Status: Have been occupied with other stuff but have now started the print.
Heat sink in progress :D
New (Small Home Studio) Build, Norway
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 18593.
3d print of amp finished. I would say that’s close enough. Let the Assembly begin.
Hi everyone.
Ok, so have finally finished mounting the speakers back in place. Also, now with the right tension on all the Sorbothane. When testing the actual sound, I can hear allot more base coming from the speakers so hopefully the 3d print did the trick. Let’s hope the measurement does the same. In regard to the last measurement (forth) the had to be something wrong with the settings on my sound lever meter when setting up the calibration. That’s the only explanation I could find. So, I marked that measurement as a faulty one. This time I have doubled check everything so hopefully everything I correct setup on this measurement. Any help/tips in regard to analysing the measurement will be highly appreciated.
Find attached mdat file below.
Fifth measurement
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Treatment:
Added 3d printed amp inside the speaker box.
Added slab of insulation horizontally across the slats at the mix height
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mdat: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1CyxJy ... BRj1dZnCz9
-------------------------------------------------------------------
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1. First measurement
Treatment: None
post: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18593&start=45#p148378
mdat: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1aLSah ... WIHeCV7K8R
2. Second measurement.
Treatment: Soffit mounted speaker ( + concrete block added in speaker for weight ), ceiling cloud and side wall slats.
post: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18593&start=90#p152103
mdat: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1WnNAl ... vEPFTKL7gM
3. Third measurement.
Treatment: Removed concrete block from right side speaker.
post: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18593&start=90#p152142
mdat: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1C27Lk ... er9UD0rYpB
Crazy. I'm kind of at a loss here. Your SPL issue hasn't really been resolved. Either has your reflection issue. However, strangely the time domain response has improved!
Does anyone else have any other suggestions short of just buying a sub woofer!?!
The insulation didn't seem to fix the issue. For sure the panel holding the lights in your cloud isn't the cause of that reflection (I know you went hardcore with the string trick and appeared to do everything correctly)?
I hate to see you work so damned hard and do everything correctly and still not see great results. I'm sorry!
Lastly, how are you feeling about the short time domain response of the room?
Greg
Yes, its crazy. And it a bit weird that there is no change because I hear more base than before. Is there a chance that my measurements are bad? Could you give some example print screens from the room EQ. just for my curiosity? I’m still a bit confused how you guys find some of this stuff in the graphs and I really want to learn.Crazy. I'm kind of at a loss here. Your SPL issue hasn't really been resolved. Either has your reflection issue. However, strangely the time domain response has improved!
Here will be the same as above. How to you see in the EQ tool that there is still reflection and where. What I could do is try to do multiple measurement and recheck the results as I move along the string and use isolations on various point until I find the spot that is casing the issue. Then do measurements again. Eventually I must find the spot?The insulation didn't seem to fix the issue. For sure the panel holding the lights in your cloud isn't the cause of that reflection (I know you went hardcore with the string trick and appeared to do everything correctly)?
No worries my friend. :D It is not your fault. It is probably something weird I have done wrong. We will crack this mystery eventually. “Easy and straight forward” - What’s the fun in that?I hate to see you work so damned hard and do everything correctly and still not see great results. I'm sorry!
Do you mean the low decay time? I know Stuart was shooting for about 250 in my room. It was initially about 150. We added allot more reflection surfaces. And I know he also planned that we should do more reflection in the cloud. I think in the initial drawings he added solid surface in both my clouds. But I did it with insulation only. I could add solid surface to try to increase the time even more. The room feels ok and WAY better then before I started the with the room threetment. Thanks again Greg for helping me out. You rock! :jammin: -Bjorn-Lastly, how are you feeling about the short time domain response of the room?
Doubtful.Is there a chance that my measurements are bad?
Sure! Here is your LR SPL for your second measurement and your latest (5th). The blue is the 5th measurement.Could you give some example print screens from the room EQ. just for my curiosity? I’m still a bit confused how you guys find some of this stuff in the graphs and I really want to learn.
You should aim to have no reflection above 20dB. I've cross haired the culprit on your right speaker 5th measurement.Here will be the same as above. How to you see in the EQ tool that there is still reflection and where.
:thu:What I could do is try to do multiple measurement and recheck the results as I move along the string and use isolations on various point until I find the spot that is casing the issue. Then do measurements again. Eventually I must find the spot?
Yes. Right now you're averaging around 100ms only! But, I know your room is pretty small. Can you go dump your dimensions into Bob Golds Room Mode Calculator and see what the RT60 says just for fun? GregDo you mean the low decay time?
You would probably need a sub with those speakers regardless of how they're mounted if you want to get a full picture of the entire audible spectrum.
Does the plastic amp print weight the same as the real amp? My guess is no. Maybe the lower density could be having an effect on how the speaker box is responding?
Have you contacted Presonus before attempting to soffit mount these monitors? Chances are that you're either the only or one of very few to ask about flush mounting that monitor and they won't really be sure if you can flush mount it or not. But it couldn't hurt to ask and maybe even ask to speak to an engineer and maybe get some useful info.
You may have answered this already but was there a particular acoustical reason that Stuart suggested removing the amps from box? I've seen threads where he and John Sayers have done it with success but plenty others where it wasn't necessary. Is it really "necessary" in this design or is it just a luxury? Maybe keeping the amp in the box would be the way to go.
I wouldn't worry so much about the short decay response as I would worry about even/equal response time across the frequency spectrum. If I recall correctly Thomas Jouanjean posted a spectogram on Gearslutz with the decay barely touching 200ms down to around 30hz and most people agree that his rooms are about as good as it gets. This is a very small room so I think a sub 200ms decay would be expected in order to achieve an even decay.
My guess is that Stuart figured that extending lower mid/mid/upper decay times to match the low end decay times in this particular room would be more achievable than trying to control the lows without the necessary space. In the end only testing can really tell.
Sorry if some of these questions have already been explored. Just trying to give you some ammo to move forward. I know how it feels to work hard and then get stuck! :shock:
Hi jonkr
Thanks a lot for commenting.
Yes, I have started to realize that myself. But I have decided to change the speakers. Enough is enough. I am using the studio space now. Getting to know it. And I love the place. The feeling of using it finally after all these years is great. And it sounds nice considering. I have started the research and will use some time to find and save cash for the right speakers.You would probably need a sub with those speakers regardless of how they're mounted if you want to get a full picture of the entire audible spectrum.
Yes, it does. This part I did right. Not all the parts are 3d printed. The back plate is thick aluminum and the some of the other parts like the transformer I have used materials to match the sum weight.Does the plastic amp print weight the same as the real amp? My guess is no. Maybe the lower density could be having an effect on how the speaker box is responding?
Yes, I did talk to Persons and they said, “hell no”. Put that was after Stuart said otherwise and left the forum leaving me stuck.Have you contacted Presonus before attempting to soffit mount these monitors? Chances are that you're either the only or one of very few to ask about flush mounting that monitor and they won't really be sure if you can flush mount it or not. But it couldn't hurt to ask and maybe even ask to speak to an engineer and maybe get some useful info.
Yes, he wanted me to remove them so that the amp would be available to edit settings. He said that it was a bad idea to leave them on as you could not edit settings on them. He said that he normally took them out / rewired them and placed them in the front. He also said that it would cause a weight issue and I needed to add concrete blocks in them to compensate but that story is already explained in details in earlier posts.You may have answered this already but was there a particular acoustical reason that Stuart suggested removing the amps from box? I've seen threads where he and John Sayers have done it with success but plenty others where it wasn't necessary. Is it really "necessary" in this design or is it just a luxury? Maybe keeping the amp in the box would be the way to go.
That is what Stuart said as well. He was shooting for 200 if I remember correctly. And I am ok with that.I wouldn't worry so much about the short decay response as I would worry about even/equal response time across the frequency spectrum. If I recall correctly Thomas Jouanjean posted a spectogram on Gearslutz with the decay barely touching 200ms down to around 30hz and most people agree that his rooms are about as good as it gets. This is a very small room so I think a sub 200ms decay would be expected in order to achieve an even decay. My guess is that Stuart figured that extending lower mid/mid/upper decay times to match the low end decay times in this particular room would be more achievable than trying to control the lows without the necessary space. In the end only testing can really tell.
That is perfectly fine. I really appreciate getting feedback and tips. Keep them coming. I will continue the tuning as soon as I have changed the speakers. In the meantime, I’m a musician again.Sorry if some of these questions have already been explored. Just trying to give you some ammo to move forward. I know how it feels to work hard and then get stuck! :shock:
I do agree with Stuart that those speakers should work fine soffit mounted. I do not agree with the concrete block in them though. I'm glad to hear that you're using the room and enjoying it after all of your hard work!
What speakers are you going to get?
Greg
I have not decided yet. I have started to look around but have not used much time yet with the details. I was thinking maybe starting a new thread on the forum for some monitor discussions for my studio or maybe having a discussing on this thread. Anyway, if you or anyone have any suggestions for new speakers let me know. The price range should be between approx. 500 – 2000 $. And should have the possibility to detach the amp for wall mount. 8) BjornWhat speakers are you going to get? Greg
APS Klasik 2020
https://www.aps-company.com/klasik-2020-en/
I have the older version flush mounted in my room and they sound great.
I contacted APS before installing and they said flush mounting should work fine, and it did.
I didn’t removed the rear panel/amplifier as APS recommended to simply leave it in passive mode..
I have a Klark Teknik parametric eq in-line before the monitors for control.
The old ones ran about $1200/pair and I believe these are the same price. The company is located in Poland, so you should have access to them, though I don’t believe they are available yet in all areas.
The front of the speaker baffle is rounded but I ordered direct from the company and they made me a pair with the front squared off for easier flush mounting.
In my experience/tests they would also work well in extended bass mode. But I already had a nice focal sub so I kept them in passive mode to let the sub take on some of the work load.
Thanks, jonkr for the suggestion. I will look into them :DAPS Klasik 2020 https://www.aps-company.com/klasik-2020-en/
Hi all
It has been a long time sins the last post and the last time I did construction in the studio. It has been a good time getting to know the space and I am now slowly starting phase two of the build and hopefully finishing it up by the end of next year. Also found the problem with the missing bass from the measurements. I found that there was a setting on the speakers that sets a low cut at 80 Hz if you have a sub. Well, it seems that it was active during the last test. :ahh: ...Anyway, during this no build period I have done many mixes and have found that I do not like them that much so I am in the process of changing them in this next run. Wall mounted amps have been cancelled which will make it easier to select the right pair suited to my space. Starting with these Neumann KH 120 A which I have borrowed and will test them during the holidays. Cannot wait to test them out. I will post measurements of them as soon as I got them up and running. Also I will post the last measurements I did with the right settings on the speakers.
-- Bjorn –
Merry Christmas everyone
New measurement done with correct settings on my current speakers. The measurement was done based on description here:
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =3&t=21122
My gear setup:
Mic: PreSonus PRM-1
Sound level meter: Extech-407732
Calibration:
Calibration REW to sound card done as explained in the REW help section. Calibration file is the same as done on a previous measurement.
Find attached mdat file below.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1M2zHdA ... sp=sharing
See picture below where the last measurement with the wrong amp settings compares to the latest measurement with correct settings.
Note
You can find my previous measurement / calibration file here
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
-- Bjorn --
Here is dump of my dimentions from the Bob Golds Room Mode Calculator [CSV FILE] https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FoZbHH ... sp=sharing [EXCEL FILE] https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HDcOFe ... sp=sharing --Bjorn--Yes. Right now you're averaging around 100ms only! But, I know your room is pretty small. Can you go dump your dimensions into Bob Golds Room Mode Calculator and see what the RT60 says just for fun? Greg
Tested the Neumann KH 120 A today. Awesome speakers. Not sure if they are the right ones for me though.
Here is the measurement of the Neumann KH 120 A outside the soffits.
[mdat file]
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qeAnOB ... sp=sharing
-- Bjorn --