Tie Lines - Microphone lines - patches ... best/most-used ?

Attn: long rambling post, thinking out loud here Hi guys, I'm in the middle of the designing/planning stage of my studio (control, live, iso, 75m² total) and was trying to find a way of dealing with the studio in and outputs.. Here's my situation/questions:

Don't know yet on how many lines in total I will be needing/wanting, but I have 32 track simultaneaous recording capability, though possibly never needed - let's assume 24 lines from live room, 8 from Iso, both rooms 8 returning lines

I have 4 TT-bays but they're almost filled with just inserts/tapesend/returns/FX/...

My mixing desk is a Soundcraft Ghost which sounds great, but their drawback is that the +48V phantom knobbies are positioned behind the meterbridge.

Options would be: A) hardwire the lines to mic inputs, and by default switch on 48V on some channels. - drawbacks could be: it's not comfy having a non-logic track order, you always need more 48V channels, it wouldn't be possible using outboard preamps (which I don't own -yet- :lol: ) B) wire me some empty rack panels, punched with D-size's and install XLRs and use short XLR cables ... - costly, and not very flexible; imagine I want to route a Cd-player output to one of the returns... C) get another TT-bay and wire the lines to that. - same problem with the phantom-power-button thing, TT or 1/4" bays kill microphones when phantom is active ... Basically my 'problem'/question comes down to this: How do you all handle this problem ? what type of patch do you use for microphone lines ? TT ? 1/4" ? XLR ? none ? Maybe I should think of a way to re-route the phantom-power buttons on my Ghost, but that's a rather drastic way of modding a board TIa, Herwig

The patch is your choice. TT is smaller so you get 96 patch points in a bay vs 48 with 1/4" patch. (general info for other readers) Either way is good. Most SSl equipped studios have TT's. The other issue is cost. 1/4" tends to be a little less than TT and the cables are cheaper as well. The Phantom issue you are dealing with is when you insert the cable it creates a temprary short which is not good and with you phatom buttons behnd the meter bridge that is aproblem. that will occur regardless of what PB you use. The problem as you stated is the location of your Phantom Power buttons. Cuz obviously the simple solution is to disengage phantom then inserrt then re engage phantom. No I have a question. If you normaled all your snake upits through the bay and into the desk, why would the +48 be an issue except when you PLUG IN a microphone???? Do you as a habit disengage phantom when patching a microhpne into your desk currently? Just trying to figure out a LAZY man's workaround that inconvenient phantom switch location issue. Now as I was typing this I decided to revisit a patch bay site and they mentioned sleeve normaling type patch bays as a possible solution to your phantom problem

Patchbays with sleeve-normalling jacks are more essential these days, due to increased use of condenser microphones (which require a constant power supply). These microphones receive their required DC Power supply through the balanced audio signal lines and the ground line of the microphone cord. Voltage is applied to both the hot(+) and cold(-) wires, and is returned to the power supply by the shield (ground) wire. This method of supplying power to a microphone is known as phantom power In a typical normalled patchbay, only Tip and Ring normals are needed for a normal path (see p. 6), and the sleeves are either bussed or ignored. When making a connection requiring phantom power through a normalled patchbay, you need to provide that channel with a discrete, normalled ground path as well. During unpatched operation, you have to normal the sleeve of the source to the sleeve of the destination jack to maintain a complete power circuit, since the sleeve returns the DC voltage to the power supply. When patched, all three normal contacts must be broken to avoid directing that channel’s phantom power to multiple sources.

hope this helps

Thanks for the reply. Using the wall panel in the live room as patch is not a bad idea at all - will take a look at those patches you mentioned - will also take a look inside the desk (too bad it only opens up from under) and see if moving the buttons is a possibility. thanks again, Herwig

IMHO : I would not recommend running mics thru any patchbay ( jackfield) at anytime, EVER ! Jacks, TT or 1/4", were not designed for low level signals and will become noisy over time due to poor contact pressure on the normals or just plain dirt. I have never in 35 years of studio experience seen mics thru a patchbay be anything but trouble. Yes, they sound great in theory and look good on paper, but in a week or month or a year you WILL have trouble. This is to say nothing about the visiting engineer that unknowingly patches phantom power into your precious new compressor. OUCH ! Durff

What about us poor guys who run Live Remote trucks????? we need to be able to run the mics through a patchbay so we can route them as needed. Just a question as I have been doing remotes for the past 8 years with my own truck and dealing with remote recording for 14 years. (not as long.... :) ) But As we all know the sound business is a BIG OLE practice, I am always open to new ways to do things. Secondly........All the SSL equipped studios I have worked in (not a lot I am sure by your time in service) have the mic jack panel routed (normalled) through the patch bay. Of course maybe that is whay SSL sells all us a maintenance pkg. Which is the final rule (but unspoken) Just like our cars we HAVE TO maintian them to get optimum performance. Which means parts cleaning, and replacememnt from time to time. Just a side Journey. In my 23 years of doing sound and mixing with Lav's a lot of Sound Companies want to use a Lav for ever and ever, and my practical experience is that the elements are no good after 6 months. So as we learn to MAINTAIN our gear we realize that the little 40 to 200 dollar element needs to swapped out every so often to retain optimum performance for the speaker that is paying us to do our jobs and give him good sound. :) (Not trying to start a war, just reminding everyone that nothing in this life will last forever without proper maintenance.)

Mic inputs, mic tie lines, patchbays... This is an individual preference. Some engineers don't mind the voltage running through their patchbays, and some are completely against it. There advantages and disadvantages to both. Deadpoet...to answer your questions... Here's what I would suggest. Hardwire your 32 mic lines directly to the mic inputs of the console. Maybe run an extra 4 or 8 pair snake from each live/iso room and bring them into the control room. Currently you have no outboard pre's, but when you do, you'll have the cables there and ready to plug directly into the pre's. Then from the pre's, you can plug into the patchbay directly to tape or a channel line input or outboard gear. :D Aaron

That sounds like a reasonable solution.. on the other hand it leaves no space for eg. some mic inputs in the control room... aargh my mind.. I'm going to rethink everything the next coming months. (just in planning phase, currently negociating with the owner of a piece of building land about the price of it) Thanks again for the information all. Herwig

You can still do mic inputs in the CR. You may have to reconfigure a few things though. Do you have a use for all 24 lines in the live room? You can reconfigure to have a few less if you don't need all 24.

Just curious and need to know: So if you shouldn't run mics thru a patchbay and phantom power, how should studios like mine be wire? I run ALL outboard preamps that can't really be hardwired to a mic line cause I have so many different pres and not as many mic inputs channels. Every studio I have worked in the tie lines ALWAYS end at a patchbay, whether they are normaled to the console channel or not.

I agree with you Carl. Most studio's I've ever been in, have the tie lines coming up on the bay. Including the console I have at the moment and most any other console I've worked on (not all...Soundcraft being one of them not running tie lines on their bays.) For someone who has a whole rack of outboard mic pre's, it's the only way to go. For someone who doesn't have that at the moment, or plan to have pre's, wire the most direct path. Personally I prefer the ability and flexibility of having all tie lines come up on a patch bay. I've never had any issues or problems myself. Carl...Does your console have phantom power on "all the time" or is it "switchable"? Aaron

Aaronw wrote:

Carl...Does your console have phantom power on "all the time" or is it "switchable"?

I will not be running a console. I run Pro Tools so everything will be outboard pres on a patchbay. I will also be running a control surface to the idea of a traditional console is moot.

Ah Hah! OK, now I know which angle you're coming from. That's a different setup for sure. Are you going w/ Pro Control, Control 24 or the new bad boy that starts at 70k? :D Aaron

For what just the Icon costs, I can get a full blown Pro Control and PTHD Accel 3 system with the computer and everything with some other toys. Although if I ever open a surround mix room I would be interested in the Icon.

Amen to that! So, what rig are you running for the studio? If you want, start yourself a thread on your PT setup. I think we hijacked this one. :? :shock: Aaron

Actually it stays interesting, everybody's got different patching needs, just wanted to see/hear how everybody deals with this. Herwig.

Aaronw wrote:

what rig are you running for the studio?

Right now just a 002, I am working out of temp space after moving out of my apartment for recording. Once I get the studio built I will be installing the HD system.

Carl, So when you go to the HD rig, what kind of setup do you plan to do?

What do you mean? System wise? Controller?

What do you mean? System wise? Controller?

Are you going w/ the HD 1, 2, or 3? Which interfaces...192 analog or digital or 96 analog or digital? How many? Any other interfaces? What control surface...Pro Control or Control 24 or a 3rd party controller? How many in's and out's (same as question above w/ interfaces)? Just trying to get an idea to help lay out the patchbay(s). How many outboard mic pre's/channels do have that need to come on the bay? What about outboard gear? Compressors, gates, effects, etc.? Do you need cue (headphone) sends? What about any 2 track recorders, or 6 for surround? What about monitors? One set of monitors (near fields) or also a pair of mains? Do you need the ability to transfer from other formats such as 2" machine, or other tape machines? Any SMPTE connections or sync options needed? What about any network connections? What about any video options? Are you running one monitor or dual monitors? The list can go on and on. Aaron

HD3 Accel with one 192 and one Apogee AD-16XGD, sync IO Pro Control with a few fader packs. I have started woring out the patchbays with the gear. Here's the Excel of it so far.

How many mic tie lines do you need/want coming from the tracking/iso rooms? Do you have any sidechains on the compressors that you want to come up on the bay? It looks like you're also adding the HD mic pre? BTW...nice gear list... :D :D 8) Now we just need to add the extra row Normalled, Halfnormalled, de-normalled. I've made a few mod's. I'm not done w/ it though...but it's the end of a very long week and I'm going home for the weekend. So have a good weekend, and I'll be back online Monday morning. :D Aaron

Aaronw wrote:

How many mic tie lines do you need/want coming from the tracking/iso rooms?

I plan on 24 in the live room, 8 in the iso and 10 in the CR, not that I will use everyone of them. Most of them will be the Neutrik combo jacks for DI boxes, tie lines for amp and keyboards. I have pretty much nailed out everything I believe I will need. All of the outboard gear will be run pre-PT. Once it's in the computer, I will be processing everything in there until the stereo output. PS - I was just looking at the new chart you made. I am planning on having everything non normaled. I want full control over the ins and outs. I don't want any mic line to normal to any preamp. I have already been working with Audio Accesories on the setup for each patchbay. I do really appreciate your help! :o

Most of them will be the Neutrik combo jacks for DI boxes

I don't know if you've wired these before. They have 2 sets of pins for wiring. One set for the XLR and one set for the 1/4" jack. Are you going to wire them together on one line or run 2 lines for each connector?

Wire them together balanced. I've worked with nearly every type of connector. I used to work for Whirlwind soldering and shrinkwrapping custom cables and panels.

Ah...well it looks like you're ready to go. Gotta love sniffin that lead solder...NOT. :D :roll: