Making a shed drumproof - all advice welcome!

Hi all, First off, great website. Amazing amount of information and advice. Some amazing threads and builds to browse through! So my situation is I'm hoping to get some advice on how I could further improve my garden shed and make it as drum/sound proof as possible. I understand that getting 100% soundproof won't be possible, especially as this isn't a new build. But to be able to improve it as much as possible would be great. Below are a few pictures of the shed. It was initially built as an everyday utility shed/man cave. If I leave any vital details out or more is needed, please let me know: Aim - To reduce any drum/guitar related noise escaping from the shed as much as possible. I live in an estate, with neighbours all around with dogs and young babies everywhere. I don't have a target dB level in mind, but to get it to an acceptable level where I could jam for 1-2 hours in the evenings and at weekends without too much notice would be the goal...and also add an air vent system. Current setup - The shed is built with a solid concrete foundation. It's raised a bit above the garden level due to poor drainage within the estate/surrounding gardens. The shed itself consists of 2 rooms. An entrance on the left leads into a small utility area (approx 1/3 of the space) for general shed use. Another internal door then leads into the room where the drums, bikes and other bits are kept (approx 2/3 of the space). The walls are build with solid block (laid flat side down creating a wider wall). Then studded, insulated and with 2 layers of plasterboard on top. The internal dividing wall is the same. The ceiling is a flat roof on timber joists. Two layers of insulation and 2 layers of plasterboard. Potential issues - Well you all seem very experienced and knowledgeable, so you can probably see straight off where the problems are or will arise. The shed was built as a music/arcade machine/bike storage/jamming area. It was an overkill build, but it was built for a really low cost so the overkill aspect was my doing, insisting everything be thicker/bigger/more!. Being in Ireland, on the coast, cold and damp/rain are always a constant issue which is why I went OTT on some aspects. All in all, it does what's required for the time being (retains most noise, doesn't get cold or damp inside considering It has no vents or heaters). The only thing it doesn't do is soundproof the live drums, which is what I would love to be able to use the most. The doors/seals straight away are a weak point. Would a double internal door system be the way to go and a better external door, or just use single thicker doors for the external and internal entrances? Air vent - This is something I initially asked the builder to leave out as I knew they leak a lot of noise and wanted to install one after I researched options that would help reduce noise output (I can see this being causing alarm bells, trying to install post build, but don't crucify me!) Budget - I don't have a set budget per-se, unless the advice is rip it down and start over :mrgreen: So any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm being realistic here, so if you think its a non runner or would involve massive amounts of reworking, please say so!. Thanks, Stuart

Hi there Stuart! Meet your namesake! :) And welcome to the forum.

The walls are build with solid block (laid flat side down creating a wider wall). Then studded, insulated and with 2 layers of plasterboard on top.

When you say "studded", do you mean that you attached stud framing directly to the outer concrete block wall? Or did you leave a gap between the concrete block wall and the stud frame? If you did not leave a gap, then there's your problem... Also, did you fill the air cavity between the concrete block wall and the plasterboard wall with acoustically suitable porous absorption, such as fiberglass insulation with a density of around 30kg/m3, or mineral wool insulation with a density of around 50 kg/m3? If not, then there's your problem... Also, did you seal the surface of that concrete block wall with some some type of masonry sealant, or at least with a good coat of paint, before you put up the plasterboard inner-leaf? If not, then there's your problem...

The internal dividing wall is the same.

How was that built? Is it done as a proper fully-decoupled two-leaf MSM system, or is that dividing wall also connected to the outer-leaf concrete block wall? If it is mechanically commected to the block wall, then there's your problem...

The ceiling is a flat roof on timber joists. Two layers of insulation and 2 layers of plasterboard.

Are those joists resting ONLY on the inner framing, or are the also attached to the outer concrete block wall? If they are attached to the block, then there's your problem... Also, you mention the ceiling but didn't mention the roof? how is the roof built?

so you can probably see straight off where the problems are or will arise.

I do have my suspicions, yes! :)

It was an overkill build,

It doesn't sound like overkill: it sounds about right for drum isolation... assuming that the inner-leaf walls are fully decoupled form the out-leaf walls, that the inner-leaf ceiling rests only on the inner-leaf walls, and that that outer leaf roof has similar mass to the outer leaf walls. If that's not the case, then it is "under-kill", not overkill.

The only thing it doesn't do is soundproof the live drums,

Measurements would be very useful here! How much isolation are you getting right now, in decibels? In other words, get someone to play your drums for you, loud and hard, while you measure that level inside the room (Use "C" weighting, slow response"), then go outside, close the door, and measure the level outside in several locations, all around the shed. Let us know what the results are. And do make sure that you use a decent sound level meter, not just an app in a smart phone! Or even worse, a cheap Chinese "toy" meter... With that info we can help figure out what is wrong, and what to do about it.

The doors/seals straight away are a weak point. Would a double internal door system be the way to go and a better external door, or just use single thicker doors for the external and internal entrances?

Assuming that you have a proper 2-leaf isolation system in place (inner-leaf stud framed walls mechanically decoupled from outer-leaf concrete block walls), then you most definitely need a pair of back-to-back doors there: one door goes in the outer-leaf, and the other door goes in the inner-leaf. Both doors must be massive (very heavy) and have at least two separate and independent full-perimeter seals (in other words, seals that run all the way around the edge: top, both sides, and bottom).

Air vent - This is something I initially asked the builder to leave out

Big mistake! But don't feel bad: most first-time studio builders make the exact same mistake. It's really hard to retrofit a proper acoustically isolating HVAC system into an existing MSM wall and still retain the correct decoupling....

I can see this being causing alarm bells, trying to install post build, but don't crucify me!

RRRIIIINNNGGG!!!!! Yup. Would you prefer to bu hung, drawn and quartered? Or just burned at the stake? :) 8) :lol: :!: :cop:

I don't have a set budget per-se, unless the advice is rip it down and start over

The concrete block outer-leaf wall probably does not need tearing down, but depending on your answers to the questions above about decoupling of the inner-leaf walls and the ceiling, that might need tearing down and re-doing if you really do want good isolation for your drums.... But even if it does come to that, you can probably still salvage most of the materials that you used there to re-build the walls properly.

so if you think its a non runner or would involve massive amounts of reworking, please say so!

Ummm... maybe! But a lot depends on answers to the above questions. Do you have photos of how it was built? In other words, did you take photos at several stages during the construction process, showing how the block wall was built, how the framing was done, how the insulation was done, how the plasterboard was put up, how the ceiling was done, etc? If so, please post those photos. If not, then draw some clear diagrams to show how you did that, so we can get a better grasp of what might be wrong here. Please provide as much info as possible. - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

Hi there Stuart! Meet your namesake! :) And welcome to the forum. Please provide as much info as possible. - Stuart -

Hey, thanks for getting back to me. There's plenty there for me to work out, I'll get as much additional info and photos as I can...but I now have this dreaded knot in my stomach as I fear a lot of the answers will be the wrong ones!!

You cannot call this a completed job until it is sealed. You have a lightweight most likely hollow core door there...no threshold and bare to no seals on the door jamb. If I was looking for an acoustic hole...that would be my starting place and I would address it first.

Hey, thanks for the replies. I have checked, and the results are: Walls are solid block with the studs attached directly onto the block, solid insulation sheets (similar to the ceiling as per image attached), and then 2 plasterboards mounted onto the studs...so essentially one wall. Ceiling/roof is the same, joists resting onto the block, insulation between (as per image). Inner ceiling is plasterboard and exterior roof is marine ply wood, covered with a Trocal membrane finish. The internal divider wall is block, built as one with the external wall. So all in all, its just a well insulated room. When it was being built I didn't really have a proper acoustic hole in mind, so hence the design. So the next question...what are my options here!. All i could realistically get away with would be redoing the internal walls. Changing the roof or block walls wouldn't bode well with the wife! Would stripping the internal walls of the internal room back to the block, and then rebuilding the walls/ceiling as a two leaf system be the best option?. I don't have a sound level metre, i'll try get my hands on one, but currently when playing the drums they can be heard clearly when standing in the garden. From inside the house (about 30 feet away) with the door closed, you wouldn't hear much (but thats with windows and doors closed). The target would be to be able to play as much as possible with as little noise escaping as possible (sorry i know thats a fairly vague answer...basically low enough to not annoy dogs or neighbours in surrounding gardens). xSpace - regarding the doors and seals, this is definitely a current weak spot. I think improving these would make a difference, but i'm in two minds about what way to approach this now. I could improve them and create better doors and seals, but my fear is that i'd still have noise escaping and then be back to square one. I'll see what you guys think, giving my answers above and go from there. If I'm going to do this, i'll do it right this time!!! Thanks again, Stuart

" but my fear is that i'd still have noise escaping and then be back to square one. " It will still be a requirement in the next phase. Your goal is to create mass that is consistent as possible to maintain as much of the overall frequency that you require to meet your objective. Windows and doors are the most common weak points in any build...any build anywhere in the world yours included. Now you can do other things that it might need to make a more consistent mass assembly but until you correct the failing of the weak point/leak that is that door, you will not hit your requirement. Ever.

xSpace wrote:

" but my fear is that i'd still have noise escaping and then be back to square one. " It will still be a requirement in the next phase. Your goal is to create mass that is consistent as possible to maintain as much of the overall frequency that you require to meet your objective. Windows and doors are the most common weak points in any build...any build anywhere in the world yours included. Now you can do other things that it might need to make a more consistent mass assembly but until you correct the failing of the weak point/leak that is that door, you will not hit your requirement. Ever.

Yeah I get what you're saying alright, and it does make sense. I suppose I'm just wondering what way to approach it. I could replace both doors and frames with a better system, but then if it ends up the internal space needs additional work would the door then need to be replaced again to suit the changes or ditched in place of a 2 door system. Really what I'm wondering is, would you feel better doors/frames would make that much of a difference that might safe any further changes, or given the spec of the room would you feel further work would be inevitable?. Sorry for the total noobie questions, I'm just on a big learning curve here. I'll keep reading through other threads in the meantime, try and educate myself some more! Cheers. Stuart

Here are some research documents I have stored: http://1drv.ms/1DFGpr9 Select the "BBC" folder and read or print the (2)two documents, one titled: "The sound insulation of studio doors part 1:Door blanks and the other titled "The sound insulation of studio doors part 2:Door seals I don't know how to get my point across about how important proper mass and sealing is to isolate sound. You already trusted that to help you build this thing so I am at a loss as to why you cannot see the importance. It could well be that you built flanking paths in when you framed the interior. It could be just as easy that you did not decouple the ceiling and with a coupled roof system this is a low frequency escape area as well. If we had seen it during the building it would have been more helpful....to us. My opinion, at this point that door is in fact an issue as you said in your first post.

The doors/seals straight away are a weak point. Would a double internal door system be the way to go and a better external door, or just use single thicker doors for the external and internal entrances?

Where ever the door is that actually gets you directly into the drum room needs mass and better sealing. There are some things to consider. Three things should always be in your mind when developing high isolation: 1. High Mass 2. Low rigidity 3. High damping As you read the above documents I linked for you, you will come across several areas where the documents suggest that rigidity of mass and frame actually render a lower isolation ability in the low frequency area. But I will bet that their isolation is still higher than yours in respect to the existing door/type and seals plus the threshold. So you can ponder on these things until you get your head around what is the possible culprit and maybe you can get it fixed and have a happy drumming time in the future.

Hey xSpace, sorry if I'm coming across as ignoring your advice, its not intentional. I do understand what you're saying about the door and frame and see the importance of fixing these areas. Thanks so much for the BBC docs, I'll have a read through them today. It gives me a good base from which to start. Cheers, Stuart.

xSpace wrote:

My opinion, at this point that door is in fact an issue as you said in your first post. Where ever the door is that actually gets you directly into the drum room needs mass and better sealing. There are some things to consider. Three things should always be in your mind when developing high isolation: 1. High Mass 2. Low rigidity 3. High damping

Hi Brien, I've read up on the doors and seals and have looked at the options (mostly Rod Gervais version of the door and seals). Would using a Rod style door and frame on the internal room be enough or do you think both doors would need the same treatment?. Thanks, Stuart.

Not there don't know. I would build one on the actual room that has your drums.