I'm back seeking design ideas for basement studio #2

You are missing something rather important in your model, Andy: Your soffits! Most of those problematic rays will be hitting your soffit baffle, not the walls, and the baffle is angled at 60°

That's a fair point you make :oops: So much for that being a timesaver! :) Ok, so I will go look at them again with the baffles. I thought that the baffles were angled at 30 degrees though? Or are you saying 30 degrees for each baffles which gives a total of 60 between the two them?

Also, to avoid losing so much room volume, angle less of the front wall

That thought had crossed my mind earlier today, although I was considering starting the splay steep, say 18 degrees and then making it less steep, say 9 degrees. I much prefer your plan though! I'm still wondering about a couple of these questions though - even after I add the baffles back in and adjust where the splay starts - I'm still interested to know whether I should compensate for increased splay by increasing the room width in an attempt to keep the room volume the same? That was what I had done previously. I also wondered if I should be concerned about the external window on the back wall to the left? Since you likely can't access my skp file still, let me add a jpeg below: Many thanks again Stuart. You are a wonderful teacher - I am learning so much at the moment and am very grateful indeed. Allen - I just looked again at your thread and will be trying something just like this as Stuart suggests. My dimensions here are 17'5 x 12'6 x 7'6. Originally the room width was 12ft exactly which was based on Sepmeyer3 - 1:1.6:2.33, but after splaying the walls I increased the width of the room slightly to get the volume back up to that of the rectangular room volume. I hope that was the right thing to do! Keep up the great work and great to hear from you. Andy

Andy, my .02c...

Also, to avoid losing so much room volume, angle less of the front wall

I'm still wondering about a couple of these questions though - even after I add the baffles back in and adjust where the splay starts - I'm still interested to know whether I should compensate for increased splay by increasing the room width in an attempt to keep the room volume the same? That was what I had done previously.

In my non-expert opinion, room volume would be a secondary concern over room shape / ratio... i believe the room volume can be a good indicator of the total amount of room the sound has to begin to dissipate before being reflected... in rod's book, he gives some generalization about room volume, but it's kind of in the context (pulling from memory, the books at home)... that larger rooms are just easier to treat acoustically... but says something along the lines of a 'small room correctly treated can sound better than a large room (even in the golden ratio) not treated... ' i was also concerned about the ratio, and had read stuart mention in a post, that the ratio's suggested are good because they stay away from the bad ratios (like 1x1x1), so i think you have flexibility in your room.... I keep coming back to using a door in front setup, and removing the airlock... I know this gets close to a square ratio, but it would allow you to splay the entirety of both side walls, which sort of mitigates some of that... plus, you can keep the side walls in 1ft on each side, so you'd end up with a room of 8'x18'x16' but 16'splayed walls...that go from 16ft to 14ft?? this could help you with your current problem where your first reflection is close to your mix position... without doing a ray trace, i'd almost bet that if you pushed the walls out, you wouldn't worry about first reflections before 50degrees or more... I'm sure you've seen this room mode calchttp://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm, but if you use the "average" of the splayed wall, the room isn't terrible ;) 7'10"x18'x15' .... obviously some tweaking would be in order, but... just a thought...

I also wondered if I should be concerned about the external window on the back wall to the left? Since you likely can't access my skp file still, let me add a jpeg below:

as for the back windows, I wouldn't worry about them too much, for several reasons... it's a hard surface, similar to the other side of the rear wall, except glass, not drywall...your not likely to be able to completely remove it... you'll most likely be treating the entirety of the rear wall in some absorbtive setup, so at that point, you can address it like you will on the other half of the wall... if you are worried about keeping it accessible, again, a removable panel of sorts for the times you are not mixing may do the trick... if your worried about isolation, then creating a 'plug' of sorts may work... black painted drywall up against the glass might help.... trying to remember the studio on the forum i just saw do that... i'll have to post the link after i find it... kevin

I thought that the baffles were angled at 30 degrees though?

Right! It sure is 30° measured from the FRONT wall, . . . which is 60° when measured from the SIDE walls... :) :cop: Like this: It's as though you took your side wall and turned it 60°, so the bounce angle is huge for your ray-tracing.

I was considering starting the splay steep, say 18 degrees and then making it less steep, say 9 degrees.

You could do it that way too. There's even a slight advantage to that, acoustically, but it does complicate construction quite a bit more. Probably better to just keep one angle.

I'm still interested to know whether I should compensate for increased splay by increasing the room width in an attempt to keep the room volume the same?

If you can increase the width a bit, that would be good, but I have a feeling you don't have enough space to do that: that passage outside the room would become too narrow to be comfortable/useful.

I also wondered if I should be concerned about the external window on the back wall to the left?

It's fine: no big deal. It's not a big window, it is high up, and is not going to be reflecting much back at you. You could probably even fit a small horizontal superchunk across the top of that wall: Set it in the middle and make is roughly symmetrical, stopping at an imaginary window in the same place on the other side. - Stuart -

I keep coming back to using a door in front setup, and removing the airlock...

Good idea! I hadn't thought of that, but it makes a lot of sense. I'm also with you 100% on the room volume and room ratio comments. - Stuart -

ok, so this is rough... i'm finding the limits of my home designer software... and drawing angles is apparently one of them... so i can't measure angles... but this is close and should give you an idea of what i'm talking about... this is a blatant copy of John's SAE "Control Room" sample plan under the is forum... now, the dimensions for your room are a bit smaller, so this might not work exactly, but I think its close enough to make it work... my sketch is kinda rough, but you get the idea... again... i know that walkign around the desk wouldn't thrill me, but, its a workable plan within the limitations you have... and if your soffit mounting the monitors... there shouldn't be a problem with cables and cords and such... so you should be able to have a 3ft or so walkspace between your desk and the doorway... what do you think? kevin

Hey Guys, I'm back to the drawing board and trying to find an RFZ design that will work. Thanks so much Kevin for taking the time to draw out that idea. I'm really hoping not to do the SG door unless it's absolutely necessary. The main factors being a) I don't like people walk around behind the desk (risk of damaging equipment, and it's quite annoying when you're working and people are coming and going), and b) I don't think the isolation to the drum room would be as good. So I've been playing with various factors, moving the splay start a few feet further back as Stuart suggested, adjusting the splay angle, and I'm finding that in order to get a true RFZ I will likely need to increase the width of the room and say to hell with Sepmeyer 3. This is to ensure I have enough space between the speakers for my 4ft wide window. I have been using Bob Golds calculator right from the get go on these design attempts to get a feel for how the room might behave (if it were rectangular) and have found that adjust the width (within a certain extent) actually does not appear to have a substantially negative effect. The other design consideration that's been bouncing around my noggin is whether to forgo the window in favor of my large LCD TV. Since a large part of what I do is video-streamed live - it might make sense to have the monitor placed here for me (and other sitting on the coach at the room rear) to see. Keep in mind that each room will have a number of camera's so having a window isn't actually a necessity for me since I can call up any camera, and pan, tilt, or zoom it. I asked a couple of clients if they would prefer privacy, or the ability to see the producer and their response was they like being able to see the producer when needed (I typically set them up so they don't look at me and need to turn around if they want to see me). So not really much development - just ongoing questions and design attempts. I would be interested to hear anyone's thoughts on these factors - especially opinions around having the window vs. monitor. Many thanks and more sketches to come soon. Andy

I have been using Bob Golds calculator right from the get go on these design attempts to get a feel for how the room might behave (if it were rectangular) and have found that adjust the width (within a certain extent) actually does not appear to have a substantially negative effect.

:thu: Right! That's one of the reasons why it isn't necessary to chase perfection in room ratios. My normal recommendation is just "stay away form the bad ones, get close to a good one, and that's it!". Here's another curve ball to add to your mix of tools for designing your room: Download the very latest version of REW. There is a "room simulator" option in there now, that actually predicts the frequency response graph for your room, based on the dimensions, the treatment on each wall, and the position of your head and your speakers within the room. Initially it is set up for only one sub, but you can add more speakers and adjust their position and frequency cut-off, to simulate your setup better. It only predicts up to 200 Hz right now, but that's all you need for most rooms. It's pretty darn amazing! :) - Stuart -

Thanks for sharing that Stuart- that sounds like a very useful update that they've made - I will definitely be downloading and checking that out. So do you fancy sharing your thoughts on the Window vs. LCD TV Debate I'm having? :)

The other design consideration that's been bouncing around my noggin is whether to forgo the window in favor of my large LCD TV

my thought is... let me know how that turns out, cause i'm thinking the same thing! But, I was thinking that it may be a cheaper option, than putting in an actual window... and depending on my final layout, I may not have visual sight lines to all booths anyways... you may have a similar circumstance, where you are looking through a room to see the first room... a video monitor may help solve some of those sighting issues, and may be a cheaper option... depending on the tv,camera etc...of course. A wood-framed drywall is going to be cheaper than the plate glass window, especially at the thickness and size we use in the studio world... thats my .02c on the lcd vs window... as for the layout, i'm also playing with a very similar sized control room, so i'm curious to see what you end up with... kevin

Hey Kevin! In my case I already have the window (salvaged from my last build) and already have the PTZ camera's etc since I do a lot of live streaming - so the cost of either is not a factor. As for sight lines, well if I'm able to go with the CR window facing into the booth and a large patio door / wall as per my recent Sketchup plans I think I could get pretty good sight lines. Of course if I end up adding the vocal booth to the right of the CR I could always use the window there instead. Decisions decisions... and a welcome distraction from many days of reading Newell, various build threads, and trying yet more designs in Sketchup :horse: At some point I have to say f :cen: it - let's build - as I have a couple of clients (one quite well known) waiting for it's completion. That and the fact that my poor wife will only tolerate my studio gear filling up the dining room for so long! :lol: Cheers for now, Andy

my poor wife will only tolerate my studio gear filling up the dining room for so long!

:shock: :!: Ooohhhh you have an AMAZING wife! I'd be dead long ago, if our dining room had my gear staked in it like that.... 8) :!: I could sneak that one by for maybe ten minutes or so, .... then WWIII would start :) (Naah, just kidding: My wife is not really that bad, but still, she would not be too happy at all with that!) - Stuart -

My wife truly is amazing. She puts up with all of my artistic idiosyncrasies. Luckily (miraculously) for me she married me knowing what she was getting in to. I had already built studio #1 by the time we met, and so when our family started expanding and we needed more space she was really supportive knowing how tough it was for me to leave the old studio behind and go through the designing / building process all over again. With that said, she really isn't happy about it (neither am I quite honestly) and if the dining room isn't back to being a dining room soon... :cop: :evil: :cop: :evil: :cop: Btw - this pic is just studio gear. The salvaged doors and other building supplies are in the garage and storage room :o

Ok Stuart. Hoping you can help me here. So I finally got an RFZ design to work with the wall splay starting a bit further in as you suggested, and with an angle of 22.5 degrees. There are no reflections going through my 1ft circle, and only a few, further off-axis (50 - 54 degree) reflections making it into the 2ft radius circle. Here's the thing though - I had created my two circles' origin, as well as the third point of my speaker triangle at the 38% point in the room, however I recall reading in Newell's Recording Studio Design book that it is standard practice to positions speakers such that the focus should be 60 to 80cm behind the principal listening position. I don't see how I am able to do that given the limited width of the room. I can't bring the speakers any further forward to gain some width since then the soffits would be right on top of my desk. What do you think? Many thanks, Andy

I recall reading in Newell's Recording Studio Design book that it is standard practice to positions speakers such that the focus should be 60 to 80cm behind the principal listening position.

In an ideal, perfect world, yes. But most home studios don't fit that! :) I'm more inclined to go for about 30 - 40 cm, realistically.

I don't see how I am able to do that given the limited width of the room. I can't bring the speakers any further forward to gain some width since then the soffits would be right on top of my desk.

There are two other options open to you: 1) Angle the speakers (and soffit) slightly less: Instead of 30°, try 28° for example. 2) Slide the speakers outwards along the soffit panels, so they are not centered on the panel.... closer to the outside edge than the inside edge. They should not be centered anyway... Where are your axes meeting right now? In the middle of your head? That would be fine, if your ears are located in front of your eyeballs.... :) But if your ears are located on the side of your head, then that's where the axis should be pointing... Actually, it should be a bit further out that that: The idea is that the axes should graze past your ears, an inch or two away, and therefore meet at that point behind your ears. There's another option too: Don't be so dead-set on the 38% thing! Slide your chair forwards a couple of inches. In the real world, it turns out that most engineers prefer a position like that, just a bit in front of the "perfect" location. Or maybe a combination of the two... slight angle change + slight "soffit slide" + slight chair move... :) - Stuart -

Thanks Stuart I will go through these and find a way to make this work. I also noticed last night while playing with Bob Golds calculator that I can increase the room width and length a small fraction without adversely affecting the room behavior. Adding this with your suggestions and I think I should be able to do this :yahoo: The only significant change I notice is an increase of 17 sabins to achieve RT60. It looks like I actually benefit from losing one of the Tangetials. Critical distance shifts back about 10 inches. I did just want to sanity check with you though that this looks acceptable - make sure I'm not missing something:

Room Dimensions: Length=17.07 ft, Width=12.75 ft, Height=7.5 ft Room Ratio: 1 : 1.7 : 2.27 R. Walker BBC 1996: - 1.1w / h < l / h < ((4.5w / h) - 4): Pass - l < 3h & w < 3h: Pass - no integer multiple within 5%: Pass Nearest Known Ratio: - "4) L. W. Sepmeyer: 1965" 1 : 1.6 : 2.33 RT60 (IEC/AEC N 12-A standard): 243 ms - ±50ms from 200Hz to 3.5kHz = 193 to 293ms - ±100ms above 3.5kHz = 143 to 343ms - <+300ms at 63hz = 543ms - 300<RT60<600ms RT60 (ITU/EBU Control Room Recommended): 193 ms - ±50ms from 200Hz to 4kHz = 143 to 243ms - <+300ms at 63hz = 493ms - 200<RT60<400ms Absorbtion to achieve ITU RT60: 413 sabins Volume: 1633 ft^3 Surface Area Total: 880 ft^2 Surface Area Floor: 217 ft^2 Surface Area Ceiling+Floor: 434 ft^2 Surface Area Front Wall: 95 ft^2 Surface Area Front and Rear Wall: 190 ft^2 Surface Area Left Wall: 128 ft^2 Surface Area Left and Right Wall: 256 ft^2 Surface Area 4 Walls: 446 ft^2 Surface Area 4 Walls + floor: 663 ft^2 (sabins - front wall - carpet) / Left+Right+Rear wall: 28 % (sabins - front wall) / Left+Right+Rear wall: 90 % Schroeder Fc: 122hz Frequency Regions: - No modal boost: 1hz to 33hz - Room Modes dominate: 33hz to 122hz - Diffraction and Diffusion dominate: 122hz to 488hz - Specular reflections and ray accoustics prevail: 488hz to 20000hz Count (33-217hz) : Axials=12, Tangentials=44, Obliques=48 Count (33-100hz) : Axials=6, Tangentials=5, Obliques=1 Critical Distance (direct = reverberant field): 12.90ft

And here is a pic of the Bonello 1/3 octave: Many thanks as always and wishing you a fab Friday! Andy

It's all looking pretty good to me, Andy! It seems you have been tweaking very nicely.

I also noticed last night while playing with Bob Golds calculator that I can increase the room width and length a small fraction without adversely affecting the room behavior

Are you also using the "room simulator" mode of REW, to take a look at the predicted low-frequency behavior? Sometimes it can reveal things in more detail ... - Stuart -

Are you also using the "room simulator" mode of REW, to take a look at the predicted low-frequency behavior? Sometimes it can reveal things in more detail ...

Yeah I did download it this morning and plugged in my proposed dimensions. Very cool new feature that they added although I wonder how much it translates to non-rectangular rooms. I'm not exactly sure how to interpret the results yet, and the REW help functionality does not appear to yet include the Room Mode Simulator. I'm going to have a poke around in the HTS Forum and see what I can learn. Of course any nuggets of wisdom are always appreciated :D

If you slide the entrance door a bit further back, and put in a window to that "hallway", it would make a great emergency vocal booth... However, you do still need inner-leaf walls for that hallway/booth: right now, it is in the air cavity of your MSM system. That will make it narrower, of course, and will create an issue with the door to the drum booth, but if you splay your CR walls a bit more (aiming for a true RFZ design... :) ), then the door should still fit in just fine.

So the door fits just fine now, the widening of the room helped me get RFZ without deviating from a 30 degree speaker angle :yahoo: but my question de jour is - how does one finish the inner leaf walls for the hallway / booth with just the one door without mechanically coupling to the drum booth? I would have separately framed walls for the CR, Drum booth, and Hallway / emergency booth. The door out of the CR goes into the Hallway / emergency booth (kinda like a very large sound lock) and then there's a door from there into the drum booth. How do I put a single door in a double wall frame assembly without mechanically coupling the two room's together? Many thanks and wishing you a great weekend! Andy

How do I put a single door in a double wall frame assembly without mechanically coupling the two room's together?

Ummm... you don't! You put doors in, back-to-back, one in each leaf. That goes for all doors. If hinged doors won't work like that, then do glass sliders... - Stuart -

Sorry Stuart, I should have been more specific. What I had in mind for this hallway / booth / soundlock area was to use Rod's SuperDoor approach. I'm just concerned as to whether the mechanical coupling of the Drum Room to the Control Room by way of the door frame is going to cause issues. I re-read the section on doors in his book twice today and while he stresses that it's not a big deal I can't help but have some lingering concern. Here is what he says in the book on page 93:

"tests have proven that a through jamb does not effectively lessen the total isolation value of a wall assembly to any great degree. So don't worry about any miniscule amount of isolation you may lose. Just build the frame straight through the cavity"

:?

andy, i'm not seeing where your door to the drum room is connected to the control room? what am I missing... can you post your "final" plan and point it out? k

Hey Kevin, I'm still working on adding the final framing, electrical, and mechanical details and will post the .skp file then (unless it is not clear from the attached picture below and then I will upload it in it's current state). Hopefully this helps answer your question. As you can see the Hallway wall is connected to both the drum room and the Control Room by way of using a common door Jamb - using Rod's Superdoor approach. Thoughts? Andy

ok, to clarify yet further, the wall between the CR and hall is just a single stud wall, drywall both sides with a common top and bottom plate? and then this wall carriers over to and adjoins the drum room wall... but this is where I get lost... the hallway wall where it meets the drum wall should be adjacent to, but not touching the other wall, it should be 1/4" seem, filled with acoustical sealant... then that doorway is only in the single stud wall... correct? or otherwise you'll need a double wall where the door is, with two doors... or am i missing it?

Actually no not quite. All walls are double stud walls with a one inch gap between, with the exception of the wall at the top of the CR and bottom of the drum booth - the air gap is significantly larger here due to a) maintaining a favorable ratio / predicted CR behavior, and b) the location of the structural support pillar (in red). The two doors in the picture are then using Rod's superdoor design where there is one door with one common jamb straddling both stud walls. In Rod's book he also recommends using a common Jamb even with double door assemblies. This is not something I did in my last studio. To be honest I missed that detail in his book. Hope that clarifies, but do let me know if you have any other questions or would like me to post the .skp file. Many thanks, Andy

Hi Stuart, Kevin, and all, Well after quite an eventful year I am finally back and able to dedicate time to this project - my apologies for the radio silence. There has been some progress since I last posted and I will post some pictures of the demo'd space later. All of the sheetrock is removed, as is the electrical - the only thing that still needs to come out is the framing and insulation (which I hope to reuse for the new framing as much as possible.) As I'm putting thought into my final plans and construction details I wanted to ask you all a question, as I could not seem to find an existing answer here on the forum. It's with regards to the structural pole that I had mentioned that sits between the live room and control room. In the new floor plan it will be sitting in the MAM gap between the two walls. As far as I can tell this pole goes up through the floor and continues through a wall in between the Family Room and Kitchen. I suspect it is supporting the weight of the bump out on the back of the house detailed in the picture below: So my question is this. By placing it between the two rooms in the MAM cavity in my design - it should help minimize the noise transfer from the studio below, however I suspect there will still be significant resonance of the pole occurring - especially LF caused by Bass or Kick drums for example. What steps should I be taking to minimize this? The previous owner had framed around it and added drywall. What would be the best way to damp this? Remove the existing framing and add damping and then extra mass? I know from knocking on one of the other poles in the basement that is exposed - they have a pretty good ring to them, so I'm assuming they are hollow. Any guidance you can offer would be gratefully appreciated as always. Many thanks and hope you are all well, Andy