New build, Essex UK

Hi, I've been following the forum for some time now, and would like to that everyone on here for making such a valuable resource. I've learnt a lot so far, and still have a long way to go! With that in mind, I thought I'd upload the progress I've made so far with my own studio design, and hopefully get some constructive criticism, as I'm sure there are a few glaring errors! Here are the details. I am renting a business unit that is part of a converted barn on a nearby farm. The space is 9.7m x 4.4m with a sloped ceiling that reaches 5.9m at its highest point. (see image 1) There is also a small room upstairs 3.5m x 3m and 2.4m high that I will be using as the control room. The design for this will be finished soon and I'll upload as soon as it is, but for now the live room is my concern. The units are only separated by stud walls, and there is a metal roller shutter on the front. So at present, there is very little sound isolation at all. As you will see from the images below, I plan to build a room within a room, and isolate as much noise - both outward and inward - as possible. The plan is for double stud walls with 2 layers of 15mm plasterboard on one side of each of the walls (see diagram). The floor of the unit is solid concrete, so I was under the impression that this was probably the best surface I could hope for. Although it would be nice not to be walking directly on concrete, so I'm wondering how best to treat this. The walls in the vocal booth will be inside out, to create as dead a space as possible. I am still unsure what treatment to use on the walls of the live room though. Levels inside are likely to reach about 90db. I don't have an exact isolation level that I need to achieve outside, as I have no neighbours and am far enough away from any residential buildings not to be a problem, but I would like a well isolated and treated space to work in. I will be recording a lot of acoustic music, but will also be using the space for rehearsals with live drums and amped guitars at some point. I can't see us exceeding 90db though. If anyone would like to weigh in on the designs below, I would love to hear if and where I've gone wrong. Also, if I've missed anything, or not followed any of the rules correctly (I've made sure location has been filled out!) please let me know and I'll get these fixed. Nick.

Hi there Nick, and welcome! :)

The space is 9.7m x 4.4m with a sloped ceiling that reaches 5.9m at its highest point

That's a nice sized space for a live room. It should sound good.

There is also a small room upstairs 3.5m x 3m and 2.4m high that I will be using as the control room.

Are you aware of the issues with trying to isolate a room on the second floor? You probably are, but it's better to ask... :)

The floor of the unit is solid concrete, so I was under the impression that this was probably the best surface I could hope for. Although it would be nice not to be walking directly on concrete, so I'm wondering how best to treat this.

Any hard reflective surface will work fine. If you don't like concrete, then a really good option often used in studios, is laminate flooring, properly laid over a suitable underlay. Other options are ceramic or stone tiles, and linoleum. There are many attractive, good quality surfaces these days, so whichever you happen to like most will be fine.

The walls in the vocal booth will be inside out, to create as dead a space as possible. I am still unsure what treatment to use on the walls of the live room though.

There are many possibilities: it's a live room, so you probably want it to have some sort of "character" or "vibe" that makes it attractive to your target clientele. For example, if you are going to be recording classical music, opera singers, church choirs or similar genres, then you'd probably want it to be more reflective, "echoey" even, with a much longer reverb time than if you wanted to record contemporary rock or pop groups, which would probably want a "deader". Jazz would be different again, with a more diffuse sound. So design it for the type of clientele you want to attract. And if you don't know yet, or if you want it to be good for all possibilities, then make the acoustics variable: folding or sliding devices that can be opened or closed or moved to reveal more or less areas of absorption, reflection, or diffusion, as needed for each session.

I will be recording a lot of acoustic music, but will also be using the space for rehearsals with live drums and amped guitars at some point. I can't see us exceeding 90db though.

:shock: Rehearsal with live drums and guitar cabs is going to be way, way louder than that! At least one hundred times louder, and probably a thousand (in terms of sound power). In other words, in the range 110 dB to 120 dB. I have never met a drummer who can keep it down to 90 dB during rehearsal. Maybe with soft brushes on a very quiet romantic ballad, but not on a typical rock song. So I think you are way underestimating your sound levels. I would suggest that you buy a sound level meter, set it to "C" weighting and slow response, the measure a typical session that you expect would be representative of your what is going to happen in your room.

If anyone would like to weigh in on the designs below, ... Double stud walls, with 2x15mm plasterboard ... outer wall.

That's a three leaf wall. That will not give you optimum isolation for low frequency sounds, such as drums, bass, keyboards, etc. If you want optimum isolation, then you should use only 2-leaf walls. Also, you seem to have the condenser/compressor unit of a mini-split system in between your middle-leaf wall and your outer-leaf wall: How does that vent to the outside world? Those things need a huge amount of outside air flow to work, so there must be some pretty major venting in there that you don't show. It would be good if you could show that in your model, and also your calculations, so we can check that you really are allowing enough external airflow through that unit. Is there a reason why you didn't just put that outside, where it would normally go in a typical installation? Having it indoors like that really complicates things unnecessarily. You also seem to be wasting a LOT of space to accommodate that, and there's also the issue of where the condensate line will drain to: is there a floor drain at that location, such as an old bathroom drain? If not, then where will the water go' You also seem to be showing only one mini-split system, yet you mentioned two rooms: "live room" and "vocal both". How are you going to cool and dehumidify the vocal booth? It's a much smaller room, so it needs (proportionally) more ventilation, cooling and dehumidifying, to keep conditions usable. You also don't show the fresh air ventilation system, or the stale air extraction system, which are key parts of any HVAC design. How are you going to get fresh air into each of the rooms, and how are you going to exhaust stale air from them to the outside world? Here too, it would be good if you could shoe the entire system (along with the calculations), to make sure that there are no red flags with that. HVAC is generally the most overlooked part of all home-studio design. Finally, you don't show insulation anywhere in your model, but that is also critical, both for isolation and for treatment. Once again, it would be good if you could show it, so we can confirm if your plan is covering all bases, in that respect. And photos of the actual building would help too! :) - Stuart -

Hi Stuart, Many thanks for such a quick and detailed response. Apologies for being so slow at getting back to you. The 9 to 5 is literally dominating my life at the moment! (It's funding the studio though, so I shouldn't complain) I also needed to go and read up a little more on hvac before posting again. Although I have to say, I'm still pretty baffled by the subject (no pun intended...) I've made a few adjustments to the Sketchup design, and have added more detail to the control room. I've also actually attached the file, since I managed to forget that last time: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/44564556/Studio_Final_V2.zip

Are you aware of the issues with trying to isolate a room on the second floor?...

In general I think so. The whole ceiling/floor scenario etc...? However, as you'll be able to see from the sketchup file and photos, this isn't so much a second floor, more a floating mezzanine level. I think I will still have to isolate the floor though, so any advice on what to do there would be greatly appreciated as I've been scared off the idea of floating floors from what I've read so far!

Any hard reflective surface will work fine. If you don't like concrete, then a really good option often used in studios, is laminate flooring...

Thats's what I was hoping you'd say! :D

There are many possibilities: it's a live room, so you probably want it to have some sort of "character" or "vibe" that makes it attractive to your target clientele. For example, if you are going to be recording classical music, opera singers, church choirs or similar genres, then you'd probably want it to be more reflective, "echoey" even, with a much longer reverb time than if you wanted to record contemporary rock or pop groups, which would probably want a "deader". Jazz would be different again, with a more diffuse sound. So design it for the type of clientele you want to attract. And if you don't know yet, or if you want it to be good for all possibilities, then make the acoustics variable: folding or sliding devices that can be opened or closed or moved to reveal more or less areas of absorption, reflection, or diffusion, as needed for each session.

I definitely want it to have some nice character, rather than being too dead. I really like the design of the Bunker Studio in NY (a Rod Gervias design, I think?) with its all-wood finish. This may be a bit ambitious, but I really like the idea of the slat walls to keep the high frequencies alive and control some of the lowers, as well as looking great. I do have a slight concern about my control room design. As you'll see from the pictures of what is to become the control room, the existing ceiling slopes. I'm hoping this won't be too much of a problem, as I'll be adding a new ceiling, so this will just have to be taken from the lower side and carried across. It won't be a problem in terms of isolation will it? (I'm assuming a bigger air gap at one side than the other wouldn't cause an issue)

Rehearsal with live drums and guitar cabs is going to be way, way louder than that! At least one hundred times louder, and probably a thousand (in terms of sound power). In other words, in the range 110 dB to 120 dB. I have never met a drummer who can keep it down to 90 dB during rehearsal. Maybe with soft brushes on a very quiet romantic ballad, but not on a typical rock song. So I think you are way underestimating your sound levels. I would suggest that you buy a sound level meter, set it to "C" weighting and slow response, the measure a typical session that you expect would be representative of your what is going to happen in your room.

Yes, this was very silly of me :oops: not sure what I was thinking there! I have to admit, that was a bit of a 'finger in the air' type estimate. I haven't been able to test anyone in the actual space, but I have visited once of the bands I'll be working with and the levels got up to around 116db.

That's a three leaf wall. That will not give you optimum isolation for low frequency sounds, such as drums, bass, keyboards, etc. If you want optimum isolation, then you should use only 2-leaf walls.

I completely understand the benefits of two-leaf walls, and do want to achieve optimum isolation. I don't think my previous image was very clear, but the problem is that currently the walls that separate me from the neighbouring units on either side are thin stud walls, so there are already two leaves between us. I can't make any changes to these, so the moment I start to build any walls in my unit, I'll be adding a third leaf. I'm really hoping you can advise me on how best to deal with this problem? (please don't say 'find a new location'!)

Also, you seem to have the condenser/compressor unit of a mini-split system

I had originally put that in as a starting point, but I've realised that it's not really the best option. I've added some ducting into the sketchup file (which I'm sure is probably completely wrong!) but after looking at various sites and products, I came across this, which looks like it might be just the thing I need... http://www.vent-axia.com/range/lo-carbon-sentinel-kinetic.html https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/44564556/KineticPlus_Catalogue.pdf This could attach to the wall above the main front door, where there are a couple of options for drainage, and plenty of fresh air. Rod's book has been a great source of information for, well, just about everything, but has really helped me start to get my head around the subject of hvac. I have attached the spreadsheet I created (using Rod's templates) with my calculations for each room. Hopefully it makes some kind of sense! https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/44564556/HVAC_V4.xls

Finally, you don't show insulation anywhere in your model

Haha, yes I did manage to leave that out of all the images didn't I! You'll be able to see the insulation in the Sketchup model.

And photos of the actual building would help too!

Absolutely! Here they are...

Here's what was suggested to me. The concept is to remove the drywall on your side of the wall (though check codes/landlord/etc to be sure the changes are appropriate to your circumstances... to be sure no changes are being made to a code required structure) Assuming it's appropriate to you, remove drywall on your side, and place the extra mass between the studs and against the drywall on the other side of the wall. Then build your new interior wall, and it too has only one mass surface. This would give you your 2 leaves. Would that type of thing be doable in your circumstance?

Hi Johnnie, Many thanks for the suggestion. Unfortunately, this wouldn't be doable as I've spoken to the landlord and I'm not allowed to mess with the existing structure. Very frustrating!

Unfortunately, this wouldn't be doable as I've spoken to the landlord and I'm not allowed to mess with the existing structure. Very frustrating!

Pity, as Johnnie has the right solution. If you can't take off the drywall on your walls, then you are stuck with 3-leaf walls, which means you need a lot more mass, and a lot more space. But you don't have much space in width, so the final room is going to be smallish on the inside.

I've made a few adjustments to the Sketchup design, and have added more detail to the control room. I've also actually attached the file,

OK, great! I downloaded it, and very nice job that is with Sketchup! :) :yahoo: :thu: Grouping components into layers makes it much easier to understand, and adding scenes makes it easier still. The basic idea looks good, but you seem to be wasting space with the small door on the left side of the LR. If you remove that, then you can make the room a lot wider at that end. Also, the double-wide main doors into the LR will be a problem: there's no good way to build doors like that so they seal properly, since there is nothing solid and fixed rigidly in the middle where they meet. It might be better to just have one large door.

The whole ceiling/floor scenario etc...?

Not really. That's a part of it, but the main issue is weight: You will be adding a couple of tons of mass up there, for the isolation, treatment, equipment, etc. You will most definitely need a structural engineer to check the existing structure for you, and tell you what you need to do to beef up the building enough to handle that load. Then there's the issue of damping: if you build a studio on to of a concrete "slab on grade", then the entire planet is acting as a damper. If you build it up higher, you have no damping at all, so the floor will ring and resonate at all of its natural frequencies. There are other issues, but those are the biggies.

I think I will still have to isolate the floor though,

Right! But that's not so easy, for the reasons above. You CAN do it, but it needs lots of mass... The big question here is: how much isolation do you need? You might be OK, or you might not.

As you'll see from the pictures of what is to become the control room, the existing ceiling slopes. I'm hoping this won't be too much of a problem, as I'll be adding a new ceiling, so this will just have to be taken from the lower side and carried across. It won't be a problem in terms of isolation will it? (I'm assuming a bigger air gap at one side than the other wouldn't cause an issue)

Right. No problem. A bigger gap means a lower resonant frequency, which means better isolation. So it's the smallest gap that you need to use in your calculations. As long as the smallest gap is big enough, then the bigger side will be even better.

I can't make any changes to these, so the moment I start to build any walls in my unit, I'll be adding a third leaf. I'm really hoping you can advise me on how best to deal with this problem? (please don't say 'find a new location'!)

Naah, it's not that bad! You can do it. If you have no choice but to have three leaves, then you get optimum isolation when the mass on the middle leaf is the same as that of the other two leaves combined, and the air gaps are roughly the same size. That said, if the existing walls are plain old stud walls with drywall on each side, then adding two more leaves makes it a FOUR-leaf wall, not a 3-leaf...

I've added some ducting into the sketchup file

Much better! Now you are on the right track. However, the ducting needs to be improved a bit, and you need silencers on each room, not just one big one, or else you will have bleed between rooms coming through the HVAC ducts.

I came across this, which looks like it might be just the thing I need...

That looks like a heat exchanger, which is fine for saving energy, but it won't cool or dehumidify your rooms, which is what you need. So in addition to that unit, you'll still need some type of actual air conditioner. Either one for each room, or a larger air handler unit that can handle but, with suitable variable dampers, ducting and silencers.

Absolutely! Here they are...

Nice! :) - Stuart -

If you have no choice but to have three leaves, then you get optimum isolation when the mass on the middle leaf is the same as that of the other two leaves combined, and the air gaps are roughly the same size.

As I can't remove or mess with the drywall on the existing walls, I was wondering if the design in the image below might work? If I placed the new outer leaf of my existing design flush against the current inner leaf, would that work to beef up the wall? Or would it need to be screwed to it? (I'm guessing it probably would) If not, then that would mean my outer wall (2x15mm drywall) added to the existing inner leaf (1x12.5mm drywall) would then be the new beefed up middle leaf. This would then be equal to the new inner leaf (2x15mm drywall) + the outer leaf (1x12.5mm drywall) Not sure if I've explained that very well! Hopefully the image makes more sense...

very nice job that is with Sketchup!

Thank you! :D It's taken a while, but I'm getting there slowly!

...you seem to be wasting space with the small door on the left side of the LR...

There were two reasons I'd put the door like that. The first was that I'd read that it might be a good idea to angle the walls at 12 degrees to help avoid standing waves. The second was that if the new walls went all the way to the side, I'd end up with three doors where the front door is, and the one in the middle wouldn't open. I was trying to kill two birds with one stone, but agree that it's definitely wasting some valuable space.

It might be better to just have one large door.

I agree. I was trying to get a bit fancy there, but one large door would definitely be the way to go.

You will most definitely need a structural engineer to check the existing structure for you

I'm working on this one at the moment. Fortunately I have a friend that's a structural engineer, so I'm trying to arrange a time for him to come and assess the space (hopefully on a weekend, so I can just pay him with beer!)

The big question here is: how much isolation do you need?

For the control room I don't really need too much isolation, as noise escaping isn't too much of a concern. The unit is on a farm with no neighbours for miles, and the occupants of the other units are rarely there. I have also spoken to them and they aren't concerned about any noise. So I think I really need to focus on acoustic treatment for the CR. Which, given the tiny dimensions, I guess needs to involve a lot of absorption...

As long as the smallest gap is big enough, then the bigger side will be even better

Great! That's what I was hoping you'd say! :D I'm still really struggling with the HVAC / fresh air problem. I've contacted various local specialist companies, but they all charge an absolute fortune just to come and do an assessment of the premises. I had a look at some air handling units online, but they all look absolutely huge and would need their own room. My lack of knowledge on this subject is really frustrating! :evil: As always, any advice on the issues above is greatly appreciated.

...just thought I'd give this a quick bump, in case it'd been forgotten about :wink:

You're not forgotten! I'm personally in the "build it slowly and cheap" camp, so I know exactly what you mean about problems with HVAC. When I was reading through Rod Gervais Book, he had a suggestion for an "exchange chamber" approach to HVAC issues which was good for me. I see that you have a kitchen/open space too. Have you considered an exchange chamber approach? It seems well suited for the "do it yourself" types if a mini-split is stretching the budget too far. Basically, the concept is to have all your air treatment happening in the exchange chamber (and equipment that is sized to handle the total space) And then you run ducts to/from your spaces. All the fans/equipment/noise is occurring in the exchange chamber (and you put silencers on the penetrations into the live space) The obvious downside, is that zone control is out, but it strikes me as a pretty good system to use in a studio with relatively few rooms, that has a space that would be appropriate to use an exchange chamber.

Hi johnnie, I'm definitely in the "build it slowly and cheap" camp too! Having said that, I would probably stretch to a mini-split system if it wasn't for the noise issue. I wanted to try and avoid a system that we would have to keep switching off and back on after each take. The exchange chamber approach does sound like a good idea. I'm not sure it would fit in the kitchen area, but I could possibly fit it somewhere near the outside of the front door. Additionally, as you mention the lack of zone control, I have quite a small vocal booth compared to the size of the live room, so if there's no individual room control would this not end up like an ice box?! Are there no cheap ways of ducting the air in and out of the live room, and then having a controllable unit sitting, say, above the ceiling? (There will be loads of space between the LR ceiling and the roof of the main building) ...I really feel like I'm missing something obvious here :( Nick.

I would probably stretch to a mini-split system if it wasn't for the noise issue.

Some mini-splits are very quiet, and might not need to be switched on/off all the time. However, some do make an audible "click" as the compressor kicks in and out. But worth looking into. That way, you could have one in each room, and only turn on the one(s) that you need. But you still need ventilation, apart from the actual air conditioning. - Stuart -

I'll definitely have a look at some mini splits and see what the options are in terms of noise etc. I've also been thinking about the exchange chamber Johnnie was suggesting and stumbled across this... http://www.tizaro.com/product/HV1569/friedrich-vha09k34-packaged-units-heat-pump-9200-8900k?utm_source=google&utm_medium=merchantUK&utm_term=hvacr--air-conditioners&utm_content=vertical-packaged-a/c-&-heat-pumps&utm_campaign=friedrich-vha09k34-packaged-units-heat-pump-9200-8900k&gadvt_matchtype=&gadvt_network=g&gadvt_creative=33798038239&gadvt_keyword=&gadvt_adposition=1o1&gadvt_adtype=pla&gclid=CNrs_4Ghk7kCFXMbtAod0HAAYQ Am I right in thinking I could place this in the space outside the live room, (I'm thinking it could sit above the ceiling, where there'll be plenty of space and fresh air) and this will heat/cool the fresh air and deliver it to the room via ducting? I understand that I'll probably need more than one of these units, but it seems like a pretty good approach to avoid any noise issues, and take care of the fresh air/cooling requirements all in one.