Multiple Room Home Studio Build - Mesa, AZ

Hey folks! First poster here, from Mesa, AZ! I've been a silent reader for 5-6 years now, and it's finally my turn to build! :) I'm purchasing a house right now -- and I've been reading about low ceiling studios being an issue, and I'm frankly becoming scared! I have a 7 page plan of execution that I want to post here, but I'm thinking that maybe I shouldn't even bother if my main room ceiling is going to be problematic for me. So before I post all of that, maybe you guys can tell me if I need to just walk away. I plan on going room inside a room with whisperclips, two leafs, 4 layers with GG in between on concrete slab. My main live room has a 15x35 room but ceilings slant from about 8'2 down to 6'7-7'ish. This is on the edge of the house which is brick, and the crawl space becomes non-existant above this section of the ceiling. I plan on hanging OC703 over the drummer's playing position to help "neutralize" the ceiling, and using some front and side address mics to help me with my OH and stereo room imaging. Can this work? The only reason I have not posted my 7 page document is because I don't have windows to run sketchup on, so I need to figure out how I'm going to get those drawn up so that I can post. I close on the house in 3 weeks, and need to get started on the build right away. I also have 2 smaller rooms that I'll be introducing into the equation with higher ceilings. Any help would be appreciated! Thanks.

Bump... didn't want this to fall off into nowhere land. Any discussion on this would be greatly appreciated! If you need more information, please ask!

Please forgive how crude this image was. It was my first time :P The roof above this structure is a flat roof with no crawlspace. I'm considering having the room raised on this place. Thoughts?

Hi, We're only getting a glimpse of all you want to achieve ... The height of the original build is low. No doubt this will be a serious restriction dealing with drum overheads. Especially when you, rightfully, consider angled clouds above the area. Those could easily add an additional 1 to 1-1/2 ft of height loss. A 15 ft wide exterior building would allow a decent size control room [say 12ft wide x 15ft deep] ... what's left would be for the live room. If the structure AND the budget allow, raising the 'ceiling' height to 10, 12 [or more] would definitely be a plus. If planned correctly, with enough initial height, you can provide upper space for things HVAC runs, etc. What's the plan for the build ? Type of recording ? Number of musicians at a time ?

RJ, Thank you for the reply! I'm thinking the same thing RE: ceiling height & crawlspace for ducting. This would be my main live room, with a control room in a separate space. My first concern was ceiling height and whether or not it would work at current height, or if it would be cost effective to try and bring the roof up -- since it's such a thin roof already, and all walls are made of brick. I do have a 6 page plan that I intend to post here, but did not want to post it prematurely without including the sketchup drawings, whereas to adhere to the forum rules the best I could. In the document it states my intent, the other rooms that I would like to build along with their purposes, material list, etc. So I hope to be able to get some rough room sketches together for the group this week. Just to answer some of your initial questions though. I'd like to do room inside a room design using 2 layers of 1/2" drywall (can't afford 1/2 + 5/8ths) on whisperclips, with GG sandwiched in between. I'd like one large ISO room that cuts across the width of the room in a "cheese wedge" fashion from about 15' off of one end of the room lengthwise, and to the corner across the width of the room. (This will be illustrated in the sketchup). Between the control room, live room, and iso, I'd like to be able to accommodate 4 people at once, or squeeze a few more in if necessary. Second phase of my build includes plans for more rooms, but budget will not allow if I plan on raising the room in the first phase -- especially after taking ventilation into consideration as well. Thanks again for the reply. I will absolutely keep up with this thread and post more information just as soon as possible.

Hi there, "audiobynick", and welcome! :)

My main live room has a 15x35 room but ceilings slant from about 8'2 down to 6'7-7'ish.

It's a nice sized room with possibilities, and the 8'2" is OK, but the 6'7" is not so OK! Any chance you could either raise the roof or lower the floor?

Can this work?

I think it CAN work, yes, but it all depends on what you want to use it for. If this is just a rehearsal space for you and your buddies to do a bit of jamming, then fine, no problem at all. But if this is going to be a commercial facility for top notch recording, then that's rather "iffy".

I'd like to do room inside a room design using 2 layers of 1/2" drywall

1/2" drywall is not recommended for studio isolation, especially if we are talking acoustic drums. It is too thin, flexible, low mass, not nice resonant characteristics, etc. Just go with 5/8".

I will absolutely keep up with this thread and post more information just as soon as possible.

Looking forward to it! :) Photos of the actual room would also help us to understand what you are dealing with. - Stuart -

Thanks for the welcome Stuart -- and the feedback. Maybe my originally intended post will help shed some light on what I'm trying to do, as well as help kick off some momentum on getting details of my build ironed out. At this point I'm absolutely overwhelmed by all of the options, and the thought of screwing something up royally in terms of missing an expensive planning detail. So without further delay -- my introductory message. Greetings John & Site Contributors! I'd like to start out first by thanking John for the amazing resources you have put together, and made available to us over of the years. I have been a silent reader, following your site for about 5 or 6 years now, and finally have my first opportunity at building and owning my own home studio. It recently passed inspection, and appraisal, and I'll soon be moving into the home in a couple of weeks and demo will begin. Currently I'm living and working out of a home studio that has no isolation and very poorly controlled rooms, and can't wait to get the ball rolling in the new space. I'll do my best to post within the confines of the rules, and provide all pertinent information. Please forgive me if I missed anything or misused some terms that I'm still trying to become familiar with. I plan on posting the progress of the build if the JS community gets involved with this build. Intent: My work usually consists of 50-60% mixing, and 40-50% tracking. I do everything from voice over recordings to solo projects, and live bands -- along with tons of mix projects. So projects range from small one room multi-tracking scenarios to bigger, live, 3-4 room setups. So _all_ of the rooms will be tied into Studio A, and ISO 3+4 will tie into Studio B with I/O's. The home I'm moving into I would like to commit 4-5 rooms to the audio side of things, which in my initial plans would include 2 control rooms, 1 live room, and 3 isolation booths. This home was built in the early 60's and sits on a solid cement foundation. All but one exterior wall is made of brick, with a slanted shingled roof throughout most of the home, with the exception of "Control Room B" where a room was poorly added onto the house after-the-fact. More on this later. Additionally, I'd like to be able to rent out the second room when I'm not using it for one of our own projects.  So the two spaces would need to audibly impede on each other the least amount possible. Maybe STC55 or greater? I'm not 100% stuck on my design plans, however these are my initial ideas, and will get into more of the details once I have committed to a floor plan, hopefully with your help! Floorplan: Room Floorplan & Label Index: Dining Room = Control Room A Family Room = Live Room A & ISO1 (Northwest) Storage = ISO 2 / Airlock (West) 2 Car Carport = Live Room B (Southwest) Attached to the 2 Car Carport & Storage room is an addition / hidden room that will eventually contain Control Room B. (West) Build Scenario: Studio A As you can see in the attached sketch up, Live Room A adjoins Control Room A, and isolation (of course) will be important -- so I was planning on pulling down all of the drywall and ceiling in Live Room A, and Control Room A and employing a decoupled room-inside-a-room design, leaving a 2" air gap, filling with 2-4" rock wool behind both leafs which will be hung on whisper clips. Each leaf I plan on being double layers of drywall 2x 1/2" (Unless I can afford 1x 1/2" & 1x 5/8ths drywall) w/ GG in between all around; resting on neoprene pads - 1/4" spacing between intersecting walls and ceilings, and green glue sealing calking on all seams (this goes for all rooms). In addition, there will be one window, and no door going into the live room due to my fear of loss of isolation. I feel that Live Room A will be my most problematic room as I have already identified having two big obstacles here -- one is potentially very costly. (I'm getting there…) Towards South end of the live room, I'd like to add an iso booth (utilizing the same style of construction methods) in order to throw the symmetry of the room off. Of course this pays respects to room modes and also to add an attenuating 4-layer, 2-leaf air-lock in between the two studios for when we're using both spaces simultaneously. This is also where I'd like to keep the mics and store cables. We'll often have a vocal session going and guitar session. Probably not many days we'd book drums and vocals simultaneously if we could help it. But if we can get that type of isolation out of the build and the budget -- LET'S DO IT! Ideally there will be two decoupled dual paned sliding glass doors here to allow for line of sight between musicians and for easy equipment load-ins. Nothing's Perfect! Problem 1: Live Room A: The ceilings are LOW, and the way that the house was built, the roof slants down and gets very narrow, and the crawlspace is almost nonexistent in this part of the house and goes from about 8' and slants down to around 7', maybe even 6'7". I know that this will be tall enough for overheads. I planned on doing a few things to help with this issue -- let me know if I'm on the right track. Possible Solutions: 1 . I need to suspend 2" OC703 over the drum area leaving 1-2" air gap between fiberglass and ceiling in order to help effectively "neutralize" the ceilings existence. I understand that this comes at the expense of losing more "headroom" so to speak. And I'll need hard flooring in order to keep the room "live", since the ceiling will be absorbing just about everything that hits it. 2. Probably need to utilize a tighter overhead micing technique, and/or side-address mics as overheads along with well placed room mic -- in order to get "the sound". 3. Raise the roof. This is actually the option I'm leaning towards so far. However, this will come a the cost of not being able to build Studio B right away, and I'm okay with that -- if we can make Studio A work really nicely coming out of the gate. a) I've had some contractors come to the property to give me estimates on bringing the roof up in the family room. The roof is currently flat and has no trusses or crawl space above it. Additionally, all of the walls are brick. b) If I go this route it will eat up $8,000 right away in order to afford me a 12-13' cathedral ceiling. c) If I go this route, I'll also need to set aside about $2000 for a mini-split A/C system. d) This leaves me $7000 to finish Control Room A, Live Room A, and ISO 1. (Building it myself with a skilled crew.) Studio B (If we go there…) West of ISO1 a sealed and decoupled double doorway leads into ISO2, which will primarily be used for loud instruments -- guitar/bass amps, and the occasional vocalist, and additional storage. It will also serve as a second air-lock (and interconnect) between Studio A and Studio B live rooms. Connected to ISO2 is Studio B's smaller live room. This room is much smaller in dimension compared to Live Room A -- but has a much taller ceiling. I'd like to make it a good place to track acoustic instruments, vocals, voice-overs, foley, etc as transparent and honestly as possible. Live Room B is currently constructed of 3 brick exterior walls separating the room from a living quarter of the house, ISO2, and Studio B Control Room. The South face of the building is standard wood and insulation and also faces the street. I'll need to be diligent in isolating Studio B from this noise! Once again -- patching A/C holes -- Rockwool, Room inside of room with Whisperclips & two layers of drywall. Will two layers of drywall and whisper clips be necessary on the brick walls? I would love to get around this. There is nothing but back yard and plenty of quiet space on the other side of the brick walls. However, I'm assuming it's an all or non scenario? Nothing's Perfect in "B" Either! Problem 1: Once you go West of the ISO1 wall (brick) you are in unfinished rooms -- and weird ceiling territory. These rooms are outlined in a brick exterior shell, however some of the bricks have some of the old school patterns cut out of them -- so I will need to either replace the bricks, or fill and cover the holes in them with dense non-resonant material. I was thinking maybe spray insulation foam? Problem 2: This house I believe at one point had a garage and was (almost) converted into more house. Considerations that were not taken into place were ventilation and possibly shady electric runs that will need replacing. Furthermore, there are single pane windows in the rooms that had walls erected which will be replaced -- but the window air conditionings that were installed are in the walls. *ugh* So I'll be patching up 2-3 nice big holes just as sealed and solid as possible. Any construction how-to's on that would be swell! When patching exterior walls like that, is decoupling the patch from the exterior wall with poly or neoprene and sealing with acoustic sealant necessary or recommended to help mitigate vibrations? (REMINDER: The side where I'll be patching is the side of the house that faces the semi-busy street. After the holes are patched, I can deal with ventilation. Since the roof AC will most likely need to be replaced and relocated, this would be a good time to upgrade that thing to take on some extra square footage -- and add this section of the building another leg onto the cooling system. Doing this carries its own set of questions & sub-problems. Here we go.. Sub Problem 1: I'm no building expert. In fact, I don't build at all. Is this a good time to look into zoning the A/C? There's a good chance that some weeks out of the year (specifically the summer) when half of the studio will not be in use. How hard is it to do, and what kind of additional expense goes into zoning AC? I also understand that it'll cost me a little bit extra in materials for these ducting runs, as we're going to have to maze them around a bit where as to add turns, and length in between rooms, and the main feed from the blower. Sub Problem 2: The previous owners added on! Control Room B is almost promising to have some surprises in store for me. This room was added onto the old garage which no longer exists, and was never finished into a habitable environment. This room however, was finished -- but with what materials? I don't know. We have to demo the room to find out all of the surprises! I know that two walls are not brick, while the other two are. I may be adding two more brick walls before all is said and done. Sub Problem 3: The roof is flat and without a crawlspace. (almost as if it used to be a carport.) Since this was added on, The roof is flat, and has no crawl space in order to add ducting, or achieve decent isolation from airborne noises of the outside world. Sub Problem 4: What is the best way to patch the holes that the wall A/C units will leave behind? Possible Solutions: 1. I'm considering having someone quote me on having that section of the roof (including over ISO2 and Live Room B) replaced, and have a 10'x14'x9' brick wall section added to the building since I'd only need to add 2.5 walls in order to complete the exterior wall construction. Inside of this I would put up decoupled walls, and ceiling as well as install proper ventilation systems and an easier route to tie cables between studios as needed in order to complete this section of the build "to spec." 2. Live Room B has 9' ceilings and may be a batter place for me to record drums, and I could avoid raising the roof in Live Room B but I'll not have nearly as large or a drum room, I'll loose line of site, and cable runs will become pretty difficult and pricey. I/O Cabling: I'm decent with a soldering iron and tugging cables through walls.. but I've never had to deal with wiring an entire studio or ordering materials. Below is my proposed list of I/O in the rooms. Please let me know if you have any suggestions or see anything that I've missed. 1. Each room will have a hearback system & associated modules - so Ethernet is a must. 2. Studio A - Live Room will have 32 inputs throughout. 16 inputs at the drum end, along with 8 on the Southeast and 8 on the Northeast end. I'll include 2 HP + speaker cable sends at each input panel as well for overflow and the ability to run have amps in the control room, and cabinets in the live room. 3. Studio B - Live Room will have 16-24 inputs and 8 channels in ISO 2 along with 2 HP sends in each panel. 4. ISO Booths - Both booths will all have 8 Inputs, 2 HP & Speaker cable sends along with Ethernet for hear back & remote video link for voice-overs and lyrics. Other cabling accommodations will include additional ethernet ports, USB, midi, and DVI for voice-over sessions and lyrics. 5. Near all wall panels will be accessible power, keeping in mind cross talk and shielding concerns between power and audio cables. There will be two or three dedicated circuits. One for each studio, and a third leg to help supplement the live and iso rooms. (There's room in the panel) 6. All I/O panels will be housed in constructed wooden boxes with a wooden "fin" with a hole and cable routed through it on the inside lined with rock wool/fiberglass and mounted to the wall. The snake will be sealed to the wall via commercial firewall blocking putty pads on both sides of each hole to help maintain isolation. I'll also seal the hole that the cables pass through in the "fin". Additionally, all I/O panel cabling will be run through 2" PVC conduit in the walls in order to make for easier future maintenance and expansion. 7. Electrical in ceilings will be sparse and strategically placed for track lighting. Conduits will be sealed from the crawl space with commercial firewall puttypads to help prevent from air transmission noise. 8. I have a few old snakes that I've used at previous non-permanent studios that I was thinking about slicing up to help aid with cable costs tying the rooms together with I/O's. Is this a good idea? * Was going to be using cabling from Redco Electrical: 1. Going to have a dedicated circuit run to Studio A and Studio B which will use a dedicated common ground for their circuits. - High voltage runs high, low voltage runs low - Intersecting paths need to run at a 90 degree - Can not run parallel to audio cables - Commercial firewall putty pads behind all wall sockets Room Treatments: Bass Traps, Diffusion & Absorption 1. Bass traps - 4" OC703 wedges will be cut and stacked in the corners of all rooms as needed per room modes. 2. Additional midrange absorption & diffusion will be added by way of 2" OC 703 panels hung on the wall, and covering plywood pieces with holes cut out for tuned and controlled diffusion. I'll probably build as many as the room needs, taking room mode measurements as I go. 3. Control room clouds - Will be building OC703 clouds slightly in front, and above the listening position in the control rooms, along with absorption on the walls at critical reflection points. I'm not sure if I will absorb or diffuse the back walls yet. Being that they are such small rooms, I'm leaning towards absorption, and possibly a few smaller QDR diffusers. 4. I'll add QDR's and more treatment when I can. * I'll put more efforts into and expand on this area as I near completion of the construction phase. Caveats: 1. I family members who are semi-experienced builders coming to stay with me to work full time on the space for at least a month in January to help me with this build. 2. The only construction we can not handle ourselves will be the roof above a 35x15 section of the house and the brick walls, so we'll lose a large chunk of budget to this build if I move forward with it. Budget - $18,000 or less Recap: 1. Am I using the space to the best of its potential? 2. Will 7-8' (slanted) ceiling height plus losing 4" to fiberglass treatment be too low to record drums with a very acceptable outcome? (high quality demo, commercial, and album work.) 3. Are there any critical areas of my plan that I have completely blown by that you see? 4. Am I over or under doing any of my isolation methods? - Do I need to do room inside room design w/ whisperclips & double drywall over the brick wall sections? - If not, do I leave the brick wall bare, or do I still continue to stud and drywall, or just resilient channel and drywall? 5. Is there room for me to save any costs in the methods I've mentioned above? 6. With 30-40+ hours a week and 2-3 guys on the job and more help on the weekends -- would 8-10 weeks be an unrealistic build time frame from demo to completion of build, not including room treatment or furnishings? 7. If you have any time or money saving techniques or resources… please feel free. I've been scouring the forums here and also have a copy of "Home Recording Studio: Build It Like The Pros" by Rod Gervais coming in, as I hear that's a great resource for what I'm doing. 8. Am I crazy for thinking I can build this for under $18k? :) Lastly, thanks to anyone who made it to the bottom of this post, and I appreciate your time, thoughts, and contributions to my build. I'm by no means a builder or mathematician. However, I have some amazing people in my life who are willing to help me execute a well devised plan. So, thank you to anyone who contributes to this cause!

Just as a heads up, I close on this house next week and I will have the opportunity to get into the house and make some measurements so that I can create an accurate sketchup to post here.

After further reading, it looks like if I decided to go with the room-inside-room design with no flanking paths -- that I will not need to employ whisperclips or resilient channel in these rooms. If this is true, I should be able to do 2 layers of 5/8ths drywall with Green Glue. Can anyone confirm? On walls that are brick, should I do the room-inside-room design or whisperclips, 2 layers of 5/8ths and green glue on those walls? It's my understanding that this design is not as effective, because it does not truly disconnect the flanking path. What would it bump the STC rating of my room down to? My thought behind this, is if the STC loss is minimal, I could save a little bit of real estate in my live room.

Just a couple of quick answers to those specifics, and I'll get back to you on your large post later (busy day!).

it looks like if I decided to go with the room-inside-room design with no flanking paths -- that I will not need to employ whisperclips or resilient channel in these rooms.

Correct. If the inner-leaf is already decoupled with a separate stud frame that rests only on the floor, not touching anything else, then decoupling again with clips or RC gains you nothing.

If this is true, I should be able to do 2 layers of 5/8ths drywall with Green Glue. Can anyone confirm?

Correct, depending on your isolation requirements.

On walls that are brick, should I do the room-inside-room design or whisperclips, 2 layers of 5/8ths and green glue on those walls?

Keep it all the same: do fully decoupled stud frames on ALL ides of the room, including the ceiling.

It's my understanding that this design is not as effective, because it does not truly disconnect the flanking path.

Right.

What would it bump the STC rating of my room down to?

STC is not a good way of measuring isolation of studios. STC does not take low frequencies into account (such as drums, bass, keyboards, etc.). STC was designed to measure isolation of voice frequencies, not music, so it should not be used as an indicator of true isolation across the entire spectrum.

My thought behind this, is if the STC loss is minimal, I could save a little bit of real estate in my live room.

The difference between a "coupled" wall and a "non-coupled" wall is night and day. Even a single nail that connects the two leaves is a drastic reduction. Have you ever held an old-fashioned tuning fork up in the air while it is vibrating, then set down the bottom end on a table? That's the difference between "not flanking" and "flanking". So if you just build a frame attached to the brick, then hang drywall on that, you have a coupled wall. Even worse, you have a coupled wall with a very thin air gap, so the MSM resonant frequency is tuned rather high, and your isolation in low frequencies will be abysmal. I'll try to get back to you on the other points later, but it's a busy time of year! :) - Stuart -

OK, I have a few free minutes to comment on the longer post.

The home I'm moving into I would like to commit 4-5 rooms to the audio side of things, which in my initial plans would include 2 control rooms, 1 live room, and 3 isolation booths.

Nice! Excuse me while I turn green with envy! :) However, since this is a commercial studio, you should probably look into the building regulations about that, as you'll probably find that you need to do things you were not originally counting on, such as providing wheel-chair access to all rooms, including the bathroom (maybe implies ramps, wide passages, doors, rails, etc), fire escapes, insurance, liability, and things like that. As soon as you do things commercially, you change the rules a bit, so it would be worth your while to check into those aspects.

sits on a solid cement foundation. All but one exterior wall is made of brick,

Excellent. You say the foundations are solid concrete, but are the floors also solid concrete, or are they wood?

with a slanted shingled roof throughout most of the home,

What kind of shingles? Asphalt shingles over a plywood deck?

Maybe STC55 or greater?

See my comment above on STC. Two rooms can both be rated at STC-55 and still have very different levels of true isolation. STC rating is a single number system that only takes into account part of the audio spectrum, entirely excluding the bottom two and a half octaves, so it tells you nothing at all about how well a room isolates for things like drums, bass guitar, keyboards, and other instruments with a lot of low-frequency content. STC is calculated by considering just a hand full of data points, then "massaging" those mathematically, fudging here and there until those data points sort of fit a standard curve. Take with a large grain of salt. So don't base your isolation decision on STC. Rather, think about "transmission loss" across the entire spectrum that you are interested in.

As you can see in the attached sketch up,

Sorry, but I didn't see any "attached sketchup"... ?

Each leaf I plan on being double layers of drywall 2x 1/2"

If you want high levels of isolation, then 1/2" drywall is not recommended. Too thin, too flexible, not enough mass, not good resonant characteristics. Much better to go with 5/8" fire-rated drywall only.

resting on neoprene pads -

There is no acoustic value to resting your walls on rubber, since they must be firmly anchored through the rubber and into the concrete slab: As soon as you put the anchor bolt in, you lose the decoupling provided by the rubber. Rubber is useful to improve the seal between the wall and floor, in cases where the concrete is uneven, not level, pitted, or is in poor condition.

In addition, there will be one window, and no door going into the live room due to my fear of loss of isolation.

Ummmmm..... So how are you going to get in, if there is no door? Did you managed to get a teleport device from Star Treck ??? :D :shot:

Ideally there will be two decoupled dual paned sliding glass doors here to allow for line of sight between musicians and for easy equipment load-ins.

Sliding glass doors look cool and provide lots of visibility, but acoustic rated sliding glass doors are VERY expensive. Also, they do not provide any more width than an ordinary for load-in / load-out of equipment: you can only open one side of the door at a time, and the opening is about the same as that for a normal hinged door. So it might be better (and cheaper) to just consider ordinary doors with glass panels in them, or even solid doors with windows next to them. Just sayin.... :)

The ceilings are LOW, ... goes from about 8' and slants down to around 7', maybe even 6'7". I know that this will be tall enough for overheads.

Nope. I can guarantee that you will never get good drum sounds with a 6 foot ceiling. The mics will just be a few inches from the ceiling, and will be picking up all kinds of artifacts, such as out-of-phase reflections, comb filtering, and things like that. I say "six foot ceiling", because you still have to consider the ISOLATION of that room, and the treatment. Isolation a room for drums takes up a lot of space, so your 6'7" end is going to end up pretty close to 6'. I would not consider using that room for drums in a commercial facility. Maybe as an iso booth, or just storage.

1 . I need to suspend 2" OC703 over the drum area leaving 1-2" air gap between fiberglass and ceiling in order to help effectively "neutralize" the ceilings existence.

Sorry, but that's nowhere near enough. If you want to make the ceiling disappear, acoustically, then you'd need at least 6" of insulation, and a similar size air gap if possible. 2" is not going to do much at all. Look at the specs for 703. 2" of 703 gives you a coefficient of absorption of .17 at 125 Hz, and .86 at 250 Hz. In other words, somewhere between 17% and 86% absorption at the frequencies where your snare and toms live. You might think that 86% absorption is fantastic, but it isn't. That's a reduction of around 4 dB. If you get lucky and have 4 dB reduction in each direction (once as the sound goes up through the 703, then again as it comes back down after bouncing off the hard ceiling), then your 118 dB snare whack will come back at the other side of the mic a whoppingly small 8 dB lower, at 110 dB.... Virtually no change at all. I think you see what the issue is... Even 6" of 703 over a 6" air gap is not going to make a huge difference: The ceiling is just too low and too close.

2. Probably need to utilize a tighter overhead micing technique, and/or side-address mics as overheads along with well placed room mic -- in order to get "the sound".

With a room that small, and a sufficiently dead ceiling, the room mic is probably not going to pick up anything that you'd want to put in your mix... In order to sound good, drums need space and height. I'd suspect that your only real option with such a low ceiling is to close mic everything from below, and add room sound electronically, ITB.

3. Raise the roof. This is actually the option I'm leaning towards so far.

If that were my situation, I would sigh deeply, talk very nicely to my bank manager, bite the bullet, and do exactly that: Rip the old roof off, raise it several feet, then put a new one in.

c) If I go this route, I'll also need to set aside about $2000 for a mini-split A/C system.

You'll need that anyway, regardless of what you do with the roof. In order to isolate a room it must be air-tight, so you will need HVAC. You will need the mini-split to provide the cooling and humidity control, and you will also need to duct in fresh air and exhaust the stale air, using silencer boxes in both cases. That goes without saying, regardless of how high the ceiling is, so the cost of the HVAC is not a factor in deciding on whether to raise the roof or not. In fact, HVAC might be easier and cheaper if you DO raise the roof, since you could incorporate the HVAC ducting into the design, rather than adding it on later.

foley,

Foley? Then you need major, big-time isolation for that room, and an entire new class of HVAC. Foley implies recording very quiet, soft sounds and amplifying them greatly. So your nose floor must be extremely low. Foley usually means NR-15 or lower, so your isolation needs to be very high, and your HVAC needs to be very silent. The acoustics probably also need to be variable, to accommodate different needs. That room is going to be the single most expensive room of your entire facility.

Electrical: 1. Going to have a dedicated circuit run to Studio A and Studio B which will use a dedicated common ground for their circuits.

The entire facility needs to be wired with star-grounding. You will probably find that it is illegal to have two separate isolated grounds in the same building, so you will need to have one single common ground for the entire building, that is both very low impedance to the actual earth, and is also bridged to neutral if your code allows that. You will probably need a proper grounding grid, dug into the garden with grounding rods driven deep. The grounding for the studio equipment must be done as star-grounding, but that isn't necessary for the service areas of the building (offices, bathrooms, kitchen, etc.).

1. Bass traps - 4" OC703 wedges will be cut and stacked in the corners of all rooms as needed per room modes.

Good. Superchunks are very effective bass traps.

2. Additional midrange absorption & diffusion will be added by way of 2" OC 703 panels hung on the wall, and covering plywood pieces with holes cut out for tuned and controlled diffusion.

I'm not sure I understand what you are planning there. Are you talking about perf panel? Tuned Helmholtz devices? Something else? You also seem to be confusing diffusion with absorption. Perf panel is not a diffuser: it is an absorber.

I'm not sure if I will absorb or diffuse the back walls yet.

If you go with an RFZ design, the absorption makes a lot more sense then diffusion. Also, the size of the room will determine that: Diffusion can only be used in rooms that are large enough to allow it. In other words, rooms that provide enough space between the diffuser and the engineer's ears to allow the artifacts to smooth out. That just isn't possible in small rooms.

4. I'll add QDR's and more treatment when I can.

I think you mean "QRD's" not "QDR's"! :) But once again, those can only be used in rooms with large enough dimensions. Depending on who you listen to, you need at least ten feet between diffuser and ears, or at least 3 times the lowest wavelength, or at least seven times the lowest wavelength. And since QRD's can still affect one octave below the lowest tuning, the wavelengths can be quite long...

1. Am I using the space to the best of its potential?

If you post your detailed layout in SketchUp, that would be a lot easier to understand than the verbal explanation! :)

2. Will 7-8' (slanted) ceiling height plus losing 4" to fiberglass treatment be too low to record drums with a very acceptable outcome? (high quality demo, commercial, and album work.

)Yes. (IMHO)

8. Am I crazy for thinking I can build this for under $18k?

:!: :shock: :D There's a really solid method for accurately calculating the exact cost of studio construction: Take the number you first thought of, multiply it by a random number between 3 and 30, add in yesterday's date using at least six digits, divide by a randomly chosen but very small decimal fraction, then add at least one zero on the end. Guaranteed to be accurate! Works every time! Seriously, the best way of estimating your cost is to call up a local contractor and ask for his flat rate per square foot for finishing an unfinished basement or garage as an up-scale apartment: Take that rate and multiply it by the number of square feet you have, and you won't be far wrong. (That does not include HVAC or replacing the roof, of course.) That said, for doing everything you mentioned, I'd say that 18k is on the low side. - Stuart -

Stuart, Sorry for my remiss in a speed reply! Holidays, closing delays on the house and and hospitals plagued this build before it started... but it has officially started! Based off of budget, and isolation concerns of my plans have changed, and I think that I've gained more insight and a better plan of what I'd like to try and accomplish with this space. I also have a few more questions (surprise!) :) First, the property floorplan posted in a previous message is still valid. I'm including a hand drawn concept that I'd like to build off of -- if you guys approve :D One other thing to keep in mind, is that this is officially a private studio -- but I will have guests regularly. I unfortunately will not be making any additional provisions for handicapped access, or constraining myself to "commercial regulation" in a residential neighborhood. I'll do my best to include the details necessary to help me make the right calls, if you would be so kind to do so! Control Room: 1. Typical wood framing, and sits between the home's kitchen, master bath, and hallway that goes to bedrooms/offices. 2. Currently rafters are at 8' but could probably gain another 2 feet towards the back half of the room if recommended. 3. Will employ room inside room design with 2-3 layers of 5/8ths and green glue. 2x6, 24" OC for the walls. Will the ceiling still need to be 2x4 16 on center for a 14x15"? 4. This room is hooked to the central AC, but will also have a 12k BTU mini split for cooling. 5. 2x 20A dedicated circuits for gear. 6. 1" steel conduit for cable runs to all rooms. Runs will drop down walls and through drywall, and will terminate to treated soffit boxes that will house the faceplates, and maintain room isolation. (more photos coming) 7. The sidewalls in the design are at 10 degrees. Math and geometry have always been my weakest subject growing up, so if I could get some help with room dimensions to pass off to my builder, that would be AMAZING. :) 8. My biggest concern. My outer leaf, the roof. So when the control room is fully decoupled and has 3 sheets of 5/8ths on it w/ green glue -- what types of sealing considerations do I need to make for the actual roof from the attic? I have a few large vents that I'm afriad of airborn transmission getting through and pissing off the neighbors. The roof gets really tight in some areas and would be hard to treat entirely. However, I see no gaps or holes around the edges of the eves of the house. This makes me wonder if I need to consider a 3 leaf system for my control room and deal with the resonance issue? Live Room: 1. Live room constructed of cinderblock with some kind of loose/grit insulation fill, and was an addition to the original house. 2. Flat slanted roof with 2x6 raftors. 3. Will be cooled by 2x 12,000BTU mini splits 4. Creating intake & exhaust soffit boxes. Intake will be in a void between ISO1 and the Live room, the exhaust will be mounted in a soffit box that will span from wall to wall along the wall adjoining the control room to the live room. I plan to exhaust into the attic space of the main house. 5. 2x 20 amp circuits being run to CR & live room (Star ground with 2x6' bonding rods at panel.) 6. Tapcon & gluing 2x2 onto cinder walls with R21 in the cavity, genie clips, 2 layers of 5/8th with green glue in between. 7. Windows are frames constructed as per Rod's instructions in his second book, and will have 3/4" lam on the interior walls, and 1/2" on exterior. Additionally, I was curious if there are any disadvantages to framing in the windows now, yet filling with insulation and covering with drywall, so that I can spend more of my initial funds on ventilation and cooling, and save some cash for the big panes of glass to be installed later? More to come on this. I have to get back to work before I fall too far behind! Thanks for your patience Stuart. I read a ton of your posts here and on gs and find them very helpful. Please let me know what additional information you need from me in order to answer my half-assed questions. Sorry if my descriptions are not very clear. I'll try to illustrate where possible.

Front of control room at the eve, where live room adjoins. Back of control room, looking up at raftors where I can gain a couple feet of clearance. Control room panoramic (bare) I'll get shots of the amp and drum rooms next.

I'll be sure to post smaller photos from here on out...

The vents in the roof over the control room (outer leaf) has vents in it. Can I build a quiet soffit box out of mdf and insert an automatic exhaust fan in the roof vents, or do I need to add layers of MDF (or two) over the joists in the control room?

I'll be sure to post smaller photos from here on out...

:!: :shock: Yup! And please re-size those ones you already posted, too! My mouse is wearing out from scrolling sideways all the time, and my eyes are watering! - Stuart -

:!: :shock: Yup! And please re-size those ones you already posted, too! My mouse is wearing out from scrolling sideways all the time, and my eyes are watering!

You got it! Sorry about that! ---- Isolation requirements - I'm looking to be able to work in the control room mixing in the evening time without disrupting my neighbors. I don't mix extraordinarily loud, and rarely have the sub on. As far as the live room, it will handle multiple scenarios, with minimal drums. We might have a live demo session now and then. For bigger projects, the drums will be cut in the drum booth, which will have more ceiling height, and better isolation utilizing a fully decoupled room inside a room design. I understand that It may not be possible to track drums at 2AM in my space, but I'd like to be able to go out to 9 or 10PM at times without causing too much trouble in the neighborhood if possible. I'll post more of the floorplan and build plans / materials / questions this afternoon! Thanks for keeping an eye on this thread, Stuart. It should be moving pretty quickily now. I only have my builder in from out of town for a limited amount of time, and we hope to get a good start while he's here. I have a crew of 2-3 others coming in, in a week or two after the electrical is roughed in. ----- Roofing (2nd leaf) considerations. Would sealing up my attic vents, and putting 2 automated power roof ventalators in, along with some quiet/soffit boxes to muffle airborn noise be a good option for me to seal up the roof to act as a second leaf? Are there additional considerations I need to take in order to beef up the mass? My ceiling is sloped at a low grade, and some areas are extremely difficult or impossible to get to. This is why I was wondering if I need to consider a 3 leaf design. The only other room in the studio that will share the same top-outer leaf is the drum room. I'm feeling like 3 layers of drywall in the control room and drum room is quickly becoming my best option.

Any suggestions on how to deal with my outer mass leaf? If I go with a 3 leaf in order to get more isolation, can I get away with an additional layer of drywall on the existing ceiling joists and build within that, leaving the per-existing outer leafs on? The rest of the outer mass on walls look decent and workable. If I do as I stated above, should I genie clip the middle leaf so that I can minimize the room resonance that I'll be inducing with a 3 leaf system?

bump.... anyone want to take a stab at this? :)

Well, we start framing this week. I'm going to go ahead and tell the contractor to prepare for 12x6 24" on center for the walls, and 16" OC for the ceiling, with 3 layers of 5/8ths on the ceiling and walls. I'd be willing to hire someone to help consult me with design and construction plans. I feel like I have a good idea of what we need to do, but could just use some confirmation, and help weighing out some options. My control room and drum room are the two rooms I'm not sure how to deal with the top outer leaf. In addition, I think the front of my control room needs help with regards to geometry (not soffet mounting monitors.) Begging for advice, Nick

Hi again, Nick. Sorry about the delay in response here! There's been a lot of activity on the forum lately, and only a couple of us moderators around to handle it. I've had your thread "in the pipeline" to respond to for a couple of days, but only just got around to it now. And also, there's still the issue of those oversized photos on the first page of your thread, that you said you were going to re-size! :) Anyway:

I'm looking to be able to work in the control room mixing in the evening time without disrupting my neighbors. I don't mix extraordinarily loud, and rarely have the sub on.

OK, so it is ONLY mixing that we are trying to isolate here, not tracking? "Standard" mix level is considered to be 85 dB, or rather that's the level you will design and calibrate your room for, so let's assume that's what you will be doing. That gives us the "how loud" answer. Now for "how quiet"... You didn't mention your goal there, but assuming you want to be able to mix all night without disturbing the family or your neighbors, you'll need to get that down to about 35 dB at the receiver (we here "receiver" means the person being disturbed). So you need about 50 dB of isolation to do that: With no subwoofer on, that is reasonably easy to do (depending on your mains speakers, of course): An average house wall should give you something approaching 30 dB of isolation, so you only need to go 100 times better than that to get 50 dB. That can be accomplished with typical studio construction: Fully decoupled two-leaf MSM walls, and the same for the ceiling, with a pair of back-to-back doors, HVAC silencers, etc.

For bigger projects, the drums will be cut in the drum booth, which will have more ceiling height, and better isolation utilizing a fully decoupled room inside a room design.

You'll need the room-in-a-room anyway, for the CR too, if you want to mix at 85 dB at 3:00 AM. Drums is a different issue: We are talking about levels around 110-115 dB easily, with much of that in the low frequencies. Getting that down to 35 dB is a taaaaalllll order. That's over 70 dB of isolation. While it is possible, that requires more than 100 times the isolation of the CR, which means about 10,000 times the isolation of an average house wall... dB is a logarithmic scale, so going up ten points means blocking ten times the energy. So it gets harder and harder to add each additional point.

I understand that It may not be possible to track drums at 2AM in my space, but I'd like to be able to go out to 9 or 10PM at times without causing too much trouble in the neighborhood if possible.

That is probably also do-able, and is a reasonable goal. Check your municipal noise regulations to see what your legal obligation is here: they will specify what level is allowable at what time of day. as well as where and how it should be measured. Assuming typical regulations, shooting for 50-soemthin dB of isolation in your walls will probably be enough to meet that.

Would sealing up my attic vents, and putting 2 automated power roof ventalators in, along with some quiet/soffit boxes to muffle airborn noise be a good option for me to seal up the roof to act as a second leaf?

You probably cannot do that, legally or sensibly. You MIGHT be able to, but the roof venting is there for a purpose. Maybe Brien can comment on that: Theoretically it should be possible, but once again check your building code / municipal inspector to find out what can and cannot be done. They aren't your enemy! They are often very helpful, and might suggest usable alternatives that meet code.

Are there additional considerations I need to take in order to beef up the mass?

Yup! Safety! You need to make sure that the structure can support the load. This means bringing in a structural engineer to look at what you have, look at your plans, and give you the OK.

This is why I was wondering if I need to consider a 3 leaf design.

Quiet possible. Sometimes there is no alternative. In that case, you can compensate with more mass on the middle leaf and larger air gaps.

The only other room in the studio that will share the same top-outer leaf is the drum room. I'm feeling like 3 layers of drywall in the control room and drum room is quickly becoming my best option.

Once again, that sounds very possible, and Green Glue might be your friend too! But in order to determine that, you need to do the MSM calculations and predictions of isolation, to make sure the plan will meet your goals.

If I do as I stated above, should I genie clip the middle leaf so that I can minimize the room resonance that I'll be inducing with a 3 leaf system?

That's a good possibility, yes, depending on what the overall plan is for the isolation.

Well, we started framing this week. I'm going to go ahead and tell the contractor to prepare for 12x6 24" on center for the walls, and 16" OC for the ceiling, with 3 layers of 5/8ths on the ceiling and walls.

Sounds like a plan, but please do post pictures of what you are doing with that framing! There are about a million ways to do it wrong, and just a handful of doing it right. If your builder has never done studio builds before, then the chances are that he might be doing one of the million, not one of the few... :) PM me if you need more urgent help. - Stuart -

Hey Stuart! Thanks for keeping an eye on me from over there...

OK, so it is ONLY mixing that we are trying to isolate here, not tracking? "Standard" mix level is considered to be 85 dB, or rather that's the level you will design and calibrate your room for, so let's assume that's what you will be doing. That gives us the "how loud" answer. Now for "how quiet"... You didn't mention your goal there, but assuming you want to be able to mix all night without disturbing the family or your neighbors, you'll need to get that down to about 35 dB at the receiver (we here "receiver" means the person being disturbed). So you need about 50 dB of isolation to do that: With no subwoofer on, that is reasonably easy to do (depending on your mains speakers, of course): An average house wall should give you something approaching 30 dB of isolation, so you only need to go 100 times better than that to get 50 dB. That can be accomplished with typical studio construction: Fully decoupled two-leaf MSM walls, and the same for the ceiling, with a pair of back-to-back doors, HVAC silencers, etc.

Sweet!

That is probably also do-able, and is a reasonable goal. Check your municipal noise regulations to see what your legal obligation is here: they will specify what level is allowable at what time of day. as well as where and how it should be measured. Assuming typical regulations, shooting for 50-soemthin dB of isolation in your walls will probably be enough to meet that.

I believe the limit is not to exceed 55dB past 11PM. I'll look into it.

You probably cannot do that, legally or sensibly. You MIGHT be able to, but the roof venting is there for a purpose. Maybe Brien can comment on that: Theoretically it should be possible, but once again check your building code / municipal inspector to find out what can and cannot be done. They aren't your enemy! They are often very helpful, and might suggest usable alternatives that meet code.

So since roof vents are standard in homes, Does the roof still count as a leaf in this instance? Would a 3rd layer of drywall on the ceiling (with green glue) compensate for the vents in the outer leaf (roof)? I wouldn't need to go 3 layers all the way around would I? The surrounding outer leaf walls will have 2 layers of 5/8ths w/ GG.

Quiet possible. Sometimes there is no alternative. In that case, you can compensate with more mass on the middle leaf and larger air gaps.

At what point do I figure out if I get more gain out of 3 layers on the inner leaf, or if I need to employ a 2 leaf inner, 1 leaf outer ceiling? Two layers on the outer leaf will be tough, and I'm trying really hard to avoid it. Of course, I'll have a 3-4" air gap between the walls, and I plan to put some insulation between the joists of the inner and outer leafs all around.

hat's a good possibility, yes, depending on what the overall plan is for the isolation.

Would this be a decent option if I were only doing a single layer of 5/8ths on the middle leaf, and 2 on the inner?

Sounds like a plan, but please do post pictures of what you are doing with that framing! There are about a million ways to do it wrong, and just a handful of doing it right. If your builder has never done studio builds before, then the chances are that he might be doing one of the million, not one of the few... :) PM me if you need more urgent help.

I'll get more photos taken and posted tomorrow! I resized the original photos that I posted, and are seen in the second post on this page. I'll be sure to get more details, and the other rooms as well. Thanks again Stuart! Nick

I believe the limit is not to exceed 55dB past 11PM. I'll look into it.

That sounds rather high. Most residential areas are more like 45 dBA, or even less. 55 would be more for an industrial area. 55 dB is pretty loud: in the region of quiet conversation levels.

Does the roof still count as a leaf in this instance?

Yup! If it is a large flat massive surface, separated from another similar surface by an air gap, then it counts. The air cavity does not need to be sealed for this to work.

Would a 3rd layer of drywall on the ceiling (with green glue) compensate for the vents in the outer leaf (roof)?

Maybe! :) This gets rather complex: when you go from a 2-leaf system to a 3-leaf system, you change ball-parks: it's a whole different set of equations that are used to calculate for 3 leaf systems. You are probably aware that all of these systems (2-leaf, 3-leaf, 4-leaf) are tuned systems that resonate at a certain frequency, and that frequency has to be tuned down below the lowest frequency that you need to isolate. For a 2-leaf system, there is a single fundamental resonant frequency (plus harmonics). For a 3-leaf, there are two fundamental resonant frequencies (plus their harmonics), so things get a bit more complicated. That's why I need to know your target isolation, in decibels of transmission loss, so I can calculate what will work, what wont, and how much mass / air gap you need to compensate. At a rough guess, yes, adding a third layer to the MIDDLE leaf will probably do the trick, provided that the air gaps are also big enough. It's a juggling match, trying to keep all the numbers in play at once, and come up with a useful result!

I wouldn't need to go 3 layers all the way around would I?

Just on the ceiling, where the 3-leaf system is. As long as the walls remain 2-leaf, then they can stay as planned.

At what point do I figure out if I get more gain out of 3 layers on the inner leaf, or if I need to employ a 2 leaf inner, 1 leaf outer ceiling?

Ahh! Well, that's the 64 million dollar question, isn't it! I could tell ya, but then I'd havta shoot ya! :) Actually, it isn't a secret: the equations are available on the internet if you care to go looking for them, and play around with them. The answer is that there is no simple answer. The point where a 3-leaf is compensated to the same isolation as a 2-leaf depends on several factors that you sort of have to play around with until you get a good match. The simplest form of the 3-leaf equation assumes that both air gaps are the same size, and that the mass on the middle leaf is the same as the SUM of the mass on the other two leaves.

Of course, I'll have a 3-4" air gap between the walls,

You can't possibly have less than 4 inches of air gap! If you have a concrete wall, for example, and leave a 1/2" space before the stud framing, then the width of the studs themselves is 3-1/2", so you MUST have at least 4" or air gap. And if you have two stud frames next to each other with a 1/2" space between them, then you have a 7-1/2" air gap.

and I plan to put some insulation between the joists of the inner and outer leafs all around.

Yes, absolutely! You must put insulation in there: either fiberglass (30 kg/m3) or mineral wool (50 kg/m3). The insulation acts as the damper on the resonant system, and has to be there. Make it as thick as you can. More is better.

Would this be a decent option if I were only doing a single layer of 5/8ths on the middle leaf, and 2 on the inner?

It should be the other way around: more mass on the middle leaf, less on the other two leaves. So 2 layers on the middle, one on the inner. Or three on the middle, two on the inner.

I resized the original photos that I posted, and are seen in the second post on this page.

:yahoo: :!: Now I can see them without breaking my neck and my mouse!! :) EDIT TO ADD: Oops! spoke too soon: there are still some over-sized ones on the first page... Five of them, actually... :( - Stuart -

Live room

Thanks Stuart for the quick and direct responses! Really excited to hear about the roof acting as the outer leaf, and it not needing to be sealed. However we're all concerned that there will be substantial leakage because there is a vent in the roof almost directly above the control room. Is this still okay, or does this need to be soffet-boxed w/ dampening material? I've been knocking around what you said and here's where I'm at... Noise Ordinance There is no actual "noise level" other than what is considered "reasonable" past property lines. Here is what I found on the city's website. "The standard is based on reasonableness and applies to noise that is loud, excessive or disruptive, and includes, but is not limited to, electronic devices, vehicles, animals and people. If the noise is intermittent or continuous for a period of at least 15 minutes, OR if it is after 10:00 p.m. but before 6:00 a.m., AND exceeds the property line, AND disturbs the peace and order of the neighborhood or a person of ordinary sensibilities, it can be considered a violation of the ordinance. This ordinance does not apply to every day noise that allows for normal functions of city life to continue. Exemptions can be made on a temporary basis and granted on a case-by-case basis by the City. Disruptive Party Noise A "disruptive party, gathering or event" means a group of two or more persons who have assembled or are assembling on any private property, including property used to conduct business, in a manner which disturbs the peace and quiet of the neighborhood, or a reasonable person of normal sensibilities, and/or creates noise as described in the ordinance." I guess it will be good to mention that the exterior walls of the studio all face the back yard, and there is utility access / alley way behind the yard. So I have a good distance between myself and my neighbors. 2 Leaf vs 3 Leaf Ceiling If the roof is going to work as a sufficient outer leaf yielding acceptable levels of isolation and TL, I think I'll stick with my initial plan of two layers of drywall on the walls and 3 layers on in the ceiling in the control room, and three layers all around in the drum room. Insulation between walls Okay, so I was measuring the space between the inner most studs as my "airspace". I guess it slipped my mind that the air space was measured from outside stud to outside stud. There will be plenty of space between the studs in order to give me the room dimensions that I want. That being said, you mention needing dense insulation between studs? I was also under the impression that I could use standard R-value'd 4-6" insulation between studs, and to use rigid fiberglass for room treatments and bass trapping. Perhaps rockwool in between ceiling joists? Am I going down the wrong path? 3000lbs of lumber is being delivered tomorrow, and I'll have new photos up of the progress on the walls. We got stuck beefing up the living room and hall way walls (which are acting as a portion of the the outer leaf of the control room) last week. Thanks again for helping me through this Stuart. Hope you had a good week! Nick