Our Place [Design/Layout]

Hello everyone, We are a small group of engineers/musicians who have decided to build a recording studio. We have just rented a space on the top floor of a building in the city centre. We hope to incorporate a live room, control room, a secondary smaller iso/drum room and hopefully a small lounge area with tea facilities etc. We don't need complete isolation from the rest of the building just between our rooms, no neighbours to annoy :) Our space is 24.5ft [L] x 30ft [W] x 13ft [H] a total of 270.5 m3 We have a total budget of £10,000, that includes the final fixing, furnishings etc, anything less than 10k is a bonus, maybe more outboard :yahoo: Here are a few photos of what we have to work with... Ok, so we have our space and would love to start the build asap, but first some sort of floor plan is needed. Using Sketchup is slow and painful work for me but i managed to knock up the idea we had for a layout. But first here is the floor space of our spot... And the layout idea.. I tried to get the file size under 500kb by removing the furniture etc from the .skp but its still not small enough to post, sorry :oops: We were going to float the control room only and build our rooms and floated control room like the design below but with an added layer of plasterboard either side. Maintaining a nicely sealed air gap worries me but i'm sure we can get into that later :wink: We where also thinking of just keeping the main live rooms floor concrete, buffed and polished with large rugs to take the edge off, but keep the walls the same as shown above. We would love to achieve a great "live" sound in this space, floating the drums and maybe amps on plinth if necessary. We would love to take advantage of the huge windows and incorporate them into our build for natural light but struggle to see how. I also think the windows are being replaced by double glazed PVC ones before work begins. Questions 1/ Is there a more effective floor plan design for this space? What would you do with it? 2/ Is the 2 leaf air sealed cavity design going to give us the best possible isolation between our rooms? 3/ Does floating the control room give us greater isolation between our live rooms? 4/ Would building our frame to angle into the brickwork around the windows be a good way to incorporate them in our design? I was thinking maybe a stage curtain or shutter/slot resonator doors built into the frame with fabric covered insulation secured to the back of each so when opened we get the natural light and when closed they become a functional part of the room. Anyways, if you see anything that i have mentioned, or not, that would concern you we would love to hear from ya. I cant believe this is actually going ahead and not just fizzling out like most things, cant wait! :yahoo: Cheers.

Attached picture quite hard to read detail and I can't view the skp file coz I still use sketchup 8. I can't get my render plug in to work with sketchup 2013 and I feel it's buggy so I downgraded back to sketchup 8. I believe most of member here still use version 8. you can save as to make it compatible with older versions the option is here on a mac (should be similar on windows) try to removed and purge unused components and save as sketchup 3 you might get skp file under 500KB The shape of control room looks OK to me. Corner plan is great idea for square area (or space that's almost square shape like yours) It's best use of space. In my opinion live room has - 2 very sharp corners. Those corner can not be use and low frequency will build up - parallel walls can allow sound waves to reflect back and forth and cause flutter echoes issue If I were you I would get rid of those corners with some kind of corner treatment and unparallelled those walls Maybe something like this Facts About floating floor you might need to read this subject http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... f=2&t=8173 sorry if you've read it Cheers -Ken

Thanks for the quick reply Ken, still trying to figure the software out but we got the file below 500kb Great info on the parallel walls and the post about the floating floor, it really made us revise our plans and now we plan only to float the 'stage' in the control room. We are also taking your advice on the redesign of the walls which eliminate the sharp corners and parallel walls, its much better, thanks. We are also worried about building onto the brick walls and using them as some reflective surfaces in the rooms, it would also look great as an interior design feature but we are concerned about loosing isolation building this way as we don't see how we can maintain an air gap but it would save on materials and we could benefit acoustically. We were looking into HVAC systems and came to the conclusion that a mini split system with a supply to the control room and both live rooms would do the job but we're afraid it might eat into our budget but cant find a more affordable way to do it properly. In your experience do you think 10k would be enough to build this studio or are we asking for too much? Thanks again Ken, very much appreciated.

You're welcome Conor :D

We are also worried about building onto the brick walls and using them as some reflective surfaces in the rooms, it would also look great as an interior design feature but we are concerned about loosing isolation building this way as we don't see how we can maintain an air gap but it would save on materials and we could benefit acoustically.

This is depend on noise level in your area. You can build another layer of brick wall and you will get better STC rating

We were looking into HVAC systems and came to the conclusion that a mini split system with a supply to the control room and both live rooms would do the job but we're afraid it might eat into our budget but cant find a more affordable way to do it properly.

I'm not HVAC guy I normally design to locate ducts and let HVAC experts do the job. :lol: You might find your answer about HVAC here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4384

In your experience do you think 10k would be enough to build this studio or are we asking for too much?

If your location is not too noisy 10k might be enough but I don't know how things cost in your country. If I were you. I'd contact local store (Home depot) ask for price list. (or try to find it on the internet) The list will tell you "Cost per square Feet/meter" after you create 3D use sketchup to find area of each surface and times area with cost per square feet then SUM everything in Excel. I've been drawing your plan today. If this is my studio I would build something like this. You might not like it coz it eat into live room A quite a lot but the reason I design it this way is balancing. I've tried to make control room balance left and right from front through back (both sides are equal). Then I found that there is a lot of room behind control room. So I decide to use it as Amp booth or storage so you can keep things organized. This is just my personal opinion. It's ok if you don't agree with me. I saw many studios don't balance rearpart such as this john's design Cheers - Ken

Hey Ken, again, thanks for your time mate. We have decided on doing a 2 leaf steal frame construction with the plasterboard decoupled from the metal stud and the widest air gap our/your ;-) design allows. We will have a minimum of 2 sheets of plasterboard decoupled from the framing, all the walls will be built onto the concrete floor with this method of getting an airtight seal Here.. In the video above he mounts the track to timber, i wonder if the same can be done to on concrete? Hope so! Here is a 3D model of our place as best we could possibly get it, being complete noobs with Sketchup its a bit rough around the edges but it gets the idea across... Here is the.Skp There are no neighbours about us but we have to consider the noise from the street below, the main bus stops for the west of the city are out our drum room and live room windows, busses will be driving past all day, even though we are four floors up and have pretty thick walls some tests will be needed first. When we go down next we will set up a few condensers and see. Your design with the storage in the CR is great just hard for us to recreate accurately in 3D, it also took just a bit to much space of the live room :cry: what do you think of the 3D attempt? Hope our real walls don't turn out as wonky haha. Anyway, until the landlord puts in the new pvc windows and guts the space we are in limbo researching and reading as much as we can, we just started to source materials and labour. We also have a few skilled trades men onboard who we know and trust to take their time with us. Ceilings next. We have to take advantage of the hight we've got, its 13' to the slab above, so nice high angled ceilings are on the table...

Layout looks OK. I can see what you have in mind I'd like to help you draw accurate plan but now I'm not sure what are exact dimensions of you space :lol: because 3 files you have uploaded do not have same dimensions :shock: :!: :?: Such as from bottom left corner to chimney first file 12' 2nd file about 14' latest file about 9' :shock: angle of corners are not equal too. Draw a accurate basic space to scale (just simple 2D plan) if you can't draw it right in sketchup. You can draw by hand. Show exact dimensions and angles(degree) in the drawing. scan or take the picture and upload it then I'm going to help you with the plan and 3D :D Cheers - Ken

Sorry about that m8, our first measurements where wrong around the chimney breast :oops: This plan is accurate, around the windows, chimney breast, ceiling height, length of walls, just our bare room. Cheers.

Hi Connor, and welcome! :)

We don't need complete isolation from the rest of the building just between our rooms,

You can't have one without the other, unfortunately: Isolating your rooms form each other also means that they must be isolated from the outside world.

no neighbours to annoy

Your very first photo shows a view out the window, and clearly visible is another building just a few meters away: Are you sure the people who live/work in that building don't consider themselves to be your "neighbours" and wont be "annoyed" by the noise you make? :)

We have decided on doing a 2 leaf steal frame construction

.. but you aren't showing that in your SketchUp model! You show only walls between rooms, but not the walls around the edges of the space, that should be there to complete each of your rooms. 2-leaf isolation refers to the entire room, not just some of the walls. It has to be a complete shell, which is why it is often referred to as "room-in-a-room" construction: picture that you are building a complete, separate structure for each of the new rooms, inside the existing room. each new room consists of the four walls (or maybe more than four walls, if you have an unusual shape) AND the ceiling. You aren't showing the new ceilings, either. So I would suggest adding those corrections to your model, then posting it again.

We where also thinking of just keeping the main live rooms floor concrete, buffed and polished with large rugs to take the edge off, but keep the walls the same as shown above. We would love to achieve a great "live" sound in this space,

Exactly! That is, indeed, the best way to do it. Floating floors are seldom needed.

floating the drums and maybe amps on plinth if necessary.

Not sure what you mean by "plinth", but take a look at Glenn's design for a drum riser, and do something like that. Very effective, low cost, looks good. You can do the same for amps.

We would love to take advantage of the huge windows and incorporate them into our build for natural light but struggle to see how. I also think the windows are being replaced by double glazed PVC ones before work begins.

Bad idea to use ordinary double glazing! That is not meant for isolating studios, and will not isolate low frequency sounds. Double glazing is meant for isolating typical city and residential sounds, which are mostly in the mid and high frequency range, and they are pretty good at that, but they do not isolate low frequencies, such as drums, bass guitars, the low end of the keyboard, electric guitars, etc. Instead of buying typical double glazing units, what you need to do is to replace the existing windows with one thick pane of laminated glass, then install another similar pieces of glass in the inner-leaf, in front of each of those. And of course, none of those windows can be operable: they all have to be fixed and sealed.

2/ Is the 2 leaf air sealed cavity design going to give us the best possible isolation between our rooms?

Absolutely yes, if you do it right! But you aren't doing it right.... :)

3/ Does floating the control room give us greater isolation between our live rooms?

Yes it does, but you very likely do NOT need to do that, since a concrete slab on grade is already pretty darn good. Floating a floor is a major task, and expensive, and really hard to do right. It's nowhere near as simple as just plonking down a few 2x4s on a couple of rubber pads, then slapping some OSB on top...

4/ Would building our frame to angle into the brickwork around the windows be a good way to incorporate them in our design?

The brickwork is your outer leaf, and will not be visible at all once the inner leaves are in place. The windows will end up as two-leaf as well., not single leaf as you show them currently.

I was thinking maybe a stage curtain or shutter/slot resonator doors built into the frame with fabric covered insulation secured to the back of each so when opened we get the natural light and when closed they become a functional part of the room.

Curtains do not provide isolation, and are only useful for treatment of high frequencies, not mids or lows, so that wouldn't work. Slot resonators require sealed cavities to work: If the cavity is not sealed, then all you have is wood slats, not resonators. And the entire inner-leaf itself must be sealed air-tight too, which isn't possible with a curtain or a slot resonator that opens.

now we plan only to float the 'stage' in the control room.

"Stage in the control room"??? :shock: Why do you want a stage in the control room? Who will be "performing" on the stage?

We are also worried about building onto the brick walls and using them as some reflective surfaces in the rooms, it would also look great as an interior design feature

It would like nice.... but it can't be done if you need isolation. Or rather, it can only be done if you also build the inner leaf using brick, or make it all glass. Probably not really options!

but we are concerned about loosing isolation building this way as we don't see how we can maintain an air gap

Right: You can't.

We were looking into HVAC systems and came to the conclusion that a mini split system with a supply to the control room and both live rooms would do the job

A mini-split system will do HALF of the job: It takes care of the air-conditioning part (cooling/dehumidifying), but it does not take care of the other half: ventilation. You still need ducts, fans and silencers to bring in fresh air and exhaust the stale air.

do you think 10k would be enough to build this studio or are we asking for too much?

The best way to find out if your budget is realistic, is to call up a couple of local building contractors and ask about their flat rate per square meter for converting an unfinished basement or garage into a home theater or "granny flat". Add about 20% to that rate, and you are in the ballpark. You have about 720 square feet and 10k to do it: that makes for about 14 pounds per square foot: I fear that is very much on the low side. I have no idea what building costs are like in Belfast, but I would suspect that the going rate is much higher than that. Of course, if you do all the work yourself (or most of it) that can reduce the costs substantially, and if you look around carefully for sales on building materials, overstocks, second hand materials (from demolition sites), and such like, you can reduce your costs even further. Another option might be to just build the control room now, then build the other rooms later as more funds become available. However, on the down side, you are also building very complex shaped rooms, which will greatly increase labor costs and material costs too, as well as slowing down the construction. If you stick to just plain rectangular shaped rooms, and plan carefully (so that walls are always multiples of 1.2m long, and exactly 2.4m high, for example, thus matching standard drywall, stud, and plywood sizes) then you can reduce costs, minimize material wastage, and move much faster.

We will have a minimum of 2 sheets of plasterboard decoupled from the framing,

Why? If you are building separate frames for each leaf, then you do not also need to decouple the drywall (plasterboard) from the farming. Once it is decoupled, then trying to decouple again only wastes time and money, but does not accomplish anything extra acoustically.

all the walls will be built onto the concrete floor with this method of getting an airtight seal

:lol: sorry, but I had to laugh! Those guys are doing so many things wrong that it is beyond funny: sad, actually. They are "floating" their floor on 2x2 joists ( :!: ) on rubber pucks, they have not sealed their masonry, there are several penetrations visible in the outer leaf, they carefully put MLV ( ! ) (not rubber...) "isolation" under the sole plate with gaps in it, then screw right through it, then they directly couple their inner-leaf wall studs to the outer-leaf ceiling joists! And when you see one guy cutting metal with an angle grinder, with no gloves, bare legs, no eye protection, no ear protection, and not even clamping the workpieces, while the other guy is wearing sneakers, no hard hat, and standing on the top rung of a ladder that is too short, then you really have to wonder about sanity, in addition to acoustic design skills! I'd say that's a really good example of how NOT to build a studio! Or "How to build a studio if you want to wast a lot of money and time and get a lousy result". Sorry, but that's just not the way it is done. Bad design, seriously faulty concepts, wrong materials, and a jaw-dropping lack of safety. I hope those guys still had all their fingers, toes and eyes in the right places, after they finished. (But I do know that their hearing did not ended up without damage: of that there is no doubt...) OK, so the REAL way that studio walls are normally sealed, is with acoustic caulk: Run one bead along the middle of sole plate, another two beads about an inch (2.5cm) to each side of that, then screw it in place. Then add another bead under the edge of each layer of drywall, as you take out the shim. That gives you five independent seals, so if any one of those is flawed at some point, then you still have four left.

In the video above he mounts the track to timber, i wonder if the same can be done to on concrete? Hope so!

No, it can't. Not to timber, and not to concrete or anything else. That video is just plain wrong, if you want isolation. Each room is a separate, independent, self-supporting structure! It does NOT attach to anything else at all: not to the existing ceiling, or the existing walls, or to other rooms: it stands all by itself, and there are NO mechanical connections between the framing for each room and anything else. Not even a single screw. As soon as you have even one tiny mechanical path between the inner-leaf of a room and anything else, you destroy your isolation. This is easy to understand: get an old-fashioned tuning fork, tap it so it rings, then hold it up in the air, far away from you. Can you hear it? Very vaguely, at best. Now put the base end down on your desk: can you hear it now? :) You just created a mechanical connection, or "flanking path" between a vibrating object and a resonant surface. The exact same thing happens when you have one room inner-leaf connected in any way with some other construction. There can be ZERO mechanical paths between the inner leaf of a room, and something else. The ONLY exception is the floor, but since that is a hugely massive, well damped concrete slab, that doesn't matter: it won't flank until way beyond the flanking limit of your walls,doors, windows, HVAC and electrical systems.

being complete noobs with Sketchup its a bit rough around the edges

Fora first attempt, it's pretty darn good! My first attempt with SketchUp looked like something the dog dragged in from the street....

even though we are four floors up

:shock: Ooops! I was assuming you were building on the ground floor. Didn't realize you were up high. So your concrete slab floor is NOT damped, and there may be structural issues with what you are proposing to do. Your first order of business should be to hire a structural engineer to examine the building and tell you how much extra live load you can put on that floor, and where you can put it. If you don't know that, then you cannot proceed. You are proposing to add thousands of pounds of load to that floor, and you cannot do that without first getting a qualified expert to confirm that you can do so safely. So before you do anything else, get the structural engineer to give you a written, signed report about that. Get him to take a very close look at that major crack in the chimney: there's a reason why that cracked, and hopefully it is not related to the building structure...

some tests will be needed first.

Right. Set up a full-range system in that room, play typical bass-heavy commercial rock music at about 115 dB in the room (wear hearing protection, of course), then measure that on a proper sound level meter (not an iPhone app!!!!), with "C" weighting and "slow" response for the real readings, and also "A" weighting for the legal readings. Measure at several locations in other parts of the building (other rooms on the same floor, next floor up, next floor down, lobby, stairwells, etc.) as well as outside the building in the street on all sides around, and perhaps even inside neighboring buildings, if you can get permission to do that. That will give you a good idea of how much isolation you have at present. Then turn off the music, go back to each of those points and measure the ambient level: that tells you how much isolation you will need in order for your noise to not disturb others. Finally, measure the ambient level inside the room, to get an idea of what the NR rating is right now, so you can figure what you need to do to get that down to your target NR rating inside the finished studio.

until the landlord puts in the new pvc windows

Once again, that's a bad idea! If he's going to do that on his dime, tell him that you way prefer to just have the existing windows replaced with single fixed panes of 12mm laminated glass (6+6). What else is he going to demo for you? What will come out, and what will stay in?

so we have our space and would love to start the build asap,

That's understandable, but that would be a big mistake: Designing a studio takes a lot of very careful planning, of multiple aspects: isolation, structures, geometry, electrical systems, ventilation systems, acoustic treatment, permits, codes, inspections, etc. realistically, you are many, many weeks away from that. A wise studio designer I know has a motto: "Studio construction is 90% design, 10% actual building". I think he's an optimist, too... :) - Stuart -

Well Soundman, i was wondering when you would come along and ruin the day! :) Thanks for the informative reply, it opened our eyes a a lot!

Your very first photo shows a view out the window, and clearly visible is another building just a few meters away: Are you sure the people who live/work in that building don't consider themselves to be your "neighbours" and wont be "annoyed" by the noise you make?

The building you can see through the window is not a residential building and is further away than it looks in the photo, (approx 100 metres away) we have been assured that the music wont be a problem to the surrounding neighbours as the landlord told us that there is another drummer on one of the floors below us and he has never had any complaints. We are now wondering if he is going to be a problem! :oops:

but you aren't showing that in your SketchUp model! You show only walls between rooms, but not the walls around the edges of the space, that should be there to complete each of your rooms. 2-leaf isolation refers to the entire room, not just some of the walls. It has to be a complete shell, which is why it is often referred to as "room-in-a-room" construction: picture that you are building a complete, separate structure for each of the new rooms, inside the existing room. each new room consists of the four walls (or maybe more than four walls, if you have an unusual shape) AND the ceiling. You aren't showing the new ceilings, either.

Your right this was a big mistake :oops: But on second thought we wouldn't mind spill from drum room to live room as this is more of a personal space than a commercial one and we would like to have the option of 2 rooms with different acoustics that dont have to be completely isolated but worry about spill from waiting area and outside noise, we haven't took any ambient dB measurements yet. The control room would be a true 'room within a room' but we were worried that it might not be enough to isolate us from the drum room enough. As for the ceilings, we know what we have in mind but just dont know how do them properly in sketchup..... still learning. We have a pretty high ceiling to work with and we want to use it to our advantage using angled ceilings but more research needs to be done.

Not sure what you mean by "plinth", but take a look at Glenn's design for a drum riser, and do something like that. Very effective, low cost, looks good. You can do the same for amps.

We will be sure to try and stick to the proper terminology :wink: Is this Glenn's 'drum riser' couldn't find the thread. . Cheers for the heads up.

Bad idea to use ordinary double glazing! That is not meant for isolating studios, and will not isolate low frequency sounds. Double glazing is meant for isolating typical city and residential sounds, which are mostly in the mid and high frequency range, and they are pretty good at that, but they do not isolate low frequencies, such as drums, bass guitars, the low end of the keyboard, electric guitars, etc. Instead of buying typical double glazing units, what you need to do is to replace the existing windows with one thick pane of laminated glass, then install another similar pieces of glass in the inner-leaf, in front of each of those. And of course, none of those windows can be operable: they all have to be fixed and sealed.

Thanks, we will pass this on to the landlord.

Curtains do not provide isolation, and are only useful for treatment of high frequencies, not mids or lows, so that wouldn't work. Slot resonators require sealed cavities to work: If the cavity is not sealed, then all you have is wood slats, not resonators. And the entire inner-leaf itself must be sealed air-tight too, which isn't possible with a curtain or a slot resonator that opens.

Ok thats a shame we really liked that idea :horse:

It would like nice.... but it can't be done if you need isolation. Or rather, it can only be done if you also build the inner leaf using brick, or make it all glass. Probably not really options!

It would look nice, but how would it sound if we just isolated the control room, would there be any point in having the extra drum room walls and doors if the spill would be that terrible that they might as well be in the same room?

A mini-split system will do HALF of the job: It takes care of the air-conditioning part (cooling/dehumidifying), but it does not take care of the other half: ventilation. You still need ducts, fans and silencers to bring in fresh air and exhaust the stale air.

:cry: more £££££££

The best way to find out if your budget is realistic, is to call up a couple of local building contractors and ask about their flat rate per square meter for converting an unfinished basement or garage into a home theater or "granny flat". Add about 20% to that rate, and you are in the ballpark. You have about 720 square feet and 10k to do it: that makes for about 14 pounds per square foot: I fear that is very much on the low side. I have no idea what building costs are like in Belfast, but I would suspect that the going rate is much higher than that. Of course, if you do all the work yourself (or most of it) that can reduce the costs substantially, and if you look around carefully for sales on building materials, overstocks, second hand materials (from demolition sites), and such like, you can reduce your costs even further. Another option might be to just build the control room now, then build the other rooms later as more funds become available. However, on the down side, you are also building very complex shaped rooms, which will greatly increase labor costs and material costs too, as well as slowing down the construction. If you stick to just plain rectangular shaped rooms, and plan carefully (so that walls are always multiples of 1.2m long, and exactly 2.4m high, for example, thus matching standard drywall, stud, and plywood sizes) then you can reduce costs, minimize material wastage, and move much faster.

We have have family and friends who are skilled tradesmen helping us and we will be doing most work ourselves and as soon as we have an accurate design we should get an accurate price for materials using your tip. Cheers.

Why? If you are building separate frames for each leaf, then you do not also need to decouple the drywall (plasterboard) from the farming. Once it is decoupled, then trying to decouple again only wastes time and money, but does not accomplish anything extra acoustically.

Ok cheers m8. Taking advice from wrong sources again!! :cen:

sorry, but I had to laugh! Those guys are doing so many things wrong that it is beyond funny: sad, actually. They are "floating" their floor on 2x2 joists ( ) on rubber pucks, they have not sealed their masonry, there are several penetrations visible in the outer leaf, they carefully put MLV ( ! ) (not rubber...) "isolation" under the sole plate with gaps in it, then screw right through it, then they directly couple their inner-leaf wall studs to the outer-leaf ceiling joists! And when you see one guy cutting metal with an angle grinder, with no gloves, bare legs, no eye protection, no ear protection, and not even clamping the workpieces, while the other guy is wearing sneakers, no hard hat, and standing on the top rung of a ladder that is too short, then you really have to wonder about sanity, in addition to acoustic design skills! I'd say that's a really good example of how NOT to build a studio! Or "How to build a studio if you want to wast a lot of money and time and get a lousy result". Sorry, but that's just not the way it is done. Bad design, seriously faulty concepts, wrong materials, and a jaw-dropping lack of safety. I hope those guys still had all their fingers, toes and eyes in the right places, after they finished. (But I do know that their hearing did not ended up without damage: of that there is no doubt...)

Haha ok, no more dodgy youtube videos, i promise.

OK, so the REAL way that studio walls are normally sealed, is with acoustic caulk: Run one bead along the middle of sole plate, another two beads about an inch (2.5cm) to each side of that, then screw it in place. Then add another bead under the edge of each layer of drywall, as you take out the shim. That gives you five independent seals, so if any one of those is flawed at some point, then you still have four left.

Good man, clear as mud :)

So your concrete slab floor is NOT damped, and there may be structural issues with what you are proposing to do. Your first order of business should be to hire a structural engineer to examine the building and tell you how much extra live load you can put on that floor, and where you can put it. If you don't know that, then you cannot proceed. You are proposing to add thousands of pounds of load to that floor, and you cannot do that without first getting a qualified expert to confirm that you can do so safely. So before you do anything else, get the structural engineer to give you a written, signed report about that. Get him to take a very close look at that major crack in the chimney: there's a reason why that cracked, and hopefully it is not related to the building structure...

We will make sure someone qualified has a look, its slightly worrying now you mention it.

Right. Set up a full-range system in that room, play typical bass-heavy commercial rock music at about 115 dB in the room (wear hearing protection, of course), then measure that on a proper sound level meter (not an iPhone app!!!!), with "C" weighting and "slow" response for the real readings, and also "A" weighting for the legal readings. Measure at several locations in other parts of the building (other rooms on the same floor, next floor up, next floor down, lobby, stairwells, etc.) as well as outside the building in the street on all sides around, and perhaps even inside neighboring buildings, if you can get permission to do that. That will give you a good idea of how much isolation you have at present. Then turn off the music, go back to each of those points and measure the ambient level: that tells you how much isolation you will need in order for your noise to not disturb others. Finally, measure the ambient level inside the room, to get an idea of what the NR rating is right now, so you can figure what you need to do to get that down to your target NR rating inside the finished studio.

After we make sure the structure is sound, we will get right on this. Thanks for the walkthrough man :thu:

That's understandable, but that would be a big mistake: Designing a studio takes a lot of very careful planning, of multiple aspects: isolation, structures, geometry, electrical systems, ventilation systems, acoustic treatment, permits, codes, inspections, etc. realistically, you are many, many weeks away from that. A wise studio designer I know has a motto: "Studio construction is 90% design, 10% actual building". I think he's an optimist, too...

Ano m8, we understand that more time is definitely needed and would like to thank you for your views on everything so far, think i need to lie down after this :D Breathe...

Well Soundman, i was wondering when you would come along and ruin the day!

:lol: :yahoo: Yup, that does seem to be what I do best! :)

We are now wondering if he is going to be a problem!

Good point: Maybe you can found out when he will be playing there next, then go listen/measure how bad it is in your room while he is playing?

The control room would be a true 'room within a room' but we were worried that it might not be enough to isolate us from the drum room enough.

Take a piece of paper and draw a simple circle to represent your entire space as, then draw a square inside that to represent your control room. Now try to draw another shape, any shape you want, but one that is not closed (one of the sides is open), to represent your drum booth that is not a true "room in a room", such that there will always be two lines between anything inside that shape, and anything inside the control room. Not just one line, not three lines, and not "no lines at all". I think you'll find that it is an impossible task. Unless the drum booth is also built as a true 'room within a room'. The only way to get that good isolation that you want for your control room is to make sure that there are exactly two leaves between all of your control room and all of your drum booth. So you are very correct to be worried about not having enough isolation from your drum booth, if you don't build it as a room-in-a-room.

Is this Glenn's 'drum riser'

Right! That's it!

It would look nice, but how would it sound if we just isolated the control room, would there be any point in having the extra drum room walls and doors if the spill would be that terrible that they might as well be in the same room?

:) See above....

more £££££££

Unfortunately, that generally is the way it goes with studio building. But there is a much better way to get the real answer about how much it will cost. You start by carefully pricing materials and labor, then adding it all up to get a number that logically sounds like it will be enough. Then you multiply that by any random number between 2 and 10. Then you divide the result by a very small fraction. Then you add yesterday's date. Then finally you add another zero on the end. That will be a very accurate estimate of how much it will REALLY cost!!! :)

Ok cheers m8. Taking advice from wrong sources again!!

:) This is actually a common misunderstanding, and the guys that sell resilient channel and resilient clips don't see to be too worried about trying to fix that.... Their products are good, and they do work, but only when used for the purpose for which they were designed. If you have a stud wall with drywall on both sides, and you want to increase the isolation a lot without spending too much or losing much space, then RC or clips + hat channel is a great way to do that. Take the drywall off one side, but the clips-and-channel or RC in place, then put the drywall back again. Both systems decouple the drywall from the studs, so that vibration cannot be transmitted through the studs to the drywall on the other side. That's the goal: the path has been broken, so vibration can't get through. But if you need even more isolation than that, then you have to create a bigger air gap, and the easiest way to do that is to by putting up a second stud frame, an inch or two away from the original one, and put the drywall on that. But in this case, the simple fact of have a separate stud frame also means that the path is broken! There is no mechanical connection between the two stud frames, so they are already decoupling the drywall. Thus, no additional decoupling is needed. The "broken path" has already been attained. If you are sitting on the bottom of a swimming pool, then you are already fully wet, and taking a hosepipe down with you is not going to make you any wetter! If your walls are decoupled, then they are decoupled. Doing it again is like taking that hosepipe down with you: pointless! :)

thank you for your views on everything so far, think i need to lie down after this :D Breathe...

Yeah, sometimes I do sort of come on a bit too strong, no sugar coating, just calling it like I see it! Sorry if that gets a bit heavy! But it's probably better to get hit with a shocker that grabs your attention now, rather than me just glossing over the important stuff, and then you find out the hard way, several thousand dollars down the road.... Having said all of the above, I think you actually have a rather nice space there, and it can turn out pretty darn good, if you do it right. :) - Stuart -