, rough estimate of materials for isolation and treatment, then they post their preliminary designs, ask questions about things they are getting stuck on, and we are happy to keep on helping them along, providing the bits and pieces they need at each point to keep on doing their own design, refine it, improve it, paths to research, places to look, ... And their threads evolve, step by step, into a feasible studio design, developed by them, with help from the forum. But that isn't the way things are going on your thread. So far, there's one very basic but unworkable layout, and no progression at all with design, calculations, layouts, geometry, etc. Just more and more questions, with not-too-subtle hints that you don't seem to trust our advice, so you are also asking other acousticians, designers, engineers, and forums for the same thing (freebies), ... yet you always come running back here when you get conflicting information from "them"!
So I guess I'm just a little confused here! Are you planning to actually design the place yourself, with help from the forum, or are you wanting someone to do it for you? If it is the former, then great! No problem. Let's see your design so far, based on everything I have said so far, and we can help you correct it, adapt it, improve it, optimize it, etc. But if you want someone to do it for you, you should probably be asking for quotes, not freebies. If that's the case, I'd suggest that you contact John Sayers himself, and ask him to quote you for a complete design for your place.
If you plan to do the design yourself, then it's clear that you are going to need to read up a bit on both acoustics and construction, so I'd suggest two books: "Master Handbook of Acoustics" by F. Alton Everest, and "Home Recording Studio: Build it Like the Pros", by Rod Gervais. They are both available on Amazon. Highly recommended.
But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, assume you are on the level, and provide some brief answers to this last round of questions:
Flip the rooms around. Invert.Hey, when are you gonna tell me your idea about where to locate to CR ?
You say you are talking to the guys over at GearSlutz, and some mysterious other unidentified people, so it's surprising that none of them has suggested alternative layouts.I just can't see a solution that would suit me other than last shown,
Where are the support beams that you mentioned? Mark them on your basic outline, accurately.although I have asked the struct eng to see if there are alternative ways to spread the load of the 2 rooms.
As I said, you do not need any doors into the common area is you don't want that. If I were to design that space, I would still put doors there, but they would be mainly just for load-in and load-out, and for convenience, not the main doors. Think it through: There's more than enough info in there to figure out what I'm talking about.I really can't have people entering in and out of the common area without sound locks,
You don't need them.and I really can't afford the space to have them.
You don't need to.Also, I'm not allowed to alter anything at all in the common area.
I'll go check: there was a forum glitch a few days ago, so perhaps I didn't get the notification.I did try to PM you while back, but didn't get a response from it.
:shock: So you want the design specs for free too, along with the free layout, and also a free BoM and a free cost estimate? :) Wow! Most of my paying customers don't need all of that! I'm not a building contractor, I don't live in Melbourne, so I can't quote you for actually building the place. The best I can do on that front is to say that my clients in Australia tell me that building costs are in the range $ 500 to $ 1500 per square meter, for a typical build. Yours might be in that range, or it might not. I would suspect higher in your case, due to the need to hand-carry all the materials and tools up the stairs, and your need for very high levels of isolation. Only a General Contractor in your city would be able to give you a more accurate price, and only AFTER he sees the final design. Trying to estimate the cost of a studio without first knowing anything at all about the studio (other than that it is on the seventh floor and the elevator only goes to floor 6), is unrealistic.Even if you are not willing to divulge all , I'd at the very least love to know what specific things you'd advise on, what TL spec you'd aim for, the estimated cost of materials and labour
There's no need to be confused: just use the correct set of equations, and you can figure it out for yourself.I'm quite confused about whether it's better to have a 100mm slab with 50mm gap, or 75mm slab with 75mm gap, or even 50mm slab and 100mm air gap.
Then you are listening to the wrong people! (Again... :) ) The equations are quite clear, and the problem is quite clear: You need to calculate the combination of mass and depth and infill for a damped, partially decoupled two-leaf MSM floor, with an air spring that is downgraded by the mechanical spring, that will give you the amount of isolation that you need (in decibels), at the frequencies where you need it (as measured by yourself in a typical session), and probably taking into account the Fletcher-Munson curves regarding the human perception of sound. So you will use the equations to draw a set of several isolation curves for various combinations of mass and cavity depth, and you will compare those curves to the one that you want to achieve, and also to the Fletcher-Munson for the levels you are likely to achieve outside the room, to see if you are achieving the goal or not. If none of your initial curves achieves the goal, then you'll have to increase the mass, or the cavity depth, or change the damping infill, and draw new curves until you do reach the goal. Then you can translate that mass into the type of building materials, and start designing the rooms based on that. As you progress with the design, you will need to check many times to ensure that your proposed total mass is still close to your design goal, and adjust the design as necessary at each point, by either adding more mass, or taking mass away, or going back to the start and adjusting the cavity depth. And you need to do this while also checking that the design does not overload the structural capacity of your floor. While you are doing all of that, you will also be adjusting the dimensions and shapes of the rooms to optimize the acoustics, such that the control room meets (or gets close to) ITU BS.1116-3, or EBU Tech-3276 specs, taking into account the monitors that you plan to use, and the equipment and furniture that you plan to have in the room. You will also need to adjust the locations of doors and/or windows for optimum sight lines, traffic flow, accessibility, and isolation, while making sure that this does not interfere with the acoustic response of the room, or produce unforeseen structural issues. At the same time as you do all of the above, you will also need to do the calculations for the HVAC system, to ensure that you are providing enough fresh air to keep the musicians, engineer, producer, WAGs, etc. alive and comfortable: the rooms will be double sealed, hermetically air-tight, twice over, so it's sort of important to get oxygen in there, and remove CO2. So you'll need to design the HVAC system to provide the correct air flow rate (volume) for the occupancy and dimensions of each room, at a speed (velocity) that is low enough to enable you to achieve NR-15 (or NC.15, if you prefer), which is the typical recommendation for high-end studios. Once you have the flow rates and flow velocities figured out, you can calculate what size ducts you will need, and based on that (along with the usual rules of thumb for insertion loss involving impedance mismatch, absorption, baffles, turns, etc.) you can design your silenter boxes, which are critical parts of th HVAC system, and even more so in your case, due to the need for high isolation. Based on all of the above, you can finally figure out your static pressure, so you can correctly dimension the fan(s) that will move the correct volume of air at the correct speed when faced with the amount of resistance imposed by the ducts, filters, silencers, registers, dampers, HRV, etc. If your calculated static pressure is to high (above about 1" WG), then you'll need to go back and re-design the whole system to make it lower. Then you will also need to calculate the sensible heat load and latent heat load of each room, compare that with the climate tables for Melbourne, and come up with the correct cooling capacity for your AHU, in BTU/HR, or tons, or kilowatts, or kj/hr, or whatever system is used locally to measure HVAC capacity where you live. Based on all of that, you can then actually include the various parts of the HVAC system into the design, accounting for the weight of all that, and going back to your original starting point to ensure that you are still within the load range for the springs and/or rubber on which your studio is floated, and making adjustments in other places as necessary. Once you have all of this basic stuff in place, you can start fleshing out the actual design, double-checking that you are meeting the criteria. For example, if you chose to go for an RFZ style room, then you'll want to do manual ray-tracing to ensure that your angled surfaces really are producing the correct deflections to the right parts of the room, to achieve the design goal, which is a diffuse field that is 20 dB down from the direct field, delayed by 20ms (the ITDG), followed by even decay across the entire spectrum, at the correct decay rate for the room volume and treatment, while still being accurate to within +/- 0.05 seconds between adjacent 1/3 octave bands. If your surface angles don't work to achieve that, then you'll need to adjust them, and repeat the exercise. At the same time as all of the above, you'll need to be considering how to deal with the modal issues, and what effect your treatment will have on the Schroeder frequency, which is sort of a circular problem that chases it's own tail... Then you can start thinking about interior decoration: What finish materials to use, what colors, styles, etc. So the process is not that complicated, once you know what you are doing. It's just a bit tedious, with lots calculations along the way, and lots of repetitive iterations of doing the same stuff over and over, as you have to continuously compromise one thing to improve another. (I forgot to mention the electrical system, which is something else that needs a lot of care in designing for a studio with high isolation).For some people the slab thickness is paramount, for others the air spring seems more critical...
That's actually the equation for panel traps (membrane traps), or for light-wight walls backed by a very massive wall, such as drywall on studs backed by a 80cm thick reinforced concrete foundation wall. The equation you want is: Fc=c[(m1+m2)/(m1m2d)]^.5 Where: c=constant (Varies between 90 for empty cavity and randomly incident sound, to 43 if the cavity is 100% filled with very suitable insulation for normally incident sound. A good guess would be around 50) m1=mass of first leaf (kg/m^2) m2 mass of second leaf (kg/m^2) d=depth of cavity (m) That's the basic equation, which gives you the MSM resonant frequency of the two-leaf wall (floor, ceiling, window, door, etc.) Consider that "equation #1", and the result it gives you "f0" You will also need the mass law equation, to apply to the individual leaves for the part of the spectrum outside of the MSM resonance range: TL(dB)= 20log(W) + 20log(f) -47.2 Where: W is the surface density of the panel f is the frequency Then based on all of that, you can calculate your isolation for each of the frequency ranges, using these equations: R1 and R2 are the results of your two mass law calculations. Or if you don't want to go to all that trouble, and you don't mind a bit of inaccuracy, then you can go with the simplified version of the above: In that case "f1" = 55/d, and everything else is the same. Or you could cheat a bit, and combine some of the above with the following graph to help you get the answers a bit easier, using educated "guesstimates" from experience:I recall your formula: F = 60 / SQRT (M * D) ,
Plug that into the above equations, and you'll see how it works. And since you seem to be getting wrong "information" about springs, here's the math for that too. ("spring" in the sens of physics, where the spring can be anything that exhibits resilience, such as steel, rubber, air...): The natural frequency of a spring is dependent by the stiffness of the spring, K, and the mass of the load that the spring is supporting (M), and can be determined by the following equations: f = 1/2 pi * SQRT (K/M) Where: K is the stiffness in newtons per meter (N/m) M is the mass in kilograms (Kg) If you don't now the spring constant, then another way of getting to the same answer is by measuring the static deflection of the spring under load: f = 1/2 pi * SQRT (G/d) Where: G is the acceleration due to gravity (9.8 m/s2) d is the static displacement in meters But that's undamped resonance, of course. It's different with damping. That should be enough to get you started on the design. More than enough, actually! :) - Stuart -but I don't understand how that accounts for the original slab underneath it all
Stuart, I'm sorry and a bit embarrassed that I come across like I'm fishing for free design work! The last studio I built was 17 years ago and I paid Graeme Thirkell and David Flett (2 of the most respected guys in Oz) to do the design. Graeme has since passed on and David doesn't do much these days, regardless, back then I was instructed to build walls featuring plaster/caneite/plaster on both sides of both walls separated by a 50mm gap. Imagine my surprise to find , like Rumplestiltskin awaking after 20 years, how much the world has changed regarding Studio Acoustics!
Seems like I did so many things "wrong" last time for way much more cost and time than what was required, that I thought I should be more careful this time. :) One thing that is truly remarkable about this new online age of disseminating ideas and advice is that there are incredibly well informed and generous people like yourself happy to give away some of what they know on Forums such as these, for free! I think I get it (although not really sure), I guess it's about building up credibility and trust in a public forum which engenders relationships and contacts that lead to paid gigs, or something. And that's great, I think it can be a wonderful way to seek out those professionals who have the right vibe for each of us...
So, starting a coupla months back, off I went in the hopeful search of some up to date information. Let's see, we have Gervais, Alton Everest and Phillip Newell, which one to buy, oh, I know, let me read snippets of their books and get a feel for their take on things.... oh, hang on, they don't really cover what I might want to do, or if they do, they don't exactly agree.... ok, let's see f I can find other peeps out there, that build lots of studios, yeah, they're the guys I need to speak with, maybe they can tell me from experience what has and hasn't worked for them....
OK, well you can guess the rest- it's surely the same lament regarding all aspects of internet information, there's so many differing opinions out there that one needs to be an expert to sort the wheat from the chaff - but even there, what is wheat and what is chaff will depend on perspective, one man's ceiling is anther man's floor, and all that...
I wish it was as easy as paying one man to "project manage" the whole thing, but It's not, is it? How would I know if it's possible to project manage from another country without being able to get a feel for the subtleties of a space? How do I know if a local guy who can visit the space often, has enough experience in my kind of build to get it right? How do I know if it's possible to reach a compromise b/n what "works" and what feels good to sit in the middle of each day?
Well, questions, questions, questions! I mean, as long as people keep answering them, I'll keep asking! ;) As for your question- Am I looking for a professional designer, or do I want to design the space myself? - I think the answer is both! I'd love to have something designed around my idiosyncratic needs...
I'm a musician, producer, and studio manager - in that order. One thing I am not, and that is an acoustic engineer, nor am I an architect, electrician or HVAC consultant. While it's ok throw up a bunch of equations and say " the numbers don't lie"- it must certainly seem an insult to your profession to think that a musician could down his own tools for a few months and learn to be a studio designer by receiving guidance on a single internet forum.
But I will try to do as you suggest, only that, if I can't deal with it, could I engage your service on a professional level?
If so, then please PM me with details.
Thanks again for your (free) help. FWIW, it's the best I've had, by far!.... :thu: :thu:
There certainly have been many advances in the science of acoustics over the years. Studio design has advanced along the same path. Back then, LEDE was still in vogue somewhat, but has long since been abandoned, replaced by more modern extensions, such as RFZ, NER, and suchlike. New techniques have been developed, speaker technology has advanced by leaps and bounds, DAWs have replaced monster consoles and racks of gear (to a certain extent), multi-track tape decks are now museum pieces, replaced by hard disks, acoustic measurement technology is way ahead of where it was, and the Internet has changed everything. It's a different world. So it's not surprising that you are a little lost with your new build. There are just a whole bunch of different ways of doing things now, and the "bar is set higher". Rooms that were considered fantastic 20 years ago would now be considered mediocre, acoustically. Small project studios today can do some things (but not all!) that only large high-end facilities could do 20 years ago. Trying to stay on the leading edge of all of that is a challenge! You'd be surprised how much time I spend researching new stuff every week, to see if I can make use of it in any way. The old dogs DO need to learn the new tricks, if they still want to run with the pack and have a full bowl at the end of the day!back then I was instructed to build walls featuring plaster/caneite/plaster on both sides of both walls separated by a 50mm gap. Imagine my surprise to find , like Rumplestiltskin awaking after 20 years, how much the world has changed regarding Studio Acoustics!
They were possibly not "wrong" at the time, but there's better ways of doing them now. And likely there'll be even better still ways of doing them in another 20 years....Seems like I did so many things "wrong" last time for way much more cost and time than what was required, that I thought I should be more careful this time
Actually, for me it started out more along the lines of just wanting to help people avoid the pitfalls, common errors, and snake-oil vendors, so they could build nice places without wasting money or getting bogged down. Then people started contacting me off-line, offering to pay for me to design stuff for them (and John very kindly even sent me a few of his potential clients, when he was overbooked). It sort of grew from there. Yes, being involved in the forum does bring about the benefit of making a name and reputation, and helping to put bread on the table, but to be very honest, I still love just helping out! I hate it when I see people being "sucked in" by the acoustic nonsense spewed out by so many places on the web, or suckered into buying hugely expensive products that they do not need, and which would not do what the wanted anyway. I love pointing people at better ways of doing things. That's a really big part of why I'm here: because helping people do it right is sort of a passion. It's a bonus for me when they want to pay me for doing it! But of course, there's only one of me, so I do need to split my time between paying customers, and helping out forum members who prefer to not pay, for whatever reason. As long as it's a reasonable reason! :) As you already gathered, I'm not much into handing out freebies to people who could afford to pay, and probably need to pay, but just don't want to....One thing that is truly remarkable about this new online age of disseminating ideas and advice is that there are incredibly well informed and generous people like yourself happy to give away some of what they know on Forums such as these, for free! I think I get it (although not really sure), I guess it's about building up credibility and trust in a public forum which engenders relationships and contacts that lead to paid gigs, or something.
All of the above! Then compare them, do the math, do the research, and see why 1 and 2 are preferable to 3 in some senses...Let's see, we have Gervais, Alton Everest and Phillip Newell, which one to buy,
There's a lot of truth in that, but what is often mistaken for differing opinions, is often not differing at all! It's not that one guy is wrong and the other right: They can both be right, in their own context. Basically, there are different design concepts. Different ways of getting to the same result, provided that you do it all, not just parts. If one guy tells you that the front wall must be soft and the back hard, then he's likely a LEDE guy. If another guy tells you that the back wall must be soft and the front hard, he's probably a CID or RFZ guy. If a third guy says they are both wrong, and that rooms should be as soft as possible all around, but balanced with some hard surfaces, then he is probably more used to doing multi-channel rooms, while the other two were talking about stereo. If someone tells you that rooms should be purely rectangular to maximize volume and make modal issues easy to predict, he's probably used to doing small rooms, but the guy who tells you that angling the walls and ceiling is great, and bass trapping isn't as important as diffusion, is probably a guy who mostly works on large rooms. The guy who tells you that the console should go towards the back of the room is probably doing very large rooms for cine work, and they guy who says that the console must always go up front is likely doing home studios, or project studios. The guy who rejects diffusion and wants all absorption is a small room guy, while the guy who says the opposite is a large room guy. And none of them is wrong! They are all correct, within their design concept. But if you try to apply original LEDE concepts to an RFZ room, or large-room treatment concepts to a small room, you are guaranteed to end up with disaster. They are incompatible. To most people, that's confusing! They all seem to be giving conflicting advice, but in reality they are not. They are talking about specific cases. Just as a surgeon would prefer to cut you open and pull out the bad parts, while a pharmacists would prefer to hit you with a barrage of drugs, and a shrink would just want you to talk, so too there are different approaches to studio design. Having said that, there's still a lot of garbage out there, that does not fit into any valid category of acoustics! There's an awful lot of snake-oil out there, waiting to be sold....oh, hang on, they don't really cover what I might want to do, or if they do, they don't exactly agree.... there's so many differing opinions out there that one needs to be an expert to sort the wheat from the chaff - but even there, what is wheat and what is chaff will depend on perspective, one man's ceiling is anther man's floor, and all that
You could ask some of my customers. And some of John's. And some of Andre's. And some of Glenn's.... :) They don't seem to have run into that issue!I wish it was as easy as paying one man to "project manage" the whole thing, but It's not, is it?
Take a look here, and give Rod a call: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20471 He'd be happy to chat to you, I'm sure. Even though I have never been to his place, and never met him in person, and never even spoken to him on the phone, his place seems to have worked out OK. Check out his website, too: he asked me to write up a brief "The Making Of" story, regarding how it all worked out. John can likely put you in touch with a couple of his customers too, if you want. It might interest you to know that for the vast majority of studios I design, I never get to see them, or visit them, or meet the owners. Pretty much all of what I do is over the internet, from first contact through the entire design process, as well as the construction supervision, the system calibration, treatment, and final tuning. That is entirely feasible today. All of that can be done over the Internet, very simply and easily. I'm pretty sure that John works the same way. 20 years ago that was not possible, but today, it's the way things are done.How would I know if it's possible to project manage from another country without being able to get a feel for the subtleties of a space?
Good point! :)How do I know if a local guy who can visit the space often, has enough experience in my kind of build to get it right?
There does not have to be a conflict between those two. What works should automatically be a great place to sit in each day. I'm a firm believer in "form follows function", meaning that the studio should first and foremost be designed for optimum acoustics, then the aesthetic and artistic side can be put into place around that, to make it look nice and feel nice, as well as sounding nice. On the other hand, if you try to design the place so that it looks nice as first priority, then try to shoe-horn in the acoustics without changing the looks, you'll never get good acoustics. It might win awards for beautiful architecture, but it wont be a studio, and won't attract clients who need quality sound. Here too things have changed over the last 20 years. What used to pass for "acceptable" acoustics is now junk. What used to be great is now merely "OK". What used to be spectacular is now just "pretty good". So your customers who are looking for the latest and greatest, expecting that a brand new studio in a city such as Melbourne will sound leading-edge, are going to be rather disappointed if it only sounds like a place built 20 years ago. Back then, there were people with reputations who built places that other people liked. Today there are internationally recognized technical specifications that a room needs to met in order to be considered great, and those specs can be checked and measured reasonably well by a guy with an app on his cell phone! You can't fool people the way you once could. Today, if you want to compete in the high end, then it takes more than the impressive logo on your console or speakers, or the range of big-dollar mics in your mic cabinet, or the range of sticks and platters on your drum inventory. The studio itself also has to meet the specs, or at least get close. So yes, things have changed: studios are built differently today, and to higher standards. If you want yours to compete and beat the competition, yours has to be up there, at the same level as the best of them. Not 20 years behind.How do I know if it's possible to reach a compromise b/n what "works" and what feels good to sit in the middle of each day?
OK, down-to-earth, up-front, in-your-face, no-punches-pulled realism: It will take you roughly three to six months to get from where you are right now, to the point where you have a good enough grasp of acoustics to be able to design your place yourself. It will take you another couple of months to learn the techniques, construction materials, and methods for actually designing the place (including structural, HVAC, acoustic, electrical, and architectural), as well as learning the design software, then another three to six months to actually design it in full detail, and optimize the design. Then, and only then, would you be ready to apply for your permits, do your BoM, figure out your final budget, and actually pick up a hammer for the first time. Call it a year, to be on the safe side. That's a realistic estimate of what it takes for a typical person with some knowledge but nothing specialized, to get to the right point. That might see like a lot, perhaps exaggerated even, but it really isn't. As with learning any new skill, it takes about 2,000 hours of research and study and practice to become reasonably proficient, and about 10,000 hours to be come "skillful". Some people come along with the idea that it isn't that hard, and can be done on a few weeks, but that's sort of like me telling you: "I'd like to learn the guitar: I'm sure I'll able to play like Peter Framptom by the end of the month". Or saying "I just bought my first drum kit: I reckon by June I can keep up with Phil Collins, and do concerts like he does". :) I'm sure you get the point. You can't get from nothing to expert in a few weeks. Now, if that's the way you want to go, then excellent! You can bet I'll be happy to help you along the way. No problem. I'd just insist that you don't pick up a hammer until you have the completed final design, in April of 2018.... :) If you can leave your place on hold for that long, then go for it! Many forum members have done just that, and then built excellent studios. You'll find their stories all over the forum: but check the "start date" and "end date" of their threads, to see if I'm telling it like it is, or not...As for your question- Am I looking for a professional designer, or do I want to design the space myself? - I think the answer is both! I'd love to have something designed around my idiosyncratic needs... ... I'm a musician, producer, and studio manager - in that order. One thing I am not, and that is an acoustic engineer, nor am I an architect, electrician or HVAC consultant.
Not at all! As I said, many forum members do that! But not in a couple of months. I'm sure you can, if you want to.... but "a few months" is not realistic. It will take you about as long as it takes a neophyte musician to go from picking up a guitar for the first time, to playing flawlessly in concert doing a Peter Frampton cover. How long does that take, realistically? As a musician, you know it can't be done, except maybe by the most talented and dedicated. For most people, it would be a year or so. Just like it looks really simple to stand on stage and pluck a few strings with your fingers, while stomping on pedals with your feet, but turns out to be quite different when you actually have to do it, so to it looks simple to draw a few lines on a bit of paper and call it a "studio", but it's actaull not that easy once you try. I'm sure you'll find any number of forum members who can vouch for that! Or look at the statistics here: we have over 21,000 members on the forum, all of whom came here with the desire to design and build their own studios, but only a few hundred who actually went though with it to completion. There's a saying in Spanish: "Otra cosa con guitarra", which translates roughly as "It's another thing when you actually have the guitar", meaning that it's one thing to listen to guitar music and comment on it, and quite another to actually pick one up and play. It's one thing to arm-chair quarterback a football game on TV, and quite another to actually be out there on the field. It's one thing to manage a studio, and quite another to design one... :) There's also the issue of usage: Do you really want to spend a year learning a skill that you might only use once or twice in your life? Maybe someone might have a dream to learn the guitar well enough to just once stand on stage and do a concert of Peter Frampton's greatest hits, then give it up forever and go back to what he normally does.... But personally, I'm not sure I see the point in that! Don't get me wrong! I'm not saying you should not try! By all means, if you have the time and the inclination, then go ahead! I'm just giving you a real-world point of reference about what you should expect in your voyage.While it's ok throw up a bunch of equations and say " the numbers don't lie"- it must certainly seem an insult to your profession to think that a musician could down his own tools for a few months and learn to be a studio designer by receiving guidance on a single internet forum.
Of course! But do try with John first. It's his forum, not mine. I'm just here by invitation. I don't work for John, and I certainly don't want to be first on the list of people that forum members contact for design services! John just allows me to run this forum for him (even though I've never met him either!), but I definitely should not be your first choice for designing your place. He has years more experience than I do, and indeed I learned a huge amount about studio design from him, so please don't put me at the top of your list. Also, I'm rather snowed under right now with several projects in various parts of the world, so I would not be able to take on your project immediately anyway: Contact John first. If he is also too busy to be able to take on your project, and you don't mind waiting a bit for me, then we can talk.But I will try to do as you suggest, only that, if I can't deal with it, could I engage your service on a professional level?
:oops: :oops: :oops: Thanks for the compliment! :oops: - Stuart -Thanks again for your (free) help. FWIW, it's the best I've had, by far!...
Been reading some of John's blogs, but they seem very outdated. TBH, I think from what I've read, that your perspective on things is closer to my needs that perhaps John's, even though you obviously learned heavily from him...
I can wait, I can'd commence building for 2 months anyway, which gives me some time to get a design happening, right? 8) Still lots of solutions to consider to my main problem - how to get 70dB T/L for a drum kit with an office on the other side of the Live Room?
I think I can calculate the resonant frequency for a double leaf floor or wall system, but I can't find a calculator for low frequency Transmission Loss through similar systems.
For example, If I get a floor or wall down to 14.1 Hz - with the lowest "working" frequency at 20 hz - then that tells me nothing about how much T/L to expect at , say, 40Hz. What I'd like to know is what kind of a wall will provide 70 dB isolation for a drum kit at 115 dB, assuming this will be enough to be of little disturbance to someone on the other side of said wall. How much mass on each wall and how deep an air gap (insulation filled)?
Given that a drummer will be right next to an adjoining office, If it was too much expense, weight or space to get the whole room isolated, then is it possible to construct a small 6m2 drum booth away from the wall (but still within this room) with a concrete floating floor and massive walls and ceiling to get the required 70 db TL down to say 40hz? If I also "soundproofed" the rest of the room, and had the massive drum iso booth 2 metres away from the adjoining office wall, would that work? If so, then how massive and how deep should the cavity be in the drum booth? Should the drum booth be a single or double leaf? Either way, I'd have either a triple of quadruple leaf system (the rest of the room would still be box in a box). But given the distance between the 2 wall systems, surely this is OK?
I think I understand that it's pointless re decoupling the drum booth floor from the already decoupled room around it, but surely it helps to have a thicker slab of concrete below the drum booth than for the rest of the room? And thicker ceiling?
A lot of questions, I know, but you seem to like details, so......
I did give you the equations in one of my posts on page 2 of this thread, here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20980&start=28 It's not just a calculator that you need: it's a bit more complex than that! You need all of those equations: Mass Law, MSM resonance, and the others. There are several regions of the audio spectrum that have different isolation properties, depending on how the wall is built, which is why you need those equations: so you can calculate isolation in each of the regions. There's also the issue of the coincidence dip, which usually isn't a problem for studios that only need low to medium isolation. But for studios that need high isolation it does become an issue, so you need to take it into account. But to understand how to do that, you'll first need to do some research on bending waves, and non-normal incidence of sound waves, and the acoustic impedance change at wall boundaries.I think I can calculate the resonant frequency for a double leaf floor or wall system, but I can't find a calculator for low frequency Transmission Loss through similar systems.
See above! :) That's where the other equations come in. You calculate the mass law TL for each leaf, and f0, then you use the equations to determine isolation for each region.For example, If I get a floor or wall down to 14.1 Hz - with the lowest "working" frequency at 20 hz - then that tells me nothing about how much T/L to expect at , say, 40Hz.
A big one? :) Seriously, the answers are all in those equations. You might want to spend some time creating a spreadsheet that will do it for you and graph the predicted results. That's fine for walls, but when it comes to floors, you also have to take into account the "other" spring: Even though air is still your primary spring for floated floors, you also have the secondary spring(s) that run in parallel with that: the isolation mounts on which your slab rests. Since they are in parallel with the air spring, and since this is basically resistance we are talking about, the resilience of the isolation mounts reduces the total isolation: it weakens the effect of the air spring, in other words. So you can't get an accurate picture of how your floor will isolate from considering only the air in the cavity: you need to consider the reduction due to the physical springs.What I'd like to know is what kind of a wall will provide 70 dB isolation for a drum kit at 115 dB,
That's where you need the Fletcher-Munson curves: You need to fit those to the results of your calculated TL and see if the final outcome will be good enough that your drums are inaudible in the office next door. 115-70=45, so you'll be looking at the 40 and 50 phon curves, and the ones adjacent to those, then comparing that to the the typical sound levels in the office nest to you, and seeing how that looks.provide 70 dB isolation for a drum kit at 115 dB, assuming this will be enough to be of little disturbance to someone on the other side of said wall.
Not with my layout he wont! :)Given that a drummer will be right next to an adjoining office,
It's possible, yes, but you and I both know that a 6m2 drum booth is not a drum booth at all! It's a closet. Drums recorded in there would sound pretty bad. Drums need air, space, ambiance. In fact, with a decent sized drum kit having lots of pieces, you would not even be able to fit it into 6m2, along with the mics and the drummer... So it is technically feasible to do that, but in reality it's not practical. You would not have many return customers in your drum booth... only first timers who you managed to fool into coming... :)If it was too much expense, weight or space to get the whole room isolated, then is it possible to construct a small 6m2 drum booth
:) - Stuart -A lot of questions, I know, but you seem to like details, so......
OK, will check that equation again, cheers. As for the fortified, lead encased, nuke-proof, drum bunker from hell,... let's say we make it 10 m2 ;) PZM's on the walls, and PZM's on the outside of the window. Not ideal, but I have done this in the past in small rooms and it was surprisingly good!
Realistically, according to the maths, I should be able to get away with a fairly light weight booth if it created enough distance between the drums and the office wall, right? Been looking into acoustic, glass panelled folding doors that could possibly open all the way back out to the Live Room walls for ordinary room use, and just use the folding walls to enclose the drum booth on the (hopefully) rare occasions when I really need to record something loud during business hours. Of course, even if the adjacent office was happy in this instance, doesn't mean the poor folks beneath me would be!... That's why the idea came to me about thickening the floor for the drum booth, or, if I wanted the floor level to be even throughout the entire live room (and I do), then maybe I could have steel plate for part of the drum room floor? Steel is actually not that expensive, why don't we hear about it being used for studio isolation so much?
Hi Stuart, I'm still gathering information and ideas, like the idea of using plate steel for the floor, and while I'm thinking outside the box, what about concrete pavers as opposed to poured concrete? The quote for formwork, laying, pumping and for the concrete itself turns out to be at least twice the price of the equivalent amount of square metres for 2 layers of 30 mm thick concrete pavers. Plus, I'd need to pay a 50% after hours surcharge for the concreters to work outside business hours, which would be necessary owing to the fact that I can't run a line pump up the fire stairs during business hours. So yeah, that's an idea waiting to be shot down, so shoot away! ;)
Slowly gaining the required understanding of basics, but still running into walls- speaking of which, floating walls vs walls on floating floors.... Why can't the walls float on rubber or spring isolators the same way the floor will be? Why wouldn't it perform as well? I understand that resting on the floor the walls and perhaps ceiling, the added weight to the floor and subsequent spring deflection would be such that any varying live load would do little to move the springs out of their "Goldilocks" zone. But if the floating structure (steel, concrete or pavers) has a surface density of say 150kg/m2, then surely that is heavy enough to avoid wide differentials of live loading?
You must admit there are advantages in not placing walls on floating floors, like: easier to calculate, no "crowning" effect, less direct loading on the underlying structure (remembering our limitations), easier to construct etc, so why does it seem from my reading that floating the walls separately is not as commonly done? I should remind you that I'm thinking to have 3 x 15mm CFC sheet walls (75kg/m2).
The other new idea is to have drum and amp booths on the window side of the live area, but that they be composed of heavy duty acoustic folding walls that can be moved either into a stack, or against the wall, either way opening out the live area where appropriate or desirable to do so. These walls are top rollers with no bottom rail, have glass panels, and have a heavy duty drop seal when in place. Even if these walls have an STC (or RW?) in the early 30's, the fact that the nearest neighbouring wall is metres away should ensure a significant TL by virtue of the principle that light weight leaves need very large gaps to be effective. On top of this, I'm also contemplating having a larger air gap of say 250mm between the 2 leaves of the LR, while only 150 for the CR. In fact I'm considering having less mass for walls , ceiling and even floor for the CR.
I know it sounds like I really need to be asking John to take the reins, and I may still end up going that route, but I'm enjoying investigating/exhausting all these "outta the box" ideas first. Certainly don't wanna die wondering..... :?
I'm a little late on the reply, but I only just came across your thread again... :oops:
How would you attach them to each other? Mortar? What if it cracks? Is it the same density as the concrete? How would you seal that? Is that allowed by code? Would your inspector / authorities approve that as the base surface? Do you have any acoustic data on how that would work in practice? Has it ever been done before?what about concrete pavers as opposed to poured concrete?
How would you achieve a seal between the walls and the floor, while still allowing them to move independently and yet also attaining the very high mass (density) that you need? What materials would you use for that? Would it be able to handle the stresses and strains from thousands of kg of mass moving in different directions at the same time, at different frequencies? Has it been tested for that?floating walls vs walls on floating floors.... Why can't the walls float on rubber or spring isolators the same way the floor will be?
Ummmm.... I don't think I'll be admitting that.... :)You must admit there are advantages in not placing walls on floating floors,
Really? So you'd prefer to do three sets of calculations, one for the line loading of the walls, one for the area loading of the floor, and one for the properties of the resilient layer that bonds them together yet allows them to move independently while not transferring any load, stress, or tensions between them in either direction, while also retaining the air-tight seal, as well as providing the necessary surface density? I'm not sure that I'd agree with you that this is "easier to calculate".... :)easier to calculate,
I'm not sure what you mean by that term. Please explain.no "crowning" effect,
:shock: :?: :!: Ummm... How do you figure that??? If the walls hypothetically weigh 3000 kg, and the floor hypothetically weighs 3000 kg, no matter which way you look at it, you have 6000 kg there! If your floor area is hypothetically 60m2, then you have a load of 100 kg/m2, no matter how you look at it. The load is the same. It's the way you SPREAD the load that matters, and from that point of view, the load is spread better if the walls rest on the slab, than if you do it separately. If your walls are NOT on the slab, then you have a line load : all that mass is resting in a very thin line on the floor, so there's a very high load along that line. But if the walls are resting on the floating slab, then the load is spread out over a much wider area (assuming that your isolation springs are laid out correctly....less direct loading on the underlying structure
Really? :) SO you think that attempting to float TWO massive assemblies is easier than trying to float one? Especially considering that they would just be a few mm separate from each other, and must be built independently.... I'm not sure I'd agree that this is "easier"...easier to construct etc,
:) See above...so why does it seem from my reading that floating the walls separately is not as commonly done?
I have a better idea than that... :) In less thickness you'd get the same mass (or more), plus the advantages of non-rigid mass... :)I should remind you that I'm thinking to have 3 x 15mm CFC sheet walls (75kg/m2)
It seems like you really are not thinking this through! :) Movable walls that weight thousands of kg? Ummm.... How would you move them? Where will you have the hydraulic pumps and/or electric motors to do that? What type of mechanism would you build that would allow you to move such massive objects? Are you considering that when they are "folded" against the other walls, there will be a huge line load at that point, probably beyond the ability of the building structure to handle? How would you account for that in your isolators for your floating slab? The load would be doubling and halving along that edge as you open and close the "walls".... How would you achieve an air-tight seal between the sections of the wall, along the "folds"? What would you do with the treatment that is on the walls of the booths and the live room, as you move the walls around? How would you account for that in the tuning of the room?The other new idea is to have drum and amp booths on the window side of the live area, but that they be composed of heavy duty acoustic folding walls that can be moved either into a stack, or against the wall,
So they are no better than typical house walls? Yet you need to go to all that expense and complexity, just to get lousy isolation? Ummm....these walls have an STC (or RW?) in the early 30's
Ummm.... I'm not sure I'd agree with your line of thinking here...the fact that the nearest neighbouring wall is metres away should ensure a significant TL
:shock: Why? You have a very small area to start with, and you want to sacrifice half a meter of length and width? I'm not following your line of reasoning at all here. Sorry...I'm also contemplating having a larger air gap of say 250mm between the 2 leaves of the LR,
... implying that you don't actually expect to get high isolation at all... OK, reality check time: You are trying to do what lots of people in your situation have tried to do: Attempt to find a way around the laws of physics, in the hope that there's a magical set of materials that will get you more isolation than it is physically possible to have. Unfortunately, you cannot "wish away" the laws of physics; they will still apply to your studio, just as they apply everywhere else in the known universe. The most basic problem here is that you are attempting to build a studio that needs very high isolation, on an upper floor. The laws of physics REQUIRE that in order to get the level of isolation that you need (TL), you need a lot of mass. Period. There's no way around that. You have a LIMITATION on the amount of mass that you can use, due to the structure of the building. There's no way around that without modifying the existing structure. So that requirement is running head-on, smack-bang into the middle of that limitation, and there just isn't any way around that. You cannot get high isolation without high mass. Period. Yes, you can increase the air gap to improve isolation, but look at the math! Each time you double the air gap, you get an increase of maybe 3 dB. But each time you double the mass, you get an increase of maybe 12 dB!! It's a no brainer. You have to give up huge amounts of space to get decent increase in gap isolation, as compared to mass increase. A tiny studio with a low ceiling and raised floor will have lousy acoustics, and there's no way around that either! Another law of physics. You cannot make a small room sound like a large one (I could go into all the reasons why that isn't possible, but I'm assuming you already know this is true: you cannot make the broom closet sound like an aircraft hanger, no matter what you do.) So, the ONLY answer here, as with all studios, is compromise. Something has to give. You cannot get where you want to go, so either you have to make a plan to go somewhere else (a different studio location, different building), or you have to accept where you CAN go with this one, which isn't where you WANT to go. OK, so how would I go about this, if it were my studio? First, I'd sit down with the structural engineer and get a detailed analysis, in writing, of the TOTAL load that I can place on that floor, and also of three or four ways I could distribute that as a set of POINT LOADS on a regular grid without overloading the floor. I would then total up the weight of all of my gear, furniture, instruments, decorations, etc., and the maximum load due to occupancy, PLUS the load of the existing partition walls that are already there, and SUBTRACT that subtotal from my total available load, to come up with a figure that is the absolute maximum possible weight that I can have for all of my walls, floor, ceiling, windows, doors, HVAC system, electrical system, etc. Then I would work backwards from there to see what the maximum possible surface density is that I could conceivably have for my outer-leaf and inner-leaf. With that number in hand, I'd then look at realistic air cavity depths, and see what type of isolation I can expect, and what frequencies I can expect it at. Then, and only then, would I make the decision about whether or not that is acceptable. If it turns out that it is not acceptable, I'd pick up the phone and call the real estate agent to find me another location for my studio. That's what I would do. I would not try to invent untested combinations of esoteric materials that nobody every thought of before, in the hope that they would bypass the laws of physics. I would just look at the reality, do some math, and come up with an answer. If the answer is "ZZ dB total, with YY dB at ZZ Hz", and that's good for my needs, then I'd go ahead and build it. If that combination is NOT good for my needs, then I'd cut my losses and go elsewhere. It's that simple. I'm guessing that you were hoping I'd have a different answer for you, but unfortunately I don't. All I have is the laws of physics, the limitations imposed by your building, math, and reality.In fact I'm considering having less mass for walls , ceiling and even floor for the CR.
Cool! Have fun with that, by all means, but I'm seriously doubting that your answers will be any different than those discovered by all who preceded you down the same path... :) Eventually, you'll have to get back "into the box".... :) - Stuart -but I'm enjoying investigating/exhausting all these "outta the box" ideas first.