Any real studio examples of "The Corner Control Room" ?

Hi all, I'm sorry if this is the wrong board to ask this or if I'm not following the posting guidelines. I did read through them but I'm not asking for specific advice about a studio build yet. Although I will be and when I do I'll make sure to post all the required info! :wink: Just a quick question..does anyone know of any studios that have been built around "The Corner Control Room" design that's on John Sayers' variplans list? I've tried to find some real life examples but haven't come up with much. I did see the 112f Studio is similar to this. Are there any others? In my very early studio planning I'm thinking this might be the best design for the space I have but would love to see some real photos of the end result. Thanks! edit: Is Boolean search not enabled on this forum? I've been trying to search "corner control" but can't filter results to that exact phrase. If someone could let me know how to do that it'd be much appreciated!

Hi there "colliderman", and Welcome! :) One of my customers in California is currently in the process of building a facility that I designed for him, that includes a small corner control room. It is not yet completed, but will be shortly. Here's a couple of photos, showing how it is progressing: Framing up: Drywall on: Original design concept, from left rear of CR: Original design concept, CR overhead view:

In my very early studio planning I'm thinking this might be the best design for the space I have

Is there a specific reason why you are considering this design for your place? It's not that easy to do, both from the design point of view, and also from the construction point of view, and getting the acoustics right is a bit of a challenge too. I don't need to do corner control rooms very often: There's usually some other way things can be laid out that would be easier, unless there's a major overriding reason to go for a corner design. That's probably why you don't see too many of them! - Stuart -

Thanks Stuart, very happy to be here! Thanks for posting those pics. That looks very similar to what I'm thinking for my space. I'm in the very early planning (dreaming) stage at this point, but I've done a few different sketchup designs of my space and the corner design just seems to feel and look the best to me. I won't go into too much detail here as I want to be mindful of the guidelines for posting questions about a build. I'm also still trying to determine whether my budget allows for a build like this. I may be forced to go a simpler route just based on that. My main concern though is that I wouldn't want my rooms to be too small to sound good, particularly the "live room". This will be mostly for recording rock music, so drumkits and loud amps, and also for my band to rehearse in. I'm a little hesitant to post this because I'm still working on it, but here's a couple images of where I'm at in the design now along with dimensions. Do you think those room sizes will be ok or are they too small? If you have any thoughts or comments I'd really appreciate them. Thanks!

You seem to be on a good track in general, and the facility has a good amount of space. I'm assuming that you tried several other layouts before settling on this one? Nice SketchUp skills, by the way! - Stuart -

That's beautiful, John! Stunning, in fact. - Stuart -

Yes, wow! Thanks for posting that John. What a space!

You seem to be on a good track in general, and the facility has a good amount of space. I'm assuming that you tried several other layouts before settling on this one?

I did try a couple others but I'm definitely struggling with how they should be laid out. I originally thought I would just go for a two room design; control room and live room. The booth wasn't really needed but the nature of the corner control room kind of automatically adds it, and I could definitely see it being useful. With a simpler two room design, I feel the best option would be to basically split the space in half, with the live room on the side closest to the furnace room (because it has the existing double doors on the side of the building, which makes sense for load in) and the control room on the side with the front exterior door. Here's what that looks like: *note: The control room is not isolated from the exterior structure in this design as I'm still unsure if I really need the isolation for it, but that's a whole different topic! The thing I don't like about this is the hallway I'm forced to create near the front door. It just feels a bit strange to me and wouldn't be very usable space. I do like that the live room is a bit bigger now though. But if the other live room in the corner control room design would be of sufficient size to sound good (or at least have potential) I think I'd be happier with that design. What are your thoughts on the two room design? Do you think the live room in the original Corner Control room design is large enough to sound good, and would comfortably accommodate a four piece band? Could you elaborate a bit on the construction challenges you mentioned earlier with the Corner Control room design? I've also attached another pic of the empty space as it is now, with dimensions. Also forgot to mention, the finished ceiling height will be 10 feet. Thank you!

The control room is not isolated from the exterior structure

... and neither is the live room! :)

in this design as I'm still unsure if I really need the isolation for it,

Yes, you do.

Do you think the live room in the original Corner Control room design is large enough to sound good, and would comfortably accommodate a four piece band?

It would be tight. I would flatten out the CR a bit, to give you more room in the LR.

Could you elaborate a bit on the construction challenges you mentioned earlier with the Corner Control room design?

Angles. Unusual ones. It's hard enough to get framing and drywall consistent and well sealed in a rectangular room, and it's hard enough to get a rectangular room truly symmetrical, but when you have to do that while cutting framing at 27.3° or 35.9° or whatever it turns out to be, it gets even harder still. laying out a rectangle is relatively easy by measuring across the diagonals and checking for exactly equal numbers when you snap the layout on the floor, but even then the final farming won't be exact.... that's quite a bit harder to do when the room has 5, 6, or 8 sides, and they all have to be lined up right... It's not impossible by any means, as the above examples show, but it does make it harder, and slow you down. If you want a fast easy build, then rectangular is a good option. If you don't mind spending more time on higher precision to get a better room, then that's also fine. - Stuart -

So I've decided not to go with the corner design. I think it's just too ambitious for my budget and my needs. I also feel like the live room is too small. Also, as Stuart said, the construction will be quite complicated. The new plan is a two room build, similar to what I posted earlier with a few changes. I'm trying to nail down the room layout as much as possible at this point, so before I start asking too many specific construction questions, I'd just like to get an opinion of the plan as it stands. I think I covered this earlier in the thread, but just in case I didn't: Main Usage: Rehearsal space for my band, and a writing, mixing, and recording space for myself (and band). I also do some recording from time to time of friends' bands as well. I don't have any aspirations of this being a full blown commercial facility, but I'd like to be able to record friends bands occasionally. Like the rest of us here, recording is my passion. :) How loud am I?: Very loud! :jammin: My band plays aggressive music and is probably in the 110-120dB range when jamming. I'm sorry I don't have exact measurements for that yet. I know I will need them but for now, let's just say we are VERY loud. Drums, bass, guitars. Building details: Roughly 28' x 28' stand alone building adjacent to my house. It sits on a concrete slab and is framed with 2x6's all around with cedar siding on the exterior. The existing interior walls are insulated with pink fluffy fiberglass, and hung with plywood. It has radiant heat in the slab which is heated by an oil fired boiler. There is an existing 2 piece powder room (toilet and sink). It sits on a large lot (2.2 acres) but the closest neighbor on the one side (side with drum kit in Sketchup image) is about 50 ft away. The other three sides are 150ft+ away from neighbors. There are existing windows on the live room side and the control room side that I'd like to keep if possible for natural light. Here are some exterior pics of the building: and interior: Here's what I'm thinking: Budget: 10k-15k . This will be a DIY build. I know the budget is small.. My questions are: 1. How does the layout look overall? (ie. Am I making the best use of space with what I have to work with and what I intend to do? ) 2. Do I absolutely need to isolate the Control Room? The decision not to isolate the control room was made for the following reasons: a) I'm trying to save space and money. b) I'd like to be able to open those windows and I feel like a room within a room would make that not easily doable..maybe I'm wrong? c) I don't feel I need the isolation from or to the outside world in the control room. The live room is where all the loud stuff will happen, and my area is generally quiet enough that outside noises arent' too big of a deal. I can handle the occasional lawn mower disrupting my mixing now and then. 4. If I don't isolate the Control Room as in this design, will I still get an acceptable amount of isolation in the Control Room when tracking say, a drumkit or loud amp? The live room is fully isolated and the control room wall adjacent to the live room will be double 5/8" drywall, green glue in between layers. Is isolation of the other CR walls crucial for transmission loss in CR when tracking or will the benefits be minimal? 4. Can I build the new live room ceiling underneath the existing drywall ceiling as is? The interior ceiling is drywalled throughout at 10' 8". For the live room, my plan was to construct the new ceiling underneath it at 10', and leave the existing ceiling as is. That would leave roughly 8" between new ceiling drywall and existing ceiling drywall. Is that ok or will that be compromising my isolation? (ie. 3 leaf system) 5. Can I use the plywood that is currently hung on the walls to add existing mass to the exterior structure in between the studs? Or should I do that with drywall? I'm thinking I would take the plywood down, cut it to fit in between the existing studs, remove insulation, put up plywood in between studs, put insulation back. Then I'd frame my interior live room walls with 2x4's, fill with Roxul safe n sound, and then put 2 layers of 5/8' drywall with green glue in between layers. Thank you in advance for any advice!!

So I've decided not to go with the corner design.

Smart move! :thu:

The new plan is a two room build, similar to what I posted earlier with a few changes. I'm trying to nail down the room layout as much as possible at this point, so before I start asking too many specific construction questions, I'd just like to get an opinion of the plan as it stands.

The basic idea is fine, but you are losing too much space on the side walls of the CR with the soffit "wings" that extend too far back. They don't need to be that big. Also, your CR is not isolated at all!

let's just say we are VERY loud. Drums, bass, guitars.

So you 'll need considerable isolation, then! But we still need to put a number to that...

It sits on a concrete slab and is framed with 2x6's

Good start! Slab on grade is excellent, and 2x6 outer-leaf gives you good options.

and hung with plywood.

If you want good isolation, that will have to come off...

Budget: 10k-15k . This will be a DIY build. I know the budget is small ....

ummmm... Yup! That's a bit of an understatement... I'd suggest rethinking that...

1. How does the layout look overall?

It looks reasonable. There might be ways of improving it, but it's not too bad. Except that the CR is not isolated! That needs to be fixed.

2. Do I absolutely need to isolate the Control Room?

If that were my place, I most definitely would.

b) I'd like to be able to open those windows

:shock: Why? A control room is also a CONTROLLED room. It is a carefully crafted acoustically neutral space... that would be totally trashed by opening a window. I'm not sure why you would want to do that!

4. If I don't isolate the Control Room as in this design, will I still get an acceptable amount of isolation in the Control Room when tracking say, a drumkit or loud amp?

Nope. It's that simple. Since the control room is part of the outer leaf, it is not isolated.

4. Can I build the new live room ceiling underneath the existing drywall ceiling as is? The interior ceiling is drywalled throughout at 10' 8". For the live room, my plan was to construct the new ceiling underneath it at 10', and leave the existing ceiling as is. That would leave roughly 8" between new ceiling drywall and existing ceiling drywall. Is that ok or will that be compromising my isolation? (ie. 3 leaf system)

You could do that. Yes, it would be a 3-leaf system, but you can compensate for that.

5. Can I use the plywood that is currently hung on the walls to add existing mass to the exterior structure in between the studs?

Depending on how thick it is, possibly yes. If it is something like 3/4" or 5/8", then you could do that. If it is more like 1/4", then not a chance. Plywood it not very heavy as it is, so thin stuff is not a lot of use for adding mass.

I'm thinking I would take the plywood down, cut it to fit in between the existing studs, remove insulation, put up plywood in between studs, put insulation back.

Correct! Assuming that the plywood is at least 5/8, preferably 3/4. If not, the use 5/8 drywall instead.

Then I'd frame my interior live room walls with 2x4's, fill with Roxul safe n sound, and then put 2 layers of 5/8' drywall with green glue in between layers.

:thu: Yup! - Stuart -

colliderman wrote:

Building details: ...It has radiant heat in the slab which is heated by an oil fired boiler.

colliderman, You have radiant heat in the floor. I have radiant heat in the floor on my garage project. Do you know where the piping system si placed in your floor? Were you there when it was laid out and poured? In my instance, I have no idea were the pipes are in my floor. That is a major challenge for me. I want to use it. A concrete contractor friend told me to be careful is I was shooting the floor, sometimes the pipes rise during the pour, I could puncture a pipe and ruin the whole system. Stuart has already expressed his dislike of platforms filled with sand as that was my proposed solution. I'm just worried about breaking a system that I cannot fix. I was wondering if you are facing this problem too? Do you have a workaround? W

ssl4000g wrote:

colliderman, You have radiant heat in the floor. I have radiant heat in the floor on my garage project. Do you know where the piping system si placed in your floor? Were you there when it was laid out and poured? In my instance, I have no idea were the pipes are in my floor. That is a major challenge for me. I want to use it. A concrete contractor friend told me to be careful is I was shooting the floor, sometimes the pipes rise during the pour, I could puncture a pipe and ruin the whole system. Stuart has already expressed his dislike of platforms filled with sand as that was my proposed solution. I'm just worried about breaking a system that I cannot fix. I was wondering if you are facing this problem too? Do you have a workaround? W

Hi Wayne, I don't know where the piping is in my floor. But I've talked to a few people who've all said that using a construction adhesive like Liquid Nails to secure the bottom plate to the concrete will be fine, so that's my plan right now. I also know someone who has access to a pretty high quality thermal camera so I might see if I can get that and map out the lines. I'm not sure how well that would work and how accurately it could pick up the tubing but it'd be cool to check out!

I've talked to a few people who've all said that using a construction adhesive like Liquid Nails to secure the bottom plate to the concrete will be fine,

Were any of those people the actual building inspector, who will inspect your framing before you can put any drywall on it, and either allow you to go ahead, or tell you to tear it down and do it again? Was any of those people a certified structural engineer, who would willingly put that advice in writing and sign it off? Did you check your local building code to make sure that such "anchoring" is permitted / approved? I would be rather careful, if I were you, about such a plan... Rather than trusting "what somebody told me", I would check the actual, real-world legal requirements, as well as the opinion of the inspector who will be visiting your place, to inspect what you did... And to be honest, living where I do, you would never find me inside a room if I knew that the only thing that was holding the walls onto the floor, was glue... - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

I've talked to a few people who've all said that using a construction adhesive like Liquid Nails to secure the bottom plate to the concrete will be fine,

Were any of those people the actual building inspector, who will inspect your framing before you can put any drywall on it, and either allow you to go ahead, or tell you to tear it down and do it again? Was any of those people a certified structural engineer, who would willingly put that advice in writing and sign it off? Did you check your local building code to make sure that such "anchoring" is permitted / approved? I would be rather careful, if I were you, about such a plan... Rather than trusting "what somebody told me", I would check the actual, real-world legal requirements, as well as the opinion of the inspector who will be visiting your place, to inspect what you did... And to be honest, living where I do, you would never find me inside a room if I knew that the only thing that was holding the walls onto the floor, was glue... - Stuart -

I've inquired to my local township about what is acceptable for anchoring framing. I did not get a specific answer saying this or that is acceptable, or it needs to be this or that even when I gave some specifics. I took that to mean that whatever I would submit, it would be the first thing they looked at for possible flagging. I also had someone tell me to glue a plate down. Needless to say, I've reconsidered the whole project because of the radiant heat and the possible thermal loss. If this was easy, everybody'd be doing it! W

Soundman2020 wrote:

Was any of those people a certified structural engineer, who would willingly put that advice in writing and sign it off? Did you check your local building code to make sure that such "anchoring" is permitted / approved?

No, none of those people were structural engineers. Two of the people who have told me this are experienced builders who have encountered this multiple times in real life, and have built structures this way. They are also the people who will be helping me build this. I was wrong about the Liquid Nails though..the adhesive they've suggested is PL adhesive. I will certainly check with local building code and find out what is acceptable though in order to get the structure approved. If this is not acceptable to them I will find another solution. :thu: Most likely, I'll get a thermal camera and find out where the lines are, and then do a mix of adhesive and fasteners.

ssl4000g wrote:

Needless to say, I've reconsidered the whole project because of the radiant heat and the possible thermal loss. If this was easy, everybody'd be doing it!

What do you mean "possible thermal loss"? Are you referring to your radiant heat being less effective because of building over the concrete? If so, that will not be the case. Don't let this deter you! There are solutions. See if you can rent a thermal camera for an afternoon. People do do it all the time. The radiant heat is not a big obstacle in my opinion. I'm very glad to have such efficient heating in my space. It's been awesome this winter so far, and I'm in Canada! Now figuring out all the details of this build and not screwing it up, that's a challenge! :D

ssl4000g wrote:

Needless to say, I've reconsidered the whole project because of the radiant heat and the possible thermal loss. If this was easy, everybody'd be doing it!

What do you mean "possible thermal loss"? Are you referring to your radiant heat being less effective because of building over the concrete? If so, that will not be the case. Don't let this deter you! There are solutions. See if you can rent a thermal camera for an afternoon. People do do it all the time. The radiant heat is not a big obstacle in my opinion. I'm very glad to have such efficient heating in my space. It's been awesome this winter so far, and I'm in Canada! Now figuring out all the details of this build and not screwing it up, that's a challenge! :D[/quote] In thinking about the thermal loss, anything i put on top of the existing floor will have to be heated before the floor would become heated enough to radiate into the space. Therefore, it would seem likely that there would be an increase in the amount of time the heater would need to run, which would lead to increase heating costs and maintenance costs. It would also seem likely that the space would heat less efficiently especially in extreme situations such as multiple days that are significantly below freezing. On the anchoring issue, after some further thought, while using fasteners and a glue solution, I would be concerned about the ability to de-anchoring a portion of the wall. This could be possible when; someone pushes a large amp cab into the room and it runs into the wall or, someone trips and fall into a wall... I know these sound a bit unlikely, but I've seen those things happen. I would point out that these walls carry the ceiling, so you have a load pressing down onto the walls. Should one of the walls become unanchored in a spot, the integrity of the box becomes compromised which could lead to collapse. So, the heat int he floor coupled with the need to preserve the effectiveness of said heat, plus the need to support the inner structures seems to me to require careful consideration to undertake the best, most secure way of anchoring the walls. I don't have that solution yet. However, not considering the problem fully opens one up to serious problems should a wall become compromised. Just food for thought colliderman. You have people in, you got to keep it safe. As we see so much in the studio biz, you do get what you pay for. I think that applies across the board to any aspect of studio business. W

Hi Stuart, I've been trying to figure out a way to isolate the control room as you suggested, but without losing too much floor space. I was reading this post on Soundproofing.com about adding staggered studs to an existing wall http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/sou ... stud-wall/. What do you think about this plan? - On three of the control room walls (all walls except the wall between the control room and live room) I would do staggered stud construction. I would build the left wall and front wall on top of the foundation footings so as to not lose any floor space. The footings are 8" wide and sit 10" proud above the concrete floor. The exterior walls sit on top of them, which are 2x6 framed walls. The footings are then insulated with 1.5" rigid insulation all the way around the inside perimeter. So on the inside of the exterior walls I have 2.5" of concrete footing that I could attach some furring strips to and then add staggered studs which my 2 layers of 5/8" drywall would attach to. My questions are: 1) I know the isolation won't be as good as fully decoupled wall assemblies but could this be a reasonable alternative? 2) Should I use resilient channel with the staggered studs? 3) If I seal and caulk the drywall on the bottom of the footing, is the 1.5" of insulation ok to exist uncovered? (I would add trim to finish it). Or should I make it so the drywall extends the extra 10" down to the concrete floor? (There would be nothing securing the bottom 10" of drywall) 4) How does the ceiling assembly work with staggered wall construction? Can you point me to any information regarding this? I've been searching but haven't found much info. Also, regarding building the new isolated live room ceiling below the existing drywalled ceiling you said -

You could do that. Yes, it would be a 3-leaf system, but you can compensate for that.

So you're saying that it's ok to frame and drywall the new ceiling underneath the existing drywall ceiling without removing the existing drywall or modifying that ceiling? Just want to be sure on that. Could you explain what you mean by "you can compensate for that"? Lastly, I borrowed an IR camera from work the other day to see if I could find the radiant heat tubing in the slab and..voila!! Worked like a charm! I could see all the lines in a fair bit of detail. So now I should be able to map out all the lines in the floor to make sure I don't puncture any when securing the base plates. Here are some photos of it - Thanks again Stuart. I know you've got a million threads on the go and I really appreciate you taking the time to help us diy'ers. :thu:

I found the answer to the ceiling question in another post. Just wanted to post that here in case anyone else is wondering the same thing:

Yes it can work. Sometimes there is no choice but to do a 3-leaf, and even though the isolation is lower than for the equivalent 2-leaf, you can compensate for that with more mass and bigger air gaps. In your case, you would do that by putting drywall on the bottom of those joists to create the "middle" leaf, then building your rooms under that, and putting the final ceilings on as a third leaf. If you get enough mass and air gaps, then you can still get the isolation you want.

That quote is from this thread - http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=19691 As far as enough mass and air gaps, is 6.5" from the existing drywall to the new drywall enough air gap? (New joists 1" under existing ceiling, 2x6 new joists so 5.5" = 6.5" total.) Then for mass: 5/8" drywall -> green glue -> 5/8 drywall. Thanks Stuart!

I've been trying to figure out a way to isolate the control room as you suggested, but without losing too much floor space. I was reading this post on Soundproofing.com about adding staggered studs to an existing wall

I guess it could work, but I'd like to see actual data on that method, from tests in an acoustic lab. I'd also like to see the opinion of some inspectors on whether or not it meets code. It might be easier (and more effective) to use RSIC clips and hat channel.

1) I know the isolation won't be as good as fully decoupled wall assemblies but could this be a reasonable alternative?

Possibly, yes, but as I said, you'll never know unless it has been tested in a reputable acoustic lab. :)

2) Should I use resilient channel with the staggered studs?

Good question! Once again, you'd be your own guinea pig here, testing stuff that hasn't been tried and proven in a lab. In theory, it might work, but sometimes in practice there are effects that nobody considered, until the test data comes in and needs an explanation...

Or should I make it so the drywall extends the extra 10" down to the concrete floor? (There would be nothing securing the bottom 10" of drywall)

I would take it all the way down to the floor, and put a 1x1 furring strip on the floor, behind it, to attach the bottom edge to. Yes, that's a potential flanking path, but you can't just leave it floating and unsupported, and you also can't leave it hanging in mid air, 10" up.

4) How does the ceiling assembly work with staggered wall construction? Can you point me to any information regarding this? I've been searching but haven't found much info.

I don't normally do staggered-stud walls, so I can't tell you from experience, but what I probably would do is hang the inner-leaf joists from the original top plates, with joists hangers, then use RSIC clips and hat channel to decouple the drywall.

So you're saying that it's ok to frame and drywall the new ceiling underneath the existing drywall ceiling without removing the existing drywall or modifying that ceiling? Just want to be sure on that. Could you explain what you mean by "you can compensate for that"?

Sometimes you have no choice but to create a three-leaf system, knowing that it won't be as good for low frequencies as a two-leaf system. When that happens, you can force the MSM resonance point back down again by putting more mass on the middle leaf and at least one other leaf, and/or by increasing the air gap between the middle leaf and the final leaf to something greater than what it would have been if it were only a two leaf system. The resonant frequency is governed mostly by tow factors: mass, and air gap. Increasing either of those forces the resonant frequency down lower.

Lastly, I borrowed an IR camera from work the other day to see if I could find the radiant heat tubing in the slab and..voila!! Worked like a charm! I could see all the lines in a fair bit of detail. So now I should be able to map out all the lines in the floor to make sure I don't puncture any when securing the base plates. Here are some photos of it -

Cool! Works great! :thu: - Stuart -

Ok, I've alllllmost got it all figured out now.. :) There's just a couple construction details I'm still struggling with that are keeping me from finalizing this design. 1) Back to the ceiling.. Ok I think I get what you're saying, but bottom line, which one of these is the best method for isolation: a. remove drywall on the existing ceiling, frame new rooms and ceiling joists, hang new drywall ceilings in new rooms (5/8" ->GG -> 5/8") and put a couple layers of insulation above them (as needed for thermal requirements as well as isolation). b. Remove drywall on the existing ceiling, add new drywall or possibly plywood layers on top of those existing ceiling joists (creating an attic basically), frame new rooms and ceiling joists, hang new drywall ceilings in new rooms (same as option A) c. Leave existing drywall ceiling as is, frame new rooms and ceiling joists a few inches underneath it, then drywall new ceilings as above. 2) Do I need to beef up the interior side of the roof, between the rafters, as I'm planning on doing to the exterior walls? Maybe this depends on the answer to the previous question..? And lastly (and this is a big one!) 3) Exterior window construction!?! How to do this properly?! I'd like to have windows to the outside world where the current windows are. I know this is going to make isolation more difficult but there's no compromise on this, I want this studio to have windows! I live in a cold climate and all our windows are double paned with argon gas in between. This means having two of these windows (inner and outer leaf) will create 4 leaves. So what's the proper way to do this? Just use the thickest double pane windows I can get and create 4 leaves of glass? Or do I use only double pane on the exterior wall and single thick pane laminate glass on the interior? Won't this cause frost and moisture build up on the interior window, as well as still being 3 leaf? I can't seem to find any info about this or good studio build examples where they dealt with this problem. Please help!! Thanks as always Stuart. I wish I could just hire you to design this! :-?