I'm moving into a new home within the next upcoming months and have been racking my brain trying to figure out exactly how I'm going to fit my equipment in the house and the significant other had the idea to convert the garage since the driveway is already huge and we probably won't even park in it.
I have a few concerns before even getting too carried away with this, so figured I'd get some input if anyone wants to give their 2 cents.
The garage is approx 22'x22' with a sloped roof with the height around 7.5'-8' on the outside and maybe 12' in the center. The walls inside are unfinished and it's just typical vinyl siding -> ply -> studs (no insulation) and the ceiling is just supports running from front to back (I'm guessing starting at 7.5' to 8' from slab surface to bottom of the supports.
- Is this height sufficient? I feel like if I float the floor and decouple the ceiling I'm not going to have much space left.
My idea is a single room (for now) with inside dimensions of around 17'x12' with the 17' side following the side wall and the 12' side following the rear of the garage and the other two walls freestanding. I have been considering either single stud with resilient channel or staggered studs.
- What should I do with the exterior garage walls? Insulate and resilient channel right on those? I feel like the answer is something extremely simple, but I'm really not sure!
Also, I don't need THE perfect room. I'm an electronic musician, so things like fan noise, AC, etc. really won't impact what I am doing. If vocals need to be tracked, that is something I would consider an isolation booth for, since it would actually make sense in this scenario. So my concern is more towards not annoying the neighbors. The edges of their houses are 15 yards or more from the exterior of the garage, so not a situation where they're right on top of me.
And obviously I'd want to get the acoustics right in the design which leads to another question; is there anything wrong with making the room length as large as possible? Typically I see control rooms designed within a cramped space (for the most part). I understand the design choices in a traditional studio, but like I said, I'm dealing with synths and such, so having them in a space outside of the control area just wouldn't make sense.
No exact measurements yet, but figured I'd get some advice before I get too carried away.
Garage Studio Preliminaries
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 19932.
I did find the answers on how to deal with the exterior garage walls. If I drywall and seal between the existing studs I think I may be more inclined to do a double stud wall design.
While I'm on the wall designs... would it be beneficial to add angular walls in a layout of this size? I obviously do not want the entire length tapered, but perhaps the front of the room? I'm not sure yet if I want to mount my monitors within the wall or just continue using stands. I like the mounting idea because I am clumsy and have almost tipped the stands over more than a handful of times in my current setup, but I'm not sure. I think my main concern would be what I would do if I decided to upgrade to larger monitors at some point.
I'm still researching my options for the ceiling and the flooring, but I'm going to need exact height measurements and figure out the current support layout/spacing.
What is the current status of the floor in this garage?
The floor is just a concrete slab. Not sure if it's 100% flat or has those drainage channels. The house was my late grandmother's and the garage is being used for storage while my family empties the house. West Seneca eh? This will be in sunny Lackawanna.What is the current status of the floor in this garage?
I forgot to add; it's a completely standalone structure.
ah .... LAsunny Lackawanna
There still needs to be more details posted as you get them.... but confirming that you have a concrete floor [slab] is usually very good news. Entertaining the idea of a 'floating floor' is something that you hope you you won't have to do [$$$$$$$$$$], along with plenty of researching.
Over the years, I've seem enough postings here with attempted 'floating floors' that had to be torn up and removed. [nobody happy about that].
As you get your site details together ... I recommend posting on your thread here. The Guru's here are fantastic, and will help guide you, but they can only help what they see here.
My build is a testament to the excellent guidance and advice. It was a lot of work, and they prevented me from making all kinds of mistakes [$$$$], the result ... stunning and beyond expectation.
It is amazing considering the limitations I had to work within.
Be sure to read some of the other build threads too. This place is an incredible resource that can help show solutions and innovative ideas.
Post lots of pix and floor-plans. Even in the background, others are watching. We all can appreciate the desired goal of working in a functional, great sounding room.
Best to You.
Oh yeah. I have found tons of good information already and seeing studio build progress definitely helps a ton with ideas. I need to get in there and get all the measurements.
I have been drawing up a few ideas in sketchup and may go with beefing up the 2 exterior walls that will parallel to my design and maybe resilient channel for the walls and ceiling, but still lots of research to be done. The true room inside a room double-stud design is doable, but the more I think about it, it may be overkill. I'd like to keep it quiet for the neighbors, but I'm not too worried and I definitely don't care about outside noise. I'm running direct 95% of the time. Hell, I even process my guitar with either Guitar Rig, a line 6, or a boss gt. I've even thought about drums, but truthfully, I'd get a pad kit and cheat anyway :)
A facebook friend had a neat idea for a floating floor, but not sure how viable or necessary it is. Basically had 2x6 or maybe smaller and screwed hockey pucks into the side touching the concrete floor in his basement. Then left room between them for insulation and built up the floor on top of that. The idea seems simple, but I guess I could see that actually working.
But my idea, from looking through other builds, is definitely going to be treating the external walls with 2 layers of drywall BETWEEN the existing studs with insulation over the top and then I'm thinking resilient channel with another 2 layers of drywall. So basically: Vinyl -> Plywood -> 2 layers drywall -> Insulation -> Resilient Channel or clips -> 2 Layers drywall. I could also follow similar suit with the ceiling. I still like the double studded walls, but it chews up real estate quick and probably my funds as well. And like I said, I have complete volume control, so I think I may be able to squeak by. Obviously I like to turn it up and get into it, but most of the time I'm working at a low volume anyway. And I've found in every place I've lived that the low frequencies are what I need to contain over anything else since there's a lot of 60-120hz going on in what I'm doing.
I'll share some sketches in the morning tho. People seem to like critiquing them!
Mind if I ask what type of layout you have? Home studio?
That's one of those design ideas that SEEMS reasonable ... Problem is ... it basically creates a resonating drum head. I'll let the experts fill in the details. That is a common 1st design idea that usually has to be torn out [unfortunately]. Slab concrete is one of the best surfaces if it's in good shape and resting firmly on Ma Earth. My build is a control room for mixing and mastering. After 30+ years in Professional Audio ... it is also my private sanctuary :yahoo: Due to circumstances, we are having to move to a new home that should be completed around August, where I commence on a brand new room.Basically had 2x6 or maybe smaller and screwed hockey pucks into the side touching the concrete floor in his basement. Then left room between them for insulation and built up the floor on top of that. The idea seems simple, but I guess I could see that actually working.
Yup. Like RJ said: that wont work, and would in fact make the situation WORSE, not better. Correctly floating a floor is an awful lot harder that most people think! And seldom necessary anyway. Here's why: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8173 You might want to suggest that your Facebook buddy should read through that thread as well, to understand why his idea doesn't stand a chance of working. To float a floor successfully, you need two things: a lot of mass, and a lot of math. (OK, make that three things: you also need the correct type of resilient mounting, the right amount of it, in the right thickness, cut to the right sizes, placed at the right locations, etc., etc., all of which is what the math will tell you). And the amount of mass you need is measured in hundreds of kilograms per square meter, ten times more that what you can get from a couple of sheets of plywood. Several inches of concrete is about right... - Stuart -A facebook friend had a neat idea for a floating floor, but not sure how viable or necessary it is. Basically had 2x6 or maybe smaller and screwed hockey pucks into the side touching the concrete floor in his basement. Then left room between them for insulation and built up the floor on top of that. The idea seems simple, but I guess I could see that actually working.
I got in and took some quick measurements in my small amount of time there.
So it's vinyl siding, particle board, then 2x4 studs. From the inner walls of the particle board, it's 21' 1.5" x 21' 1.5" square. From the surface of the concrete floor to the bottom of the 2x6 supports is 7' 2.5".
The walls are all 2x4 with 16 on center. This isn't true around the doors and windows, but mostly true. The roof peaks on center and slopes to the sides with supports 24 on center running from the peak to the sides. There is overhang so they're running above the walls on my picture. There are a few 2x6 supports running across, but the spacing is totally bizarre. The front and back also have one (or 2x4's on their side), but I was having a hard time putting them in the image.
My main problems are going to be the windows, garage door, and weird support spacing. I'm definitely going to keep the garage door, but I'm thinking I will attach it to the front interior walls and remove the extra hardware. And then remove the windows or box them in.
Definitely some good info! I initially thought the idea was clever until I read more into it. Plus, I'd never try something out of the norm without getting feedback. Unfortunately my pockets aren't deep enough for trial and error. :cry: I don't have much height to work with either, so I'm not sure if floating would even be a good idea at all. Thanks!Yup. Like RJ said: that wont work, and would in fact make the situation WORSE, not better. Correctly floating a floor is an awful lot harder that most people think! And seldom necessary anyway. Here's why: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8173 You might want to suggest that your Facebook buddy should read through that thread as well, to understand why his idea doesn't stand a chance of working. To float a floor successfully, you need two things: a lot of mass, and a lot of math. (OK, make that three things: you also need the correct type of resilient mounting, the right amount of it, in the right thickness, cut to the right sizes, placed at the right locations, etc., etc., all of which is what the math will tell you). And the amount of mass you need is measured in hundreds of kilograms per square meter, ten times more that what you can get from a couple of sheets of plywood. Several inches of concrete is about right... - Stuart -A facebook friend had a neat idea for a floating floor, but not sure how viable or necessary it is. Basically had 2x6 or maybe smaller and screwed hockey pucks into the side touching the concrete floor in his basement. Then left room between them for insulation and built up the floor on top of that. The idea seems simple, but I guess I could see that actually working.
This is my idea, but I'm up against 2 windows this way and if I turn it I'm up against 1 window and the garage door. Would have an additional wall on the bottom for double stud design.
Not sure!
Slowly getting my ideas together, but always some more questions.
I've increased the room width to 13' and going to try and keep the max length of around 20' (20' 4.5" my plans). Ceiling would still be approx 7'.
I am thinking about connecting bottom (in the image) outer wall directly to the existing structure. I think this would make the garage door less of an issue. I still plan on permanently fixing it to the structure and sealing it, but wont need to focus so much attention on that wall.
My questions now are in regards to the 38% listening position. Due to the amount of gear that I NEED (that's what I tell the significant other at least), my initial idea was to position myself as close to front wall as possible - with some room between the wall and the desk. I have the soffits at 45 in this design.
- I've read that this is not optimal, but can this work? What would I need to consider?
Optionally, I could split the room in 2, but truthfully, if I have to get up and go into another room to access equipment, it's not going to get used much because I will take the lazy approach and just load a VST instead. So I'm having some conflict with personal preference/workflow and design theory.
Also, would splayed walls be a benefit in this design or better of sticking with rectangles? I'm not sure if I could achieve a proper angle while still maintaining enough open space for equipment.
- Is it possible to use a splayed wall say for 30-40 percent of the length?
Thanks!!
The 38% listening position "rule" isn't a rule at all. It's just a good starting point, but it isn't written in stone. You can change it a bit if you need to, as long as you stay away from the "bad" points at 25% and 50%. Also, 45° is OK, but it's about as far as you want to go. "Standard" is 30°, and you can go a bit less than that too, if you have to for a very long, thin room. So anywhere in that range, say 25° to 45° is OK, but try to stay away from the extremes if you can.My questions now are in regards to the 38% listening position. Due to the amount of gear that I NEED (that's what I tell the significant other at least), my initial idea was to position myself as close to front wall as possible - with some room between the wall and the desk. I have the soffits at 45 in this design. - I've read that this is not optimal, but can this work? What would I need to consider?
I don't think the room is big enough for that.Optionally, I could split the room in 2,
Keep it basically rectangular, then add splayed sections needed to get the RFZ right.Also, would splayed walls be a benefit in this design or better of sticking with rectangles?
Yup! You only need to splay the front part of the side walls, and only far enough back to ensure that the RFZ is properly established. So you need to go maybe as far back as the mix position, maximum. - Stuart -- Is it possible to use a splayed wall say for 30-40 percent of the length?
So I have started and running into some snags and would love a little help.
Initially I wasn't basing the room off of any recommended ratios and feared it would end up being hard to properly treat. So I resized the room to fit into a 1:1.6:2.33 ratio giving 16.74688' x 11.5' x 7.1875' from inside drywall faces (2x5/8).
In the sketchup, the white walls are existing structure with 1 layer of 5/8" drywall between the studs (sealed with green glue sealant). This is only being done on the areas north (per sketch) of the yellow wall. The brown walls will be the interior room and the green represents 2 layers of 5/8" drywall (keeping in mind there will be layers within the white walls).
Problems/Concerns:
- The existing structure studs are 2x4, so I have 3.5" to fit drywall into. I initially wanted to do 2 layers of 5/8 between existing studs, but I don't know if that would leave enough room for insulation. 3.5 - 1.25 (2 layers) = 2.25" - Is this enough for insulation?
- The air gap between the yellow wall and brown was is 3" on the width sides and 2" in the front (west side). The 3" was done on the sides because the yellow wall needs to be in this position and gave me the correct ratio for the width. The 2" front wall is just because (no real reason). Should I shrink the front to 1" gap? (more on this in next point).
- I'm not sure how to deal with the length. As you can see the back wall of the room is the inner leaf and the white wall is acting as outer leaf, but there is a gap of a little over 3.5' there. I feel like I should try and utilize this space, but the width is very small, so I'd love suggestions.
Assuming you have distance between the bottom plates of the framing, yes you will have enough. As long as the insulation isn't compressed in so much that it creates a bridge or short circuits the isolation you will be OK.Problems/Concerns: - The existing structure studs are 2x4, so I have 3.5" to fit drywall into. I initially wanted to do 2 layers of 5/8 between existing studs, but I don't know if that would leave enough room for insulation. 3.5 - 1.25 (2 layers) = 2.25" - Is this enough for insulation?
No sir.Move your west wall starting position to match the rest at 3", and allow the East wall to move into the open cavity to maintain your wanted ratios. Essentially you just move the entire foot print of the framing (looking at the above picture) left to right.- The air gap between the yellow wall and brown was is 3" on the width sides and 2" in the front (west side). The 3" was done on the sides because the yellow wall needs to be in this position and gave me the correct ratio for the width. The 2" front wall is just because (no real reason). Should I shrink the front to 1" gap? (more on this in next point).
Either develop a machine or storage room or a deep bass trap area. With small rooms the modes are the acoustics as they say, so low frequency is going to be an issue anyway. Either option will help. If you do create an actual room you should install a solid core door with proper seals to ensure good isolation and no rattles. Also you have to consider that if you choose to make this an active room you may well need to provide air in/out if nothing more than to extract humidity from the small room, ESpecially if it becomes a machine room of some sort that will generate heat.- I'm not sure how to deal with the length. As you can see the back wall of the room is the inner leaf and the white wall is acting as outer leaf, but there is a gap of a little over 3.5' there. I feel like I should try and utilize this space, but the width is very small, so I'd love suggestions.
I am really wondering how bad it would be if I extended the length. I would royally screw up the ratio, but is it fixable? I'm going to attach two pictures. One of what I'm talking about. Moving the east wall back for 3" air gap against the exterior. Again, this totally messes with the ratio, but it is definitely more ideal for me. The second picture is how I want to approach the acoustic treatment (not my picture, but just for reference).
If you look at the approach to treatment I am going to lose a lot of real-estate within the room and that ends up being a huge problem. The main problem is that I DIY and then hoard too much gear (who doesn't), so I have a lot of pieces to try and cram in a room. Lets say I basically FILLED an 11x11 room before starting this project and that was with the listening position at like 10%.
Just seems like my options for lengths are pretty minimal when trying to stick with any recommended ratios. I ended up downloading a giant spreadsheet and just ran the height through about 300 ratios and all of them were so-so.
My height is pretty much maxed at 7.1875'. I can go lower, but add in track lighting and I'll be smacking my head. Then on the width I probably have 12' max. There is room in the garage, but I'm limited to the yellow wall. It's actually placed in such a way that it is under a ceiling joist and allows me to still open the garage door. I'm up north, need somewhere to put the snow blower and shovels.
I'd have to do the math, but I wouldn't mind something like 20' x 12' x 7.1875' (lwh) or possible building a vocal booth in one of the back corners, but I don't want to completely mess up the acoustics.
As another option you may want to consider Johns' Inside out wall in your overhead area. The existing joist may have to be supported within the existing room to allow for the additional ceiling load but you would not lose any head room and you would gain the isolation plus a few alternatives in room finish options.
I will look that up. I don't believe I'm familiar with that. - is this having the drywall between the joists/studs? The ceiling is a dicey situation. In my picture (imagine)... the ceiling joists are 2x6's - 16" OC - running from east to west. My plan was to add plywood on top or between the joists and then secure drywall between the joists + insulation then use resilient channel to isolate. Due to the length of the room, my options are rather limited. I thought about bringing the interior walls down an inch or so and running joists between the existing joists for isolation, but then I'm trying to span 16-20'. If I run them north to south I'm having to put them under the existing joists and having a height of 6' or less. At this stage, I'm really trying to figure out if I can get away with the extended length of the room without crippling myself once it comes to treatment.As another option you may want to consider Johns' Inside out wall in your overhead area. The existing joist may have to be supported within the existing room to allow for the additional ceiling load but you would not lose any head room and you would gain the isolation plus a few alternatives in room finish options.
One thing that is going to govern what you can and what you cannot do is budget. Do you have one (budget) and are you willing to place some of that budget into remodeling the existing framing so as to achieve a higher headroom? It can be done be comes at a financial cost to you.
Also, you have to start considering HVAC and electrical. Worrying about ratios will stop you dead in your tracks and there are so many other things left to consider that want to do that :)
It is nothing short of what John L Sayers (the owner of this forum..I cannot believe you do not know that after you being here since 2008) developed to overcome small enclosures while still maintaining isolation and smooth room response. Search this site, it's here.I will look that up. I don't believe I'm familiar with that. - is this having the drywall between the joists/studs?
I don't have a budget set in stone. I have rough ideas, but this project has been moving slowly over time (since it's mainly myself doing the work), so I have been setting aside cash for materials as I get paid for my day-job. So I don't want to say my budget is unlimited, but it's consistent. I AM, however, trying to keep this project DIY (as much as possible at least), so remodeling existing framing or anything too drastic is probably off the table. The HVAC and electrical doesn't bother me too much. Luckily I have resources (people) available for both of those should I need help. Granted their not attuned to acoustic environments, but that is something I can oversee. The reason I'm so stuck up on ratio topic is really because this is the point of no return (foundation of what's to come). I did run the numbers if I extended the room and ended up with 20' 2 1/2" x 11 8" x 7.1875' (using 2" air gap)One thing that is going to govern what you can and what you cannot do is budget. Do you have one (budget) and are you willing to place some of that budget into remodeling the existing framing so as to achieve a higher headroom? It can be done be comes at a financial cost to you. Also, you have to start considering HVAC and electrical. Worrying about ratios will stop you dead in your tracks and there are so many other things left to consider that want to do that :)
Oh! I got it! I feel like resilient channel would allow me to keep more headroom (but has me relying on the existing joists). It is a really good idea though. I've read tons on here too and never noticed that.It is nothing short of what John L Sayers (the owner of this forum..I cannot believe you do not know that after you being here since 2008) developed to overcome small enclosures while still maintaining isolation and smooth room response. Search this site, it's here.I will look that up. I don't believe I'm familiar with that. - is this having the drywall between the joists/studs?