Hi guys
i am currently working on a design for my studio (away from home) and have done a rough layout in Sketch-up 2013 (as shown below) but im a bit worried or concerned that the treatment i have placed is wrong place or perhaps the wrong type for the room sizes that are used.
Control room dimensions are - 14x13x7ft (the ceiling slops from 8ft down to 7ft in height)
now i know that the control room is square and i know this is bad, however i have angled the walls by the mixing area by 2ft 10" to try and make the room less square and 2 long absorber panels on the walls roughly centered on each side. (i am planning on making these walls in to bass traps if its possible) the floor is also carpeted due to not being able to do much to the floor.
The window is completely treated with the same absorption panels as the live room up to the top of the window and also behind the desk.
at the back of the room is 1 or 2 QRD(s) with 13 or 17 wells (same length as the sofa). do i need a QRD or will a skyline or diffusion foam panel be sufficient?
a further 2 Bass traps in the corners at the back of the room to help with the low end.
Live Room dimensions are - 18x20x8
again i know the dimensions (and also the picture) look square or bad dimensions however the left wall (bottom of the picture) has a very lite slope and causing the bottom of the room (by the drumkit) to be narrower than the top of the room, causing the room to be less square or help break up the reflections.
for the acoustic treatment, the room will be filled with the same acoustic tiles (that fill the window area in the control room) in a diamond shape alternating patterns (the tiles have grooves on them) which will also help break up the reflections.
becuase the floor in the Live room will be wooden laminate (fireboard placed down first with OSB and then the laminate flooring on top. could get away with the laminate flooring sitting on top of the fireboard) the ceiling will also be covered in the same tiles in the same formation still alternating the grooves.
Which leads me nicely to a few questions i have?
1. Are they any recomendations or other placement of treatment that could/should be applied to either room?
2. Is the treatment i have already thought about placed okay for the room?
wondering about if acoustic treatment is in the right place
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 18606.
Have you considered doing some testing to identify which frequencies in your room actually need to be controlled? The diamond panels look really nice, but don't do them just for looks. They need to serve a known / planned purpose.
Looking at your room dimensions, the 18* 20* 8, while it's close to a square... it's not a square. A small amount of distance can go a long way towards the room being good or bad. A Room Ratio: 1 : 2.25 : 2.5 actually comes out ok. The control room ratio though, Room Ratio: 1 : 1.85 : 2 isn't nearly as good. If you really can't make any adjustments to that, I'd seriously recommend that you test the space and treat based off those results.
Hi johnnie thanx for the reply
i have done alot of calculations with a few calculators, the perhaps i should have posted the results (sorry about that) and they roughly say for the control room that the frequencies group up between 170Hz and 230Hz and im trying to break these up so that there are not so clumped together, which to my knowledge diffusion helps with the break up of the sound although with that said because the frequencies are so close together i dont think it can be done completely.
we dont really have access to testing gear or software and we dont have any leeway in the sizes of the rooms. the only possible thing would be to take out the corridor and make the control room the same width as the live room which would give us - 13x18x7 which is a ratio of - 1 : 1.85 : 2.57 which is just as bad looking at the graphs - http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?p=5570
however tho giving it a bit of thought if the room dimension was - 13x14x8 the ratio would be - 1:1.62:1.75 which is alot better
and on the other hand if the dimensions were - 13x18x8 then the ratio would be - 1:1.62:2.25 which is equally as good. so i will have to check the ceiling to see where the start of the slope is from 8ft down to 7ft
apologies for the double post
ive been looking around on the internet at room analyst software and completely forgot about the Room Primerv2 post by DanDan
i have got a small diaphragm condenser but its a cardioid not able to work in Omni, out off curiosity would it readings still work with a cardioid pattern?
and where would the best placement for the mic?
Can anyone help me with this or is this another no, go away, and do it yourself sorta thing?
(appologies if that seems a harsh im a bit stressed right now)
Hi there "Daz12344", and welcome to the forum! :)
I'm really sorry that you didn't get many responses so far (except for Johnnie)! I've been involved full time in a project the last few weeks, and unable to even check the forum much, but the new hall was inaugurated on Saturday night, so I have a little more time on my hands today! (Before the next project hits me...).
Right! That's not a good set of dimensions. But you don't need to change it much to get a large improvement. For example, making it 16 x 12.5 x 7.5 would be a major change in modal response.Control room dimensions are - 14x13x7ft (the ceiling slops from 8ft down to 7ft in height) .... now i know that the control room is square and i know this is bad
Then you should use the average height for your calculations: so your height is 7.5 feet, not 7 feet.the ceiling slops from 8ft down to 7ft in height
I¿m not seeing that on your plan: the walls are all shown as parallel...i have angled the walls by the mixing area by 2ft 10" to try and make the room less square
Bass traps should go in corners, not on walls. All room modes terminate in corners, so that's the best, most effective place for bass trapping. Walls are good for broad-band mid-range absorption, but not so much use for bass trapping.i am planning on making these walls in to bass traps if its possible
Ooops! That needs to be fixed! Carpet is not much good in control rooms!the floor is also carpeted
Just plain absorption panels on the rear wall is all you need. That room is way too small to be able to use numeric-sequence diffusers.at the back of the room is 1 or 2 QRD(s) with 13 or 17 wells (same length as the sofa). do i need a QRD or will a skyline or diffusion foam panel be sufficient?
YEs, but they are in the wrong place! You have them in the MIDDLE of the corner, but they should be at the top and bottom (up at the ceiling, and down at the floor), where they have the most effect. Or even better still, make them full length traps, from floor to ceiling.a further 2 Bass traps in the corners at the back of the room to help with the low end.
You need to have an angle of at least 12° in order to break up flutter echo reflections. You can do that with any combination, such as angling both walls by 6° each, or one wall 9° and the other 3°, or any combination you like. As long as the total is more than 12°, then you will get results. Less than 12° does nothing useful.again i know the dimensions (and also the picture) look square or bad dimensions however the left wall (bottom of the picture) has a very lite slope and causing the bottom of the room (by the drumkit) to be narrower than the top of the room, causing the room to be less square or help break up the reflections.
calculations are one thing, but actual acoustic response is usually different. I think Johnnie was suggesting that you should do some actual tests in your room, with the REW acoustic software, to see how it is behaving right now, then design your treatment based on real results, not predicted results.i have done alot of calculations with a few calculators, the perhaps i should have posted the results
REW is free! You download it from the Home Theater Shack web site. It runs on any practically any PC, and also runs on some Macs. All you need in addition to that is a good studio speaker and a good omni-directional mic with flat response. That's it.we dont really have access to testing gear or software
It would not give you accurate results, but it could still give you a rough idea of how the room is working right now. But a good measurement mic is not expensive: you can get them for less than US% 100. And you WILL need one anyway, when you get to the point of actually treating the room. So you might as well buy it now, and do the initial "baseline" testing with it.i have got a small diaphragm condenser but its a cardioid not able to work in Omni, out off curiosity would it readings still work with a cardioid pattern?
For the control room, set it up in the exact place where your head will be while you are recording and mixing. For the live room, take several readings, and one of those should be with the speaker in one room corner while the mic is in the diagonally opposite room corner. Another reading with the speaker roughly where you will have instruments set up and the mic roughly where people might be listening. And a few more readings at typical places where people might be playing / listening. The idea is to get representative readings that show the overall response, so you can figure out if there are general problems that affect all locations and need major treatment, or other problems at specific locations that can be fixed perhaps even with movable acoustic panels, such as gobo's.and where would the best placement for the mic?
:) No problems! It can be frustrating when you start out and nobody seems to be helping! So it's fine to just "bump" your thread id you don't get a reply after a couple of days, or even PM me or one of the other mods, if more time has passed without a response. - Stuart -Can anyone help me with this or is this another no, go away, and do it yourself sorta thing? (appologies if that seems a harsh im a bit stressed right now)
Wow thanx for the response soundman2020 i had given up waiting for a response lol, but i do apologise for the delay in response. Ive been building the studio over the winter and we opened about just over a month now.
The studio looks very similar to the sketchup pic but with the rooms reversed, with the live room being the largest of the 2. The control room entrance and window partition is now inline with the edge of the cellar wall closet to the double doors (now a single door). I do wish i had some pictures of the place unfortunatly i dont have my camera with me so i would have taken some :)
anyway..... In regards to the acoustics of both rooms.
yes i quite agree, however would it be possible to use a wall at the back of the room and turn it into a Slat trap (or just on top of depending on the depth from the wall) but variate the slats&slots depth to create a specific broad band bass trap. I have seen a few very similar but not sure if they were specificly tuned or broadband :? you see i have referenced and also tested (with a bass amp and guitar) :jammin: , the resonance of the room by plucking a string at a certain note on the Bass guitar (tune to E standard). Using primarily the Low E string which i have found out that the 10th fret or D note (freq range between afaik is between 60 and 70hz) is resonating with the room and is amplifed when played meaning that the standing wave of the room is tuned to this note. Upon further inspection notes G and B also resonate with the room but not as defined as the D using just the Low E string. Unfortunatly i havent got round to using the REW in the Live room yet but i have gone over several calculators including: Bob Golds room ratio online calculator; AMROC - the room mode calculator (html/flash/javascript not sure, developed by Andy Melcher Alhough i am skeptical of its accuracy it does come with a handy audio note and freq option which is always useful :P); the eigenmodes calculator that uses visua display of high and low freq resonances found here - lhttp://www.hunecke.de/en/calculators/r ... odes.html; Using the formular found here @audioholics - http://www.audioholics.com/room-acousti ... coustics-1, including knowledge and also notes and courseswork from previous basic acoustics course part of my Music Production course @college years ago, i have managed to calculate the critical frequency of the room, which afaik, any thing above this frequency will not directly be be affected by the standing waves caused by the fundamental freq of the room. Which in this case is 24/25hz and the critical frequency is 203hz. (figures are rounded up to nearest whole frequency) Now the live room measures are as below since the rooms have been switched: Length = 6m 91cm Width = 4m 96cm Height = i beleive the avg. is 2m 47cm since the room starts from 2m 60cm and slopes down to 2m 34cm (sorry if im wrong) I am puzzled on what sort of bass trapping to use to try and clear up the low end effectively. 1. I could use already made bass trapping solutions by such companies as GIK, Permacoustics and so on, however the budgt is extremely tight atm :/ 2. 3 Helmholtz Perforated Trap (holes) and tune it to 24/25hz or 48hz and hopeful tame the harmonics in the series 3. 3 big Panel Broadband traps that ethan winner sugests about 24" across link here - http://audioundone.com/do-it-yourself-bass-traps 4. The other trap that Ethan Winner suggests on the same Page which is the membrane absorber with the plywood front. I have actually got 45mm x45mm acoustic foam tiles in the room at the moment and have done a great job of taming the mids and highs in the room as well as "deadning" the room but space as not to take too much "liveness" out of the room so verb still sounds natural. http://www.acoustic-foam.co.uk/ Now i understand it isnt very easy to advise with out technical information or pictures and graphs etc, However given the information i have provided what would advise in the current situation in terms of effectively treating the low end of the room? Id be great to hear from John or the other moderates on their throughts about this. CheersWalls are good for broad-band mid-range absorption, but not so much use for bass trapping.
While it is possible to tune a slot wall to be a broadband absorber, it is not easy to tune it down low enough, or have a large enough volume, for it to be an effective bass trap. I also would not use a slot wall across the rear of a control room: that wall should be mostly absorptive, not mostly reflective.would it be possible to use a wall at the back of the room and turn it into a Slat trap (or just on top of depending on the depth from the wall) but variate the slats&slots depth to create a specific broad band bass trap. I have seen a few very similar but not sure if they were specificly tuned or broadband
A bass guitar cannot tell you much useful acoustic information about at room, except to show that you have at least one problem, and it is close to one of the notes. You really need to do the REW test to find out how many problems you have, where they are, and how bad they are, in terms of exact frequency, phase, amplitude and decay responses.you see i have referenced and also tested (with a bass amp and guitar) :jammin: , the resonance of the room by plucking a string at a certain note on the Bass guitar (tune to E standard). Using primarily the Low E string which i have found out that the 10th fret or D note (freq range between afaik is between 60 and 70hz) is resonating with the room and is amplifed when played meaning that the standing wave of the room is tuned to this note. Upon further inspection notes G and B also resonate with the room but not as defined as the D using just the Low E string.
y Why? It seems fine to me! Have you found a specific issue? If so, then let me know and I'll tell Andy, so he can fix it.AMROC - the room mode calculator (html/flash/javascript not sure, developed by Andy Melcher Alhough i am skeptical of its accurac
Yes, that one is useful for seeing where the peaks and nulls fall in the room, so you can correctly position targeted treatment.the eigenmodes calculator that uses visua display of high and low freq resonances found here
I think you need to check your calculations! The Schroeder frequency for your room (critical frequency) is 129hz: Bob Golds' also shows it.including knowledge and also notes and courseswork from previous basic acoustics course part of my Music Production course @college years ago, i have managed to calculate the critical frequency of the room, ... and the critical frequency is 203hz.
Not really. The Schroeder frequency is the mid point of the transition zone between modal dominance and reflective/diffusive dominance. Modes are still relevant for at least one octave above Schroeder, and diffusion/reflection are still relevant down to at least one octave below.which afaik, any thing above this frequency will not directly be be affected by the standing waves caused by the fundamental freq of the room. Which in this case is 24/25hz
Not correct. The lowest modal frequency for your room is 40.4 HZ, which is your 1,0,0 axial mode. That is the one that occurs between the front and rear walls. The room has no modal support lower than that. The next highest mode is your 0,1,0 axial at 43.5 Hz, which is across the width of the room. The comes the width/length tangential (1,1,0) at 59.3 Hz, followed by the one that is probably causing one of the issues you are hearing: your 0,0,1 axial mode, at 75.3 Hz. That is your fundamental height mode, a standing wave forming between the ceiling and floor. There's another dozen or so after those that are still potential problems, before the modal density gets to be reasonably high.the fundamental freq of the room. Which in this case is 24/25hz
The best, most effective, and least expensive is superchunks in the corners, or at the very least 703 straddling the corners.I am puzzled on what sort of bass trapping to use to try and clear up the low end effectively.
That would not work: Firstly, because you don't have any modes at 24 or 48 Hz, secondly because you don't have enough spare volume to be able to treat those modes effectively (you need at least 1% of the room volume per trap to do that), and thirdly because it is extremely difficult to tune resonant traps to hit the exact frequency of any specific mode: Modes are normally very narrow band, perhaps 1/48 octave or even narrower, and building a device to be that accurate at such low frequencies is a daunting task. There's also the issue of how you would even measure the exact frequency accurately enough, to start with...2. 3 Helmholtz Perforated Trap (holes) and tune it to 24/25hz or 48hz and hopeful tame the harmonics in the series
panel traps are once again tuned devices, and suffer from the same issues as Helmholtz traps. The do have a bit lower Q, so you'd stand a better change there, but you'd still need a very large area and volume to treat each of the modes, leaving no space at all for general broadband absorption or other treatment. What you need is the FIRST diagram on Ethan's page: A simple piece of 703 straddling the corner of the room: that is effective down to quite low frequencies. And if you do a proper superchunk the same size, that is even more effective.3 big Panel Broadband traps that ethan winner sugests about 24" across link here
A membrane trap with no membrane is just a broadband absorber! :)4. The other trap that Ethan Winner suggests on the same Page which is the membrane absorber with the plywood front.
Those are fine for that purpose, but not nearly thick enough of big enough for broadband bass trapping.I have actually got 45mm x45mm acoustic foam tiles in the room at the moment and have done a great job of taming the mids and highs in the room
As I mentioned above, the simplest treatment is a full sheet of OC-703 placed diagonally across each of the room corners, floor to ceiling, and at least 24" wide. 36" is even better. And if you can stretch your budget further, the most effective bass trap is the "Superchunk", which is made by stacking triangles of OC-703 in the room corners, stacked floor to ceiling, and measuring 36" across the diagonal. - Stuart -Now i understand it isnt very easy to advise with out technical information or pictures and graphs etc, However given the information i have provided what would advise in the current situation in terms of effectively treating the low end of the room?