Salem Oregon conference center studio

Wow. That looks unreal. I've never used veneer before. I'm scared but I've watched a lot of videos about doing it. Care to document your process for the last module? Thanks! Greg

I'm scared but I've watched a lot of videos about doing it. Care to document your process for the last module?

Yes, I am planning on a step-by-step documentation. I worked on it the last two evenings and am taking photos. I will post soon. I have the 3rd and last section veneered as of tonight. Next comes a little trimming, then light sanding then 3 coats of finish, then assembly and installation. It's not hard, but I will share a few things to watch for. (I used to repair antiques in a refinishing shop many years ago while going to college for electronics.) Today I also managed to get most of the insulating behind the trap done before I ran out of fiberglass R30 insulation. It is nearly to the ceiling now. Here are a couple of photos detailing what I ended up deciding to do: -Ron

The bass trap is installed completely now (except trim). So glad!!! :wink:

I want to be a “man of my word” by fulfilling the promise I made to Greg to explain the process of veneering and a little bit about the bass trap, in hopes that it could be of help to others. I hope this isn’t too elaborate! After picking 2x lumber for straightness and rounded edges, I start by picking the best edge for the front that will be veneered. To make sure it would have a good corner for bending veneer around, I routed the edge to a 3/16” radius. If I had it to do again, I would go with ¼” radius. Rolling the birch veneer over the 3/16” edge was pushing it a little bit too tight and I got a few spots that were trying to split. I cut a whole bunch of ¼” spacers and spray painted the edges with flat black so they wouldn’t be visible inside the Hemholtz slots. Then cut each board to length and painted the sides black. The idea is that I didn’t want the end of the veneer to show in the slot and black has a way of making it “invisible”. I used 2 ½ sheets of birch veneer in this bass trap (4’ x 8’ sheets). I calculated the widths of the veneer strips to allow 1” depth penetration into the slats and ½” penetration between boards with no slats. This meant I had to cut two widths: 3” and 5” because some boards are offset by 2" deep. I drew center lines on the edge of each board and a corresponding alignment line on each strip of veneer, so the overlap would come out right. Also, I marked and taped off the areas on each board where the contact cement would go. I trained my young assistant to glue a few boards and veneer strips at a time (while promising his parents to be practicing social distancing and taking COVID-19 precautions). :wink: Make sure a medium-thick layer of glue is applied. The boards and the veneer can absorb the glue and it can get too dry. If that happens, you may have veneer coming loose later and will have pains trying to repair it. I carefully labeled each board and strip pair and kept track. The overlap is different from piece to piece and it gets confusing to keep track. Give the contact adhesive about 20 to 30 minutes to dry to the point that it is pretty tacky/dry. When placing the veneer, it is important to get it right the first time, since the contact cement isn’t very forgiving and wants to stick immediately (of course). Back in the day, I used to lay out a bunch of dowels across a glued up table top and carefully placed the veneer sheet on the dowels. Then I could align the veneer up and start pressing it down from the middle working outward while pulling the dowels away. In this project, I have board EDGES – a bit different. After scrounging around for a method, I found a big coil of #4 insulated wire and cut a whole bunch of pieces and shaped them to go over the edge and placed them like this (the board is glued and ready): Then, with help from my assistant, we laid the strip over the board and lined up the alignment marks: Starting from the middle, working toward the ends, I press the veneer down on the edge while sliding the green wire spacers aside until the whole strip is down (while my assistant is keeping his end in alignment). The next step is to take a piece of 2x4 block with a “friendly” rounded edge and press firmly up and down the veneer with a lot of weight to get it firmly tacked down. Then carefully start forming it around the edge to the sides with the block, almost like ironing. Put a lot of good pressure to make sure it’s tacked down. Next, trim the ends with a razor knife and sand the trimmed ends slightly to make them round and smooth, so they don’t “catch” and tear. Briefly sand the veneer with an orbital sander and then block sand by hand. Be brief, because it is easy to sand right through the veneer. Sanding makes all the difference in the world to the look of the finish later. It brings out the beauty of the grain. I learned that working in a furniture refinishing shop. I finished by brushing with 3 coats of oil based spar urethane in this case because it turns a little yellow. I wanted the “golden” color that looks good on birch. Sand between coats with 400 grit and wipe down with a tack cloth. It really helps to smooth out the finish that way. After that came the task to assemble each of three sections, dealing with a bit of warps and twists and tolerances that would add up as I assembled 40 boards from left to right. Here is a partially-assembled section. By the third section, I was getting the hang of it!

This is so valuable. Thank you so much!!! Greg

This is so valuable. Thank you so much!!!

Glad it is helpful! I will be posting again soon. Got a bunch of stuff done over the last 4 1/2-day weekend. -Ron

Been running in circles but found time to install a large portion of the acoustic hangers in the front soffit area. I came to a stopping spot because the shelf below the window has to be replaced first. The present one was rejected by the lady in charge of interior decorating. It seems my choice of shelving didn't jive with her plans. :lol: The hangers below the shelf actually hang from the shelf, so I have to wait until the new shelf arrives. I've been ringing the room a few times and am seeing differences in each step. I hope to post the REW data when I ring it one more time after the rest of the hangers arrive. The left and right speaker sections were first lined with 3" Roxul and the middle section walls are lined with 2" of Knauf ECOSE compressed fiberglass, same as what the hangers use. The middle of the hangers are 1/2" Homasote. Also, my electrician friend volunteered to do the fun part and wired up and mounted the outboard mic connection enclosures. I was hoping to get to do that, but oh well.... He does great work, though.

Just wondering how things are going? I am also hoping you might be able to post a few more details of your soffit build? Thanks! Kevin

Hi Kevin, My profuse apologies for not answering for over a month! I have been off of the forum and off of the project for a couple of months, trying to retire (business transitions weren't smooth) and house renovations (neglected because of the studio) that wouldn't wait. I now have a retirement income, medical coverage, a new - dry rot free roof, new siding & trim face-lifts, new windows, new paint, new gutters new garage door & opener and.... a new mailbox! :roll: :lol: As for the studio, I got all of the acoustic hangers installed on the front soffit! :yahoo: That went pretty smoothly..... until I rang the room: Something was wrong with the right monitor! It had no highs. The tweeter was blown! Long story, but it had been repaired once in the past. I realized it was a foolish idea to build a custom-fitted soffit around a 23-year-old obsolete monitor set with irreplaceable components! They are no longer made and it seems that nobody out there can get parts for these any more. Miraculously, someone traded in one last week at the local music store and they called me and I bought a 3rd monitor for $60, just to get the tweeter. This turned out to be a "blessing in disguise" because it would be TWICE the work to replace it if the whole soffit was covered up and finished! I am now (even tonight) beginning a search for new monitors and will have to rebuild the suspension apparatus to fit it. The whole assembly has to fit into a tight space in the existing soffit, but I'm confident it can be done. Glad it happened NOW rather than later! Then there's the fire and smoke issue! You undoubtedly heard about the west-coast fires. East of Salem, where I live, one of the biggest fires is raging and we've had over a week of air quality off the charts. Fortunately my house and the studio location are not threatened, but I have family and friends that were in danger. Here's what the sky looked like on an otherwise clear afternoon on the 9th: The Air Quality Index has been off the charts for a lot of the week. Right now it is at 413. The scale goes to 500. We had a 544 day last week! If you have any specific questions, let me know. I'll try to be better at checking in more often!

Thanks for the post. I know how you feel about choosing a monitor, I took a gamble and bought a used pair of adam A8X, so far so good. But i also have to remove my front baffle in order to adjust the high/low shelfs ... which is what I am in process of doing now... which is not easy by yourself... these baffles weigh close to 100lbs, (glued 3/4 ply + 1 " mdf) my neighbors assited me yesterday, i made a few adjustments and still need further tweeking. have you been able to re-measure the room? just curious to see what type of results your getting. I'm honestly a bit dissapointed in my results so far, I have a lot of variability and 2 room modes that I'm not sure what to do with... glad your at least safe from the fire danger, and i hope you (the entire area) gets some relief soon from the fire and smoke. cheers, kevin

glad your at least safe from the fire danger, and i hope you (the entire area) gets some relief soon from the fire and smoke.

Thanks Kevin, The fires are pretty much done and the highways over the pass have reopened. The rains were a huge help. Skies are clear and beautiful. Just mopping up now. Concern is now with erosion. This is what happens when the government ties the hands of the forestry department so they cannot maintain the forest properly and it builds up layers of "kindling" ready to go up with the first lightening strike and wind storm. :roll:

have you been able to re-measure the room? just curious to see what type of results your getting.

I rang the room after repairing the tweeter. I need to remember how to post the results. Speakers are back out of the soffit now. I ordered a set of Adam AX7 from Guitar Center, but only ONE arrived! The 2nd one is on backorder - expected around Nov 1. I haven't even powered up the single AX7 yet. In the meantime, I'm working on building the overhead cloud. Now that I'm getting into the acoustic treatment phase of the studio, I'm in the scariest part. I really don't know much about interpreting the REW results and am hoping that I can get help from this forum with that. :wink: Looking at the waterfall graphs (the one that makes most sense to me), I can see the decay across the range has greatly reduced after the soffit treatment and the rear bass trap, but I believe I am seeing a lot of comb filter effects. I'll try to get it posted soon. Cheers, Ron

Since I haven’t posted since October, there is a lot to update. I am at the point that ¾ of the acoustics are installed in the control room and am expecting the new console desk to arrive in five days! After this update, I have some questions about my RFZ panels that I will post. I was able to successfully alter the speaker suspension apparatus to accommodate the replacement monitor speakers (Replaced obsolete Roland DS-90A with Adam Ax7). Glad I didn’t have to rebuild it! After packing some Roxul alongside the monitor speakers (with ample ventilation path behind), the completed soffit speaker baffles were installed. Made of ¾” birch plywood with ¾” hardy-backer concrete board glued behind (had to use a ¼” layer and a ½” layer to get ¾”). Each baffle weighed 60 pounds. Solid birch trim was placed throughout the front soffit and rear bass trap. My apologies for some of the photo quality, due to a damaged phone camera. Next came the nine grill frames in the front soffit, covered with fabric from Guiliford of Main (series FR701). This stuff is REALLY expensive (~$19/yard and 65” wide)! I have my skepticism whether it is really necessary to use this fabric, rather than less-expensive breathable cloth, however it is a done deal! Next came the overhead cloud assembly. Frame made out of solid birch and birch plywood. 2” of Knauf Ecose rigid fiberglass was used in the panel inserts, also covered with Guiliford of Main FR701. I also glued 1/8” salvaged plywood onto the back to allow us to staple the fabric to. An LED light bar was incorporated into the cloud. The rear loveseat couch was finally put in place on the raised pedestal, which allows the observer to see over the sound engineer directly in front (otherwise, they would be staring at the engineer’s shoulder blades). Two days ago, I installed superchunk-style bass traps in the left and right corners of the control room. No fabric installed just yet. Next, as far as acoustics go, will be my two RFZ panels on the left and right walls in the first reflection point (These are angled walls, since I have a corner control room design). With every new addition, I rang the room (REW) to see what effect it had. That’s my weakest point of understanding, but the waterfall graphs seem to be the easiest to understand for me. I will post my questions regarding that after this update. On Friday, April 16th, the console desk is due to arrive. At that point we plan to start wiring up the control room side of the mic, headphone, speaker and MIDI cables going out to the three sound rooms. Things are about to get crazy as the “natives are getting restless” and they’ve just about depleted their patience. Can’t blame them. It’s been going on for 8 years! I am getting more help with organization and continue to work hard to keep them from rushing into the wrong decisions. Hope you all find this helpful. Your comments and questions are welcome. I’m here to learn! -Ron

As I mentioned today, in my update, I am about to build the right and left RFZ panels onto the tapered side walls and have questions as to what materials to use. I have immediate options to build a frame and fill it either with 3 inches of Roxul Safe-n-Sound or with Knauf Ecose rigid fiberglass – 2 or 3 inches. I would like to know what is recommended in my case? For illustration, here are two waterfall graphs – one from September 2019 in an empty control room and the other from the present. I see what looks like a problem area between 100Hz and 200Hz. I’m hoping that the RFZ panels might help with this section. REW ring of empty room Sep 26, 2019: REW ring of April 9, 2021: Also, I am wondering if the overall peaks and valleys throughout are expected or is it too much comb filtering going on? Here is a view of the rear of the control room with the cloud and the whole front end hidden from view (except for the speakers). The RFZ panels (colored purple for reference) go in here according to reflected angles. Also, I am wondering if more panels might be needed, for example, like this (colored yellow for reference)? Here is a link to my April 9th ring of the room without these panels installed yet. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XTTc8MnTJh1Ahb67-81Eru5eFRZMzIkW/view?usp=sharing I would appreciate any seasoned advice that I can get. This is the scariest part of the whole project. Thanks, Ron

Roxul 4"

Roxul 4"

Thanks Gullfo. Is there anyone else who wants to answer some more of my questions from my last post and/or take a look at my posted data and advise? I am wondering if the overall peaks and valleys throughout are expected or is it too much comb filtering going on? To my eye, the latest waterfall diagram looks WAY better, but I'm not sure if I'm home yet. Also perplexed with the anomalies between 100Hz and 200Hz. Any advice is welcome. Wouldn't mind any encouragements either! :D

as a note: the scariest part is the construction. treating the room is easy because you can readily adjust the treatments. once the construction is completed, you're left with the results of that work and treatment effectiveness will be determined on the design and construction. given a small space and nearly square room, expect a lot of treatment needed. however - start with speaker placement and listening position first. as good as it can be? i like to use a "long piano" type midi sequence to place each sine-wave note from A0-A10 for two seconds each to determine ultimately what notes are being impacted. it seems easier to understand than a pure sweep once you've solved the major bumps. once positions are good - now treat first reflections - sides, top, and back. best to do this without a desk in the room. then when you've go those covered - bring in the desk. ideally the top of the desk is very small and steeply angled to reflections from the desk are minimal. speakers on stands - reflections from the back of the desk and the "cavity" from the desk-front wall will often be a problem space - so deep absorption, resonators, etc can be effective there. a couple thoughts.

Thanks Gullfo for your sincere efforts to advise and encourage. I appreciate that. It appears though, that you are not familiar with my design and don’t realize that most of what you said has been already done. Please refer to my update, prior to my questions. Mostly what I’m asking is help with the REW data and advice on how it looks, but so far it appears that nobody has looked at the data that I placed in the link.

given a small space and nearly square room,

I would call it closer to triangle. Actually, it’s more like 5-sided. It is a corner control room design. I first saw the concept on John’s original manual many years ago. Soundman2020 helped me re-think the room shape back in July 3, 2016 (see posts on page 2) when I tweaked the side walls to eliminate my doors with glass being smack dab in the middle of the first reflection. I realized then that I ACCIDENTALLY copied Rod Gervais’ design in his book. Here is a birds-eye diagram of the current state of the control room (minus the cloud for visibility)

however - start with speaker placement and listening position first.

Sweet spot is 38% back from the front wall and the speakers focus is 16” behind that. Did that in 2016 too. The speakers are soffit-mounted and the front soffit is filled with hanging bass traps. The front soffit baffles are ¾” birch plywood with ¾ of backer board behind. The soffit and front end acoustics are complete.

once positions are good - now treat first reflections - sides, top, and back. best to do this without a desk in the room. then when you've go those covered - bring in the desk. ideally the top of the desk is very small and steeply angled to reflections from the desk are minimal. speakers on stands - reflections from the back of the desk and the "cavity" from the desk-front wall will often be a problem space - so deep absorption, resonators, etc can be effective there.

The 700-pound rear bass trap design was directly provided by John Sayers, using his hemholtz trap design. The overhead cloud is in place. The Desk is in place and is currently getting wired. The rear desk acoustic panels were completed 2 hours ago and will be installed tomorrow. What’s left is my side treatments, hence my original questions about materials. Unfortunately, there wasn’t time to get those panels in before the desk arrived. It’s just one of those things. I simply want to know if my REW data looks appropriate or not and what I may want to do in the 100Hz to 200Hz range. Thanks and Best Regards, -Ron

thanks for updating. i had tried to access your REW link but it's not generally accessible and is asking me to request access.

i had tried to access your REW link but it's not generally accessible and is asking me to request access.

Oops! :oops: Sorry about that! I granted access for anyone with the link. Please try again! Thanks! Ron