Hi All,
First post here, after spending much time lurking and learning. I am growing very tired of sharing office and practice space in a spare bedroom and have started planning a dedicated practice/recording/mixing space in a partially finished basement room. My goals in order are:
1. Dedicated practice/rehearsal space for myself and my compadres.
2. Space to record others (small groups).
3. Good listening/mixing environment.
Before I spend another nickel, I'd love to hear opinions from wiser heads than my own on two fundamental questions. First, the specs:
When there is more than just me playing, it gets loud. 90+db on my Radio Shack meter. I'd like to attenuate to keep wife-tantrums at a minimum, but noise control is not a primary concern. It is a large-ish house (5400sf total including first floor basement/garage space) on several wooded acres.
The room in question is cement block on three sides, and a framed 2x4 wall on the fourth. The ceiling is open, 12" joists on 16" centers with a plywood subfloor, padding, and laminate above. The room directly above the space is a formal dining room that is rarely in use. The floor is poured concrete, currently unfinished. There is a roughed-in opening for a 32" door on the stud wall and a 36" double-slider window on one short concrete wall. My electric service is in two panels (110v and 220v) both of which are located on the long cement block wall in the corner closest to the window. The concrete walls are partially below grade (about 5'). The 2x4 wall is currently not insulated just bare studs, the cement block walls are furred with nailed 1x2's on 16" centers and insulated with rigid foam. I had an electrician rough out the wiring, but not finish outlets or lighting until I decide on the final details.
Room dimensions are (HWL) 8'6" x 15' x 26'2". Walls are measured between nailing surfaces and ceiling measured to subfloor above. I have attached a dimensioned image with a first-pass idea of what the mixing position would be @ 1/3rd the length.
The first question I am wrestling with is "ONE ROOM OR TWO". I like Ethan Winer's studio build and I believe that he went with one open space and no control room. I also think that John's drawing of the two room Garage studio is pretty darn cool. I'm not sure if my scenario warrants the cool factor and I'm certain that would be the more costly approach. I'd love to get feedback on why/why not to go with one room or two.
The second is whether or not to drop or drywall the ceiling. I am inclined to just treat it and leave as much space as possible - I had a listening/practice room in my prior home and went with three layers (drywall/fiber/drywall) on the ceiling. It worked great, but the result was very claustrophobic.
I'm sure I'll have many more questions but I need to figure out the high-level plan for the space before moving forward.
Any thoughts will be appreciated.
Basement Studio Design - one room or two?
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 18742.
Any thoughts from anyone?
I've ordered drywall for the four outer walls (5/8"), planning to glue and screw. I'll caulk all of the seams and boxes during the installation. Still pensive about what to do with the ceiling and whether or not to partition two rooms in the space. In the mean time, I will SafeNSound the stud wall and probably do a double 2" layer of the same in the ceiling joists. Thoughts anyone??
--JD
Hi Jack, and welcome to the forum! :)
Sorry about the delay in responding: I'm on vacation right now, and not checking the forum too much...
So no drums then? Just quiet-ish instruments, such as acoustic guitars, electric guitars on a not-too-loud setting, bass guitar cab kept quiet, and vocals? Is that about it? That shouldn't be too hard to isolate. Things get complex when you have an acoustic drum kit and a bass cab turned up to 11. but if you are keeping it down to 90 dB already, then there is hope. But if you do plan to add a drum kit at some point, then you should consider that now, so you can increase the isolation. Drums usually come in at around 115 dB or more, and adding the other instruments can take that up to around 120. That's really hard to isolate!When there is more than just me playing, it gets loud. 90+db on my Radio Shack meter.
That's a good start!The room in question is cement block on three sides,
That will need some work...and a framed 2x4 wall on the fourth
That's also good.The floor is poured concrete, currently unfinished.
How thick is that plywood? But regardless, that is likely also going to need beefing up a bit, to get you good isolation.The ceiling is open, 12" joists on 16" centers with a plywood subfloor, padding, and laminate above.
Not so good... :( That's a major weak point for isolation. Where does that door lead to?a 36" double-slider window on one short concrete wall.
Those will probably need to be relocated to the new inner-leaf, once it id in place.My electric service is in two panels (110v and 220v) both of which are located on the long cement block wall in the corner closest to the window.
38% is the theoretical best location. That's 38% of the distance from the front wall to the rear wall, but we are talking about the inner-leaf walls, not the current outer-leaf walls.a first-pass idea of what the mixing position would be @ 1/3rd the length.
In a word: "room ratios". OK, so that's two words... Your room is too long and the dimensions are too close to each other to make for a good mixing environment. Plug those numbers into a good room ratio calculator, and you'll see that your modal response would be very unfavorable. In fact, those dimensions fail two of the three critical tests used by the BBC to decide if a room is usable for a studio. Failing any one of those is bad, but failing two.... :!: :shock: So from that point of view, two rooms makes more sense in your case: you can adjust the position of the divider so that both rooms have good ratios.The first question I am wrestling with is "ONE ROOM OR TWO". I like Ethan Winer's studio build and I believe that he went with one open space and no control room. I also think that John's drawing of the two room Garage studio is pretty darn cool. I'm not sure if my scenario warrants the cool factor and I'm certain that would be the more costly approach. I'd love to get feedback on why/why not to go with one room or two.
That depends entirely on how much isolation you need, and the condition of that floor above you. And on your 1 room / 2 room decision. If you need no isolation at all (just what you have right now), then you can forget about adding new ceilings, and keep all that height: But if you do need isolation, or if you do go for two rooms, then obviously you need ceilings. However, there are techniques that can be used to minimize the loss of ceiling height, and if your existing floor up there is in good condition, with nothing to prevent using those techniques, you'd only need to give up a couple of inches, maximum. So your new final inner-leaf ceiling can be at maybe 8'2" or even 8'4". That's not bad at all.The second is whether or not to drop or drywall the ceiling.
Outer walls? You already HAVE the outer walls! Those are your existing concrete block walls. You only need INNER leaf walls at this point. No more outer walls. OK, except for the existing stud wall that is the 4th side of the room: that is going to need some serious beefing up, but only on the side that already has drywall: not the other side of the studs! Leave that side open.I've ordered drywall for the four outer walls (5/8"),
:shock: Glue? As in "glue the layers of drywall together"? Bad idea! That reduces isolation considerably. Just put up the two layers on top of each other, with no glue. Unless you meant "Green Glue", which isn't glue at all, despite the name. If that's the case, and you really are planning to use Green Glue, then yes, that's fine. But do NOT use any type of adhesive between your layers of drywall.planning to glue and screw.
Boxes? What boxes?I'll caulk all of the seams and boxes during the installation.
That will not do anything at all for isolation. It would help to a certain extent as treatment for the room, but that would be for the case where you have only one single room and do not want any isolation at all. - Stuart -probably do a double 2" layer of the same in the ceiling joists.
Thanks for the reply!
To answer your quesions:
1. Yup, no drums so not too loud. Isolation is not really an issue for me, but I would like to attenuate a bit.
2. I am going to go with one room, with two big movable gobos as a partition "wall". I get that this will not do anything for isolation, it is more a function of this being a multi-use room. I want to keep the option of opening the space up fully when entertaining.
Thanks for your feedback. I am sure that to a professional my casual disregard for isolation may be a bit baffling, but it really isn't an issue for me.
As far as getting a bit of attenuation while maintaining the open ceiling, do you think that 6" of rockwool or 12" of r-30 would be more effective as a dual purpose bass trap / attenuator? This would essentially cover the entire ceiling, it would amount to 19 runs that are 16" wide and 16' long.
Hi Jack, and welcome to the forum! :) Sorry about the delay in responding: I'm on vacation right now, and not checking the forum too much...So no drums then? Just quiet-ish instruments, such as acoustic guitars, electric guitars on a not-too-loud setting, bass guitar cab kept quiet, and vocals? Is that about it? That shouldn't be too hard to isolate. Things get complex when you have an acoustic drum kit and a bass cab turned up to 11. but if you are keeping it down to 90 dB already, then there is hope. But if you do plan to add a drum kit at some point, then you should consider that now, so you can increase the isolation. Drums usually come in at around 115 dB or more, and adding the other instruments can take that up to around 120. That's really hard to isolate!When there is more than just me playing, it gets loud. 90+db on my Radio Shack meter.That's a good start!The room in question is cement block on three sides,That will need some work...and a framed 2x4 wall on the fourthThat's also good.The floor is poured concrete, currently unfinished.How thick is that plywood? But regardless, that is likely also going to need beefing up a bit, to get you good isolation.The ceiling is open, 12" joists on 16" centers with a plywood subfloor, padding, and laminate above.Not so good... :( That's a major weak point for isolation. Where does that door lead to?a 36" double-slider window on one short concrete wall.Those will probably need to be relocated to the new inner-leaf, once it id in place.My electric service is in two panels (110v and 220v) both of which are located on the long cement block wall in the corner closest to the window.38% is the theoretical best location. That's 38% of the distance from the front wall to the rear wall, but we are talking about the inner-leaf walls, not the current outer-leaf walls.a first-pass idea of what the mixing position would be @ 1/3rd the length.In a word: "room ratios". OK, so that's two words... Your room is too long and the dimensions are too close to each other to make for a good mixing environment. Plug those numbers into a good room ratio calculator, and you'll see that your modal response would be very unfavorable. In fact, those dimensions fail two of the three critical tests used by the BBC to decide if a room is usable for a studio. Failing any one of those is bad, but failing two.... :!: :shock: So from that point of view, two rooms makes more sense in your case: you can adjust the position of the divider so that both rooms have good ratios.The first question I am wrestling with is "ONE ROOM OR TWO". I like Ethan Winer's studio build and I believe that he went with one open space and no control room. I also think that John's drawing of the two room Garage studio is pretty darn cool. I'm not sure if my scenario warrants the cool factor and I'm certain that would be the more costly approach. I'd love to get feedback on why/why not to go with one room or two.That depends entirely on how much isolation you need, and the condition of that floor above you. And on your 1 room / 2 room decision. If you need no isolation at all (just what you have right now), then you can forget about adding new ceilings, and keep all that height: But if you do need isolation, or if you do go for two rooms, then obviously you need ceilings. However, there are techniques that can be used to minimize the loss of ceiling height, and if your existing floor up there is in good condition, with nothing to prevent using those techniques, you'd only need to give up a couple of inches, maximum. So your new final inner-leaf ceiling can be at maybe 8'2" or even 8'4". That's not bad at all.The second is whether or not to drop or drywall the ceiling.Outer walls? You already HAVE the outer walls! Those are your existing concrete block walls. You only need INNER leaf walls at this point. No more outer walls. OK, except for the existing stud wall that is the 4th side of the room: that is going to need some serious beefing up, but only on the side that already has drywall: not the other side of the studs! Leave that side open.I've ordered drywall for the four outer walls (5/8"),:shock: Glue? As in "glue the layers of drywall together"? Bad idea! That reduces isolation considerably. Just put up the two layers on top of each other, with no glue. Unless you meant "Green Glue", which isn't glue at all, despite the name. If that's the case, and you really are planning to use Green Glue, then yes, that's fine. But do NOT use any type of adhesive between your layers of drywall.planning to glue and screw.Boxes? What boxes?I'll caulk all of the seams and boxes during the installation.That will not do anything at all for isolation. It would help to a certain extent as treatment for the room, but that would be for the case where you have only one single room and do not want any isolation at all. - Stuart -probably do a double 2" layer of the same in the ceiling joists.
Not at all! Everyone has different needs and priorities, and isolation is only important for people who need to keep their neighbors off their back, or for those who live in places with lots of outside noises that they don't want in their recordings (nearby roads, planes flying overhead, wind, rain, thunder, radios, TVs, phones, lawnmowers, dogs barking, water running in pipes, the vacuum cleaner, washing machine, furnace, etc.). If you don't have any of those problems, then you don't need isolation! Each person has their own needs (and budget), so nobody is going to be upset if you don't isolate your room. After all, it is YOUR room, not ours!I am sure that to a professional my casual disregard for isolation may be a bit baffling,
Either of those will help a lot with trapping, yes, but neither will do much to attenuate sound. It's a common misconception that it is possible to soundproof a room by putting insulation on the walls or ceiling, but in reality that's not what insulation is for, and not how it works. Insulation absorbs sound, yes, but that does not meant that is stops sound getting through to the other side. If you tape a piece of that 6" Rockwool in front of your speaker and turn it on, you'll still hear the music very loud and very clear, with just some of the high end missing, so there's no isolation going on there. Isolation and treatment are two very different aspects of acoustics, and are actually pretty much opposites. I try to explain it this way: If you splash and spill water in the kitchen or bathroom, then a sponge is a very good way of cleaning up that water that splashed where you didn't want it. But if you hold that sponge over the end of the tap, it will not do anything at all to prevent the water getting through! Acoustic absorption works exactly like that: you put it on the parts of your room where you need to mop up sound that "splashed" in places you didn't want it, but it will not prevent sound from getting through to the other side. In other words, it treats, but does not isolate. So yes, it's a good idea to put a lot of insulation up between your ceiling joists, and it will have a very positive effect on the room acoustics inside the room, but it will have very little effect on the amount of sound leaving the room and getting into the rest of the house. Sometimes people get confused about this when they see the amount of insulation that goes into an isolation wall, but that's an entirely different thing: In fact, even then the insulation is just "mopping up the sound that spilled some place I didn't want it". The insulation inside an acoustic isolation wall or ceiling is not there to stop the sound getting through: it is there to damp the internal resonances going on inside the wall. That, in turn, makes the entire wall isolate better, but not because the insulation stopped the sound! It's just because the resonance is damped, and the resonant frequency of the wall is driven down to a lower point. / RANT MODE = OFF / :) By the way, if you don't need any isolation, and you are only going to have one single room in there, not two, then I'm wondering about your earlier comment: "I've ordered drywall for the four outer walls (5/8"),". What walls? You don't need any more walls, except the last one to close of the room! You already have three concrete walls, so all you need to do is build that last one to complete the rectangle. Why did you order enough drywall for four walls, if you don't need isolation? - Stuart -As far as getting a bit of attenuation while maintaining the open ceiling, do you think that 6" of rockwool or 12" of r-30 would be more effective as a dual purpose bass trap / attenuator? This would essentially cover the entire ceiling, it would amount to 19 runs that are 16" wide and 16' long.
Hi Stuart, Thanks again for the insights, I appreciate the sponge analogy! I suppose if the insulation + flooring overhead isn't sufficient I can always revisit the ceiling - there is no rush as this isn't a commercial application. I am installing drywall over the concrete block for two reasons - to cover the insulation and for aesthetics.Not at all! Everyone has different needs and priorities, and isolation is only important for people who need to keep their neighbors off their back, or for those who live in places with lots of outside noises that they don't want in their recordings (nearby roads, planes flying overhead, wind, rain, thunder, radios, TVs, phones, lawnmowers, dogs barking, water running in pipes, the vacuum cleaner, washing machine, furnace, etc.). If you don't have any of those problems, then you don't need isolation! Each person has their own needs (and budget), so nobody is going to be upset if you don't isolate your room. After all, it is YOUR room, not ours!I am sure that to a professional my casual disregard for isolation may be a bit baffling,Either of those will help a lot with trapping, yes, but neither will do much to attenuate sound. It's a common misconception that it is possible to soundproof a room by putting insulation on the walls or ceiling, but in reality that's not what insulation is for, and not how it works. Insulation absorbs sound, yes, but that does not meant that is stops sound getting through to the other side. If you tape a piece of that 6" Rockwool in front of your speaker and turn it on, you'll still hear the music very loud and very clear, with just some of the high end missing, so there's no isolation going on there. Isolation and treatment are two very different aspects of acoustics, and are actually pretty much opposites. I try to explain it this way: If you splash and spill water in the kitchen or bathroom, then a sponge is a very good way of cleaning up that water that splashed where you didn't want it. But if you hold that sponge over the end of the tap, it will not do anything at all to prevent the water getting through! Acoustic absorption works exactly like that: you put it on the parts of your room where you need to mop up sound that "splashed" in places you didn't want it, but it will not prevent sound from getting through to the other side. In other words, it treats, but does not isolate. So yes, it's a good idea to put a lot of insulation up between your ceiling joists, and it will have a very positive effect on the room acoustics inside the room, but it will have very little effect on the amount of sound leaving the room and getting into the rest of the house. Sometimes people get confused about this when they see the amount of insulation that goes into an isolation wall, but that's an entirely different thing: In fact, even then the insulation is just "mopping up the sound that spilled some place I didn't want it". The insulation inside an acoustic isolation wall or ceiling is not there to stop the sound getting through: it is there to damp the internal resonances going on inside the wall. That, in turn, makes the entire wall isolate better, but not because the insulation stopped the sound! It's just because the resonance is damped, and the resonant frequency of the wall is driven down to a lower point. / RANT MODE = OFF / :) By the way, if you don't need any isolation, and you are only going to have one single room in there, not two, then I'm wondering about your earlier comment: "I've ordered drywall for the four outer walls (5/8"),". What walls? You don't need any more walls, except the last one to close of the room! You already have three concrete walls, so all you need to do is build that last one to complete the rectangle. Why did you order enough drywall for four walls, if you don't need isolation? - Stuart -As far as getting a bit of attenuation while maintaining the open ceiling, do you think that 6" of rockwool or 12" of r-30 would be more effective as a dual purpose bass trap / attenuator? This would essentially cover the entire ceiling, it would amount to 19 runs that are 16" wide and 16' long.