starting from scratch - any help greatly appreciated!!

Hi Everyone! I am John from Northern Ireland, I am a 40 year old musician/recording engineer. I work on Mac with Logic (Allen and Heath GS3 mixer,Motu 828MkII with a Behringer ultragain slave) I have a small studio here, i had a business partner for around 6 years but have recently bought him out and i am planning some changes to improve pretty much everything. My problem has been (on my own part) ignorance and a lack of funds but i can probably sink £2000 or slightly more into what i would like to do. So I have a live room and a control room in my home, the control room is about to be moved to combat the bleed coming from the live room - to be honest if there was a way of combatting the bleed i would love to pursue it!! Luckily,our neighbours are far enough away (and tolerant enough) to let us get on with our work as long as we are done by the legal time - lucky eh? I work with a lot of punk/metal bands so volume is generally high - bless 'em!) the set up of this part of the house looks like this (full studio plan) I'll just point out now that ALL our ceilings are 8ft high (live room plan) (Live room pic) The Live room has 2 corner windows and one side window, which we intend on covering up and sealing/boxing off,it also has a hearth/fireplace (at the moment it is boxed off) which will be removed entirely and bricked up. Originally we had frames put in which held acoustic foam in place which covered the walls all the way round,a wooden laminate floor and bare ceiling.I am aware how wrong this is...now. So like i say,we are planning to lose the windows,the fireplace and the foam and leave ourselves a blank canvas. So we intend on possibly mildly soundproofing the live room (more for my partner's benefit than anything else - she has enough to put up with!) and have found a few DIY plans,but i notice that here on the forum people favour MDF over plywood, is this due to density? If i may ask, does anyone haves any decent DIY plans they would recommend? I know every house/studio is different but since this is a home studio, anything that is a good starting point would be very much appreciated. We were also planning to treat the ceiling with squares of acoustic foam attached to the ceiling with velcro coins so we can alter the sound of the room a little of necessary.Will this work or would it be unnecessary hassle? Another question, concerning bass traps, is bigger better? We were considering covering the corners of the room where the windows were with fitted bass traps, overkill maybe...or would it mean only having to trap these 2 corners? Also,are bass traps better hung or fitted? I apologise for sounding so disorganized, i am kind of stumped and indeed bamboozled by the amount of variables and numbers. I'll leave it at that for now and thank you all for your time.

Hi John, and welcome to the madhouse! errr... I mean the forum! :)

My problem has been (on my own part) ignorance and a lack of funds but i can probably sink £2000 or slightly more into what i would like to do.

That will probably cover decent acoustic treatment for your room, but it won't also do isolation, a.k.a. "soundproofing. (We tend to use "isolation" around here, since it is more accurate, technically, and in reality it is impossible to to totally "soundproof" a room: any sufficiently loud sound will get past any conceivable barrier. Even the best studio in the world will not isolate the sound of stick of dynamite detonating...) Anyway, comments on your post:

the control room is about to be moved to combat the bleed coming from the live room -

It makes sense to have the CR and LR right next to each other, if possible, and in the majority of studios there's a window between the two, so the musicians and engineer can see other. Sight lines are important in studios. So if there is some place where your CR could go next to your LR, then that would be the best place to put it, even if you can't afford to put the window in now.

to be honest if there was a way of combatting the bleed i would love to pursue it!!

There are ways, yes. Isolation is possible. You could isolate either your LR, or your CR, or best of all, both of them. Also, it all depends on how much isolation you need: before doing anything else, you should identify that with a sound level meter. Based on your answer, you can take a look at construction methods and materials that will achieve that number and that fit your budget and skill set.

The Live room has 2 corner windows and one side window, which we intend on covering up and sealing/boxing off,

OK; but for what purpose? If you plan to isolate (="soundproof") your room, then sealing those windows correctly will be part of the plan, but the active word here is "part". Just doing that by itself will probably disappoint you, as it won't have a huge effect.... by itself. The basic concept of room isolation is "all or nothing". Isolation in any give room is only as good as the "weakest link", or the part that isolates least. In most rooms, that is the door, closely followed by the windows, ventilation system, electrical system, general air-tight sealing, the ceiling, the walls, and the floor (roughly in that order). In order to get good isolation, all of those "systems" need to be isolated to the same level. For example, if you spend lots of time and money isolating your windows, but your door was the weakest link, then you won't notice much difference until you also deal with the door. At that point, you'll notice the next-weakest link, and after you fix that, then next one. Etc. And only after you have completed isolating the last one, will you actually get the level you want. The normal method of isolating a room is to do them all at once, to the same level.

it also has a hearth/fireplace (at the moment it is boxed off) which will be removed entirely and bricked up.

That will certainly make a large difference. A fireplace (even boxed off) is basically just a huge hole in the roof for sound, so bricking that up will make a difference... just enough that you'll be able to hear what the next thing is that needs isolating... :)

So like i say,we are planning to lose the windows,the fireplace and the foam and leave ourselves a blank canvas.

Great, but that still leaves the doors, HVAC, electrical, ceiling and walls.

So we intend on possibly mildly soundproofing the live room

OK, but what do you mean by "mildly"? In terms of decibels? That's the key to getting this right. You can't plug in the word "mild" to the equations that define how well a wall isolates! But you sure can plug in "45 decibels".

and have found a few DIY plans,but i notice that here on the forum people favour MDF over plywood, is this due to density? If i may ask, does anyone haves any decent DIY plans they would recommend?

Here's the thing about DIY plans and studios: they don't play well together. Each studio is totally different from the next one, acoustically, and needs its own individual plan. Any plan you find on the internet for someone else's room will only work for YOUR room if yours is absolutely identical to theirs in every aspect, AND ALSO if you have the exact same goals as he did AND ALSO the exact same instruments, furniture, people, gear, speakers, surroundings, etc... The best idea is to look around the forum for rooms similar to yours, and see if the plans for those can be adapted to your room, your needs, your gear, your budget, etc. You can't just take an entire plan and stick it in your room, wholesale: at best you can borrow some parts from it directly, and modify a few others. Worst case, you can take the basic concept and re-do it completely for your place.

I know every house/studio is different

Yup! :)

but since this is a home studio, anything that is a good starting point would be very much appreciated.

You show only your LR in the photos, not your CR, so I assume that is the priority? That the CR can wait? Or do you need both at once? Without knowing what is wrong with your room right now, there's no real way that anyone can tell you how to fix it, so your first order of business should be to get that well identified, and set some goals. For example, if isolation is important (and it seems to be, from what you say!), then find out how loud you are, and how quiet you want to be, then we can help you design the method for accomplishing that. But if isolation means nothing to you and your goal is to get the room sounding fantastic, then the issue is treatment, so you need to run an acoustic analysis of the room (use "REW" for that), then post the data file here, so we can analyze it for you, and suggest the type of treatment you will need, and where to put it. If your goal is both isolation and treatment, then you'll have to do the isolation first, since it is impossible to do that once the treatment is in place. Isolation and treatment are two totally different and unrelated aspects of acoustics, and the often do get in the way of each other.

We were also planning to treat the ceiling with squares of acoustic foam attached to the ceiling with velcro coins so we can alter the sound of the room a little of necessary.Will this work or would it be unnecessary hassle?

Not worth the hassle: not effective enough, and the frequencies it affects would not be the ones you really need to play with, in order to make useful changes to the room. Yes you do need absorption on the ceiling, but probably not in that manner. Also, proper acoustic foam is expensive, and ordinary cheap foam is no use acoustically. On the other hand, ordinary cheap fiberglass insulation and mineral wool insulation is really useful, acoustically, and you can make large changes to your room acoustics like that, at a relatively low cost. So skip the idea of using foam (unless you have very deep pockets!).

Another question, concerning bass traps, is bigger better?

Yes! Absolutely and unequivocally.

We were considering covering the corners of the room where the windows were with fitted bass traps, overkill maybe...

Definitely not overkill! Not even close. It is a small room, and all small rooms need massive amounts of bass trapping. The smaller it is, the more it needs. Superchunk traps would do very well in those corners....

or would it mean only having to trap these 2 corners?

2 corners is a good start, but rather basic.... there are 12 corners in a rectangular room.... :)

Also,are bass traps better hung or fitted?

Acoustically, there's no real difference, but from ease of construction, and for safety, it is better to attach them firmly. They need to go floor to ceiling, and something that tall can easily topple over if not firmly anchored.

am kind of stumped and indeed bamboozled by the amount of variables and numbers.

That's OK! That's the way most people are when they arrive here. but take a look at some of the ways their threads progress, and the way their rooms end up, and you'll realize that there is hope! And it ain't all that hard as it seems to make a big difference. So start by trying to get your goals in order: what are you actually trying to achieve here? Define that, figure out your isolation requirements, and run REW on your room. That alone will get you well on the path you need to be taking! - Stuart -

Wow! thankyou so much for your patience and prompt response! I will review all that you have said and repost as soon as i have it in order. many thanks again,especially for not treating me like the clueless idiot that i almost certainly am!! John

many thanks again,especially for not treating me like the clueless idiot that i almost certainly am!!

That's what we're here for! :) And you certainly aren't any type of clueless idiot, that's for sure: After all, you are posting here, on the best darn acoustic forum on the face of the planet! :) 8) :shot: More seriously, when you first start getting into acoustics and studio design, it really is very confusing, as nothing seems intuitive. Most people find that a lot of what they thought they new about sound actually isn't correct, so you first have to "un-learn" that, then re-learn the way it really works. But it's not that hard: once you get your head around the basic concepts, it all starts making more sense. - Stuart -

OK so after having a good hard think about it I've decided that the Live room is where i need to start. Right now,the major problems with the room are fairly bad flutter echo from the center of the room to the corner windows and a general lack of bass traps (which i know i can build easily and will be doing so over the next few days) I've always noticed when the room is full of musicians and equipment,the flutter echo is gone and the room sounds much better! So to start, I intend to brick up the chimney, block off the windows and add a 2nd door (i should have mentioned that i have a heavy fire door on at the moment,with space to add another one if necessary) or possibly use a rubber seal on the one that is there. So as you have said, if i am going to isolate in any way, i should do it all to the same level...so i'm thinking I probably should just do right the way round the walls too, so room within a room seems the most sensible way? A question about the ceiling...this is quite an old house,built in the early 70s (kind of like myself :D ) and the ceiling is plasterboard that runs right through the house.would it be sensible to cut through the plasterboard (which i'm guessing is what carries the low end frequencies to the far end of the house) and then reseal it using some form of acoustic seal, therefore making a break in what is essentially a huge sounding board? or should i just tell the bass player that he isnt playing wembley arena and should just turn the amp down? As to the Db levels i'll test it over the next couple of days and get back to you about how much or little i need to isolate it. Thanks again for making me welcome. Nice to meet experts in their field who are not scared of sharing information. John.

Hi Folks! Just a little update. Materials should be arriving any day now,this weekend will see the removal of the box around the chimney,the removal of the hearth and the bricking up of the grate.Next up is the building and fixing in place of the basstraps.I have decided to go with the superchunk type and work from there. I will be testing the Db over today and tomorrow and as soon as the bass traps are in i have a friend who is an acoustics student who is going test the room and advise me on where to go from there,but we want to have the ceiling treated at least basically before he does so. I have a small question regarding this,since i have a wooden laminate floor and a large mat for the drumkit should i be thinking about a lot of ceiling treatment? Or maybe blanket coverage above the kit? Anyway,thanks for all your advice so far,I'll keep you posted! John.

Right now,the major problems with the room are fairly bad flutter echo from the center of the room to the corner windows and a general lack of bass traps (which i know i can build easily and will be doing so over the next few days) I've always noticed when the room is full of musicians and equipment,the flutter echo is gone and the room sounds much better!

Right! People actually make pretty good acoustic treatment! But you can't hang 'em on the wall... :) Fortunately, flutter echo is fairly easy to deal with, using panels of absorption on the walls. Put them in a "checkerboard" pattern for best effect.

So to start, I intend to brick up the chimney, block off the windows and add a 2nd door (i should have mentioned that i have a heavy fire door on at the moment,with space to add another one if necessary) or possibly use a rubber seal on the one that is there.

You need both the door AND the seal, actually. The single biggest thing you can do to improve the isolation in typical rooms at home, is to just seal it properly. Even a tiny little air gap someplace is enough to greatly harm the isolation. So even the best door in the world wont do much to isolate your room unless the gaps around the edges are very well sealed, with at least two rubber seals, all the way around (top, sides AND bottom). You can buy those seals ready-made, or do it yourself.

so room within a room seems the most sensible way?

Absolutely!

and the ceiling is plasterboard that runs right through the house.would it be sensible to cut through the plasterboard (which i'm guessing is what carries the low end frequencies to the far end of the house) and then reseal it using some form of acoustic seal, therefore making a break in what is essentially a huge sounding board?

The easiest way is to take of that drywall (plasterboard) completely, then put somthing called Resilient Channel across the exposed joists, and hang new drywall from that. Resilient channel is a "springy bent metal strip with holes and slots in it", that you nail to the joists on one side, and the drywall attaches to the other side. It isolates the drywall from the joists, acoustically. It looks a bit like hat channel but is NOT the same. You can also use hat channel, but ONLY if you hang it from RSIC clips, that do the same thing: they decouple the channel from the joists. You can actually do the same for the walls: drywall off RC on, new drywall on. It isn't quite as good as a full "room-in-a-room" build, but it still gives you pretty darn good improvement in isolation, and it's a bit cheaper.

this weekend will see the removal of the box around the chimney,the removal of the hearth and the bricking up of the grate.Next up is the building and fixing in place of the basstraps.I have decided to go with the superchunk type and work from there.

sounds like a good plan! As you work, make very sure to seal EVERYTHING in sight. Any tiny little nook and cranny is your enemy. Every crack and gap. Even if it looks innocuous, and you think it could not possibly leak, seal it anyway, just in case... :)

I have a small question regarding this,since i have a wooden laminate floor and a large mat for the drumkit should i be thinking about a lot of ceiling treatment? Or maybe blanket coverage above the kit?

The general rule is "hard floor, soft ceiling", for many reasons, both acoustic and psycho-acoustic. So put plenty of absorption on the ceiling and leave the floor hard and reflective.

Anyway,thanks for all your advice so far,I'll keep you posted!

Pictures!!!!! As the saying goes around here: "No pics means it didn't happen"... .) - Stuart -

OK folks,been a while since i posted...but here is where we are at now. In the live room (1 2 and 3),we bricked up the chimney and plastered over it,built superchunk basstraps in the 4 corners (in the process covering the corner windows). As the floor is a laminate wood,we used auralex foam for the ceiling and covered it in its entirety. there are strips of foam on all the walls (not opposite each other obviously) Have to say even at this point the room sounds waaaay better...the drums sound immense! we still have 1 window to cover,the problem is,we have to leave part of it accessible as a fire escape/ventilation (air conditioning/extractor fans are way out of our price range right now) so we are looking for a way to do this,probably something with a hinge or handles so it can be lifted out or opened easily. I intend to run REW as soon as we have the window sorted out,i will post results here. The new control room (4)has now a laminate floor in it and superchunk bass traps built in 2 corners so far (which will have my monitors in front of them) we could build another superchunk,but not a fourth as the the door leaves it impossible,would a top corner trap suffice?.We are building hanging traps/broadband absorbers at the moment,they should be ready by tomorrow or the next day,ready for placing.My questions here are,1.since they are quite heavy,what is the best way to hang them? 2.again with the laminate floor,should i be treating the entire ceiling,or is that overkill in a control room? 3. should the wall behind me be completely deadened or would a broadband absorber suffice? and 4. I would like to keep the window in the room,again for ventilation,i had intended to put a blind up and heavy curtains,does that sound reasonable or wrong? Finally,my old control room is going (eventually) to be a vocal/acoustic guitar booth.It is already fairly dead with a foamed ceiling and laminate floor,we aim to take some of the foam of the walls and put in hanging traps to improve it. So thats the story so far,apologies for the length of time its taken to get back to you all...life does have a habit of getting in the way! Many thanks for all your help and advice so far!! More pics will follow as more progress is made. john.

Looking pretty darn good, actually! :)

Have to say even at this point the room sounds waaaay better...the drums sound immense!

:yahoo: Mission accomplished! (so far...). - Stuart -