Basement Tracking and Mixing Studio

Hi! First post here… I guess I’m the guy that did everything wrong and then found this forum. :roll: I am about a third of the way (?) through building my basement man cave studio. So far, I have framed the walls over Insulpink foam insulation glued to the concrete, insulated with Roxul, and put up drywall (two layers on ceiling). I have a little more mudding to do and I’m halfway through hanging doors. I have a concrete floor I’m planning to stain with a water based stain. Here are the details: • One larger room intended for tracking guitars, vocals AND mixing. This is the priority. • A smaller room that will only be used for recording drums or possibly a live band if I am working with others (which would be rarely). • Sound proofing was not a big priority as mainly it will be just me playing guitar and surprisingly, I don’t play that loud. I made some effort but didn’t go crazy at all. • This might only be my studio for the next 5 or 6 years then we may move (or not). I’ll need to build it so potential buyers would be able to use it as a media, play, office, gym room, torture chamber… you get the idea. • I would like it to sound reasonably good and work well for mixing. Just from looking through a few posts here, I wish I didn’t drywall and just put up material over the Roxul and hung slats. It was dead and I could have added reflection creatively. Now, I have to build or buy a lot of bass traps. The design of the closets would have made great bass traps. Oh well… like I said, I will need to sell the home at some point and drywall will please the average buyer. Moving on. My first round of simple questions (I’m sure there will be many more): 1. Is the mixing desk and listening position in about the optimum place for the shape of the room? Another option would be on the right side next to the door with the control room window (under the bulkhead for the duct). Keep in mind there will be multiple guitar cabs in the room (like everywhere). 2. Do you think the room shape and size will work out? Too late to change but don’t worry about hurting my feelings, I’d like to hear opinions. That’s it for now. Here’s the diagram:

Hi there "MarcoR", and welcome! :)

I guess I’m the guy that did everything wrong and then found this forum.

Don't worry! You aren't the first person to do that, and I'm darn sure you wont be the last! It happens all the time...

I have framed the walls over Insulpink foam insulation glued to the concrete,

Umm... you glued your insulation to the concrete walls? :shock: :roll: :!: I guess you already figured out that that wasn't a good idea. The way you are supposed to do it, is with impaling clips:

I have a concrete floor I’m planning to stain with a water based stain.

Excellent! When you said you had done everything wrong, I was half expecting you would say that you floated your floor... :)

• A smaller room that will only be used for recording drums or possibly a live band • Sound proofing was not a big priority

Ummmm... those two statements don't go together: If you are going to track drums and full bands, then I don't understand why you wouldn't want to isolate. drums come in at around 115 dB, and a full band is closer to 120. You live in a residential area, I presume, and most noise regulations these days specify ridiculously low limits, such as 45 dB. So you'd need something like 70 dB of isolation to comply with your legal obligations: Are you getting that already, from the existing structure?

1. Is the mixing desk and listening position in about the optimum place for the shape of the room?

The problem isn't the desk: it is the room. It is not symmetrical, and symmetry is critical. The angled closet thing on the right is much larger than the one on the left. In fact, there is no orientation inside that room where you can get symmetry, and without symmetry you are up the proverbial creek without the proverbial paddle! You need to figure out some way of fixing what you already did so that you can get symmetry for your room. At the very least, the front half of the room must be symmetrical. the back isn't quite so critical, but the front is.

2. Do you think the room shape and size will work out?

No. Sorry: that's just the way it is.

Too late to change but don’t worry about hurting my feelings,

I'm glad you said that about not worrying about hurting feelings, because what I need to say is probably going to do just that: Unless you are prepared to change the room, there is no way it is going to work. You cannot have it both ways: either you fix it and get a room that works, or leave it like it is and get one that doesn't work. There aren't any other options, unfortunately.... Acoustics is governed by the laws of physics, and you can't change those by wishing them away. They apply to your room just the same as they apply to all rooms. Those laws place limitations on what you can accomplish in any given room. You are setting impossible goals that the laws of physics will not allow you to reach with the room in its current shape. If you change the shape, then you can use the laws of physics to your advantage, but if not then you are stuck with their limitations. I wish I had better news for you, but that's just the sad, hard truth. - Stuart -

Hi Stuart! Thanks for replying so quickly!

Soundman2020 wrote:

I have framed the walls over Insulpink foam insulation glued to the concrete,

Umm... you glued your insulation to the concrete walls? :shock: :roll: :!: I guess you already figured out that that wasn't a good idea. The way you are supposed to do it, is with impaling clips:

This was the pink 1/2 styrofoam board insulation not rigid fiberglass. I did it the way I saw it done on Holmes on Homes. :D

Soundman2020 wrote:

• A smaller room that will only be used for recording drums or possibly a live band • Sound proofing was not a big priority

Ummmm... those two statements don't go together: If you are going to track drums and full bands, then I don't understand why you wouldn't want to isolate. drums come in at around 115 dB, and a full band is closer to 120. You live in a residential area, I presume, and most noise regulations these days specify ridiculously low limits, such as 45 dB. So you'd need something like 70 dB of isolation to comply with your legal obligations: Are you getting that already, from the existing structure?

This next statement may disqualify me from receiving further help but, the reality for me is I don’t have as much free time to work on this and do it properly as I wish I did. That said, I may be able to address the issue of isolation between rooms when I deal with the room shape. As far as noise outside, I could bang on the drums as loud as I wanted before any of the drywall or insulation went up without much if anything being heard outside. The neighbors aren’t very close either so that’s one good thing! As far as sound coming from the upstairs into the studio, there was a huge improvement after the insulation and drywall (perfectly acceptable for electric guitar, borderline if I were recording a triangle ping).

Soundman2020 wrote:

1. Is the mixing desk and listening position in about the optimum place for the shape of the room?

The problem isn't the desk: it is the room. It is not symmetrical, and symmetry is critical. The angled closet thing on the right is much larger than the one on the left. In fact, there is no orientation inside that room where you can get symmetry, and without symmetry you are up the proverbial creek without the proverbial paddle! You need to figure out some way of fixing what you already did so that you can get symmetry for your room. At the very least, the front half of the room must be symmetrical. the back isn't quite so critical, but the front is.

2. Do you think the room shape and size will work out?

No. Sorry: that's just the way it is.

Too late to change but don’t worry about hurting my feelings,

I'm glad you said that about not worrying about hurting feelings, because what I need to say is probably going to do just that: Unless you are prepared to change the room, there is no way it is going to work. You cannot have it both ways: either you fix it and get a room that works, or leave it like it is and get one that doesn't work. There aren't any other options, unfortunately.... Acoustics is governed by the laws of physics, and you can't change those by wishing them away. They apply to your room just the same as they apply to all rooms. Those laws place limitations on what you can accomplish in any given room. You are setting impossible goals that the laws of physics will not allow you to reach with the room in its current shape. If you change the shape, then you can use the laws of physics to your advantage, but if not then you are stuck with their limitations. I wish I had better news for you, but that's just the sad, hard truth.

Well, of course I’m a little disappointed but I have a few ideas on how it may be improved that may not be too painful. I suppose the most obvious fix would be to put up a wall on the duct bulkhead line. This would give me a rectangular room with even ceiling height and make the angled closets symmetrical. It would also be an opportunity to have better isolation between the rooms. Would the rectangle be too long? I know square is bad. So the new dimensions would be 18’ long, 10’ 7” wide and 7’ 8” height. Oh please let that turn out to be an acceptable room mode ratio. I can’t download the room mode calculator here at work so I will do that when I get home. If I was to put up a wall, what do I need to consider with the drywall being hung already? Do I need to decouple the new wall from the ceiling in some way? At the moment, none of the doors are hung for the CE closet or the door separating the two rooms. If I put up a new wall, I would eliminate the closet doors completely as I have access from the other side (I'd keep it angled to be symmetrical with the left side). That would actually save some work and I would have far better isolation. Thoughts? <talkingmyselfoutofdelayingtheprocess> The room feels like a nice size and I would hate to lose the space; that section under the duct was where I planned to hang the guitars. My wife keeps reminding me that when we build our dream home, I can build my studio the way I want and what we have done so far in the basement will be great for resale (every other house has a finished basement). I'm not trying to produce world class mixes, I just want to do gear demo videos and record my original music. At what point do I say this is fine at my level and expectations. Will I notice the effort in the end? Will the average guitar nerd listening to my demos even care? </talkingmyselfoutofdelayingtheprocess> Thanks again and if there are any other suggestions on how I may me able to improve the project before I get too far to turn around, please let me know! Marco

This was the pink 1/2 styrofoam board insulation

:shock: OK, so you were right when you said you had done so many things wrong! :) Not trying to "rub it in", just adding this comment for those who find your thread in the future: Styrofoam has no useful acoustic properties at all. It is great as thermal insulation, yes, but does nothing at all acoustically. It is closed-cell foam, and therefore air cannot penetrate into it. If air cannot get in, then neither can sound. The type of insulation that works for acoustic absorption (fiberglass, mineral wool, acoustic foam, etc.) is more correctly called "open cell fibrous absorption", because at the microscopic level it is made up of numerous tiny flexible fibers separated from each other only by air. If you blow into one side of such material, the air moves through and out the other side. Since "sound" is basically just vibrating air molecules, the sound waves can move through the entire thickness of the material, and whenever a vibrating molecule happens to encounter a fiber, it causes that fiber to move and flex. That does "work" on the fiber (in the physics sense of "work") using up energy. The fiber absorbs some of the sound energy and turns it into low-grade heat energy, which is dissipated within the material itself, and also within the air, to a certain extent. Since there are millions of fibers, there are millions of collisions between vibrating air molecules and the fibers, so fibrous absorption is very efficient at removing some of the energy in the sound as it passes through the panel. However, with closed-cell materials, such as styrofoam, there is no way for any of the above to happen. There is no way for the sound waves to move through the material causing fibers to vibrate, so there is no way for it to absorb sound energy. Styrofoam and other closed-cell insulation has no acoustic uses.

I did it the way I saw it done on Holmes on Homes.

I bet they weren't building a studio! :)

This next statement may disqualify me from receiving further help

Never! It's actually pretty hard to get disqualified from getting help here on the forum! The only certain way of doing that is to spam the forum, trying to hawk some type of product or service. But folks who really are here for help will very likely get it, unless they are extremely rude to the moderators. Not wanting to follow advice won't get you disqualified, that's for sure.

As far as noise outside, I could bang on the drums as loud as I wanted before any of the drywall or insulation went up without much if anything being heard outside

Great! So I'd hazard a guess and say that this is a fully underground basement, not a walk-out style basement? You are one of the lucky few, which is good.

I suppose the most obvious fix would be to put up a wall on the duct bulkhead line.

That would make sense, yes.

This would give me a rectangular room with even ceiling height and make the angled closets symmetrical.

The angled closet thingies are still not doing you any favors in this scenario, since they are taking up the space where you really need to have abundant bass trapping, but at least you'd solve the symmetry problem, which is the big issue here.

Would the rectangle be too long? I know square is bad. So the new dimensions would be 18’ long, 10’ 7” wide and 7’ 8” height. Oh please let that turn out to be an acceptable room mode ratio

It's a bit too long, unfortunately. If you could bring it down to abut 14 feet, then you'd have a good ratio. And chopping off 4 feet might even allow you to make a small isolation booth in that space...

I can’t download the room mode calculator here at work so I will do that when I get home.

Try this one: http://amroc.andymel.eu/

If I was to put up a wall, what do I need to consider with the drywall being hung already? Do I need to decouple the new wall from the ceiling in some way?

Normally you would do that, yes. However, if you are getting really good isolation already, and/or isolation is not an issue, then you could forgo that. How is the existing ceiling drywall hung? Is it attached directly to the joists above, or is it on resilient channels? Or maybe RSIC clips plus hat channel? Something else?

If I put up a new wall, I would eliminate the closet doors completely as I have access from the other side (I'd keep it angled to be symmetrical with the left side). That would actually save some work and I would have far better isolation. Thoughts?

That makes sense, yes.

The room feels like a nice size and I would hate to lose the space; that section under the duct was where I planned to hang the guitars.

I'm not a big fan of hanging large reflective panels and resonant boxes inside what is supposed to be an acoustically neutral space.... acoustic guitars are basically just large resonant boxes. Electric guitars are OK from that point of view, but they are still large reflective panels... :) Yeah, I know you see a lot of photos out there of "professional" studios with guitars and other things hung on the walls, but then again, you also see lots of "professional" studios with speakers on the console meter bridge and computer screens in front of the main monitors.... It just goes to show that there's an awful of people in the "professional" recording industry who don't have much of a clue about room acoustics. So personally, I wouldn't do that. I would put them in a glass display case in the live room, where the case is specifically designed to fit in with the room acoustically and visually. But that's just me. Maybe I'm too much of a perfectionist. On the other hand, I have never understood why people spends many tens of thousands of dollars on designing and building an acoustically excellent control room, then immediately trash the acoustics the same day the move in by adding junk to the room... That would be like building a perfectly clean and totally sterile operating theater in a hospital, then installing public toilets on one wall.... Go figure.... :) I guess doctors are smarter than mix engineers, when it comes to understanding their work environments... :shock:

I'm not trying to produce world class mixes, I just want to do gear demo videos and record my original music.

Great, but if you don't have room symmetry and reasonably neutral acoustics, then your mixes won't "translate" well: they will sound fine on YOUR room, but when you play them elsewhere, they will just sound "off", and "strange".

At what point do I say this is fine at my level and expectations.

For most home studio builders, that point usually occurs at the exact instant your bank balance reaches zero! :) :shot: But on a more serious note: You are spending a lot of good money on building this studio, so it makes sense to spend each dollar as intelligently as possible, getting the most "bang for the buck" out of it. You already recognize that you did some things wrong, and therefore wasted money on them. So the plan from here on out should be to NOT waste any more money by doing more things wrong, and perhaps even to bite the bullet and undo some of things that you already did, in order to get a better final outcome. For example, if that were my room, I would take out those angled closets and close of that entire end of the room with a wall, making it into the utility room and storage area, making the rest of the room into a rectangular studio with good room symmetry. Yeah, I would swear at myself and kick my own butt several times per day as I took done my own hard work, but I would so so know that I was doing the smart thing now in order to get a better room. I would also work carefully try to save the materials as I took them down, so I can reuse them to build the new wall. Now, that's just me, and you probably have some very valid reasons why you don't want to do that, but I always like to take this approach when offering advice: if that were my room, what would I do?

Will I notice the effort in the end?

Oh yes! :!: 8) You bet. No doubt at all. And so will your friends and clients.

Will the average guitar nerd listening to my demos even care?

Very, very likely, if it allows him to hear the guitar as it really sounds, rather than the way your room mangled and distorted it into sounding.... The issue is this: You can get any mix sounding great in your room the way you proposed to build it: that's not the issue. The demo can sound fantastic when played ... in THAT room, since you will be compensating for the room's defects in the mix, either consciously or subconsciously. But when you take the mix and play it some pace else, such as in your car, living room, MP3 player, a club, or the system at the home of your "guitar nerd" client, it will sound lousy: the "compensation" that you built into the mix to make it sound good in YOUR room, is no longer needed for that other playing location, so it will just sound "wrong" when played there. In other words, as I said before, your mixes will not "translate". That's why the concept behind control room design is to make it sound neutral. The room should not add to or take away from the direct sound coming form the speakers. It should just "disappear". It's a myth that control rooms should "sound good": they should NOT sound good! They should have no sound of their own at all. So when you mix in a neutral room, your mixes will have nothing but the straight natural sound of "no coloration" in them, and therefore will sound the same no matter where you play them. They will sound great in any other playing location, because they are neutral. That's the concept, at least.

Thanks again and if there are any other suggestions on how I may me able to improve the project before I get too far to turn around, please let me know!

Photos! Let's see what the room looks like right now, so we can help you figure out what to do about it. Also, do a more accurate diagram of the room using SketchUp software, so we get a better idea of the space. You could also do an acoustic test using the REW software, so you can see just how bad the room is right now, then do additional test later as the build and treatment progresses, so you can see how it is improving. - Stuart -

Thanks again Stuart! Unfortunately, I am very depressed now :( I will have to talk it over with my wife and see if we can make it work within our budget and time frame. The proposed changes; putting a wall down the duct line and “take out those angled closets and close of that entire end of the room with a wall, making it into the utility room and storage area” would actually make the dimensions about the same as the second room (16’ x 10’). The other room has a bulkhead for the duct as well so I would have to wall that up and I would need to put a door in from the stair entrance. Perhaps this first room we’ve been discussing should become the live room with amps, drums and guitars hanging from the walls (dirty) and the second room could be the mixing room (clean). Six years ago when we bought the house, that was my initial thought. I’ve come full circle. :shock: I will post pictures tonight of what I have so far and spend some time with SketchUp to get a more accurate representation of the spaces I have to work with. Thank you so much for taking the time to help! I really do appreciate it! Oh by the way, the pink Styrofoam insulation was not intended to be anything to do with acoustics; it was a vapor barrier so the Roxul insulation in the walls would not become damp if there was condensation due to being underground. It was more a precaution and what was recommended to prepare a basement for framing in our area. 8)

Perhaps this first room we’ve been discussing should become the live room with amps, drums and guitars hanging from the walls

Actually, that shape and size would probably make a pretty good live room!

the second room could be the mixing room

Is that one rectangular? If so, what are the dimensions? Maybe you get lucky here, on the ratio... :) - Stuart -

Here is a quick sketch I did of the whole basement: Here is the room we've been talking about: Looking into the other room: So, the other room is 16' long, 10' wide and 7' 8" high. It also has a bulkhead for the duct work but the big problem here is there would need to be a door in two of the corners (where I need my bass traps :evil: ). If I completely walled up the duct and eliminated the bulkhead it would be about 13' long. Give me some good news! Edit: Just a quick note that my drawings are very approximant (which is obvious when compared to photos) and are more or less, just a way to get an idea what I’m working with. I haven’t had a chance to download SketchUp yet and I really need to!

Stuart, quick question: Would it be totally unacceptable to achieve symmetry with the use of gobos? When I am just playing music (90 percent of the time), I would keep the room open and when doing critical mixing, I would use gobos to block off the odd part of the room under the duct. Does that make sense? Is it a feasible solution or ridiculously foolish? I’m also thinking about taking down the sheet rock over the circuit panel closet and losing the door, then filling it with OC 703 and covering it with fabric. I would put a section of it on a hinge to access the circuit breakers (lined to be safe). I would do the same with a portion of the opposite closet to have identical treatment but keep the door that is under the duct. Both side would be the same (angles and treatment). I don’t think that using the second room for the desk makes sense for me because it wouldn’t fit my work flow. I need to have instruments and the computer all in reach and having them separated just wouldn’t be functional for me. Thanks! Marco

Stuart, quick question: Would it be totally unacceptable to achieve symmetry with the use of gobos?

Unfortunately, you can't change the modes of the room with Gobos. Modes are all about the hard, massive, rigid boundaries of the room. Gobos might break up the modal response a little, to a certain extent, but they won't change the modes. Gobos would work reasonably on high frequencies... but then again, those are not very directional anyway... - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

Stuart, quick question: Would it be totally unacceptable to achieve symmetry with the use of gobos?

Unfortunately, you can't change the modes of the room with Gobos. Modes are all about the hard, massive, rigid boundaries of the room. Gobos might break up the modal response a little, to a certain extent, but they won't change the modes. Gobos would work reasonably on high frequencies... but then again, those are not very directional anyway... -

The more I read about room modes, the more unsure I am about how they would apply in my space. In my case the whole basement being cinder block below grade and the room only having two of the stud/drywall walls directly in front of the cinder block walls. The back wall has a closet so there is a three foot space between the stud/drywall wall and the cinder block wall. The last wall has an unfinished room, stairs and a finished room behind it. The room is asymmetrical so I am averaging the size to determine the room mode to begin with so whatever the calculators are telling me, it’s still a crap shoot if I get lucky. LOL As far as my idea with the Gobos, they would be more like movable walls with built in treatment; the back side would be cement board to simulate the cinder block (to a degree sort of) with drywall on the face and filled with Roxul just like the actual walls. The treatment on the movable walls would mirror what is on the real wall on the opposite side of the room (4” OC 703 on early reflection points and slats on some). The goal would be to have the room open when playing or recording, then move the temporary wall/Gobo into place when I want to do critical mixing. The walls could be stored in the closet in the back of the room. They would be built from floor to ceiling (height of the low ceiling) and on hidden wheels to roll in place. They could also be used for mild isolation when tracking multiple players in the room. I know this is not a typical or practical idea for a real studio but I think it will work well for what I want to accomplish… The tests will tell the story I suppose.. Once the floors are finished this week, I will start moving the equipment back in and begin testing and adding treatment a little at a time to see what the treatment is doing. I’ll begin with the superchunks and go from there… It’s an echo chamber now but it sounds very pleasing and makes me want to sing. I hope I can retain the life in the room and get the bad frequencies under control.

Just an update... I'm not in a position to change the room and for now I will live with my mistakes. As a live room, it seems to sound great but I know nothing I mix will translate. Now on to the next matter... I have eight boxes of Owens Corning 703 (6 boxes of 4" and 2 of 2"), my desk will arrive this weekend so I will be able to set up the DAW and start doing some tests. I have already planned to do superchunks in the back wall corners but I need to come up with a solution for the weird angled closets. My plan is to either cut out the inside of the closet doors and built 8" thick bass traps into them or just hang 6" bass traps on them. I can nearly fill the small closet with insulation and most of the larger one. Will either of these ideas do any good or will I be making things worse? Here is a pic after staining and painting the floors (it had been two months since I've had my guitar rig set up so that was the first priority :lol: ):