Band rehearsal room construction/planning

Hi everyone! I am new here (at least newly registered, I have been spying on you for a while :P ). My name is Jan, drummer, born and raised in Germany but residing in Athens Greece for about 7 years. I am currently planning a rehearsal space for my (currently) 2 bands and some side projects. This topic is started to also document the progress in terms of construction. One funny coincidence that I have to mention before I get to the point. While I was studying the subject, I came across one topic in this forum which I got stuck with, started by beeros05. Not that he is also from Athens, but somehow I remembered this nickname from somewhere else. And I indeed found out from where - he had uploaded some live videos from my band on youtube :shock: So, greetings at this point! :D So, now to the point. After I moved to Greece and joined my first bands here, I was quickly frustrated with how things work here. There is no such things as e.g. old buildings with rooms that are rented to bands as I was used to in Germany , or at least very difficult to find and then expensive to rent or having to share with multiple other bands (which then loses the point again for me). What you do here, is rent actual recording or special rehearsal studios by the hour (hourly rate usually 10 Euro), meaning you lose 20 minutes just to set up at least, not even mentioning having to carry cymbals, pedal, sticks and possibly electronics (metronomes and whatnot). Luckily, when I moved in with my girlfriend into the building owned by her family, I got the opportunity for a big garage/storage type room. For almost a year now, I have slowly started planning things in my head, reading a lot about this subject and now recently started with the actual layout (using SketchUp) Following are details of the available room: - Garage/Store (4m by 6.4m) with ceiling height of about 3.4 meters - The entrance is problematic from a soundproofing point of view, as it is full glass and very poorly sealing doors. - The garage is on the ground floor and has a concrete foundation with a tiled floor. I am hopefully able to get more details on the foundation - The left side has a concrete wall, which is directly attached to the next building (which has also a concrete wall, therefore double thickness), luckily there is no living space directly behind that but the staircase - The back wall and right wall are made from a single ply plasterboard on a wooden skeleton, just to divide the space into 2 rooms, rather than the original one big one - Above this garage is the dining room of my girlfriends parents, which is only used on festive occasions - A total of 4 columns are directly in this room, that a bearing the whole building Here is the SketchUp model of just the room and a google street view image from the street. Now, these are my plans/goals: - I want to be able to rehearse with my band/play drums at reasonable hours (not 24/7) - The neighborhood is noisy in general, especially in summer. I actually play drums in my bedroom at the moment, which is however on the other side of the building, but has not received any soundproofing treatment at all, no complaints from neighbors so far, apart from the person living on the third floor after I actually recorded drums for several hours :P (Which I can understand). - We are medium loud I would say, considering the genre is Trash Metal, however dB levels can currently not be measured - I want to construct a room within the existing structure, 3.2 m wide, 5 m long and 2.5 m high. - No floating floor is planned, as the foundation is concrete and therefore hopefully sufficient (correct me if you think otherwise) - I want to close off the glass front with a mix of aerate concrete on the lower part , for stability (just until above the door arch) and aluminium profiles with plasterboard on top of that (to save weight and budget as well). This is done in order to make the structure itself airtight (which is currently not given due to the poorly sealing doors. This is what I planned in order to seal the glass front: The middle glass door will be removed and just behind that will be the new entrance door, which will be a security, heavy core door. And now this is my plan for the inner structure so far: - Free standing walls, screwed to the concrete floor, with a combination of 7.5 cm x 7.5 cm wood at the corners and the middle of the wall for increased stability - 7.5 cm aluminum profiles in standard drywall construction distances for the drywall - Self carrying ceiling, resting on the new structure, with 4.5 cm x 9.5 cm dimensions. Load bearing capacity is already calculated and sufficient This is the Sketchup model of the inner structure so far: Final details: Drums , bass amp and possibly guitar amps will be resting on properly calculated floating bases in order to avoid structural borne noise. I plan to use a material called Sylomer, which is a foam based pad (or strip) that can be calculated and cut, specified to weight resting on each pad. This however is something I have not yet fully thought through, since it is too early and too many other things to worry about first :P Now, finally here are some questions and uncertainties I still need to figure out and maybe you guys can help me here, which would be very much appreciated. 1. Do you believe that the walls should possibly be floated? The fact, that the foundation is concrete, normally should mean no, as I have read everywhere, however I am wondering if the tiles make any difference here? 2. I am quite handy with construction and I have already build a non carrying dry-wall, but this would be my first build that carries something - the ceiling. Can I combine the wood as outer columns with standard aluminum profiles? The reason I want to do that is simply due to less cost. An aluminum profile of 3 meters is around 3 euro here while a wooden column with the dimensions would be at around 9-10 euros. 3. Do you believe that I even need the wooden columns for increased stability (mainly for carrying the ceiling) or do you think I can use alu profiles for all walls ? The ceiling would remain with wooden joists of course. 4. What is your opinion about the layers of drywall? Should I consider 2, 3 or more and what is your opinion on the neccessarity of adding green glue? 5. Any other suggestions or input on my plans so far? I have done my research but of course I am no expert and might still be missing something. Well, I think that's it for now. Thank you for having this wonderful board and for your help and input in advance! Edit: Just for additional insight, here are some photos from inside (which is currently still a mess, typical storage room for all kinds of useless things)

Hi there Jan, and Welcome! Somehow I missed your first post, and I only just found it again. Sorry about that! :oops:

Garage/Store (4m by 6.4m) with ceiling height of about 3.4 meters

A reasonable size, and with a nice high ceiling. That's good! You will lose some space on all sides if you want high isolation, but you should still have space for a decent rehearsal room.

- The entrance is problematic from a soundproofing point of view, as it is full glass and very poorly sealing doors.

The glass is not too much of a problem, but the non-sealing door is!

- The garage is on the ground floor and has a concrete foundation with a tiled floor.

that's excellent! A very good base for your studio.

- The left side has a concrete wall, which is directly attached to the next building (which has also a concrete wall, therefore double thickness),

No air space at all between the two buildings? The walls are in full contact all the way?

- The back wall and right wall are made from a single ply plasterboard on a wooden skeleton, just to divide the space into 2 rooms, rather than the original one big one

What is on the other side of those two? Will those spaces be used by people? Anything very noisy in there, like pumps of motors or furnaces?

- Above this garage is the dining room of my girlfriends parents, which is only used on festive occasions

What is that ceiling made of? How thick?

- We are medium loud I would say, considering the genre is Trash Metal, however dB levels can currently not be measured

You should try to measure that. Get a simple sound level meter. Good ones cost around US$ 100. Just don't get one of the lousy ones from China that cost around US$ 30: those are toys. Not useful.

- I want to construct a room within the existing structure, 3.2 m wide, 5 m long and 2.5 m high.

If you have 3.4m of height, then why not use more of it? A room with more volume will almost always sound better for drums. Also, the width could be more: Why only 2.5m wide when you have 4m available?

- No floating floor is planned, as the foundation is concrete and therefore hopefully sufficient (correct me if you think otherwise)

Perfectly correct! ( viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8173 )

- I want to close off the glass front with a mix of aerate concrete on the lower part , for stability (just until above the door arch) and aluminium profiles with plasterboard on top of that (to save weight and budget as well). This is done in order to make the structure itself airtight (which is currently not given due to the poorly sealing doors

Yo could do that, yes. But it might be better to go up all the way with concrete block.

The middle glass door will be removed and just behind that will be the new entrance door, which will be a security, heavy core door.

:thu:

- Free standing walls, screwed to the concrete floor, with a combination of 7.5 cm x 7.5 cm wood at the corners and the middle of the wall for increased stability - 7.5 cm aluminum profiles in standard drywall construction distances for the drywall

I'm wondering about the reason why you want to mix wood and metal studs. It would be better to go with just wood, or just metal. It's not so easy to build "hybrid" framing with mixed materials.

- Self carrying ceiling, resting on the new structure, with 4.5 cm x 9.5 cm dimensions. Load bearing capacity is already calculated and sufficient

I'm not so sure your calculations are correct! To span a distance of 2.5m with the typical loads of a studio ceiling, I figure you would need 2x6 joists, at least. That's 4.5cm x 14cm. Which span calculations did you use?

This is the Sketchup model of the inner structure so far:

There are problems with your framing plan: You do not have any nailing surfaces above the edges of the ceiling drywall, and you do not have any cross-bracing on the ceiling. That framing would not pass inspection in most countries. Even if it does pass in Greece, it's still no good for a studio: you should fix those two problems.

Drums , bass amp and possibly guitar amps will be resting on properly calculated floating bases in order to avoid structural borne noise. - I plan to use a material called Sylomer, which is a foam based pad (or strip) that can be calculated and cut, specified to weight resting on each pad. - This however is something I have not yet fully thought through, since it is too early and too many other things to worry about first

Search the forum for the term "drum riser". Once of the other moderators here (Glenn) has posted a design several times for a simple, effective, low-cost method of doing that.

1. Do you believe that the walls should possibly be floated?

Nope! Not necessary, and dangerous unless done properly, which is expensive. Your wall must be attached to the floor with bolt, nails or screws (earthquakes.... :!: :shock: ). It is not an option to eave them unattached. There are systems that allow them to be attached and still decoupled, but that adds complexity and expense, and you don't need to do that, unless you need very high levels of isolation.

however I am wondering if the tiles make any difference here?

No difference. I'm assuming those are ceramic tiles, properly attached to the floor with tile adhesive, or cement?

the ceiling. Can I combine the wood as outer columns with standard aluminum profiles?

I suppose you could, but I'm not sure it will be easy, or even legal.

The reason I want to do that is simply due to less cost. An aluminum profile of 3 meters is around 3 euro

Is that for the heavy-gauge load-bearing type??? :) Or is that for the lighter-gauge type that is just mean for building partition walls?

3. Do you believe that I even need the wooden columns for increased stability (mainly for carrying the ceiling) or do you think I can use alu profiles for all walls ?

There are two types of metal framing, as I mentioned above. One type is meant for building simple partitions that are not load-bearing, and is made from thin gauge metal. The other type is specifically designed to carry load-bearing structures, and is made from thicker metal that is more expensive and harder to work with. You cannot use the thin, cheap type here, since this is a load-bearing application. You must use the thicker ones. I think you'll find that there isn't much difference between those and ordinary 2x4 wood framing.

4. What is your opinion about the layers of drywall? Should I consider 2, 3 or more

It's hard to say without having real decibel measurements.... but probably 2 layers will be enough (they must be 16mm, not 12mm, not 10mm....). You would only need 3 layers of you have a need for very high levels of isolation.

what is your opinion on the neccessarity of adding green glue?

It works! It does what the manufacturer claims it does. You might need it, or might not. Once again, that depends on how much isolation you need.

5. Any other suggestions or input on my plans so far? I have done my research but of course I am no expert and might still be missing something.

Your outer leaf must be sealed air-tight, and you need insulation between the inner leaf and outer leaf. You could make your studio bigger inside by building your inner-leaf walls closer to the outer leaf walls, and making a "kink" around the support columns. So most of the studio would be wider, except at those points. More room volume = better acoustics. - Stuart -