It's daunting to finally be posting in this forum after reading post after post for a while now. I could go on and on but I have a feeling this post is going to be long enough so suffice to say, I'm in complete awe of the knowledge and helpfulness of everyone who participates in this forum. Thank you for providing this service to noobs like me.
The Budget, the Goal
Looking to convert my garage for a budget of $4k USD from a finished garage space to a place where I can at very least store and play a number of keyboards and guitars/amps I have accumulated over the years that are stuffed in a 2nd dining room at the moment semi-accessible. Looking for a larger space and in theory a place where I can play some of the louder instruments(upright piano) late into the evening without disrupting the kids/wife sleeping in the back room of a 1700 sq ft house. If possible I would even like to have a few bandmates over to play late into the evening in a low key band project(smaller amps like Vibrolux/Deluxe Reverbs, Ampeg B15s, jazz drum kits, hammond, rhodes, etc).
The house is a 2007 single story stone/rock exterior Lennar House in a new subdivision- fairly standard build for this part of Texas. I'm looking to convert the finished two car garage(roughly 18'x20'x8'6") with a room in a room design - basically maximize my space as best I can. Ideal room dimensions aren't a primary concern unless there are some easy wins. I would go to a real studio to record something I seriously wanted to release - this garage space is more to be a place to walk in an track ideas very quickly in the moment of creative inspiration and hopefully a place to rehearse occasionally if I can get the room quite enough to not be a complete nuisance to those sleeping inside. There are neighbors on either side of me - about 20ft away from the garage at the nearest point. I suppose they are a concern although it's a rental and the current tenants don't care about noise. A few considerations for the garage conversion:
- the garage door has to stay - would eventually convert back to a garage if I had to sell and the homeowners association regulations are a pain to deal with.
- the garage has attic access - a door with a fold up ladder that drops from the ceilling that gives access to the water heater. I'll have to be able to keep access to this somehow - can't think of another place to put this to gain access. :cry:
- the breaker box is mounted on the garage wall so yet another place I will have to get access to.
- the garage floor is part of the concrete slab(I think). From what I have read, it's not particularly cost effective at my price range to attempt to float a floor and still get bang for my buck so I'm planning on not putting any floor treatment in besides some padding and laminate wood from Costco.
- My $4k budget does not include any room treatments - I'll tackle that with a different budget once I have the space to play in.
The walls
Help me set up a solid plan. No work has been done yet - want a vetted plan from this forum before I engage a contractor. As mentioned earlier - the rough plan is room in a room. Here is what I'm thinking:
- remove all existing drywall in the garage (walls only) so the insulation is exposed.
- cut the track for the garage door and lock it so it can't be moved. The garage door will have to be a leaf unfortunately.
- sound proofing caulk everywhere - caulk the hell out of that flimsy garage door.
- Replace the current cheap pink insulation already there with something more heavy duty - am I correct that R19 is the stuff to use for this type of job? I have also seen R13 referenced. What's the value pick here?
-attach insulation to the cheap garage door.
- Frame four walls inside the garage. I'm arbitrarily saying 4" from the now exposed exterior wall frame. Is 4" spring too much/too little?
- Add insulation to the framed walls.
- place 5/8" sheet rock on frame.
- soundproofing calk all over.
- add layer of green glue
- add another layer of 5/8" sheet rock
- soundproofing calk all over again.
The Ceiling
I feel a lot less confident about this - it was the chapter I didn't quite understand as well in Rod's book.
- add R13/R19 insulation above garage(currently there is none there)
- attach Genie clips to the existing ceiling
- add a layer of 5/8" drywall
- add a layer of green glue
- add another layer of 5/8" drywall
- soundproof sealant/caulk all around my new ceiling.
Let's add holes to my room:
- obviously a heavy duty double solid core door would need to be installed in my room.
- a large hole(maybe 3'x2') in the ceiling with a tightly sealed door allowing me to open a cavity up so I can pull down the attic ladder - I'm open to suggestions for how this is achieved.
- another smaller hole in the far wall that can be removed for access to the breaker. Again, I'm looking for suggestions for best way to do this. I would think some heavyish mass and four latches with a seal. I don't know - at a loss here...
- a hole for an ductless European style AC unit. I don't know a ton about these but I have a contractor friend who is very familiair with them. I'm thinking I'm pushing it on adding more house to cool with my existing AC unit and I would image a separate split system would be beter for not waking the kids.
- a single entry point into the room for electrical and I just run some tracks mounted on the interior drywall for wires and external boxes for outlets. Obviously, trying to keep the number of places for sound to get out down to a minimum and realistically with a room of organs and pianos, you probably wouldn't see that wire track as much anyway.
Questions (summary):
-what type of insulation should I be using keeping in mind my relatively modest budget?
- Is there an advised "spring" distance between the frame of my inner wall and the frame of my outer walls?
- Would it make a difference if I let's say added inches to the spring on my garage door side? Should all sides be of equal distance in the dead space?
-is it wise to leave the current ceiling in place and add the Genie Clips - that would be a two leaf system, correct? Is there a better solution to the ceiling that doesn't require me to fundamentally change how the garage is framed from above?
- attic access & breaker box access - how do I solve this problem of adding two necessary holes in my wall/ceiling? I suspect from reading posts here I'm going to have to find a way to make attic access elsewhere - maybe I can make a hole in the dead space between the garage door from the house and the interior studio door. I know that's not ideal but putting that access in the house will likely receive the scorn of the commander in chief(my wife). Regarding the breaker box, would I need to just pay someone to reinstall it in the inner room?
- is there a better way I can approach any of this?
...again, I'm looking for a space that can at minimum allow me to play piano, organs, bang on a tambourine, and play low wattage amps without waking kids/wife late into the evening. If I can't do that, it's not worth it. Bonus points - If I can do something that allows me playing with a band and not drive my family in the house crazy, then I would be really really really happy but I'm skeptical that I can do that without the compromises mentioned earlier(keeping existing garage door, access holes for attic/breaker).
Thanks for all your help!
Austin garage conversion - how does this sound?
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 18179.
....did some more reading through old posts and I'm fairly certain the response on this is: - find another place for attic access - get the breaker put into your new inner room. I got in the ceiling above the garage and unless there is some code restriction about attic access hole distance from the water heater, I think it's likely fairly trivial to move the attic hole/ladder over to the next stud. In that scenario, the attic access would be in the dead space between the door from inside my house and the door into the rehearsal space. I would probably lose a few feet in my inner room as well but I suppose it's for a good cause. I realize that's likely not ideal either, but at least I'm not weakening the isolation in my inner room. I guess the only logical thing for the breaker is for it to be placed inside my inner room via that same single electrical access hole I referred to earlier or in the dead space between my interior doors for the house and rehearsal room. My only remaining concern is if there is again some city compliance check that needs to be done if the breaker is moved. Not that I got anything against inspectors and code, but whenever you start bringing building inspectors from the city in, it adds time and cost and I don't particularly have much of either to spare. Maybe it's different elsewhere, but I had to deal with it when I first moved in(luckily all on the builder's dime) and have had many friends with commercial properties who have had nightmare experiences. ...so anyway, barring any regulations a contractor might alert me to, let's assume I'm not going to have to do silly latched double doors in my inner room to access the breaker or attic as I mentioned earlier.- attic access & breaker box access - how do I solve this problem of adding two necessary holes in my wall/ceiling? I suspect from reading posts here I'm going to have to find a way to make attic access elsewhere - maybe I can make a hole in the dead space between the garage door from the house and the interior studio door. I know that's not ideal but putting that access in the house will likely receive the scorn of the commander in chief(my wife). Regarding the breaker box, would I need to just pay someone to reinstall it in the inner room?
Hi "glimmertwins", and welcome! :)
You have a decent space there, and realistic goals, but your budget seems to be a bit on the low side, for what you want to do. You might want to figure out where to get some more budget from.
You'll certainly be able to get the sound levels down quite a bit, but perhaps not enough for the "sleeping inside" part, due to your budget.hopefully a place to rehearse occasionally if I can get the room quite enough to not be a complete nuisance to those sleeping inside.
Ouch! That makes it a bit harder. Garage doors are about as good as isolating as a piece of paper!. You might have to build a wall just behind it, and lock down the mechanism so the door cannot move.- the garage door has to stay - would eventually convert back to a garage if I had to sell and the homeowners association regulations are a pain to deal with.
I think you already figure that one out... :)- the garage has attic access - a door with a fold up ladder that drops from the ceilling that gives access to the water heater. I'll have to be able to keep access to this somehow - can't think of another place to put this to gain access. :cry:
Excellent!- the garage floor is part of the concrete slab(I think).
Smart move. Floating your floor is unnecessary, and would eat up your entire budget, plus a few more cents on top...From what I have read, it's not particularly cost effective at my price range to attempt to float a floor
Yes, but it can be the outer leaf of a 3-leaf system, so you can still get good isolation.- cut the track for the garage door and lock it so it can't be moved. The garage door will have to be a leaf unfortunately.
The thermal insulation numbers are pretty meaningless for acoustics, but a good indicator of the acoustic properties is density. It depends on the type: if you use fiberglass insulation, then get something that has a density of about 30 kg/m3. If you use mineral wool insulation, then look for stuff with a density of about 50 kg/m3.- Replace the current cheap pink insulation already there with something more heavy duty - am I correct that R19 is the stuff to use for this type of job? I have also seen R13 referenced. What's the value pick here?
Depends on your isolation needs! What matters is that your MSM resonate frequency is low enough and that you have enough mass in the walls to get the isolation you need. The equations for calculating this only take into account the mass and the size of the air gap, so more mass and bigger air gaps are good, but you also don't want to waste space unnecessarily.- Frame four walls inside the garage. I'm arbitrarily saying 4" from the now exposed exterior wall frame. Is 4" spring too much/too little?
Your basic plan is good. That will work.Here is what I'm thinking:
Not to the existing ceiling, but rather to the existing ceiling joists. In other words, take off the existing drywall first so you only have joists up there, then put the clips and hat channel up, and put the new drywall on. Do NOT leave the old drywall on. The rest of the plan is fine. The alternative plan is to not attach anything to the existing ceiling, but rather to put new joists across the top of your new inner-leaf walls, and hang the new ceiling drywall from that. That will give you even better isolation.The Ceiling I feel a lot less confident about this - it was the chapter I didn't quite understand as well in Rod's book. - add R13/R19 insulation above garage(currently there is none there) - attach Genie clips to the existing ceiling
Two of them, actually; back to back, one in each leaf.- obviously a heavy duty double solid core door would need to be installed in my room.
Just move the entire box to the inner leaf. You'll waste more time, effort and money trying to come up with a suitable, sealable soundproof hatch for the box, than it would cost to move it.- another smaller hole in the far wall that can be removed for access to the breaker. Again, I'm looking for suggestions for best way to do this. I would think some heavyish mass and four latches with a seal. I don't know - at a loss here...
A split system would be a good solution, but you still need ducts! Your studio will be doubly sealed, perfectly air.tight, twice over. People have this strange habit: they like to breath. But if you put them in an air-tight room, then after a while they overcome this habit, and they stop breathing. Rumor has it that people who stop breathing don't stay "people" afterwards... :) So you MUST have air ducts to bring in fresh air and exhaust the stale air. Those ducts must go through silencers.- a hole for an ductless European style AC unit. I don't know a ton about these but I have a contractor friend who is very familiair with them. I'm thinking I'm pushing it on adding more house to cool with my existing AC unit and I would image a separate split system would be beter for not waking the kids.
Yes: Absolute minimum distance between leaves is 4". NOTE: between the LEAVES, not the FRAMES. More air gap is better isolation. Once you get to about 12" of air gap, then you start getting int diminishing returns.- Is there an advised "spring" distance between the frame of my inner wall and the frame of my outer walls?
Each side should be calculated to give the same overall isolation down to the same frequency. That might mean more mass or bigger air gaps on some sides, smaller on other.- Would it make a difference if I let's say added inches to the spring on my garage door side? Should all sides be of equal distance in the dead space?
Nope!-is it wise to leave the current ceiling in place and add the Genie Clips
3-leaf: the roof deck itself counts as a leaf.that would be a two leaf system, correct?
Just take off the existing drywall, put up the clips and hat channel, then put two layers of 5/8" drywall on that. No changes to framing needed.Is there a better solution to the ceiling that doesn't require me to fundamentally change how the garage is framed from above?
You can certainly accomplish that. But if you start bashing on the drum kit, that will still get through.I'm looking for a space that can at minimum allow me to play piano, organs, bang on a tambourine, and play low wattage amps without waking kids/wife late into the evening.
yup! :) It sounds like you have a basic plan! Now I'd suggest that you draw it all up in SketchUp, and post that here, for double-checking. - Stuart -....did some more reading through old posts and I'm fairly certain the response on this is: - find another place for attic access - get the breaker put into your new inner room.
Thanks for the reply Soundman2020! As for budget, - upped it to 5k. Taking money out of 401k(honestly, my "future" will be playing music in this room so why wait till retirement?). I could possibly add another $500-$1000 to that if I'm patient and wait till later in the summer.Hi "glimmertwins", and welcome! :) You have a decent space there, and realistic goals, but your budget seems to be a bit on the low side, for what you want to do. You might want to figure out where to get some more budget from.
Was definitely planning on locking the garage but if I'm understanding you properly, your saying build a wall right up to it? in addition to my inner room wall? So from the inner room there would be drywall(mass), framing/insulation(air) drywall(mass), framing/insulation(air), and then garage door(mass)? For an aluminum garage door that has little mass, does it make more sense to have a 4 leaf system than a two leaf? I read something on this forum about adding some type of foam to make the garage door one mass with the wall you put in front of it but I don't think I have budget to do something like that. I guess my question here is what's the cost effective way to deal with that metal garage door?Ouch! That makes it a bit harder. Garage doors are about as good as isolating as a piece of paper!. You might have to build a wall just behind it, and lock down the mechanism so the door cannot move.- the garage door has to stay - would eventually convert back to a garage if I had to sell and the homeowners association regulations are a pain to deal with.
Ahh - there is the answer right there. So if I'm standing in my inner room facing the garage door side of the room it would be drywall(doubled up with green glue), framing/insulation, then another layer of drywall(probably green glue the backside facing the garage to give it more mass), and then another framing/insulation layer and finally my garage door. Did I get that right?Yes, but it can be the outer leaf of a 3-leaf system, so you can still get good isolation.- cut the track for the garage door and lock it so it can't be moved. The garage door will have to be a leaf unfortunately.
Okay so it sounds like I should just go for what's cheapest at the time that meets those specs.The thermal insulation numbers are pretty meaningless for acoustics, but a good indicator of the acoustic properties is density. It depends on the type: if you use fiberglass insulation, then get something that has a density of about 30 kg/m3. If you use mineral wool insulation, then look for stuff with a density of about 50 kg/m3.- Replace the current cheap pink insulation already there with something more heavy duty - am I correct that R19 is the stuff to use for this type of job? I have also seen R13 referenced. What's the value pick here?
This makes sense - I suppose I could just hang a new ceiling wall from the joists on my inner room. Looking in Rod's book again, if I removed the existing garage ceiling, I suppose I could stagger some inner room joists up top in between the existing garage joists and lose minimal height in my inner room. I floated room in a room to a contractor friend of mine and he expressed concern that the room might be a tad too large to put ceiling joists in that would hang two layers of drywall. Then he mumbled I guess we could try ...and I didn't catch the rest. Is it as simple as installing some roughly 18 ft long joists between opposite walls - would that require a double frame or could it be done with a single frame that is also holding my inner walls up?Not to the existing ceiling, but rather to the existing ceiling joists. In other words, take off the existing drywall first so you only have joists up there, then put the clips and hat channel up, and put the new drywall on. Do NOT leave the old drywall on. The rest of the plan is fine. The alternative plan is to not attach anything to the existing ceiling, but rather to put new joists across the top of your new inner-leaf walls, and hang the new ceiling drywall from that. That will give you even better isolation.
Got it - A friend built one and offered to help me with this. He even knows of some good resell spots that tend to have solid core doors available on the cheap.Two of them, actually; back to back, one in each leaf.- obviously a heavy duty double solid core door would need to be installed in my room.
Okay, I'm confused now. I had read John Sayers in another post recommend a heat pump because he said the normal split units just cool the air but don't actually bring air in. My question is, some(many) of these units have a heat pump built in. Does that cover my needs? Is there a mini-split unit that would recirculate air? Should I be looking at something else for HVAC? I'm concerned that the cost of purchasing a split unit and a separate heat pump would eat up most budget by itself. Definitely want to do it right so what should I do here? http://www.ac-world.com/MiniSplitAir.phpA split system would be a good solution, but you still need ducts! Your studio will be doubly sealed, perfectly air.tight, twice over. People have this strange habit: they like to breath. But if you put them in an air-tight room, then after a while they overcome this habit, and they stop breathing. Rumor has it that people who stop breathing don't stay "people" afterwards... :) So you MUST have air ducts to bring in fresh air and exhaust the stale air. Those ducts must go through silencers.- a hole for an ductless European style AC unit. I don't know a ton about these but I have a contractor friend who is very familiair with them. I'm thinking I'm pushing it on adding more house to cool with my existing AC unit and I would image a separate split system would be beter for not waking the kids.
Fantastic - thanks!Yes: Absolute minimum distance between leaves is 4". NOTE: between the LEAVES, not the FRAMES. More air gap is better isolation. Once you get to about 12" of air gap, then you start getting int diminishing returns.- Is there an advised "spring" distance between the frame of my inner wall and the frame of my outer walls?
Is that something I can figure or would that require "a professional"? If I just "wing it" - how bad could I screw it up? :lol:Each side should be calculated to give the same overall isolation down to the same frequency. That might mean more mass or bigger air gaps on some sides, smaller on other.- Would it make a difference if I let's say added inches to the spring on my garage door side? Should all sides be of equal distance in the dead space?
Thanks again, Stuart! I have been toying with SkethUp but I can't seem to make it behave the way I want it to quickly enough. Think I'm going to switch to something else like some graph paper and just post a photo. At this rate it will take me a month or two to get the inner room build diagrammed out the way I want in sketchup.It sounds like you have a basic plan! Now I'd suggest that you draw it all up in SketchUp, and post that here, for double-checking. - Stuart -
Correct. Sometimes you have no choice but to build a 3-leaf system. When that happens, it just needs to be designed to compensate for the 3-leaf effect.but if I'm understanding you properly, your saying build a wall right up to it? in addition to my inner room wall? So from the inner room there would be drywall(mass), framing/insulation(air) drywall(mass), framing/insulation(air), and then garage door(mass)?
This is 3-leaf, not 4-leaf: the garage door itself is one leaf, then comes the new wall that you build right nest to it to close it off, then comes the inner-leaf. Depending on how the current garage wall is built, it might be 4-leaf is a very few places, but not enough to worry about, and you can probably fix those anyway by taking off drywall somewhere. This is what it would look like: (In this specific case above, the existing garage wall has drywall on it, so the entire build is 3-leaf (the outer siding is not show above, for clarity), so ideally that would have to be removed for best isolation.)For an aluminum garage door that has little mass, does it make more sense to have a 4 leaf system than a two leaf?
I wouldn't do that. You could, perhaps, put some rubber on the surface of the garage door to prevent it from "ringing", but I would not fill the entire cavity with foam, for many reasons.I read something on this forum about adding some type of foam to make the garage door one mass with the wall you put in front of it
Well, Green Glue doesn't add much mass! :) GG is a damping material that helps to improve low frequency isolation.then another layer of drywall(probably green glue the backside facing the garage to give it more mass),
Exactly! Sound waves can't read price tags, so the really don't give a hoot how much you pay for your materials! :) They only react to the physical properties of the materials (mass, stiffness, air flow resistivity, etc.).Okay so it sounds like I should just go for what's cheapest at the time that meets those specs.
Exactly.I suppose I could stagger some inner room joists up top in between the existing garage joists and lose minimal height in my inner room.
Well, you do have to dimension the joists correctly! There are span tables, charts and calculators for this, but bottom line: get a structural engineer to check out your plans and your existing garage, and give you the heads-up, in writing, before proceeding. You'll be hanging a huge amount of mass above your head, so you better make sure that what you are doing is both legal and SAFE!room in a room to a contractor friend of mine and he expressed concern that the room might be a tad too large to put ceiling joists in that would hang two layers of drywall. Then he mumbled I guess we could try
It MUST be done on he same inner-leaf framing. The inner-leaf needs to be one continuous "shell", with all parts sealed together, and no part touching anything that is not "inner-leaf". It is an isolated "envelope". However, spanning 18 feet with two layers of 5/8" drywall is not so easy: You'd be looking at 2x10 joists for that, probably, and maybe more. So do make sure you are spanning across the shortest distance, and the span that you measure is just the unsupported section of the joist, between the two inner leaf walls. But your structural engineer can tell you about that more accurately, and what you need to meet your local code.Is it as simple as installing some roughly 18 ft long joists between opposite walls - would that require a double frame or could it be done with a single frame that is also holding my inner walls up?
"Heat pump" is basically just another name for the mechanism of an air conditioner, except that it can be reversed to also heat the room, if needed, instead of just cooling it. But it is still the same basic principal: a compressor with a radiator and fan in the box that goes outside, connected by copper pipes to the other "box" that goes inside the room, and basically contains another radiator and fan. That's what a "mini-split" system is. Some are cooling-only, some can heat and cool, in which case "heat pump" is the more appropriate technical term for the box-that-goes-outside. But "heat pump" does not imply that the system also moves fresh air in and stale air out. That's a different part of the system. You need both: You need the actual mechanical system as described above, regardless of whether it does both heating and cooling or just cooling, and you also need ducts to move fresh / stale air.Okay, I'm confused now. I had read John Sayers in another post recommend a heat pump because he said the normal split units just cool the air but don't actually bring air in. My question is, some(many) of these units have a heat pump built in.
The "heat pump" is part of the mini-split system, not something separate. It is the same basic principle of operation, as described above. A heat pump is basically just an air conditioner where the flow of the coolant can be reversed, so that it will either heat the room or cool the room, as needed. You do not need both heat-pump and mini-split. A mini-split in your room is all that you need for controlling the temperature and humidity. But IN ADDITION to that, you also need ducts, fans, and silencers to bring in some fresh air and exhaust the stale air.I'm concerned that the cost of purchasing a split unit and a separate heat pump
There are a few. Not many, and most don't, but there are a couple that do have a built-in "mini duct" that also brings in a bit of fresh air. However, I'm not aware of any min-split that also has an extra duct to remove stale air, and with a studio you do need that. For an ordinary home, that is not a problem since there are multiple paths that air can take back out of the room. But a studio is double-sealed air-tight, so there is no way for the stale air to get out, and therefore those mini-split that do bring in fresh air will not do the job very well! So you need proper ducts anyway. They don't have to be fancy: just a round duct with a fan in it to move the air, and a silencer box on the leaf penetrations to prevent sound getting through, and that's it. Of course, you do need to make sure that the duct is big enough for the room, and that the fan moves enough air, quietly, but it isn't complicated.Is there a mini-split unit that would recirculate air?
You can calculate it if you want (the math isn't that complex), or you could just take a look at IR-761, which is a document that shows literally hundreds of types of isolation construction that were tested in an acoustical laboratory, and gives the results of how well each one isolates. If you follow what they show, then you'll get good isolation.Is that something I can figure or would that require "a professional"?
How lucky do you feel, and how many rabbit's feet do you have? :) It is possible to screw up pretty bad, without trying too hard. But if you follow the general "rules of thumb" then you should be OK: Those are: Two leaves only, on separate frames, minimum 4" air gap, minimum one layer of 5/8" drywall on each leaf, both leaves totally sealed air-tight, and plenty of insulation in the air gap between them. Or even better, follow the exact method from IR-761 that best fits your needs.If I just "wing it" - how bad could I screw it up?
Take a look at the on-line tutorials for it. There are plenty of good ones that walk you through the basics. After a while it just sort of "clicks", and starts making sense. The key is to make everything into individual "components", instead of leaving them as surfaces... So the six surfaces that make up a stud should be grouped as a component, then you can duplicate that component as many times as you need. And if you then change the length of any one of those copies, they all change to follow (for example, if you need to change the height of your walls). Etc. But work through the tutorials, until you get the hang of it. You'll be glad you did! :)I have been toying with SkethUp but I can't seem to make it behave the way I want it to quickly enough.
It will take many, MANY times longer if you do it on paper! :shock: And don't forget that sound is 3D, not 2D. You need to be able to visualize how sound interacts with the room in full 3D, and that is really hard to do with pencil and paper... :) - Stuart -Think I'm going to switch to something else like some graph paper and just post a photo. At this rate it will take me a month or two to get the inner room build diagrammed out the way I want in sketchup.