Hello Community,
New member here from Australia with a new studio construction underway.
This is a semi budgeted "near field monitoring" studio construction, designed by myself.
The dimensions of the room are 4.5m W x 6m L x 2.5m H
In feet this is 14.8' W x 19.7' L x 8.2' H
The concept was that 4.5m allows upto 2m of spacing between monitors while having 1m space from the sides of the walls.
The 6m long was so that I can be 1m away from the front wall and still be 5m from the back wall.
I have read around that near field monitors shouldn't be spaced any further than 2m apart, mine are currently about 1.8m spaced apart.
Sound Proofing wasn't as big as a priority as this construction is on its own cement slab and land separate from any other buildings.
So for interests sake this will be the construction of the walls, any input is welcome:
(1) Outside wall is going to a few inches thick foam wall with fibreglass and rock coating ontop.
(2) Next will be a layer of thin foil insulation sheets, will tape sheets together to prevent air gaps.
(3) Next will be standard wall insulation with acoustic properties.
(4) A layer of 4kg / m2 mass loaded vinyl
(5) Compressed wood board for inside walls
(6) Depending how the room sounds , possible a layer of "acoustic" fabric, typically wool or polyester Velour type fabrics, might stick it straight on with something like velcro or staples, or make some wood architrave frames with fabric layered on the frames and attached to the walls leaving a few cm spacing between wall and material.
Im not sure whether or not if its worth the effort of doing the floating wall trusses and clips as the studio is about 15m away from the main house, whats your guys thoughts ? I just don't want anyone to hear the low end bass doof doof kick drums at night time up at the main house when sleeping.
Ok so this leads to my question about having a angled ceiling or not ?
with the dimensions of 4.5m wide x 6m long x 2.5m high whats your guys thoughts on a angled ceiling ? What would be a ideal angle for these dimensions ? or should I just have a flat ceiling ?
I read around that angled ceilings are ok at scattering vertical standing waves between the floor and ceiling. But I am un-certain on this subject and I don't want un-predictable results that may result in degrading the room acoustics quality.
Im looking for any input on a ideal ceiling angle for my room dimensions 4.5m wide x 6m long x 2.5m high, would be appreciated.
Thanks :shot:
New Studio Build, Should I Have a Angled Ceiling or Not ?
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 20916.
To make the question a little bit easier to understand:
(Q1) Would any random angle be better than a flat Ceiling ?
(Q2) What kind of angles should be avoided ? (If any)
Hoping someone can provide a little insight into this subject as I am un-certain and can't find much good information online.
Thanks
Hi there "spacev2", and Welcome! :)
For that width of room, the monitors should be set up roughly 126 cm from the side walls, meaning they will be 198 apart. Far more important than spacing from the side walls and distance apart, is the correct overall geometry of the speakers and listening position.The concept was that 4.5m allows upto 2m of spacing between monitors while having 1m space from the sides of the walls.
1m from the front wall is a pretty bad distance. 1m from the front wall places your first SBIR null at 86 Hz, which is pretty much where the kick drum often lives, as well as being smack in the middle of the more commonly played notes on a bass guitar, in addition to the low end of the piano and keyboards. Not a good place to have a massive null! Speakers should never be placed closer than about 2.5m to a wall, unless they are really close to it (less than about 50 cm): That's the distance range that puts the first SBIR null squarely in the low end of the scale, where it is most noticeable and most serious. I'm not sure where you got that distance from, but wherever source it was, you can safely ignore it: Simple math and physics clearly shows it to be grossly flawed.The 6m long was so that I can be 1m away from the front wall and still be 5m from the back wall
Actually, the name "near field monitor" is mostly marketing hype, with very little technical or acoustical backing! There is no technical definition of what a "near field" is, or does, or how a "near field" monitor should respond or perform. Do a google search on "definition of near field", and you'll see what I mean. If you ask four different manufactures what their definition of "near field monitor" is, you'll probably get six different and contradictory answers! Some will claim that it refers to a certain listening distance, others to a certain location in the room for the speakers, or certain location in the room for the listening position, yet others to a certain separation distance, or room volume, or Q, or coverage angle, or SPL level, or power rating vs. frequency, or flatness of response, or any number of other things. But no two will agree on the definition, and none of them will point you at a technical reference work that defines the concept of "near field monitor", because there is no such thing! Yes, there is such a thing as a "near field" in acoustics, but no you would not want to use that as a definition for what your monitors are suppose to do, since it makes pretty much ANY speaker in ANY reasonably sized room, "near field". In other words, whatever it was you read about "near field monitors" needing to be positioned a certain distance apart, is pure garbage, and likely came from a manufacturer whose speakers happen to perform rather well at that range. That, too, you can safely ignore. Take a look at ITU document BS.1116-2 to find our how rooms should be laid out, and how speakers should be positioned. In reality, the correct listening distance for any specific speaker, is no closer then the distance at which the fields from the various drivers and ports are fully merged with each other, and no further away than the critical distance for the room where they are being used. That's the correct range. If you get any closer than the distance where the fields merge, you will hear one of the drivers louder than than the others, and with various undesirable artifacts. You can find this distance yourself, for your own speakers in your own room, by simply experimenting: Start up close, with your face just inches away from the speaker baffle, move your head up and down, side to side, forward and back while listening carefully, and note the huge changes in volume, pitch, phase, etc. Now take a small step back (just a couple of inches), and listen again in the same way. The differences will be smaller, but still very noticeable. Take another small step back... problems will still be there, but a bit less. Keep moving back until you can no longer hear any difference at all as you move your head around, even a foot or two to the left and right, and several inches up and down. Take one more small step back, and that's the closest distance you should be to YOUR speaker in YOUR room. Call that the start of the "near field" if you will, but it's just as much about the room as it is about the speaker. Do the same test with the same identical speaker in a different room, and you will find a different result. And that's the reason for my rant! If the "near field" distance changes for each room, then how is it possible to market a speaker as "near field", if the definition itself depends on the room, not the speaker? Beat's me!I have read around that near field monitors shouldn't be spaced any further than 2m apart, mine are currently about 1.8m spaced apart.
Great! That's an excellent start.Sound Proofing wasn't as big as a priority as this construction is on its own cement slab
I'm not sure what that is. Please post a photo, or a link to the product you are talking about. There does not seem to be any mass at all in that leaf.(1) Outside wall is going to a few inches thick foam wall with fibreglass and rock coating ontop.
Why? For what purpose? You don't say which part of Australia you live in (and this is why we insist on good location as being part of the profile of each member!), but assuming that it is somewhere on the East coast, where most of the population lives, you would want your vapor barrier up against the inner leaf, not in the middle of the wall. Put that in the wrong place in a warm humid climate, and you'll end up with mold inside your walls...(2) Next will be a layer of thin foil insulation sheets, will tape sheets together to prevent air gaps.
All insulation has acoustic properties: it just differs from product to product. Sometimes it is acoustically useful, sometimes it is not. I don't think there is such a thing as "standard wall insulation" in Australia: Rather, there's a broad range of insulation types, densities, ratings, and thicknesses. The "standard" type used most often in Cairns or Darwin would be rather different from the "standard" type used in Wollongong, which in turn would be different from the "standard" type used in Hobart. It would be better if you could specify the actual characteristics of the insulation you plan to use: fiberglass or mineral wool? Rolls or batts? Fluffy, semi-rigid, or rigid? Faced or unfaced? Density? Gas flow resistivity? Thickness?(3) Next will be standard wall insulation with acoustic properties.
You must have a lot of money to throw around! :) MLV is hugely expensive, and holds no acoustic benefit for the situation you are talking about. MLV does have uses in acoustics, and I use it in many of the studios that I design for my customers, but only in the places where it is really needed. Mainly due to the massive cost. Compare: 16mm drywall (plasterboard) costs around AUD$14 per square meter at your local Bunnings. 4 kg MLV costs around UD$32 per square meter, but you'd need three layers of it to get the same mass as that single sheet of drywall, so the total cost would be around AUD$ 96 /m2, vs. 14 for the drywall. Same amount of mass, same acoustic effect, but seven times the price! :shock:(4) A layer of 4kg / m2 mass loaded vinyl
What do you mean by "compressed wood"? That can mean many different things. Are you talking about something like Homasote? OR something like OSB? Or maybe more like MDF? Or perhaps plywood? Or something else entirely? Each of those has it's own acosutic characteristics, so it's important to know which one you are talking about, as well as the thickness you are considering, and how many layers of it you plan to use.(5) Compressed wood board for inside walls
Stapling true acoustic fabric over an empty frame will accomplish absolutely nothing. It will do exactly the same as having just the frame. The entire purpose of acoustic fabric is that it is acoustically transparent! It does not affect the sound that passes through it, or affects it only minimally. So having "nothing" on top of air is the same as just having air.(6) Depending how the room sounds , possible a layer of "acoustic" fabric, typically wool or polyester Velour type fabrics, might stick it straight on with something like velcro or staples, or make some wood architrave frames with fabric layered on the frames and attached to the walls leaving a few cm spacing between wall and material.
What are "wall trusses"? Is that a term that is specific to some parts of Australia? I've never heard it before, even though I have designed or helped to design several studios in Australia. Please explain what that is, and provide some photos of typical wall trusses. I probably know them by a different name.Im not sure whether or not if its worth the effort of doing the floating wall trusses
That's a tall order. A very tall order. To fully silence a live acoustic kick drum is really hard. It takes a lot of money to do that, but I'm assuming that your budget is very high already, since you have been talking about using some very expensive and exotic materials for your build, so I guess cost is not an issue. The drum kit is the loudest of all instruments (except maybe for a large pipe organ...): It can easily put out 115 dB when played moderately hard, and substantially more when you have a gorilla-drummer beating the daylights out of it as if his life depended on it! Call it 120 dBC, and you won't be far off. On the other hand, you want that to be silent just 15m away. Most people consider that around 30 dB is "silent", and 40 is "really quiet". Let's say your neighbors would be happy with 40 dB. 120-40 = 80 dB. So you need 80 dB of isolation. You'll get maybe ten or so from the distance, so your walls, floor, ceiling, windows, doors, HVAC system and electrical system all need to provide around 70 dB of isolation. That's pretty much the flanking limit for concrete slab on grade, and pretty much the limit for what a high-end commercial studio might specify in there brief for the construction of a new studio. To put that in perspective, you would need to block 10,000 times more sound that a typical house wall does. Literally ten thousand times. The decibel scale is logarithmic, so each time you go up ten points, that implies ten times the intensity. Going from 30 dB typical house wall) to 70 dB (your studio) is four steps, so 10 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 10,000. You need to block huge amounts of acoustic energy to accomplish that. To make it even worse, most of the energy in drums is in the low end of the spectrum, and the low end is the hardest part of all to isolate. Not trying to scare you: just putting it out there, for you to consider. Silencing the live acoustic drum kit is one of the toughest job a studio designer faces. It can be done: I designed a place for a customer in Australia who teaches drums for a living (so he has TWO kits going at once: his, and his student's), and he's really happy with the results: So are his neighbors. But it cost him many tens of thousands of dollars to achieve, and took him two years to build.I just don't want anyone to hear the low end bass doof doof kick drums at night time up at the main house when sleeping.
For what purpose? There are different reasons why you might want an angled ceiling, so you should explain which if those you are thinking of, then we'll be able to provide a useful answer. Right now, this is sort of like asking: "Do I need a bottle in my kitchen?", without saying what you might use the bottle for, nor what size, shape, or material you meant for your bottle. Plastic bottles would melt if you wanted to use them in the oven, and glass bottles would shatter tif your plan was to bounce them on the floor.... :) Define the use, and the reason, then we can tell you if it is a good idea or not.Ok so this leads to my question about having a angled ceiling or not ?
It could probably be useful, under certain conditions, for certain reasons, but probably not. Unless you meet those conditions, and have those reasons....with the dimensions of 4.5m wide x 6m long x 2.5m high whats your guys thoughts on a angled ceiling ?
What would be the ideal size for a kitchen bottle? :) Or maybe "How long should a piece of string be?". It all depends on the purpose.What would be a ideal angle for these dimensions ?
OK, that's a partial answer to the questions above: You are trying to reduce the effect of room modes. Yes, angled ceilings can help, but not to "scatter" the modes: an angled ceiling only moves the modes to different frequencies, and perhaps "smears" them to a certain extent. That can be a good thing... or it can be a bad thing, depending on what the modal response would have been without it, and what it would be with it. There's no hard rule, or simple answer, without knowing more about the plans: What is the angle? How much of the ceiling is angled? Which way is it angled, in relation to the sound sources and receivers? Does angling increase or decrease the room volume? Does it improve the modal spread, or make it worse? Does it improve the Bonello chart, making it smoother and better curved, or does it make it rougher and spiky? If you can answer those questions, then you can determine if it is a good idea or not.I read around that angled ceilings are ok at scattering vertical standing waves between the floor and ceiling
No. It would only be useful if it is angled to the correct degree that best achieves the desired result. If your desire is only to deal with flutter echo, then 12° is likely enough. If you wanted to smear some specific modes, you might be able to do it with 9°. But if you wanted to create a try RFZ, then it would probably need to be 15°, 20°, or perhaps more under certain conditions. You would need to do the math in all those cases. You can't just guess and throw things around your room at random! That would be like taking your car onto the highway, closing your eyes, and driving at random....(Q1) Would any random angle be better than a flat Ceiling ?
The ones that don't work for what you want to do! :) Sorry to be facetious, cryptic, and maybe even sarcastic, but that really is the best I can tell you, based on the little you mentioned in your post. If you state more clearly and in more detail the reasons why you want to angle your ceiling, then I'd be able to answer in a more useful, realistic, concrete manner. Rooms that are purely rectangular can have great acoustics, or lousy acoustics. Rooms that have angled ceilings splayed walls, or other odd shapes can also have great acoustics, or lousy acoustics. It's not just about the ceiling, although that does play an important role. It's about the entire room concept: the basic design decisions, the desired acoustic response, the materials, the shapes, sizes, distribution, and orientation of the treatment devices, the location of the sound sources and receivers, and a million other factors. Designing a studio involves a LOT more than just angling the ceiling.(Q2) What kind of angles should be avoided ? (If any)
Have you read "Master Handbook of Acoustics" by F. Alton Everest? If not, then I'd suggest that you buy that and read it, carefully, to get a better handle on the concepts. - Stuart -Hoping someone can provide a little insight into this subject as I am un-certain and can't find much good information online.
Hi Stuart,
Thanks for taking the time with that large reply.
Basically, I am a electronic music producer / sound designer. I have a diploma in Audio Engineering but I am not a mastering engineer, I do not work with live sound besides my hardware synthesizers. So the studio build is specifically for electronic music producing, sound designing and mixing.
Yes I understand the mis-conception with the definition of Near Field monitors, theres really no way to tell how the speakers behave without acoustic testing like on the genelec videos they show a video demonstration of how the sound refraction behaves out of the cabinets etc, this kind of information is more useful to the user.
Ok, so to avoid any confusion I am a musician at heart and I am not upto speed on all the latest and greatest acoustic terminologies and acoustic math formulas etc etc, all I want to do is make sounds and music while having a ok room to mix in.
Therefor while I appreciate your in depth response, it is far too excessive. Im just looking for a few basic tips , tricks and ideas.
From what I gather, I should just go with a flat ceiling because like you say there is too much un-predictability if you don't have the correct knowledge on the subject. So I guess I will go with the more predictable flat ceiling.
The wall is basically pretty standard to a normal studio construction but having fibreglass and rock coat ontop of the foam wall instead of weather board.
Rock Coating, Fibreglass coating, Foam wall, Foil sheet insulation, Wall insulation batts, Mass loaded vinyl, compressed wood. Here is a picture of the compressed wood board http://imgur.com/a/OKsdQ
I don't know the correct terminology for the floating wall trusses, basically just the aluminium rails that hold the floating wall clips. I was just wondering if its worth going that extra step with floating walls in my situation.
I will make sure the builders get that insulation in the right spot. I might just have my information mixed up, im not a builder.
Thanks for your info, im pretty sure I got my answer. Flat ceiling. Any other input on the construction is welcome but please keep it short, simple, to the point and in laymans terms, thanks for your help appreciate it.
P.S. this isn't a professional studio build, just a enthusiast / hobbyist build. cheers
So I guess my next question is:
(Q) What is a ideal distance to setup from the front wall with my room dimensions ?
thanks
So according to the Fundamental Frequency Calculator these are the results for my room.
27.5Hz (the fundamental frequency)
55Hz (the first harmonic),
82.5Hz (the second harmonic)
110Hz (the third harmonic)
But there is no info on good distances to setup from the front wall.
Most of my kicks and bass reside in the ranges of 30Hz - 49Hz but can go upto 55Hz
Setting up around the second harmonic 82.5Hz wouldn't bother me very much.
(Q) What is a ideal distance to setup from the front wall with my room dimensions ?
Thanks
Ok so I just checked in with my material supplier and the inside walls is going to be the smaller wood particle board, as shown here: http://imgur.com/7BIjyqv , discard the larger recycled wood chip board shown in previous post.
I am investigating into material costs for the de-coupling isolation wall clips and rails. I may aswell just do it if t he additional material cost isn't too much.
Things I could do better for the build:
- Use 2x layers of board with Green Glue
- Use board over the foam wall on outside walls instead of a fibreglass & rock coat.
And the question remains what is a good distance to setup from the front wall ? Im guessing around 2.5m - 3m ?
Thanks
The main reason I was considering compressed wood board for inside walls was because I have a friend who works this department and said he can get compressed wood board for cheap.
I just double checked with him and it is going to be Moisture Resistant MDF board, but I am un-certain as to how cheap he can actually get it compared to dry wall because I am just discovering that MDF is more expensive than dry wall, so im going to contact him and make sure to get a proper quote and comparison compared to dry wall before proceeding.
Moisture resistant MDF Board: http://imgur.com/GuooqAp
You seem to be missing the point: Unless you do to get up to speed on basic acoustics (not advanced: just basic concepts) then you'll never be able to design your room treatment successfully. Besides, pretty much all the "terminology" I used in my first response, was plain old construction terminology, not acoustic terminology.... Let me put it in musician terms: It's basically like your buddy telling "I want to learn to play the guitar like Peter Frampton, but don't teach me all that crap about chords and notes and octaves and keys and stuff. That's useless to me. Just give me a few basic tips, tricks and ideas, then I'll play like him!" Not sure if you get the point: Unless you learn the basics, you'll never get where you want to go. If your buddy refuses to learn notes, chords, octaves and "that crap", then you and I both know he will never even get to play "Bah Bah Black Sheep" decently! Same with your room: You want it to sound great so you can work in it well, but you don't want to put in the study time necessary to understand HOW to make it sound great. But that's actually not a problem: many people don't want to do that, so what they do is hire someone like John to design the place for them. If you want the sound of Peter Frampton live at your party, then either you put in the time to learn to play like he does, or you hire someone who already did learn, to go play at your party. You can't have it both ways.I am not upto speed on all the latest and greatest acoustic terminologies and acoustic math formulas etc etc, all I want to do is make sounds and music while having a ok room to mix in. Therefor while I appreciate your in depth response, it is far too excessive. Im just looking for a few basic tips , tricks and ideas.
No, I didn't say that: I said that there are many reasons why you might want to angle your ceiling, all of them valid and useful. And there are some reasons why you might NOT want to angle your ceiling, also valid and useful. The issue is not "un-predictability": it is predictable. But if you don't want to look into the possibilities, to see what would be best for your room, then you'll never get the best sound from your room. Like your buddy thinking he can play "Show Me The Way" on a ten dollar acoustic guitar with nylon strings: If he never looks into what type of guitar, strings, amp and speaker Peter Frampton used, he doesn't stand a chance of producing even something vaguely similar.From what I gather, I should just go with a flat ceiling because like you say there is too much un-predictability if you don't have the correct knowledge on the subject.
Quote from your hypothetical buddy: "So I guess I will go with the more predictable plastic strings".So I guess I will go with the more predictable flat ceiling.
You still are not explaining what you mean be "fibreglass" or "rock coat" or "foam wall". Are you talking about fiberglass insulation? Or are you talking about resin-hardened fiberglass, formed in a mold? When you say "rock coat", is that some type of paint that hardens like rock, or looks like rock, or is it a fake rock shape molded into the resin-hardened fiberglass surface, or is it real rock, or is it rock veneer? When you say "foam wall", are you talking about a wall that has Styrofoam insulation inside it, or an engineered wall built up as a Styrofoam layer sandwiched between two layers of OSB? Or are you talking about sculpted acoustic foam that has been applied to the wall? Or maybe just expanding polyurethane foam that has been used to seal the wall? Unless you define the non-standard terms you are using in terms that are normally used in construction, we will not be able to understand what you are dealing with, and we will not be able to give you any useful advice.The wall is basically pretty standard to a normal studio construction but having fibreglass and rock coat ontop of the foam wall instead of weather board.
Great! So we finally know that you are talking about OSB, not MDF, not plywood, not Homasote. We have one of your materials identified. So, how thick will that be?Here is a picture of the compressed wood board
Why do you still insist on using MLV when I already showed you that it is at least SEVEN TIMES more expensive than the product you really need, and will give you no extra benefits at all? DO you seriously want to throw away all those thousands of dollars? You say your room currently measures 4.5 x 6 x 2.5. That implies a wall surface area of (4.5x2.5x2) + (6x2.5x2) + (4.5x6) = 82 square meters. One layer of 16mm drywall will cost you 14x82 = AUD$ 1,148.00. The amount of MLV that you'd need to cover the same area and get the same mass, will cost you AUD$ 7,872: Do you REALLY want to waste more than six thousand dollars on a product that you do not need, and will not do anything for you? I mean, if you really do have six grand to throw away like that, then no problem! It will work, for sure. But most people here on the forum want to build their studios for the least amount of money they possibly can. I simply assumed you would want to do the same, but if you are filthy rich and want to flush money down the drain, I certainly won't try to stop you. It's your money: you earned it, and you can do whatever you want with it. I'd rather that you put it in a box and send it to me, though! :) By the same token, why do you still insist on using foil faced insulation in the middle of the wall, when I already warned you that it will lead to fungus and mold growing inside your walls, slowly destroying them from within? Are you not concerned about that? Does it not bother you that your room will slowly be eaten away while you work inside it?Rock Coating, Fibreglass coating, Foam wall, Foil sheet insulation, Wall insulation batts, Mass loaded vinyl,
In construction, when you talk about a "truss", this is what it refers to: A truss is the structure that supports the roof, and prevents the walls from collapsing outwards under the weight. In stagecraft, this is what a truss looks like: Its the structure that supports the lights, speakers, video screens, cameras, curtains, and other stuff that needs to be hung overhead. But walls don't have trusses. If you do a google search for "aluminium wall truss", all that you get is pictures of aluminium stage lighting trusses. In construction, it is extremely important to use the correct terminology, or nobody will understand you! It seems to me that you are referring to "hat channel", also known as "furring channel", not wall trusses. In addition, hat channel is usually made from galvanized steel, not aluminium. It looks like this: When properly mounted on RSIC-1 clips, it looks like this: Or when mounted on IsoMax clips, it looks like this: If you go to a hardware store and ask for "aluminium wall trusses and clips", you would get something very, very different from what you actually need, which is "steel hat channel and RSIC or IsoMax clips". Terminology is critical.I don't know the correct terminology for the floating wall trusses, basically just the aluminium rails that hold the floating wall clips.
Using hat channel and RSIC clips does NOT float your wall! Not even close. It merely decouples the sheathing from the framing, which is something entirely different. If you want to float your walls, then you do NOT need hat channel and clips (nor trusses). What you need is something like the Isosil line of products: You'd also need to do a lot of math to make sure that your wall really does float: if you put too much load on those pads, then they get over-compressed and "bottom out", and don't float. If you do not put enough load on those pads, then they are not compressed enough, and "top out", also not floating. That's how you float a wall. Not with clips and trusses.I was just wondering if its worth going that extra step with floating walls in my situation.
If you are going to act as your own GC (General Contractor), then you'll have to learn all this stuff! You have to learn how to be a builder, as well as how to be a studio designer, and how to be an architect, and how to be an acoustical engineer, and how to be a structural engineer.... If you can't or don't want to learn all those things, then you will have to hire people to do that for you. You will first need to hire a studio designer to actually design the place for you, taking into account all of the acoustics, layout, geometry, isolation, treatment, etc, then you'll have to hire an architect to turn the design into plans that you can present to your local authorities for approval, and a structural engineer to check the design for structural safety and code compliance, and put his signature and stamp of approval on it, then you'll have to hire a general contractor to supervise the build, and he will hire the actual bricklayers, framers, drywallers, carpenters, electricians, painters, HVAC team, etc. All you will have to do is pay the bills. That is, indeed, an option, and many home studio owners do just that: I am often hired by studio owners to be part of such a team, when they don't want to do all of that themselves. But just as often, I'm hired be people who DO want to do all of it themselves, and only want me to do the design. Sometimes I'm hired for consulting on just a specific aspect of the design, and nothing more. So you have lots of channels open to you. If you don't want to learn all this stuff, then you will have to hire people to do it for you. Or you could spend the time to learn it yourself, and save a bundle of money.I will make sure the builders get that insulation in the right spot. I might just have my information mixed up, im not a builder
Actually, no you didn't. That MIGHT be one possible answer, but I'm pretty sure you didn't get the right one, because you are not asking the right questions. At this stage in your project, the ceiling angle is the least of your worries. The very first issue you should be looking at, is isolation, often incorrectly called "soundproofing". The first question you need to answer, is "How many decibels of isolation do I need"? You have to have a specific number that you are aiming for. If not, you will not be able to determine how to build your walls, floor, ceiling, windows doors, and HVAC system. Every single part of those are defined by how much isolation you need. When you have that figured out, you should be looking at the acoustic response you want from your room, in order to determine how big it needs to be, what the room ratio will be, which determines what the modal response will. Then you should decide on the design concept that you want for your room: Do you want to use LEDE, NER, RFZ, CID, MR, or something else entirely? Once you have all of that in place, then, and only then, can you consider the question of whether or not it would be good to angle your ceiling. Going back to the musician analogy: Your asking about ceiling angles right now is the same as your hypothetical buddy coming to you to ask his very first question about how to play like Peter Frampton: "What shoes should I wear"? The question he is asking has no bearing at all on sounding like Peter Frampton! He might want to know that in order to LOOK like Peter Frampton eventually, but there's no point in buying the right shoes until he first has the right guitar, strings, pedals, amps, speakers, mics, etc. and has learned to play like him. Just like him, you are asking a question that simply isn't very important right now. There are far more important things that you need to be concentrating on first.Thanks for your info, im pretty sure I got my answer. Flat ceiling.
Comment from your hypothetical buddy: "Any other comment on how to play the guitar like Peter Frampton is welcome, but keep it short and simple and don't bother me with guitar terminology or complicated musical theory: I don't need to know what a "fret" is, or what "tuning" means, or what the "G flat key" is. Not important! Boring! Just give me tips on how to play, in laymans terms!" :)Any other input on the construction is welcome but please keep it short, simple, to the point and in laymans terms,
That makes no difference at all. The same laws of physics apply, and the same rules and regulations apply: They won't give you special treatment when the municipal building inspector comes to do your framing inspection: "Oh, this is just for your hobby? Ok, no problem, then. Your code violations are just fine. I'll pass your framing, even though it is done wrong and will probably collapse next week and kill you. No worries! She'll be right! After all, it's just a hobby studio, so who cares? No need to follow the law for that!". Likewise, I'm sure the sound waves rushing around inside your studio will say to each other; "Hey! It's just a HOBBY studio! So we don't need to behave like normal sound waves do everywhere else in the universe! We can relax our normal laws of motion, interaction with mass and air, and not do the things we always do. We'll go slower, and we won't bounce as much, and we'll never form into standing waves, or resonate, because it's just a hobby studio, ya know!." :) The purpose of the studio is irrelevant. You still have to obey the building code regulations, just like everyone else, and the sound waves will still obey the same laws of physics, just like they always do, for every other studio on the planet.P.S. this isn't a professional studio build, just a enthusiast / hobbyist build. cheer
Ideal distance for what? The location of your speakers? Or the location of the mix position? The speakers should go tight up against the front wall, as close as you can get them, except for a gap of 10cm, where you will insert a panel of 4" OC-703 to deal with the SBIR and comb filtering. Unless you go with an RFZ design, in which case your speakers would be mounted IN the walls, flush with the surface. That's the best possible situation for a small room, like yours. In a room 6m long, the theoretical best location for the mix position is 2.28 m from the front wall, but considering other factors, I would probably reduce that a little if I were designing that room, and make it more like 2.15m. Unless the speakers are flush-mounted, of course, which changes everything. It also depends in the specific make and model of speaker that will be used. Ah, what the hell... I might as well do the full layout for you... That's optimized for theoretical best. There's probably a slightly better location around there close by, to be found with careful testing with REW and ears, both before and after the treatment is in. - Stuart -(Q) What is a ideal distance to setup from the front wall with my room dimensions ?
Hi Stuart,
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate your free expertise information on the studio, however I wasn't expecting such a in-depth response on all aspects.
I just wanted to start with should I have a angled ceiling or not, then speaker placement and listening position.
Please understand that I spend most my time making music and not worrying so much about this stuff, I just want to make music and not read acoustic books.
Its a little difficult to extract all the information at once and to respond.
So lets try and start over:
(1) Outside walls will be some type of rigid foam panel insulation, im not sure if it will be placed onto some backing board or directly onto the frame, I am going to speak more to the builder about what exactly he is thinking.
(2) Some kind of foil sheet insulation goes somewhere
(3) Then a layer of standard wall insulation batts: http://insulation.com.au/product/pink-batts-insulation/
(4) Then a layer of 4kg / m2 Mass Loaded Vinyl which works out at $2,500 - $3,000 AUD for full coverage.
(5) I have decided I will also de-couple the walls with either the Green Glue Whisper Clips Deluxe or the Studco Resilimount M237R:
http://greenglue.com.au/Green-Glue-Whisper-Clips/
http://studcosystems.com.au/products/by ... tems.html#
(6) I have decided to cancel to MDF Board and just go with plain Dry Wall instead.
* Rockcote Acrylic Based Polymer Renders = https://www.rockcote.com.au/ranges/acry ... er-renders
* Fibreglass = Something like this I guess = https://www.techwalla.com/articles/how- ... -over-foam
I don't know if this is a improvement over any previous post lol, but I will try to find out more about outside wall construction and get back to you.
I still plan to go for a flat ceiling because I am un-comfortable with the subject and would prefer not to go through with it.
Thanks for your time and help, appreciate it.
That calculator is pretty useless, if all it gives you is the first four longitudinal axial modes! All that you have there is 1.0.0, 2.0.0, 3.0.0, and 4.0.0: There's MANY others in there! Bob Golds room mode calculator gives you this: 28.7 hz (1,0,0 Axial) 38.3 hz (0,1,0 Axial) 47.8 hz (1,1,0 Tangential) 57.4 hz (2,0,0 Axial) 69.0 hz (2,1,0 Tangential) 71.8 hz (0,0,1 Axial) 76.5 hz (0,2,0 Axial) 77.3 hz (1,0,1 Tangential) 81.3 hz (0,1,1 Tangential) 81.7 hz (1,2,0 Tangential) 86.1 hz (3,0,0 Axial) 86.2 hz (1,1,1 Oblique) 91.9 hz (2,0,1 Tangential) 94.2 hz (3,1,0 Tangential) 95.7 hz (2,2,0 Tangential) 99.5 hz (2,1,1 Oblique) 104.9 hz (0,2,1 Tangential) 108.8 hz (1,2,1 Oblique) 112.1 hz (3,0,1 Tangential) 114.8 hz (0,3,0 Axial) 114.8 hz (4,0,0 Axial) 115.2 hz (3,2,0 Tangential) 118.3 hz (1,3,0 Tangential) 118.4 hz (3,1,1 Oblique) 119.6 hz (2,2,1 Oblique) 121.0 hz (4,1,0 Tangential) 128.4 hz (2,3,0 Tangential) 135.4 hz (0,3,1 Tangential) 135.4 hz (4,0,1 Tangential) 135.7 hz (3,2,1 Oblique) 138.0 hz (4,2,0 Tangential) 138.4 hz (1,3,1 Oblique) 140.7 hz (4,1,1 Oblique) 143.5 hz (0,0,2 Axial) 143.5 hz (3,3,0 Tangential) 143.5 hz (5,0,0 Axial) 146.4 hz (1,0,2 Tangential) 147.1 hz (2,3,1 Oblique) 148.5 hz (0,1,2 Tangential) 148.5 hz (5,1,0 Tangential) That's all your modes under 150 Hz. NEVER ignore tangential and oblique modes. They can be just as problematic as axials. And as you can see, you have several problems there! Many of your modes line up with each other perfectly, or are really close to each other.... :shock: For example, at 86.1 Hz you have your 3,0,0 axial, and right on top of that at 86.2 Hz you have your 1,1,1 oblique. 86 Hz is a common tuning frequency for the kick drum.... so your kick will boooooooommmmm in that room....So according to the Fundamental Frequency Calculator these are the results for my room. 27.5Hz (the fundamental frequency) 55Hz (the first harmonic), 82.5Hz (the second harmonic) 110Hz (the third harmonic)
There is no info on that, because there is no relationship! Modal response has absolutely nothing to do with main speaker position. It can be slightly useful in positioning a sub in a problematic room, but does not affect the mains. The mains need to be positioned at the optimal location for mains, not at a location that would affect modes.But there is no info on good distances to setup from the front wall.
That's rather low for a kick, unless it is really big! Even 24" kicks don't usually get tuned that low. Even a 24" kick is commonly tuned to 52 on the batter head and 78 on the resonant head. Why do you tune your drums so low? And for bass that's also pretty low. Obviously, you use mostly 5-string and 6-string bass, since normal 4-string bass doesn't go that low. But they sure do go a lot higher! In fact, most of the notes on a bass guitar are above 55 Hz! Two thirds of them, in fact. Why do you play so darn low? To stay under 55 Hz, you pretty much have to play only the B and E strings.... You can't touch A D G or C, if you want to stay under 55.... That's a strange way to play... What type of music is it you make, anyway?Most of my kicks and bass reside in the ranges of 30Hz - 49Hz but can go upto 55Hz
Really? So you never play an E on your bass guitar, acoustic guitar, electric guitar, or keyboard? How do you avoid that? Do you specifically write the music so that it contains no E notes at all? :) Methinks you don't really understand the issues here. I'd really urge you to buy that book I mentioned before: "Master Handbook of Acoustics" by F. Alton Everest: You need it.Setting up around the second harmonic 82.5Hz wouldn't bother me very much.
So you are switching from OSB to MDF? Any particular reason? MDF is about 23% more dense than OSB, which is a good thing, but it's also a lot more expensive, usually. It's also a bit harder to work with...the inside walls is going to be the smaller wood particle board, as shown here:
OSB is not made from recycled wood chips.... It is made from young growth trees, chopped down and carefully processed. There might be some recycled content in there, but the majority comes from fresh wood.discard the larger recycled wood chip board shown in previous post.
On the other hand, yo could just decouple your entire inner-leaf frame, like most people do when they build MSM walls. It's a lot cheaper, and more effective, that using hat channel on clips.I am investigating into material costs for the de-coupling isolation wall clips and rails. I may aswell just do it if t he additional material cost isn't too much.
Yes, you could do that. It wold be a good idea, if you need high levels of isolation in low frequencies, and don't mind spending the extra money. GG is not cheap. Great stuff, but expensive.- Use 2x layers of board with Green Glue
In a room 6m long? :shock: :roll: That would put your head smack bang in the geometric center of the room, at the very worst possible location.... All of the first order modes have peaks at that point, and all of the second order modes have nulls there. Frequency response graphs for that spot look something like the mountains of Mars.... That would also place you just 3m from the back wall, so the round-trip bounce time to the back wall would be well inside the Haas time, and you'd suffer from all of the psycho-acoustic issues that that creates.And the question remains what is a good distance to setup from the front wall ? Im guessing around 2.5m - 3m ?
That's great, as long as it really is cheap! But drywall is usually the cheapest high-density material in most parts of the world. Compare the cost, kilogram for kilogram, of the MDF that he can get you vs. ordinary drywall from Bunnings. My bet is that the drywall will be less expensive. Don't forget to take into account that MDF is nearly 10% more dense than drywall, so you could go with panels that are 10% thinner for the same mass (surface density), or you could go with the same thickness and take advantage of the higher mass. - Stuart -The main reason I was considering compressed wood board for inside walls was because I have a friend who works this department and said he can get compressed wood board for cheap.
Hi Stuart,
Sorry for confusion. Please see updated post above.
Thanks
Hi Stuart,
So what exactly would of been a good solution to get more even modes in the room ?
The 4.5m x 6m cement slab is already built, so I just have to make do with what I got now.
An extra 1m+ of cement slab would of quickly increased the material costs all round, with my budget im not exactly sure if I could afford a larger slab. Might of been able to go slightly larger like 5m wide x 6m long, but oh well we will call that one a opportunity missed.
What exactly does de-coupling the entire inner leaf frame involve ? Materials and installation ? Im not familiar with this concept.
Lastly, I make deep dark twisted electronic music, so your references to acoustic kick drums are nothing remotely close to what im working with. It wouldn't be un-common for my kick and bass to go below 30Hz, most of my stuff is in the C0 - C1 octave range.
Thanks for your time and information, appreciate it.
Right, I get that, but that's actually approaching things from the wrong end. Speaker placement is more important that angled ceiling, and so are room dimensions, isolation, and a few other things.I just wanted to start with should I have a angled ceiling or not, then speaker placement and listening position.
Yup! I get that too! Not a problem. And like I said above, if you don't want to learn all this stuff yourself (especially considering that you'll probably never need to use it again in your life), then you do have the option of hiring people to do it for you.Please understand that I spend most my time making music and not worrying so much about this stuff, I just want to make music and not read acoustic books.
:thu:So lets try and start over:
You cannot leave the outer face of your building as rigid foam. It must have some type of siding or sheathing or other finish on it. Rigid foam is an insulation material, not a wall facing material. Many buildings these days are finished with vinyl siding, or stucco, or brick veneer, or something similar.(1) Outside walls will be some type of rigid foam panel insulation, im not sure if it will be placed onto some backing board or directly onto the frame, I am going to speak more to the builder about what exactly he is thinking.
Why? To me, it sounds like someone has convinced you that you absolutely must have this foil-faced insulation in there, but has not given you a reason. It is expensive, and you don't need it, probably.(2) Some kind of foil sheet insulation goes somewhere
ONce again, those are not "standard" batts. They are just one option among many. Bunnings, for example, also offers various types of mineral wool, fiberglass, and polyester insulation, as well as plain old Styrofoam insulation. Even that page you linked to shows a dozen different options. There is no such thing as "standard" insulation. Once again, it seems to me that someone has convinced you that you need a certain exact type of insulation, when the truth is that you don't. You need some type of insulation that will do the job of providing the acoustic damping on the MSM resonance of your wall cavity, as well as providing decent thermal insulation. There are many options. Get the one that does the job and costs the least.(3) Then a layer of standard wall insulation batts: http://insulation.com.au/product/pink-batts-insulation/
One more time: WHY????? As I have mentioned many times, MLV is extremely expensive, and you do not nee it! Whoever is trying to convince you that you should like your walls with MLV either has a vested interest in selling you expensive stuff that you do not need, or they don't have a clue about acoustic isolation. Either way, you should stop listening to them, do some research, and discover for yourself that what I am telling you is true. Forget the MLV! It will do nothing for you that cannot also be done at much lower cost with conventional building materials.(4) Then a layer of 4kg / m2 Mass Loaded Vinyl ...
Nope! As I said before, you have 82 square meters of wall and ceiling area to deal with. Right now, "soundproofing company" is listing it at AUD$ 210 for a pack that covers 6.75 m2 with one single layer. Here: http://www.soundproofingproducts.com.au ... ded-vinyl/ Do the math. 82 / 7.75 x 210 = $ 2,551 for ONE SINGLE LAYER! You will need FOUR layers to match the surface density of a single sheet of drywall (which will do the exact same job, acoustically). 4 x 2,551 = $ 10,204. The amount of MLV you need will cost you over ten thousand dollars. Do the math yourself. Bunnings has 16mm drywall at around 14 dollars per square meter. You only need one layer, since one layer of that is equivalent to four layers of MLV. 82 x 14 = $ 1,148. Here's the thing: sound waves cannot read price tags. They won't be impressed by how much you pay for your mass. They simple react to the mass itself. Here's the equation called "Mass Law" that tells you how much isolation you will get from a single-leaf wall: TL = 14.5 log (Ms * 0.205) + 23 dB where: Ms = Surface density in kg/m2. That's it! Please tell me where you would be able to indicate to that equation that you used extremely expensive mass, instead of cheap mass. How will you take that into account in the equation? There is NOTHING in that equation that allows you to indicate the cost. That's for a single leaf wall. Here's the equation for a two-leaf wall: MSM resonant frequency equation: Fc=c[(m1+m2)/(m1m2d)]^.5 where: Fc=resonant frequency (Hz) c=constant (ranging from 60 if there is no insulation in the cavity, to 42 if the cavity is full of excellent insulation) m1=surface density of first leaf (kg/m^2) m2=surface density leaf (kg/m^2) d=distance between the leaves (m) Once again, please show me where you can accommodate the price tag in there: How will you add the fact that your mass cost you ten times more than it should? Answer: there is no way of doing that! The price of the mass does not change the way it works. Mass is mass. The above equation gives you the resonant frequency of your wall, but not the isolation. For a two-leaf wall, there are three different regions in the musical spectrum that have different isolation characteristics, and need different equations. Here are the equations: Calculations for the three regions: R = 20log(f (m1 + m2)) - 47 for the region where f < f0 R = R1 + R2 + 20log(fd) - 29 for the region where f0 < f < f1 R = R1 + R2 + 6 for the region where f > f1 Where: f0 is the resonant frequency from the MSM resonant equation, f1 is 55/d Hz R1 and R2 are the transmission loss numbers using the mass law equation, for leaf #1 and leaf #2 Once again, there's no place to plug in your price tag! Mass is mass, and the sound waves really couldn't give a damn about the price tag. Just buy the lowest-cost mass that does the job. Usually, that is ordinary 16mm fire-rated drywall. Is is cheap, easy to work with, easy to seal, and very effective.which works out at $2,500 - $3,000 AUD for full coverage.
Why? What lead you to that decision? Why not just decouple the walls in the normal, low-cost manner? The more I follow your thread, the more I'm convinced that someone with a greedy eye on your wallet is trying desperately to convince you to spend far, far more than you need to. You keep on coming up with exotic, high priced products that are designed for situations which you do not have! It's no skin off my nose if you really do want to spend ten times more than you need to. I really don't care. But I do care when I see somebody being scammed out of ignorance. I don't use "ignorance" in the derogatory sense there: I'm just using it in the sense that you don't yet know about this stuff (but clearly you are learning fast!), and someone seems to be taking advantage of your lack of knowledge to get you to buy expensive stuff that you simply do not need! You can do what you need to do for far, far less. Ignore the people with the vested interests, ignore the fancy websites with the snake-oil sales hype, and just look a the basic laws of physics that govern hoe sound waves work. It is very simple: what stops sound is mass. Period. The more mass you have, the better you stop it. If you combine two leaves of mass with an air cavity in between, then you can also use the very powerful forces of resonance to your benefit, gaining much higher isolation for the same amount of mass. That's it. Period. There are no magical materials that defy the laws of physics. There are no incantations you can mumble as you light candles and ring bells, that will get your materials to work better.... The laws of physics are fixed an immutable. The equations are known. And so is the the equation for unscrupulous people to get rich quick: convince some poor bloke who doesn't know any better, that he needs to pay you a fortune to produce the results he wants....(5) I have decided I will also de-couple the walls with either the Green Glue Whisper Clips Deluxe or the Studco Resilimount M237R:
:thu: That's the smartest item on your list! Very smart move. 16mm drywall is about the best stuff you can get for good isolation. One or two layers of that on each leaf, with a decent sized air gap filled with suitable insulation, will get you good isolation.(6) I have decided to cancel to MDF Board and just go with plain Dry Wall instead.
Fair enough: That's a good reason! Not an acoustic reason, but still a very valid reason. Don't build anything that you don't feel comfortable with.I still plan to go for a flat ceiling because I am un-comfortable with the subject and would prefer not to go through with it.
That's what we are here for! :) - Stuart -Thanks for your time and help, appreciate it.
Change the dimensions of the room, such that there is a better relationship between them. If you look at and Andy Mel's calculator ( http://amroc.andymel.eu/ ) you'll see a graph over on the right, showing the "Bolt area". Adjust your room dimensions until your ratio is within the Bolt area, or close to it, and you will be fine. Bolt is the name of a scientist who did research on acoustics, and came up with that graph. Other guys, such as Louden, Sepmeyer, and Boner, among others, did similar work. There's a whole bunch of good room ratios that they discovered, and most of them lie within the Bolt area. There's also a much larger number of bad ratios, and all of them lie outside the Bolt area.So what exactly would of been a good solution to get more even modes in the room ?
You can still adjust your ceiling height... :) Besides, the dimensions of the slab do not define the room ratio! The slab sets the dimensions of your outer-leaf, but it is your inner-leaf that defines the ratio. So when you design your inner-leaf wall and ceiling framing, you can set the dimensions to something decent. The biggest key is to avoid dimensions that are direct multiples of each other, or within 5% of being direct multiples. So if the length of your room is 10m (for example), then don't make it 5m wide and 2.5m high... Also use Bob Golds calculator : http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm That does the same thing as the other one, but provides other information that is very useful.The 4.5m x 6m cement slab is already built, so I just have to make do with what I got now.
The concept is also called "room inside a room": Basically, you frame up the outside wall for the building with normal 2x4 framing, put some type of high-density sheathing on the outside (eg, OSB plus siding) but nothing on the inside of the studs. Just insulation, but no drywall. You leave the interior of that wall unfinished. Then you build another frame inside (four walls and ceiling), just a small distance away from the outer one, making sure that it does not touch the outer one at any point (not even a single nail) and put drywall on only ones side of that frame as well. Done! That's it. Not complicated. Technically, that is often called "fully decoupled two-leaf MSM construction". It is the simplest, lowest-cost method of getting good isolation. It uses the minimum of materials, and takes up the least space. It works because it is a tuned system. It is designed to resonate at a certain frequency, and at that frequency it does not isolate at all, but at all higher frequencies, it isolates really well. So if you tune it to resonate at a frequency that is low enough, then it will isolate the complete spectrum. You tune it by adjsuting the amount of mass on each of the two leaves, and the depth of the space between them. Very, simple.What exactly does de-coupling the entire inner leaf frame involve ? Materials and installation ? Im not familiar with this concept.
Then you will need to tune your wall very low, to isolate that. The general rule of thumb is that you tune it one octave lower than the lowest note you need to isolate. If you go down to 30 Hz, then you'd need to tune your wall to 15 Hz, or lower. That requires a lot of mass on each leaf, and a large air gap. The lower you go, the more mass you need, increasing exponentially. That's why very low frequencies are hard to isolate. You need very high density on at least one of your leaves. If that were my studio, I would be considering brick or concrete block for the outer leaf, instead of timber framing and siding. Brick and concrete are very high density, very good for isolation. You can tune a lot lower with massively heavy walls than you can with timber-framed walls. Two layers of 16mm drywall will get you a density of around 24 kg/m2. A 10cm brick wall will get you more like 230 kg/m2, and a 20cm concrete block wall takes that to around 500 kg/m2. That's hugely massive, and allows for good isolation down to low frequencies. A block wall is more expensive than a timber framed wall, of course, but still cheaper than MLV! :) Sorry I can't help you more tonight: I need to do some work on projects for paying customers right now, and I also need to get some sleep, but I'll try to check in again tomorrow or over the weekend, to see if you need more help. In the meantime, look around the forum at the completed and in-progress builds that are going on right now, to get an idea of how to do this "room-in-a-room" thing.s It's actually not complicated, and gets you the most "bang for the buck", as the yanks say. Highest isolation, lowest cost, best use of materials, simple to build, very effective. There are other options, but they are all more expensive, or more complicated, or take up more space.... or all three! - Stuart -It wouldn't be un-common for my kick and bass to go below 30Hz, most of my stuff is in the C0 - C1 octave range.
Hi Stuart,
Thanks for your time and information, I understand I am receiving valuable information for free that would usually cost money, I appreciate it.
You sound very knowledgeable about studio construction, Im guessing you have some experience and have been doing this for some time ?
Ok so, I forgot to consider that the walls will reduce my room dimensions a little bit. Maybe we can resize my room dimensions to something a little more refined for my situation ?
I have checked out the http://amroc.andymel.eu/ and http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm but I am finding it difficult to interpret the information.
So, I guess my question now becomes:
(Q1) Using the fully Decoupled Two-Leaf MSM construction method, what dimensions would you aim to hit from the current dimensions of 6m L x 4.5 W x 2.5m H ?
I understand that my bass heavy music is a big issue and most likely can not be controlled properly lol. Just want a reasonable sized air cavity without being too ridiculous etc
If the Decoupled Two-Leaf MSM wall exceeds a width of 500mm it will start to reduce my width too much ? I don't want to ge below 4m wide unless its acoustically beneficial.
Im unsure how wide standard wood frame beams are ? but I think theres a decent amount of room for a air cavity to play with ? I just need to know whats a good new dimension size ?
(Q2) Im guessing this now also changes speaker placement and listening position, I would appreciate if you could please calculate that again for me. I will definitely make a donation for your help.
Increasing the ceiling height could be a viable option, the frame construction starts in 2 weeks, so I will start to communicate to the builder that there might be some slight changes to the plan.
I was quoted by the builder for $3,000 maximum for the 4kg / m2 MLV full coverage, I will have to double check he has not made a mistake as this is not matching up anywhere near your prices.
The soundproofing side of things was not a main priority, buts it is proving to be a interesting adventure learning about all these things.
Thanks
OK, one more quick answer for tonight...
Designing studios is what I do for a living. Just like John Sayers himself, except probably not at the same level as he does it (yet! :) ) He's Yoda, I'm just Luke. I guess my background has something to do with the reason why John made me the forum administrator... ( I'm pretty sure it wasn't because of my hair style! :) ) Yes, I've been doing this for a while. More than just a couple of success stories. Here's one that I'm rather proud of: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20471You sound very knowledgeable about studio construction, Im guessing you have some experience and have been doing this for some time ?
Yup, you certainly can!Ok so, I forgot to consider that the walls will reduce my room dimensions a little bit. Maybe we can resize my room dimensions to something a little more refined for my situation ?
Stick at it. It takes a while before things start to click into place. The number one goal you are looking for is to get your lowest dozen or so modes spread around evenly, not bunched up together. No two modes right nest to each other, or on top of each other. You also want to make sure that your room meets the three BBC criteria listed on Bob Golds calculator. If you get a "fail" there, you should try to figure out how to fix that. Also look at the Bonello chart: it tells you how your modes are distributed in a simple graphical format. It should rise smoothly and evenly to the right, not going back down again. No kinks. Both of those also tell you something about the treatment you will need inside, in order to achieve good acoustic response. It's not very detailed, and sort of cryptic, as it is expressed in in "sabins", which are units of perfect acoustic absorption, but it does give you some idea what you will need. The goal is to get your decay times for all frequencies to be constant and consistent across the spectrum, and within the range that you need based on the interior volume of the room. Probably around 230 ms for your room, I would guess.I have checked out the http://amroc.andymel.eu/ and http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm but I am finding it difficult to interpret the information.
That's the 64k $ question, isn't it! :) This is why I said that the number one principle most basic starting point for designing any studio is the isolation. If you can tell me the level of isolation that you need, in decibels, and the lowest frequency that you need to isolate, then I can calculate the lowest possible mass and thickness of your walls. Based on that, I can figure out a good room ratio that fits on your slab within those dimensions, and within a reasonable roof height. Based on that, I can suggest possible layouts for the room, showing the positions of doors, windows, HVAC systems, speakers, mix position, gear, etc. I can suggest the best design philosophy for that room, and predict roughly what the acoustic response will be. By comparing the predicted response against the desired response, I can see roughly what treatment will be needed, and where in the room it will need to go. Based on that and on the make and model of your speakers, and the size of your desk/console, and the other stuff that you want to have in there, I can design the treatment devices. Based on that... etc. But it all starts with that number: how much isolation do you need? It seems like a dumb, unrelated, unimportant thing to start with, but it's the key. Everything else follows on from there, in a stream. The isolation determines the room dimensions, which determines everything else. Studio design is a process, a sequence of steps that need to be done in order. For example, you can't know what type of HVAC system you will need until you know the volume of the room, and the amount of heat and humidity that will be generated inside, plus the thermal isolation level, ... all of which is determined, indirectly, from your isolation need. So that's what you should be focused in first: figure out the number of decibels of isolation that your studio will need. Give me that number, and we can move forward with all the rest. Without that number, it's all guesswork, and the outcome will be random.(Q) Using the fully decoupled two-leaf MSM construction method, what dimensions would you aim to hit from the current dimensions of 6m L x 4.5 W x 2.5m H ?
:shock: :ahh: No, no, no, no no! Please don't. If there's one piece of advice I could give you right now that will save your studio from guaranteed disaster, it is this: STOP! Put the brakes on, drop the anchor, turn off the power, and send everybody home. You will NOT want to hear this, but it's the best advice I can give you, at any cost, paid or unpaid: Do not build anything yet. You are nowhere near ready. If you start now, you will only ever have a mediocre studio, at best. If you wait a while, plan it carefully, design it properly, work through the complete process, then it can be great. You have more than enough space for a great control room. ITU specs call for a minimum of 20m2 floor area for a top notch critical listening room, and you have close to 30. Even after allowing for the space for the MSM system, you still have a very decent sized space there. It's big enough to be excellent, if you want it to be. I've designed quite a few in that range, and you'll find many more on the forum, designed and built by members, or designed by John. What you have is the prefect basis for a great studio: You have a 6x4.5 slab on grade, with nothing more in place. That's PERFECT! Many forum members would gladly cut off certain important parts of their anatomy to have what you have! Most forum members get to suffer and scream as they try to shoe-horn their studios into tiny, impossible spaces, but what you have is an oasis, a treasure! Don't waste it. It's the best possible scenario right now... as long as yo don't wreck it by building before you are ready. Yes, it will take some time to design properly: normally it takes me about 2 to 3 months to design a ground-up studio build from scratch, but you need learning time too, to get up to speed on acoustics and construction, so allow six months. I'm sure there's a million reasons you can think of why you cannot possibly stop now, but none of them are valid. Really. This situation happens every few months on the forum. Someone like you comes along, with misplaced concepts, bad design (or no design at all) but well advanced in their build, and I always give out the same advice: STOP! Don't do it. Mostly, they take heed, stop, and spend the time to do it right. And the end up with wonderful studios. Sometimes they don't stop, and carry on anyway... and we never hear from them again.... The reason why they don't report back is clear; the project failed. It might be finished, but it doesn't work: If it did, you can bet they'd be back telling me how wrong I was, and how right they were! But it doesn't happen like that. They shut up and fade into silence, suffering in their lousy studios that don't work. In our brief back-and-forth on your thread the last couple of days, I can see that your eyes have suddenly opened wide, and you've started to grasp just how complex studio design is, and all the ways you were about to go terribly wrong without even realizing it. That's just a few hours of your time. Imagine how much more you still will find out in a few more days. Already you have an inkling of just how big this is, after just half a dozen posts each way on the forum. Studio design is complex. There's a LOT that goes into it. Acoustics is a huge field, and sound waves do not behave the way people think they should. You are just getting a hint of this. Hopefully, a big enough hint that you'll realize what a huge mistake it would be to carry on right now, without first designing your place properly, following the complete process. From experience, I can tell you that it is totally impossible to get your design ready in two weeks. Yes, a designer could come up with some concepts, and maybe even some partly detailed plans, but 2 weeks is simply not enough time to go through it all carefully, and ensure that it is done right. For example, you have made no mention of HVAC yet, but HVAC is a huge part of studio design. It's not a luxury; it's an essential part of the studio, just as much as the speakers or the console or the DAW. More so, even! You wont pass out and die from lack of speakers, but you sure will from lack of air! I often spend as much time on designing the HVAC system for a studio, as I do on all the rest! It's complicated. And it takes up a lot of space. A LOT! You need to allow a large amount of space for the silencer boxes, ducts, registers, intake, exhaust registers, AHU or evaporator, etc. And you need to make sure that you have enough air flow volume to keep you alive (and meet code), but at a slow enough speed that you can't hear it. You need to have enough cooling capacity to deal with the sensible heat load and also the latent heat load, for typical situations but also for the "worst case" day, such as half a dozen of your mates coming over to listen to your amazing new song, but on the hottest day in living memory with the highest humidity since Noah left the ark... etc. There's so much you need to consider, that you aren't even aware of yet! So that's my very best advice, and the it's the very best you could ever get, at any prices: Just stop. Pull the plug for now, plan it through properly, design it well, then call up the contractor and carry on again, once al the pieces of the puzzle are in place.Increasing the ceiling height could be a viable option, the frame construction starts in 2 weeks
He's only considering one single layer: that's equivalent to a single sheet of drywall, 5mm thick. That's all. You would need four layers to make a decent difference. Is he the one pushing you to buy this exotic stuff that you don't need? Does he have proven experience in designing studios? Consider this; I have a customer somewhere around the border between NSW and Queensland, who came to me asking for a design for his place. He teaches drums. So he has not one but TWO full drums kits going full bore when he's teaching. He wanted to silence that. I designed his place using plain old ordinary building materials. Not a scrap of MLV in there at all. No foil faced insulation, or rock coat, or rigid foam. No RSIC clips, no hat channel, no resilient channel. And tit works great! He loves it! He finished it last year, and he could not be happier. His wife and small child can sleep upstairs, his neighbor cant' hear a thing, his mates love being able to jam at any tiome of the day or night, and everyone is happy. But no exotic stuff went into that. Just ordinary studs, drywall, OSB, and insulation. I'd be happy to put you in touch with him, so you can ask him how it worked out, and what materials he used, and if I do know what I'm talking about.... :) I'd be happy to put you in touch with other people who have built places. They will all tell you the same thing: you do NOT need fancy, exotic, expensive materials to build a good studio. What you need is a good design, and ordinary materials, used properly.I was quoted by the builder for $3,000 maximum for the 4kg / m2 MLV full coverage,
The "soundproofing side of things" is the key to the entire process. Not the angle of your ceiling! :) Anyway, my advice right now is the same: STOP. - Stuart -The soundproofing side of things was not a main priority, buts it is proving to be a interesting adventure learning about all these things.
Hi Stuart,
Thanks for the information , appreciate it.
I understand all of your points, the studio construction has been a bit rushed and forced upon me by my parents, they want me out hahah. So im just trying to work with what ive got.
The builder is coming to visit and talk on the weekend and during the week, hopefully I can refine some plans to him and cancel some materials or whatever, I may also have to cut my losses with any un-necessary materials already ordered if any and spend more money on whats needed.
Well its good to know I have a reasonable size slab that can achieve a nice studio.
To keep things as simple as possible in regards to isolation, lets just say I do not need much isolation. Just something efficient but not over the top, and the room doesn't have to be tuned for 30Hz or whatever, the Decoupled Two-Leaf MSM construction method is sounding good to me, but let me know otherwise.
Based on that information and my room dimensions could you please provide some further insight on a desired Decoupled Two-Leaf MSM construction ? What dimensions should I be aiming to hit with completed walls and ceiling ?
Thanks for your help
P.S. I don't know if I have the option to completely stop the progress of the construction but I will try. Thats why im kind of in need of urgent information lol.
My current speakers are crappy KRK Rokits G2 (Yes I know the room is only as good as the speakers lol, but I plan to eventually upgrade to some Adam AX's or Genelecs in the future, Im too addicted to spending money on eurorack modular synths)
Just trying to keep things simple as possible, lets just say the room dimensions and speaker / listener positioning and a possible angled ceiling are much higher priority than sound proofing / isolation.
I am fairly certain the wall insulation has been ordered and will be the Pink Soundbreak Insulation Batts:
https://www.pricewiseinsulation.com.au/ ... ion-batts/
Im not sure what R-value exactly, I will find out.
So I might be stuck with this kind of insulation and might be stuck with a layer of your beloved 4kg / m2 MLV.
Other than that, I just need some further insight on a ideal room dimension with completed walls and ceiling using the Decoupled Two-Leaf MSM construction method, or other method if recommended.
Hope I have provided enough information.
Thanks
To be honest, I could probably get away with just a single wall, but im not exactly sure how one would fill a "potential" extended cavity properly in a single layered wall.
Main point being basically I would rather fail the sound proofing / isolation side of things miserably, but try and get some kind of desirable setup with speaker placement, listener position, room treatment and a possible angled ceiling.
I tried running a bunch of numbers through the calculators, I seem to be able to read this calculator easier than the other: http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm
However, every dimension seems to have some kind of over lapping.
Im not exactly sure whats going on with the calculator without comparing every different result in microsoft excel, which will take some time, I will keep trying.
Im just mainly seeking a desirable dimension with the completed walls and ceiling.
Thanks
ok so after a little thinking, I figure that a extended single wall will require more wood and insulation the same as doing the Decoupled Two-Leaf MSM construction method, so I will just stick with the de-coupled two leaf method, unless told otherwise.
Thanks
Yup! :) I did say it was the lowest cost, least use of materials, simplest method of getting good isolation... :)...will require more wood and insulation the same as doing the Decoupled Two-Leaf MSM construction method,
Please post those plans, as they stand right now. I assume that they have already been approved by your local authorities? Post everything you have: photos of the slab, drawings, Bill of Materials, structural reports, etc.hopefully I can refine some plans to him and cancel some materials or whatever,
If you are stuck with materials that you don't need, try to sell them on e-bay, or in your local newspaper.I may also have to cut my losses with any un-necessary materials already ordered if any and spend more money on whats needed.
That's the problem! That's not a number that I can plug into the equations. It's a subjective evaluation, not an objective number. What you consider "not much", I might call "a lot", and your neighbor might call "zero"! You do need to get out your sound level meter (beg, borrow, or buy one very fast), and do some tests. Find out how quiet you need to be, and how loud you are. Check your local bylaws and regulations for the "noise ordinance" section, to find out what your legal limit is. If you exceed that regularly, you'll end up with the cops knocking on your door, handing you a bit of paper that you don't want to get...lets just say I do not need much isolation. Just something efficient but not over the top
It's the wall that has to be tuned, not the room... :) Room tuning is something else entirely.... But the wall DOES need to be tuned to SOMETHING! Whatever the lowest note is of your music, measure how loud that note is when you are normally playing it under typical circumstance, in decibels. Set the meter to C-weighting, slow response, play the note at what you think is the typical level, and measure that, Also measure the frequency. Give me those two numbers, plus the legal limit from your noise regulation, plus the distances from your slab to your neighbors and property lines, and I can come up with something. But if you don't give me data to work with, I can't help you.and the room doesn't have to be tuned for 30Hz or whatever,
See above....Based on that information and my room dimensions could you please provide some further insight on a desired Decoupled Two-Leaf MSM construction ? What dimensions should I be aiming to hit with completed walls and ceiling ?
Put it on hold at least! Most building materials can be stored for a reasonable time, except for things like cement. Some things must be stored under cover, or in certain ways, but most can be stored.P.S. I don't know if I have the option to completely stop the progress of the construction but I will try. Thats why im kind of in need of urgent information lol.
Which models are you looking at, in both ranges? There's some large differences!My current speakers are crappy KRK Rokits G2 (Yes I know the room is only as good as the speakers lol, but I plan to eventually upgrade to some Adam AX's or Genelecs in the future
Hypothetical Peter Frampton wanna-be buddy: "Let's say just the guitar cable and the stage lighting and the grill cloth on the speaker cabinet are much higher priority than the amp, the effects pedal, and the actual guitar..." :)Just trying to keep things simple as possible, lets just say the room dimensions and speaker / listener positioning and a possible angled ceiling are much higher priority than sound proofing / isolation.
Probably fine, but I'd need to know exactly which one.I am fairly certain the wall insulation has been ordered and will be the Pink Soundbreak Insulation Batts:
R-value has no relevance to acoustics. It's only important for thermal evaluation. What you need to know for acoustics, is the density: How much does one cubic meter of that stuff weigh? Call the manufacturer and ask.Im not sure what R-value exactly,
Well, we can certainly use that stuff, and it will work, to a certain extent... it's just sad realizing that the cost is so high, and you wasted so much money on it.and might be stuck with a layer of your beloved 4kg / m2 MLV.
See above.... :)I just need some further insight on a ideal room dimension with completed walls and ceiling using the Decoupled Two-Leaf MSM construction method,
Other methods will cost more, take up more space, be less effective, or harder to build.or other method if recommended.
Forget the angled ceiling: It will complicate the build, and the planning. Worst case, you can get a similar effect by hanging an angled, had-backed cloud between the mix position and the speakers.but try and get some kind of desirable setup with speaker placement, listener position, room treatment and a possible angled ceiling.
Yep. There's no such thing as a perfect ratio. I'm glad you discovered that for yourself! :) There are just bad ones, and better ones. It's not easy to fiddle with the dimensions to get there, but you can compare the ratio you have to the closest ratios, and see if you can approach one of them better. If you are inside the Bolt area, and you are not failing any of the three BBC tests, then you are probably good. - Stuart -However, every dimension seems to have some kind of over lapping.
Hi Stuart,
Thanks very much for the information.
So I have contacted the builder and he said that only the wood frame has been ordered so far. Im not exactly sure if the height beams have been pre-cut to 2.5m etc. I will find this information and all other information about materials by next week.
So if worse comes to worse I might be stuck with that height for a ceiling that can only be reduced in size, so having the option to heighten the ceiling may not be a viable option anymore, but again I will confirm all of the materials etc by next week.
Forget the angled ceiling and just go with one of those angled hanging panels, that sounds like a plan. So flat ceiling it is.
As far as I know, the cement slab is a bit thinner than a typical cement slab that would have plumbing incorporated etc. I live on a large property of about 6 acres, so the neighbours are not the issue, cops are not a issue, its just I don't want people sleeping to be bothered by a bassy doof doof kick "thud" or "boom" throughout the night while sleeping in the main house.
The main house is about 15m - 20m away from the studio location.
I have a SPL reader, im typically monitoring about 60db but wouldn't mind trying 80db monitoring once in new studio.
I don't really know how to answer all of your questions with the SPL and monitoring, im just currently in a shitty bedroom, I mean I can turn on the spl and get a reading but of what exactly ?
I will start to take some pictures etc. Judging by eye its about 10 - 12cm thick slab.
Thanks
I actually don't have any of my DAW programs installed due to a lengthy run of computer issues. So I don't have access to my project files to measure bass.
All I know is that a very common producing frequency for me is C1, D1 and G1, sometimes E1 sometimes B1
so between 32Hz to - 52Hz at around 60db ? as a rough guess lol. Sorry I don't know if ill be able to provide accurate information to you for this.
Picture of cement slab
Measured 10cm thick