Studio Wiring Advice Sought

Hey Guys, While I wait for my tech's time to free up - I thought I would solicit some wiring advice from those with experience. I think this is a design issue? - I've done a search but have come up with little on wiring techniques, strategies etc.-- maybe there should be a forum dedictated to the wiring/insatallation phase, because in all honesty this stuff is bogging me down! I've bought a multimeter and soldering station, have cracked open Newell, Giddings, Davis & Davis & the Yamaha sound Reinforcement books. I'm a bit overwhelmed in all honesty. :shock: I'm trying to achieve maximum wiring flexibility. Everything to tt patchbays (console and extra 96 pt). External gear racks broke out to DB25 connectors perhaps - pigtails from there - to make it easier to swap gear out. I'm thinking of a CR wall plate for tracking in the Control room, plus the live room panel. Usual stuff needed I suppose; just looking to have a nice robust plan that won't leave me wanting for something that I should have done later on! Maybe if you have time you can check out the attached pdf of my wiring plan to date! :lol: Best, Dave Blauvelt

For some reason, it's not coming up when I click the download. As far the tech thread, I agree. I talked w/ John late last year about moderating the tech thread, but I got so busy here at work, I wasn't sure if I was going to be able to devote as much time as I wanted. Edited: I managed to get it... Does the 80C have a built in bay already? How many bays do you have the room for? For the most diverse options, you'll want it all to come up on the patchbay. I'm working on some plans/ideas. Give me a day or 2 to work on this. Aaron

Oh, by the way, give me exactly what you have on the console for outputs, inputs, inserts, monitors, mains, groups or busses, etc, etc, etc. It's been awhile since I've worked on a Trident. Not sure how the 80C is set up. Also, when you're referring to "Phono", are you referring to TRS (Tip, Ring, Sleve) 1/4" jacks (Balanced), or are you doing TS (Tip, Sleve) 1/4" jacks (Unbalanced). Do you have Aux sends & returns? do you want any of the aux sends to go automatically to any verb or delay units or do you want them to go to headphones? What are you using as your "Master 2 track recorder"? How many "Input sources...(A, B, C or 1, 2, 3)" do you have? I may need you to send me the pin out diagrams of the console to help w/ the diagrams. Aaron

Got another question, Are you using the RNC compressors in mono only, or stereo as well?

Hey Aaron! Thanx for the reply!

Does the 80C have a built in bay already? How many bays do you have the room for?

The 80 C does have a built in patchbay - I'll detail below. I also have one extra 96 point tt bay. I have room for at least 3 more 1 rack space 96 pont bays if needed. :D

Oh, by the way, give me exactly what you have on the console for outputs, inputs, inserts, monitors, mains, groups, etc, etc, etc.

The Trident 80C I have has 32 mic/line inputs ("takes signals from either low impedance 200-600 ohm balance microphone transformer coupled or high level low impedance 20k ohm bridging balanced line (electronically coupled sources like a professional tape machine.") Each of the 32 line channel has a corresponding fader and seperate mic/line attenuation. The desk is split design with 24 monitor returns with 12 above 12 modules with EQ(slpit desk) 24 monitor mix faders on the consoles left side. See pics here: http://www.johnlsayers.com/Studio/Mainp ... efield.htm the monitor section can take two 24 track machines (I'll be starting with one radar24) Each of the 32 mic/line inputs is bussable to 1-24 buss groups. 1-5 aux sends, Aux 4-5 for foldback traditionally. There are 4 "echo return modules in the master section (basically 4 extra line inputs) that were designed to be used as foldback reverb etc to aux 4/5 for headphones etc. This 80c has two stereo buss's. A & B. I will most likely be using the A buss for now - as we had a few issues in the monitor section. But I imagine we can get the second stereo buss working down the road. The 24 group outputs from the console are normalled via the console patchbay to both multitrack tape machine line inputs. The 24 groups also can be sent to external equipment via the patchbay. Each of the 32 mic/line inputs has 4 range eq. polarity inversion, mute, solo, and aux 1-5 - pre or post fader. In addition each mic/line input channel is routed to the console patchbay titled " channel sends to external equipment" - this is routed pre-fader. The upper console patchbay has 22 external eqipment inputs and outputs. In addition, below the main patchbay there are what appears to be 32 extra equipment inputs and outputs. All patchbays are tt format. As I mentioned I already possess on tt rack of 48 I/O (96 points). You can see from the pdf what I am thinking for the Live room and control room. I want to be able to track in he CR, send guitar signals (with appropriate DI signal chain) to amp in live room; re-amp line signals; use stomp boxes in the CR is desired as outboard effects; send foldback to studio monitors or headphones (I have an old mackie 1604 for possible headphone cue?); pehaps include cat 5 cabling for a future "more me" headphone system; midi I/O; video L/R phonos -- anything I forgot? That's it for now..if you need anything else just let me know. Thanx for the help! Dave :wink:

Here's a start, that's about all I can do today. I'll work on it some more and give a little more detail. This should give a general idea though...

Also, when you're referring to "Phono", are you referring to TRS (Tip, Ring, Sleve) 1/4" jacks (Balanced), or are you doing TS (Tip, Sleve) 1/4" jacks (Unbalanced). I may need you to send me the pin out diagrams of the console to help w/ the diagrams.

All the "phono" gear is unbalanced to date, including the RNC's. I've got two JBL/Urei 7110 compressors coming this week - picked them up nstead of the distrssors. :D Much cheaper. I believe they are moded for balanced I/O. They each have a sidechain as well. I'll see by friday. The only other thing I'm picking up for outboard in the near future is probably the Buzz audio opto stereo compressor.

Do you have Aux sends & returns? do you want any of the aux sends to go automatically to any verb or delay units or do you want them to go to headphones? What are you using as your "Master 2 track recorder"? How many "Input sources...(A, B, C or 1, 2, 3)" do you have?

I was thinking of using the echo return modules hard wired to some of my cheaper verbs - but the more I think of it, I think it would be best to bring everything to it's own tt point, and patch as necessary. Only the radar 24 track will be hard wired to the console, and the mic inputs - is what I'm thinking. I've got three 2 track sources on the monitor section - again I was thinking to simply patch whatever source I want to asign to the 2 track select buttons from my extra 96 pt tt bay. I will most likely mix to 2 tracks of the radar, but I would like to keep the option open to use my tascam 32 reel-to-reel or dat machine, As you can see most of my gear is prosumer stuff (unbalanced) with the exception of the MXR delay, KSP8, and the comps I have coming. I was thinking that if I broke out all my patchbay points out to say DB25's - I could then use pigtails to outboard equipment, to make it easier to swap/upgrade outboard gear as I go along.

Are you using the RNC compressors in mono only, or stereo as well?

Seems like it would be nice to have the option to use the RNC's as mono or stereo? Best, Dave

Dave, As far as your comment on Prosumer...You at least have a slammin console. I love Tridents. I use to work on Roger Waters old 56 channel Series 80 console when it was in Seattle. It recently went up for sale again somewhere in Ohio. If I had the 24k, I would have bought it. But it needed about 20k worth of maintenance. Anyway, if you have a digital camera, take a couple close up pix of what the patchbay is now and how it's configured. If the labels don't show well, maybe you can lay them out in spreadsheet form or something. So when you say phono (are you referring to RCA connections?) You're thowing me on a loop here (sorry, it's been a rough Monday). I'm assuming what you're saying is these "Phono" pieces here are 1/4" TS (Tip/Sleeve) Unbalanced. Is this correct?

I was thinking of using the echo return modules hard wired to some of my cheaper verbs - but the more I think of it, I think it would be best to bring everything to it's own tt point, and patch as necessary.

Using a patchbay, it's versatile. It's hardwired via normalling in the patchbay. This way you don't have to patch, but if you want it to go elsewhere, just repatch it.

Only the radar 24 track will be hard wired to the console, and the mic inputs - is what I'm thinking.

The 24 track is the same thing. It's hardwired via normalling in the patchbay, this way you can repatch a channel to another track or if you're using outboard pre's, you can still patch into the tape (harddisk) machine. Mic inputs...the Tridents I've worked on, the mic tie lines always came up on the very top row of the consoles patchbay. I'm guessing yours does the same. If all you have to do is wire tuchels, the patchbay may already be harwired to the console. This will make life more simple. And I think it's already wired this way. Let's see the pix or diagrams of the patchbay. Thanks, Aaron

Hey Aaron - thanx for the encouragement and help!

I'm assuming what you're saying is these "Phono" pieces here are 1/4" TS (Tip/Sleeve) Unbalanced. Is this correct?

Indeedy. :lol:

Mic inputs...the Tridents I've worked on, the mic tie lines always came up on the very top row of the consoles patchbay. I'm guessing yours does the same.

Unfortunatley my console does not have the mic tie lines in the patchbay. :x Maybe I can make one?

If all you have to do is wire tuchels, the patchbay may already be harwired to the console. This will make life more simple. And I think it's already wired this way.

yes the patchbay is hardired to the console! Attached is a diagram of the console patchbay. Thanx, Dave

Ah, it's starting to come back to memory. OK, now I know what you meant about going direct to the console on the mic inputs. That's ok. In fact many people don't like phantom power running through the patchbay anyway. Question: Will you be using any "ouboard mic pre's"? Or just the Tridents? Let's start at the top and work down. Line inputs. This is versatile. This should be hardwired into the console. Don't need to do anything here. Channel Sends to Ext. Equip. & Channel Returns from Ext. Equip.: These are your insert points for patching in/inserting gear for each channel. Channel Direct Outputs: You can use this to patch over to another track on your multitrack. Or use it for a direct out on a channel for effects sends, etc. External inputs and outputs. These are the tie lines for wiring up outboard gear. We'll need the pin out info for Tuchel on these. Plate 1: Do you know if this is a send or return? I'm guessing these come out on the tuchel's. Audio File O/P: This will also be a tuchel connection. Is this what's currently labeled or what will be on this? Echo Returns: Also a tuchel connection. Return from plates? Aux Sends 1 2 3: I'm guessing is wired from the console. OSC: Oscilator (wired from console) Mult's 1, 2, 3, 4: patchbay mults. Group Sends to Ext. Equipment: You said this was a split console. These are your 24 insert sends. (wired to console) Group Returns from Ext. Equip: These are the insert returns. (wired to console) Plate 2: Same as plate 1 above. Aux Sends 4 & 5: wired to console. Half normalled to FB amp I/P Mon. Send L R: wired to console. This may be half normalled to Monitor I/P L R. Rep Coil in & out: ????? Group outputs: These are your direct outputs like the channel direct outs. Hard wired to console. These are also probably half normalled or fully normalled to mutli track inputs. FB amp I/P: send to headphone monitor amp. Delay Device 1, 2, 3: I'm assuming are wired to tuchel's. I/P Spkr: also guessing these are wired to tuchels. Multi Track inputs 1: Half normalled or fully normalled connections from group outputs. wired to tuchel connectors. Multi track outputs 1: Half normalled or fully normalled to monitor line inputs 1. wired from tuchel connectors. Multi track 2 inputs and outputs wired from tuchels. ST I/P 1, 2, 3: Stereo return inputs I guessing for the effects returns/stereo returns on console. ST O/P 1, 2, 3: Stereo outputs. Having a brain fart here. VU Meter: probably for either monitoring or calibrating. STD Play sends: Probably normalled or half normalled to STD play I/P STD Play I/P: I'm guessing this goes to the tuchels. Buss A & B send: 2 track outputs from console? for inserting a compressor or something into stereo mix or output to another 2 track recorder. Buss A & B return: 2 track inputs for return from inserted outboard gear or return from another 2 track. Probably half normalled to Buss send A & B. Buss A & B output: These are the direct outputs of the 2 mix. This will also allow any inserted outboard from the inserts listed above. Use this to go to another 2 track machine. Mono A & B Send: Same as buss, but mono. Mono A & B Return: Same as buss, but mono. Mono A & B ouput: Same as buss, but mono. Mon Select 1-6: ??? Extra Patchpoints: wired to tuchels for outboard tie lines. You probably knew most of this already. It's actually easier than it looks. Most people get overwhelmed by patchbays. Tridents are laid out in an easy way to understand. Aaron

So really, you don't have much you have to wire. About the only things you have to wire would be: Outboard Tielines (ext. outputs & inputs, extra patch points) Multi-track inputs & outputs Plate 1, 2 Audio File O/P Echo returns Rep coil I/P & O/P?? FB Amp Mon Send Delay device spkr I/P Buss A & B output STD Play I/P As far as your multi-track 2 inputs & outputs. If you know or have an idea of what you will connect to these, you can build the connectors such as DB25. Otherwise you can just build snakes w/ TT's on one end and various other connections on the other. XLR, DB25, EDAC (Elco), 1/4", etc. This will allow for any combination of an additional machine or hard disk recorder. Maybe you'll have Pro Tools in for a session one day, and need to bring up the outputs on the console. For DB25 cables, it's easiest to do 8 pair snakes (cables). EDAC, depending on what you're wiring, usually 8 pair as well. If you'll have a 2 inch machine, usually a 24 pair cable for in's and 24 for out's. (if it's a 24 track) If you have some outboard mic pre's, you can just hardwire from the live room with another snake directly to the pre's, then have the outputs of the pre's come up on the extra patchbay. This way you don't have to worry about phantom power running through the patch bay. Also allows the most direct signal from the mic to the pre. BTW...just noticed an 80C module being sold on ebay. Need a spare? I just looked at your diagram again for wiring. I'm kind of curious about the DB25's. If your going to do something like this, you may want to consider using the ADC punch down blocks. This way if you ever have to move something, it's real easy, and no resoldering a bunch of connectors. I know several people who use these and swear by them. Here's a pic I just took from ebay...

Aaron - Thanx for going through this with me! It's helping make this managable!

Channel Direct Outputs: You can use this to patch over to another track on your multitrack. Or use it for a direct out on a channel for effects sends, etc.

I've also heard that people have used these for bypasing the group sends to track direct to the recorder:)

Plate 1: Do you know if this is a send or return? I'm guessing these come out on the tuchel's.

No idea - but the echo returns appear to be designed as mono returns?

Audio File O/P: This will also be a tuchel connection. Is this what's currently labeled or what will be on this?

what is Audio file Output? :shock:

ST I/P 1, 2, 3: Stereo return inputs I guessing for the effects returns/stereo returns on console. ST O/P 1, 2, 3: Stereo outputs. Having a brain fart here.

These are for the stereo tape machines 1-3, according to the manual the "stereo buss outputs are automatically connected to the back contacts of Stereo Tape Machine One" - gues that means normaled - hehe. The stereo tape machines 1-3 onply seem to work on my stereo buss B for now - I think my tech might have made the A stereo buss seperate from this function - I have several little issues like these. :roll: Did you notice the Monitor Line Inputs 1 & 2 in Blue - not sure of their function? Couple of general questions - cause the manual sucks so bad: After you cut some tracks on my 24 trk and press play - will the 1-24 tracks come up the line chanels? Or does one patch the multitrack outs to each line chanel needed? Surely one is not mixing from the monitor section? I'm thinking that it might be cool to use the Trident foldback system with amp as designed - aux 4/5 - I guess that a headphone distribution system 600ohm? I imagine it would be nice to have a headphone system off the players system to monitor their foldback? As for the punch down blocks - this is news to me - I'm all ears! That's all for now? Best , Dave. p.s. - email me if you prefer @ [removed] - are you still an active tech? :lol:

Dave,

I've also heard that people have used these for bypasing the group sends to track direct to the recorder:)

Yes, you can do this. Hopefully you have a bunch of patch cords... :) Were there any harnesses when you got the console? This might show some of the labeling.

what is Audio file Output?

I'm guessing something the previous owner used.

Did you notice the Monitor Line Inputs 1 & 2 in Blue - not sure of their function?

Those are coming back into the console. The way it's layed out on the patchbay, these should be normalled from the tape machine outputs. At least # 1 is. If you have a second tape machine, this is where you would patch in all the outputs of your 24 track machine (into #2). And I'm going to guess these come up on the monitor side (the split section).

After you cut some tracks on my 24 trk and press play - will the 1-24 tracks come up the line chanels? Or does one patch the multitrack outs to each line chanel needed? Surely one is not mixing from the monitor section?

Depending on how this console is set up (I haven't used the 80C so I'm not completely sure), some consoles are set up to "track" on one side and "monitor" on the other while tracking. You shouldn't have to patch to come up on the console from the tape machine as I mentioned above about the monitor inputs. However, there are a couple of different ways you can utilize this patchbay. And when they call this a split console and monitor section, the left is for sending to tape for tracking, and right is for monitoring back, hence the name monitor section. I seem to remember when I used the 80 series, we patched from the direct outputs or group outputs and went straight to tape, and monitored back on the other half of the console. It wouldn't be difficult to figure it out, just a little time to tone out the patch bay and see what's doing what. Do you have the diagrams for pinouts or a pinout sheet for the tuchels?

are you still an active tech?

If I ever finish construction on my studio...yes. I miss sniffin' the 'ole solder...(not really to much lead :shock: ) I've done a lot of cables and snakes, for either myself and/or others. Wired a studio or two and eventually mine. Aaron

Do you have the diagrams for pinouts or a pinout sheet for the tuchels?

Yeah I got the manual with the pinouts. I also got a multi-meter for beeping out the patchbay. :D I'm getting a clearer picture of what I'll be doing. In need to research the ADC's some more. Still trying to figure what to do for a folback amp. I need to settle on a wire brand and connectors. I'll need some help though - maybe I'll try my tech guy this week. Dave

I need to settle on a wire brand and connectors.

If you have the budget, I'd suggest Mogami. Otherwise you can go w/ Gepco or something of that nature. I'll ask a couple people who carries it in the Atlanta area. Connectors...I like Neutrik. They're easy to work with. You'll need/want: heat shrink tubing, nylon sleeving and wire markers (numbers). Panduit makes these. The sleeving helps protect the wires on the multipair snake, and also keeps it from tangling up. Try this site... http://www.heatshrink.com Aaron

Cool thread guys, please don't go private with this. I'm sure a lot of our members would agree - Just a small point for clarity - the term "phono" is never (in my experience) used to refer to a 1/4" connector, it's synonymous with the term "RCA connector", as in consumer stereo gear. The term "phone" refers to 1/4" connectors, "TS" is a 2-conductor 1/4" phone connector. "TRS" is a 3-conductor 1/4" phone connector, and can be used either for a balanced single-channel connection or for two channel un-balanced connection (headphones, for example) Those are the terms as I've seen them for the last 45 years, anyway - not trying to nitpick, just noticed that Aaron seemed confused by this as did I... Steve

Steve, Maybe it's time I chat w/ John again about moderating the tech thread... :D Aaron

Less talk, more action... :twisted: Seriously, please do... Steve

Just sent John a PM. :D 8)

My bust on "phono" :oops: Perhaps a good illustration on why knuckleheads like myself need a little education in these matters! As I progress with the wiring - I can document my work with pics etc.; including the rational for my choices - if their is interest. I'm thinking the punch-down blocks might not be the solution, for me. We'll see :D Thanx for the help - so far. I'll check in the the other links Aaron. Best, Dave

John, Should we move this over to the new "Installation & Wiring" forum? Aaron