New studio/house build including John’s small studio design

Looks great, Ben! Tim would be proud! 8) I haven't had time to analyze the set of REW tests you did, as I'm running at full capacity on paid projects right now, with no free time, but as soon as I get a chance, I will do that. If you wanted to add another set of tests after you get that big boy hung on your rear wall, to see how well it is performing, then that would be great! I can do all the analysis at once, like that... - Stuart -

Hi Stuart, No worries at all and certainly no rush! I am just about to head downstairs to start assembling the five panels and later today I'll head into Bunnings to grab some hard setting shellac or lacquer. If I get the leanfuser hung by the end of today I will be surprised ... 8) So definitely no rush. Next weekend I should get a bit of help to start the RFZ walls, I'm hoping to also get the diffuser up then too and then retest. Thanks again, Ben

Howdy, Here are few last pics from today, one last sand and paint and then I'll finish with a hard oil based lacquer. Ciao

Looking good! I love the "zebra" color scheme! - Stuart -

Hi, This weekend we aimed to get the RFZ up and complete, but, not painted and the diffuser hung too. Unfortunately we did not get the final 18mm MDF cover panel over the RFZ walls and the diffuser did not get hung. I should get the diffuser up through the week and if so I'll run REW again and post. With any luck the RFZ walls will get completed next weekend. There are a few pics below.

Hi, We have had a heat wave here on the East Coast of Australia for the last three or four days with temperatures up around 47 degrees so unfortunately we did not do any work this weekend. I did get the diffuser up though and ran another REW test. I'll upload an updated REW file after we get the last layer on the RFZ walls. Hopefully that will be next weekend and the nest round of REW tests will follow shortly after that. Compared to the initial REW tests I can see that the waterfall graph has changed with the addition of the diffuser and 840-800Hz does look a bit smoother overall if I am not mistaken. There are still a few troughs that are around 10-15db . The addition of the diffuser also seems to have increased the decay time a little. That's all for now.

Hi, A little bit more progress with the hangers covered and the skirting starting. It will be a few more weeks until the skirting is totally finished. There are a few more pics below. Ciao

Hi, I thought I'd post a quick update. Not too much has changed at this point, but, I hope to get some final skirting done this coming weekend and then start organising to move some gear in. I'll post some pictures shortly. Cheers, Ben

Hi, Just a quick note to say that the skirting is up. I will sand the touch up some paint over the next few evenings, and then with any luck, over easter I'll do some further REW testing. As things have been bust it has been hard to post pics, but, I'll get a few up over the next few days. Ciao, Ben

Hi, Apologies for not posting for a while, unfortunately work has been super busy and time has been short as a result. A quick update: The engineered floor is down in outside the studio now too, I still have a small amount of skirting to do, the carpenter who is building a desk (furniture) is finishing a rack insert, one of my monitors started playing up and is away for repair under warranty and I need to do a last clean and add a few curtains. Hopefully, I will post some final pictures over the next few weeks and I'll also be back to final REW work. Thanks, Ben

Good to hear it, Ben! I actually came across your thread two days ago, while looking for something else, and I was wondering how things were progressing... Looking forward to seeing those pics, and the REw tweaking! :) :thu: - Stuart -

Hi Stuart, Things are still moving slower than I would like for the last few things. Aside from a couple of pesky skirting boards and the monitor cover pieces, I am mostly waiting for a furniture desk to be completed. Until that is ready I am hesitant to patch everything just to turn around and pull everything down when the desk is ready and set up again. In the meantime if you do see this post, I was wondering if it might be good to have the option to dampen the right hand glass wall a bit to even out the absorption before any post REW tweaking. As noted earlier the initial early REW tests both pre and post the rear wall diffusor were uneven. Am I right that the right side of the control room was more reflective?(i.e., the sidelight side being the one opposite the left speaker when sitting at the listening position). I hope that is correct as it seems to make sense. Also, is it reasonable to assume that any the extra reflection on the right (due to the sliding door glass) of the control room when compared to the left (inside out walls filled with fibreglass filled and material covered) should not really impact the ideal listening position (too much), assuming that the RFZ walls were set correctly? i.e., at that listening sweet spot in theory only direct sound from the monitors is being heard? Even if the above is not even remotely true ... :) ... then I was still thinking that it might still be worth having the ability/flexibility to dampen that right side of the control room to some extent when I have a live mic in the control room. With dampening in mind, and given that space is unfortunately tight, it seems that that a really thick theatre curtain though not perfect might offer some performance improvement and not get in the way. I know that it would do nothing for low frequency absorption and absorption would be reduced with no space behind the curtain when it is drawn (i.e., it would pull across the glass sliding door), but, still I was wondering if it would/could be a worthwhile? I may have mentioned this product earlier, I must admit this thread is so long now I do not remember or not! http://www.rosebrand.com/product1210/32 ... ur-FR.aspx The acoustic test data for it is at the following URLs: http://www.rosebrand.com/downloads/Rose ... 0Panel.pdf http://www.rosebrand.com/downloads/Acou ... encies.pdf I thought I may as well ask ... maybe even for a second time ... :) Cheers, Ben

Hey Ben, "slow progress" is a hell of a lot better than "no progress"! So this is good news... :)

In the meantime if you do see this post, I was wondering if it might be good to have the option to dampen the right hand glass wall a bit to even out the absorption before any post REW tweaking. As noted earlier the initial early REW tests both pre and post the rear wall diffusor were uneven. Am I right that the right side of the control room was more reflective?

Now you've got me! I was looking for your REW tests, but couldn't find them... I moved over to a new computer a couple of months back, so I guess they must be on the old one some place, but it's not working too well! :shock: So if you could put the complete set of tests on DropBox, I'll download them again and take a look, to see where you are. What you say sounds right, but I'd really like to check the data again.

I was still thinking that it might still be worth having the ability/flexibility to dampen that right side of the control room to some extent when I have a live mic in the control room.

That's not a bad idea, actually, and the product you linked to seems to have some quite decent acoustic properties. It's worth a try. But do make sure that when you are not using it, it will be stowed towards the BACK of the room, not towards the front! It will still be doing "acoustic stuff" even when it is all bunched up at one end of the rail, so that should be as far from your head as possible. I'd say go for it, and see what it does! If the specs are true, then you could get a decent and very usable effect. - Stuart -

Hi Stuart,

Hey Ben, "slow progress" is a hell of a lot better than "no progress"! So this is good news...

Yes I guess you are right ... :) Following is the Dropbox link and I have reattached the initial and current 0-800Hz waterfalls. Thanks !!! Please note there are a few readings in the file now. The reference first, then 3 x Apollo8P initial tests (no Lean Fuser but RFZ in place), next are about 10 or so readings with 200um plastic on the rear wall with various bass roll off settings. These 10 are still pre Lean Fuser and lead to the A7X bass being rolled off 100%. You also noted that the decay time was low for the room size at around 140ms when more like 200ms was expected. It is the last 3 settings in the REW file that reflect the current state with A7X bass 100% rolled off and the Lean Fuser is in place: https://www.dropbox.com/s/y1k1lvybonjht ... .mdat?dl=0

That's not a bad idea, actually, and the product you linked to seems to have some quite decent acoustic properties. It's worth a try. But do make sure that when you are not using it, it will be stowed towards the BACK of the room, not towards the front! It will still be doing "acoustic stuff" even when it is all bunched up at one end of the rail, so that should be as far from your head as possible. I'd say go for it, and see what it does! If the specs are true, then you could get a decent and very usable effect.

Cool, I'll get in touch with Rose Brand and see what I can work and will post back an update and any pics if it all goes ahead. I was hoping that to hang any absorptive curtains so that they can be totally packed away if needed and was wondering if a rod and ring mounting might work. They won't be all that wide or too heavy so I'd also hope to easily hand open and close if they were in place and if I did not need them I'd lift the rod and curtains off the brackets and store them. More soon, Ben

Putting a pin in here to thank you for keeping us all updated with what you're doing. I’m just here to give you e encouragement and to tell you that you're doing a great job. I'm still halfway reading through the thread, you weren't kidding when you said yourself that the whole thing has gotten so long that you can't remember the beginning of it. But it's a great log that I'm sure you'll look back on in pride when you're done with it all! [SPAM SIGNATURE REMOVED BY MODERATOR]

Hi Ben, I've been following your build for quite a while and have learned a lot by reading the discourse between yourself and Stuart. How are things coming along? A couple of questions for you. A while back you mentioned that you could hear some faint low frequency HVAC noise. Did you ever figure out where the noise was coming from? viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18654&start=90#p140339 Regarding the window in your live room. Did you use two separate frames to keep the inner and outer leaves decoupled, or is there one solid frame bridging the two leaves. This is a design element I'm researching for my own build at the moment. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18654&start=90#p139902 Good luck with your studio and congrats on all the amazing work you've done so far. Chris.

Hi Chris,

I've been following your build for quite a while and have learned a lot by reading the discourse between yourself and Stuart. How are things coming along?

Thanks! I am pleased to say that the desk that is housing all my gear is now complete and over the last week I have run power and most of the DB25 snakes from my gear to two Redco TT patchbays that I decided to invest in the time it has taken me to finish :) ... I do wish my day work would just get out of the way and just let me spend time in my studio space, but, alas work is stupid busy. I hope to post some pictures either tonight or later this week. I am still waiting on some "magic velour" material from the USA to use as moveable extra inner room treatment (i.e., curtains) over my glass sliding doors and also the window in the live room. The last job is to add the cover plates over the A7Xs and clean and organise. I almost have my project templates re-configured for Logic Pro too which is great. I had hoped to also reconfigure my Pro Tools install as well but that platform unfortunately needs to do some catching up to support aggregate devices before I can get back on board.

A while back you mentioned that you could hear some faint low frequency HVAC noise. Did you ever figure out where the noise was coming from? viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18654&start=90#p140339

It is either the sound of the air in the baffle box or potentially in the duct that is transferring into the baffle box and then to the registers. Either way it is faint due to the awesome information that went into the design and build. Information kindly supplied by Stuart and others across John's community forum. To hear the faint sound I have to climb a short ladder and put my ear right up against the register slots. Of course mics are another thing altogether and I would imagine that a solo instrument mix, featuring a single acoustic solo instrument, being tracked at ppp would require the HVAC to be turned off. I can live with that. But, if I were to do this again I guess I would look to increase the diameter of the HVAC duct, add inline silencers and redesign the baffle box cross sectional diameter to match.

Regarding the window in your live room. Did you use two separate frames to keep the inner and outer leaves decoupled, or is there one solid frame bridging the two leaves. This is a design element I'm researching for my own build at the moment. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18654&start=90#p139902

Correct the window is decoupled 100% (essentially). My outside leaf laminated glass window is fixed within the core filled block work. My inner leaf window frame reveal was built such that it only attached to the inner leaf frame, i.e., no part of the frame touched the outer leaf block work. It was fiddly, but that inner leader window reveal (that was fixed to the inner leaf frame) pulled up about 3mm short of the block work. Now I did do something to finish that may have compromised a tiny amount of isolation. I think what I am about to say is ok because the isolation between the studio space and upstairs (about 3.2m above) and also outside the block work downstairs is pretty amazing. When my noise meter is showing a fairly sustained 110dB downstairs I can not hear anything other than a faint sound of music upstairs. If the TV is on (even softly) then you would not know that there is anything going on downstairs at all and if the TV is loud upstairs there is zero chance of hearing that downstairs when the studio space is closed up. So what did I do? I ran a bead of GreenGlue Noise Proofing acoustic caulk around the 3mm gap left between the inner leaf window reveal and outer leaf block work window. This was done as part of finishing the space (reveal) across the windows and before the glass contractors came to install the inner leaf window. I guess I could have left that 3mm gap unfinished and I did think about that at the time. The glass contractors also installed the inner leaf window with silica gel traps inside the sealed air gap space and fitted it in such a way that if the sealed space does ever require servicing then that would be possible. It would most likely require the contractors to come back or to at least have specialist glass handling gear as the glass itself weighed about 70kg for 1.2m square. Imho getting a 100% silent HVAC solution inside the finished space is probably going to be trickier than achieving the required isolation between the space and the outside world. Of course I wish there was not a faint noise (as above) in my HVAC, but, it is faint, I am glad I did not go with splits and if worse comes to worse I can always turn off the HVAC. If I were super bugged by the faint sound, then in the future I could look to retrofit inline silencers back out side of the outer leaf where all the HVAC gear and air exchanger is. But, I would have to be super keen because the faint noise may not be due to duct noise showing up in the baffle and hence at the registers. If it is the baffle itself then I guess I could look to redesign the registers and see if that stops the noise 100%. I did design and build the baffle boxes so they can be pulled apart from the inside, but, that would not be a small job. My advice would be to take as much time as required in the HVAC design phase, try to find a really knowledgable local expert (preferably who has a good working relationship with the HVAC installer) who can also liaise with anyone who may be assisting on the forums and also be prepared to test noise performance during the install phase. I hope the above helps. Cheers, Ben

Hi, I thought I'd best post something after so much time! This weekend I finally got the covers finished for the A7Xs and put a few pics below. That just leaves a few bits of gear to patch in, come curtains and then hopefully some final testing and and any tweaks as part of starting to use my new space. I'll hopefully post again soon with pictures from something other than my iPhone, i.e., when the curtains are up and the space is clean. Work is still way too busy for my liking and that has been my main hold up. That's all for now.

Very neat, Ben! Very ingenious. I like the way you did those bezels. Precision work there, and the room is looking great! I-m really looking forward to seeing the REW results, and the tweaks. And also adding your thread to the "completed studios" list... - Stuart -

Noice. Very noice.

Hi Stuart, Sorry it has taken so long to get back about REW and my build etc. I finally got around to re-running REW tests and have attached some pictures below, plus I have added an updated .mdat file to Dropbox and have added a few shots of the studio space now that I have cleaned up a bit. There's no rush with the REW stuff as I am still trying to source the curtains I mentioned above. I'll get there but things have been a bit slow due to hurricanes in the USA. I have also been super swamped at work now the best part of 12 months. The good news there is that my contract will end in a few weeks and I will have 2 months free to take stock and start using the studio. With any luck that 2 months will slowly turn into a change back towards music over IT ... :) Here is the Dropbox .mdat link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/y9x9244qpg8ek ... .mdat?dl=0 Next are the three waterfall graphs for the latest left, right and both speaker tests. Please note that I re-ran the callibration process for the Apollo 8P that I am using again as I was not sure that I did that properly at the start due to so much time passing. Today's calibration graph is the 4th last graph and it matches the initial version at the top. So I guess I did get calibration correct. The .mdat file is 88MB now as there are quite a few readings. The ones from today are right at the bottom and are called Left, Right and Both with waterfall pics attached below. Can I ask what the peak just before 200Hz is and what is going on between 70-200Hz? Other than that, with the overlay of left and right on in REW I can see that after 200Hz it really does look as though something, most likely the difference between the glass sliding door on the right and the inside out treated left is showing a marked difference? As above I am really hoping that I can get hold of the curtain material mentioned above to see if I can hang that on the right side to even things out. Hence I'm not in a mad rush. For anyone following here are some recent pics from today after I have cleaned up. I still need to finalise the cabling at the rear of the desk over the next few weeks so that I can roll the desk around a little more easily. It may look like the desk is hard up toward the speakers, but there is a fairly comfortable 500mm to walk from the control room through to the live room on the right hand side. Thanks again for looking! Ben

Wow! That place looks GREAT, Ben! Nice work! So before going any further in the reply, I'm calling your place "Done!", and putting it at the top of the list, where it belongs.... viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5842 :thu:

I finally got around to re-running REW tests and have attached some pictures below, plus I have added an updated .mdat file to Dropbox

Cool! I'm downloading it now, . . .

Please note that I re-ran the callibration process

Are you SURE you calibrated to 80 dBC for each individual speaker? As laid out here? : viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21122 The graphs don't seem to be showing that, although it's hard to say for sure, with all that low-end ringing going on, and the high-end boost. It looks more like about 70 dBC, or maybe 75 dBC for each speaker. I'd suggest using your "tweeter level" controls to bring down the high end a bit: Try setting them to -3 dB on the left and -2dB on the right, for now, and see how that goes. Also turn down your left speaker's overall level by about 0.5 dB if you can. That's not easy to do, but try.

Can I ask what the peak just before 200Hz is

It could be modal, although it's unusually high for that. What are the final internal dimensions of your room? I mean the actual inner-leaf wall surfaces, not the face of the acoustic treatment. (I'm sure it's on your thread some place, but I'm too lazy to go hunting right now.... :) ) If it isn't modal, it might be some other resonance of something in the room, or something in the construction. It's quite sharply tuned, so something very resonant. The decay is also very linear, at a constant rate, which is strange. And since it only seems to have appeared in the last few tests, it's something that you did to the room between Feb 11 (the date of the previous test in this file) and Oct 8 (this test). Think back about what you added / removed / changed in the room between those dates. If you have other REW tests from in between, let's see those, along with photos from the same date, to see what changed, and what might be ringing like that. Did you add any pipes, ducts, or tubes that might now be resonant? Something hollow? Maybe one of those guitars hanging on the wall? Try repeating the test with nothing like that in the room.

and what is going on between 70-200Hz?

That could also be related to stuff in the room., although part of it is the typical SBIR issue commonly seen in small rooms, likely form the rear wall, or the floor, or the ceiling. Part of that is your 120 Hz buzz, and it is quite noticeable...: That's with a 1 second timeline on the Z axis, so you can clearly see it never dies away: it's electrical, or electronic... Perhaps a fan, or notebook power supply, or a hard disk, or something like that.

Other than that, with the overlay of left and right

There's not a huge difference between your channels: That shows the difference in SPL between the left and right speakers, smoothed very slightly. You can see that the curve is centered on 0 dB: above the line, the left speaker is louder, and below the line the right speaker is louder. Most of the "hash" in the mid range is likely due to your desk, console, and other gear, but there's only minor differences in the low end (it's +/- 3 dB below 250 Hz) and the high end (aprox +/- 3 dB above roughly 4 kHz). So that's not too bad, but the mid range isn't pretty... I'm thinking that the curtain isn't going to make a lot of difference here. There will be some difference, but your symmetry is reasonable as is. Anyway, there's some food for thought, and some things to try. I'd also like to see a pair of tests; one set with the door to the booth open, and one set with the door closed. - Stuart -

Fascinating. Keep up the good work guys.

Hi Stuart, Thanks for the information, I have read through quickly and will start working on a response tonight and hope to get that out asap. Thanks again so much for your help and guidance! and also for calling this bad boy finished :) ... I am really happy with how everything has turned out so far. Cheers, Ben

Hi Stuart,

Are you SURE you calibrated to 80 dBC for each individual speaker? As laid out here? : viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21122 The graphs don't seem to be showing that, although it's hard to say for sure, with all that low-end ringing going on, and the high-end boost. It looks more like about 70 dBC, or maybe 75 dBC for each speaker.

Yes and no! Yes I did carefully follow those very instructions and they were clear and straight forward to move through, but, I have re-run the same tests again this evening with the guitars gone and also a bass combo and a powered sub (neither being used) removed too. These two speaker boxes were sitting at the rear of the CR either side of the couch. Also, I feel a bit silly. As you noted above there was a hard drive or similar humming at 120Hz. I had stupidly left an old OWC platter disk external enclosure on that I brought down from upstairs a few weeks ago. Why did I not pay attention and hear that at the time I was running the tests. As soon as I got home from this arvo and turned everything on and thought ... mmm what can I hear around 120Hz the stupid thing was glaringly obvious! It is never allowed back in the studio space again! I also carefully re-checked my gain structure at the Apollo 8P and am reasonably sure it was too hot in the previous readings. This time at 80 dBC on my sound meter for REW noise the pre's input gain was definitely sitting consistently around -20 dbFS. REW also seemed to say that my .mdat was too large to save further measurements. So I have started a new REW file that only has the tests since the lean fuser went in, plus what I'd like to refer to now as "the dodgy measurements from last weekend" and now updated ones from this evening. I am quite sure these new readings are a vast improvement, more accurate and are visually much more closely related to the lean fuser REW tests earlier in this thread . Here is the new Dropbox link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vazgoiuuoys8w ... .mdat?dl=0

I'd suggest using your "tweeter level" controls to bring down the high end a bit: Try setting them to -3 dB on the left and -2dB on the right, for now, and see how that goes. Also turn down your left speaker's overall level by about 0.5 dB if you can. That's not easy to do, but try.

All the tests below have the A7X bass 100% rolled off left and right as per what we did with the REW tests following the lean fuser going in. This time I carefully set each speaker to 80 dBC using my sound meter and the left speaker did indeed get wound back slightly relative to the right. I have read that the output of speaker pairs can be slightly different and my my left speaker seems to be somewhere between 1-2dB louder at the same relative volume compared to the right. So the left volume was/is rolled off a bit relative to the right. I did not do the high end tests tonight as the physical changes to the room were dramatic, i.e., getting the stuff out the should never have been there. Please let me know if I should still run the -3 db left and -2 db right high end test too. I certainly can but will need to demount the speakers to get to the rear controls. That can be done but I ran out of time tonight.

It could be modal, although it's unusually high for that. What are the final internal dimensions of your room? I mean the actual inner-leaf wall surfaces, not the face of the acoustic treatment. (I'm sure it's on your thread some place, but I'm too lazy to go hunting right now.... :) ) If it isn't modal, it might be some other resonance of something in the room, or something in the construction. It's quite sharply tuned, so something very resonant. The decay is also very linear, at a constant rate, which is strange. And since it only seems to have appeared in the last few tests, it's something that you did to the room between Feb 11 (the date of the previous test in this file) and Oct 8 (this test). Think back about what you added / removed / changed in the room between those dates. If you have other REW tests from in between, let's see those, along with photos from the same date, to see what changed, and what might be ringing like that. Did you add any pipes, ducts, or tubes that might now be resonant? Something hollow? Maybe one of those guitars hanging on the wall? Try repeating the test with nothing like that in the room.

No nothing is new since the the lean fuser on the rear wall, other than 2 speaker boxes (unused bass combo and sub were either side of the couch), the guitars on the wall that you mentioned and the OWC drive. These were all removed for the updated tests and will remain out of the space for now while testing is being done. Of course there is a fairly large desk and gear sitting in the room now too though. Based on the new readings, I am confident the guitars, speaker boxes and OWC drive were the main culprits and probably less than stellar gain structure ... :oops:

That could also be related to stuff in the room., although part of it is the typical SBIR issue commonly seen in small rooms, likely form the rear wall, or the floor, or the ceiling. Part of that is your 120 Hz buzz, and it is quite noticeable...:

As above that is now gone in these tests. I'm so sorry can we please reset and pretend that the post above never happened ??? :mrgreen:

That's with a 1 second timeline on the Z axis, so you can clearly see it never dies away: it's electrical, or electronic... Perhaps a fan, or notebook power supply, or a hard disk, or something like that.

As above ... :cop: Left speaker with an empty room other than the couch, lean fuser and desk Right speaker with an empty room other than the couch, lean fuser and desk Both speakers with an empty room other than the couch, lean fuser and desk

There's not a huge difference between your channels

Great! I hope that is still the case with the "improved" measurements attached to this post.

That shows the difference in SPL between the left and right speakers, smoothed very slightly. You can see that the curve is centered on 0 dB: above the line, the left speaker is louder, and below the line the right speaker is louder. Most of the "hash" in the mid range is likely due to your desk, console, and other gear, but there's only minor differences in the low end (it's +/- 3 dB below 250 Hz) and the high end (aprox +/- 3 dB above roughly 4 kHz). So that's not too bad, but the mid range isn't pretty.

Hopefully the mid range hash/crazy is better with the guitars out of the space, I also assume that a ceiling cloud would help a bit here too by hopefully deflecting some of that mid range crazy away from the listening position towards the back wall?

I'm thinking that the curtain isn't going to make a lot of difference here. There will be some difference, but your symmetry is reasonable as is.

Ok, I am having trouble confirming the curtain material anyway. I'll keep seeing how I go there, but, I'll change my focus to a ceiling cloud instead. As above are these better readings still showing a reasonable symmetry?

I'd also like to see a pair of tests; one set with the door to the booth open, and one set with the door closed.

Last up, here is the same test as above but this time with the door to the live room open. Thanks again, Ben