Hi!
I am a recording engineer from Sweden. I will soon get access to a new space located next to where I am working now. My goal is to build a proffesional studio with a control room, iso booth and live room. I have been reading on this forum, on other forums and in books to gain as much knowledge as possible on the subject acoustics and studio design and construction to be able to do as much work as possible by my self, in order to save money from hiring proffesional designers and carpenters and put that money in to the construction instead. This new space is approx 44 squaremeters with a ceiling height of 2,70 meters. The space is on ground floor with no floors above, but the building is attached to a larger buildning which is a factory. I am located in an industrial area, so my nieghbours are caterpillars and trucks etc. The noise from the outside is greater than the noise coming from the factory. The walls of this new space is brickwall and the wall behind me(sitting in listening posistion on my rough layout plan attached) is windows, which I plan to cover with stud/insulation/gypsum board walls. The floor is concrete with linoleum carpet on. The ceiling is gypsum.
Regarding noise levels I can tell you that I have buildt an Iso Booth in my current studio in the same building on a kind of floating floor with walls of wooden studs, glass fiber insulation and double layers of gypsum walls, and with sound proof door and double laminated glass for window, and this construction keeps out all outside noise exept for when a tractor is running its dipper along the ground.
I am planning on buildning a control room, iso booth and a live room out of this new space with as high transmission loss as possible to get rid of outside noise, noise from the factory and no leakage from the live room into the control room. The only entrace to the space is the door located on the left wall in my drawing. I work with recording bands and artists in many different genres but mostly heavy rock music/metal/hardcore, loud stuff with live drums etc. And I also work with recording audio books, just a voice reading, so this is very sensitive to outside noise, and these recordings are made in the Iso Booth. My setup is based on a DAW with some analog outboard but no console, nearfield monitors and a sub woofer. I might get some jobs doing foley in 5.1 surround sound in the future so it might be a good Idea to have that in mind when making a construction plan. But right now I only mix in stereo, and that will be the main setup for most jobs so the focus is a good listening environment in stereo.
My old live room, which I will be using for guitar and bass cabinets mostly is located on the left side of the new space in my drawing and there is a brick wall separating the rooms. The new live room I would like to use for drum recording, and I also will get a grand piano soon that needs to be in there too.
I have attached a drawing with a layout plan for the studio, and here is some additional info to the drawing:
I plan on building a floating floor for the control room and iso booth but maybe not for the live room, but a drum riser to the live room, because of budget. I have calculated the cost of this construction to about 10.000 $ and that is my max budget. I don't think I will build a new ceiling since there is no one above me, but I plan on angeling the ceiling in the front end of the control room, but I would very much like to get some tips and info on how to go about this( How much angle, and what should it consist of etc) The only thing I do know is that it should be angled away from the listening position, as the walls.
The dimensions(which will decrease with the thickness of the wall construction) of the control room is: Length 6 m, width 4 m in the back end, and decreasing with the angeled walls, height 2,70 m raw ceiling height, which will decrease with the thickness of floating floor and angeled ceiling. I have put the listening position 38 % of the room length from the front wall.
The ventilation system is an opening in the ceiling about 50 x 10 centimeters( I have trouble explaining this in english, I am sorry) located roughly half way down the control room on the right side.
I am planning on buildning the walls with wood studs, glas fiber insulation and two layers of gypsum board on the inner side of the control room, and a separate structure for the Iso Booth, but not for the live room(because of cost), but instead put two layers of gypsum board on the wall facing the Live room. I am thinking this will be a two leaf construction through the whole place. The doors will be sound proof doors from a swedish manufacturer, and the windows will be two pieces of laminated glass with different thickness.
Regarding acoustic treatment I am thinking about putting lots of absorbers, diffusers and bass traps in the back end of the room, where there will be a large sofa as well. And put absorbers in the ceiling above the listening position and on the wall in front of the listening posistion.
I realise the layout plan is upside down to most other studio plans posted on this forum, with the listening position facing downwards. I am sorry for that. I have made the layout based on the knowledge I've got from reading about control room design and such, but I haven't found very much info about specific angels of control room walls, so this layout is just a wild guess more or less, so my main question to you guys is if this is something to work with or if not, what changes would you make in this design/construction? Are the angels and non-symmetry in the live room and Iso booth good or bad?
My questions are:
1.Is this control room design something to work with?
2.Are the angels in the iso booth and live room OK?
3.Will my construction provide enough TL?
4.I have nearfield monitors. Is it a good idea to flush mount them to get rid of reflections, or is it ok to have them ”in the room”?
5.Do you have any suggestions on construction and design of an angeled control room cieling?
I am sorry for the post being so long, but I have read the ”must read” before posting and it seemed to me you wanted as much info about the situation as possible.
Thank you in advance, and thank you for a great forum!
Regards/
Martin, Rovljud Studios
Studio build in sweden
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 17958.
Hi Martin, and welcome to the forum! :)
Excellent! That sounds like a nicely sized space, and it should be possible to build a good studio in there.This new space is approx 44 squaremeters with a ceiling height of 2,70 meters. The space is on ground floor with no floors above,
Ouch! That's not so good... You will probably need some serious isolation to deal with that. Are you feeling vibration in the floor from that? When a truck or other heavy vehicle goes past, can you feel the floor shake or vibrate? Do you have some way of finding out what frequency those noise issues are at, maybe with a spectrum analyzer?I am located in an industrial area, so my nieghbours are caterpillars and trucks etc.
Then you should change the shape of the control room. The shape you have right now is not much good for 5.1: it is too long and too narrow, and it would be very hard to do good acoustical treatment for 5.1 in that room.I might get some jobs doing foley in 5.1 surround sound in the future so it might be a good Idea to have that in mind when making a construction plan.
Fine, but if you might do 5.1 in the future then you should design the room for 5.1 now. Trying to do 5.1 in a room that was not designed for it is not a good idea. Ordinary stereo mixing (either 2.0 or 2.1) can sound fantastic and be done easily in a 5.1 room, but not the other way around. If 5.1 is in your future, you should build the room that way now, even if you don't install the other three or four speakers yet.right now I only mix in stereo, and that will be the main setup for most jobs so the focus is a good listening environment in stereo.
Does that wall exist right now, is will yo build that wall? If it is already there, is it load-bearing? Can it be removed?My old live room, which I will be using for guitar and bass cabinets mostly is located on the left side of the new space in my drawing and there is a brick wall separating the rooms.
To be honest, I would do it the other way around! If you think you need a floating floor to isolate your recordings from the sounds outside, then I would float the live room, which is where the mics will be! The control room is not so important, from that point of view. Since floating a floor is so expensive, it would make sense to spend all that money where it is needed most: keeping unwanted noise out of the mics.I plan on building a floating floor for the control room and iso booth but maybe not for the live room,
That is on the low side. That works out to just US$ 23 per square meter, which is very low for this type of build.I have calculated the cost of this construction to about 10.000 $ and that is my max budget.
But you said that you need good isolation! You cannot get that without proper decoupled isolation ceilings in each room. If you don't build your ceilings properly then it makes no sense at all to float the floor!I don't think I will build a new ceiling since there is no one above me,
that depends on what design concept you want to use for the room, and on the reason for angling the walls and ceiling. For example, if this is just about reducing flutter echo, then 12° is what you need on the ceiling, and 6° on each wall. But if you are going to do an RFZ design then the angles will probably be much greater. And if you are going to do a CID design or traditional rectangular room design, then you might not need to angle the walls or ceiling themselves, but rather angle the treatment that goes inside the room. You should first define your goals and basic design philosophy, then chose the dimensions, size, shape and angles based on that.I would very much like to get some tips and info on how to go about this( How much angle, and what should it consist of etc) The only thing I do know is that it should be angled away from the listening position, as the walls.
Once again, it sounds like you are not going to isolate the live room at all, which does not sound like a good idea if you want to record critical things with all that noise going on outside. Personally, I would give priority to isolating the live room and vocal booth, rather than the control room. The control needs more treatment, for sure, but the live room needs good isolation.I am planning on buildning the walls with wood studs, glas fiber insulation and two layers of gypsum board on the inner side of the control room, and a separate structure for the Iso Booth, but not for the live room(because of cost), but instead put two layers of gypsum board on the wall facing the Live room. I am thinking this will be a two leaf construction through the whole place.
Non symmetry in the live room is fine. Only the control room needs to be symmetrical: the live room can be any shape that gives it the character you are looking for.Are the angels and non-symmetry in the live room and Iso booth good or bad?
Probably not. You might want to read this about floating floors, too: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8173 http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/doc/p ... /ir802.pdf (also: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8134 viewtopic.php?t=8135)3.Will my construction provide enough TL?
Flush mounting is always much better, as it solves a lot of problems from free-standing speakers. There's more I could suggest about your room, but I'm out of time right now, and have to run! :) - Stuart -4.I have nearfield monitors. Is it a good idea to flush mount them to get rid of reflections, or is it ok to have them ”in the room”?
As usual what soundman says its spot on.
From my very humble point of view I believe you have two problems: low budget and high noises. Start by cutting down costs which will hurt isolation as outside windows (which I believe are on the piano wall)
Also, do you enter through live room 2? Tell me if I didn't understand well. In case it is you should avoid that and you will be better making a bigger iso booth and will save on extra walls.
I haven't re-drawn your space but have you consider rotating your mixing area so you enter from the back of the control room? It would cut the area in two (smaller) live rooms and the control in the middle, and could have panels to create an iso booth on one of them.
These is my very, very amateur opinion.
Stuart! Thanx alot for your reply!
I have read the links you posted about floors, and I have realized that floating the floors might not be neccesary for me.
I am actually not too worried about the outside noise, it hasn't been a problem for me so far in my current studio in the same building. The floor doesn't shake or vibrate, but the cielings are. I can hear a vibration in my flourescent lamps, but I will replace those with other lamps. But of course it will be a problem if there is alot of noise outside when tracking soft piano parts for example, so I realize I have to have this in mind. The only thing I am worried about is leakage from the live room into the control room when recording live drums. I have this problem right now and I have to use headphones to determine mic position etc. And I've also realized that I've been focusing too much on isolating the control room from the outside, which obviously is not that important. So I am thinking it might be a good idea to redesign the space so that the control room is located along most of the window wall, which will isolate the live room from outside noise.Ouch! That's not so good... You will probably need some serious isolation to deal with that. Are you feeling vibration in the floor from that? When a truck or other heavy vehicle goes past, can you feel the floor shake or vibrate? Do you have some way of finding out what frequency those noise issues are at, maybe with a spectrum analyzer?
You are of course right! I'll change it.Then you should change the shape of the control room. The shape you have right now is not much good for 5.1: it is too long and too narrow, and it would be very hard to do good acoustical treatment for 5.1 in that room.
The wall exist right now and it can not be removed.Does that wall exist right now, is will yo build that wall? If it is already there, is it load-bearing? Can it be removed?
I forgot to mention that the budget is primarily for the control room and Iso booth, which I need to get done first to be able to work, and then I can start working on the live room when new money comes in. And if I don't float the floors I think I will be saving a lot of money.That is on the low side. That works out to just US$ 23 per square meter, which is very low for this type of build.
Ok, I have realized that the cielings might be a weak spot for outside noise, so I think I will build a new decoupled ceiling for the Iso booth at first, and when I start working on the live room I will know if I need it for that too.But you said that you need good isolation! You cannot get that without proper decoupled isolation ceilings in each room. If you don't build your ceilings properly then it makes no sense at all to float the floor!
Ok! I am aiming for a RFZ, if its possible. What is CID design? In the control room ceiling I will angle the treatment, but I was thinking about angeling the constructed walls of the control room to get some extra space for the live room. I am working on a new, better (I think) design, which I will post soon. I have decided not to flush mount the monitors because I will probably change monitors soon, and maybe change again if I start doing 5.1 mixing. Thank you so much for your help so far! /Martinthat depends on what design concept you want to use for the room, and on the reason for angling the walls and ceiling. For example, if this is just about reducing flutter echo, then 12° is what you need on the ceiling, and 6° on each wall. But if you are going to do an RFZ design then the angles will probably be much greater. And if you are going to do a CID design or traditional rectangular room design, then you might not need to angle the walls or ceiling themselves, but rather angle the treatment that goes inside the room. You should first define your goals and basic design philosophy, then chose the dimensions, size, shape and angles based on that.
Hi again!
Mauricio! Thank you for your advice. Yes, the only entrance to the new space is from the old live room. I thought the idea of entering from the back of the control room was really good! So I have made a new design like that. But, with the control room in the middle as you suggested, the live room will be too small and the iso booth too big so I came up with another design.
Stuart! I made a new very simple and amateur sketch of a design. I'm sorry for the inaccurate and ugly sketch, i'm just not clever enough to use google sketch up as the rest of you guys :? Hope you can understand my idea at least.
I got some new info from my landlord that there is a possibility to install a kitchen sink in one corner of the room, and I really need a kitchen here so I've added a kitchen room to the design. I tried to make the control room less long and narrow, maybe more suitable for 5.1 mixing?
I thought that if the control room and storage is along the wall with windows to the outside, maybe those rooms will provide isolation for the iso booth and live room? What do you think?
I'm sorry Mauricio, at first I didn't understand what you meant by cutting down costs on outside windows. I wasn't clear on that the windows in the new space are already there. So I won't build them, but more likley build walls over some of them, so it will be a cost anyway.
So if I've been unclear to all of you: I'm not building this place from scratch, it's an already existing room which I will start renting today! :) It's one big room on concrete slab with linoleum carpet, with brick walls all around. It's on ground floor with no floors above. The room is surrounded by the rest of the building on all sides except one, which has six windows to the outside. The roof is tin roof with gypsum board inner cielings. Let me know if I'm leaving something out.
Have a nice day! / Martin
Hi Martin,
Find attached a model for control room from Walter-Storik, they have repeated these layout in many succesfull commercial studios and you can check it in their web page www.wsdg.com
Altough they use a heavy isolation (ie. Alicias Key studio) and calculations which go well beyond what we (amateurs) can do, its a nice, proven, layout.
I'm posting this because I believe it could adapt to your room and leave enough space for iso booth, kitchen to the sides and a nice live room on the front.
Your new layout is nice but is very unprofessional to go through a kitchen to get to the live room. Its better to connect that kind of "not recording" areas with a hallway, that means more doors and some of them with windows built on them, all of this very expensive.
Once again I haven't re drawn your studio and I believe at this point you could:
1) Send us some pictures of the place
2) Get "Build it Like a Pro" book for serious advice on ceilings, floors, windows, etc.
I have to go now and I'm glad I can help out with my humble opinion.
Regards,
Mauricio
It should be possible in a space that size.Ok! I am aiming for a RFZ, if its possible
"CID" is "Controlled Image Design". It is basically a further development of RFZ, but using angled panels around the front of the room to sort of "focus" the sound past the engineer, sort of like a Fresnel lens does, except on a huge scale. Hard to to do right! :)What is CID design?
Yep! That's a good way of doing RFZ. The angles have to be pretty large anyway, so it's a good idea to use the lost triangular spaces as part of another room.but I was thinking about angeling the constructed walls of the control room to get some extra space for the live room.
There is a design here on the forum for soffits where you can change the speakers easily, any time you want. It might be worth looking at that: Flush mounting gives you so many benefits that it is really worthwhile doing, if you can. - Stuart -I have decided not to flush mount the monitors because I will probably change monitors soon,
Hi guys!
Thanx for your input Mauricio! You are right, it's not a good idea to have to walk through a kitchen to get to the live room. I've decided to install a small kitchen in my current temporary control room, which is not on the sketch. I have seen these layouts from walter-storik and they´re really nice, but I think the dimensions of that control room will leave me with a very small live room. I found another design here on the forum, which I've redrawn to fit my space. I will send you some pictures soon! Do you know the author of the book you are reffering to?
Stuart! Thanks for educating me on RFZ and CID, I think I'll stick to the RFZ :) I found a post on how to make soffits that can be changed, very smart! I´ll try that! Is it a good idea to fill the space below the soffits with acoustic hangers?
I needed to change my design again, because all the radiators are placed beneath the windows, so i needed the control and live room to have one side to the windows to get heated, right now its -13 C here in sweden so i really need heaters in all rooms :) I will workout some other solution for the Iso booth. . And also the ventilation-system is placed in such a way that the lay out needs to be something similar to this one. I have based the control room design on this design http://johnlsayers.com/Studio/Mainpage/MP-Leftbank.htm but changed the dimensions and some angels to fit my space. My philosophy right now is to build a good control room and iso booth, and whatever space is left will be a live room. The live room is very long and narrow right now but I can't cut it in half and make two rooms because of HVAC. Any improvements are very welcome!
I've seen that in a lot of John´s designs, there is some sort of fabric on the walls, are there any posts on this subject? I've been looking but haven't found any.
Ok, got to go, take care!
Hi guys!
I´m starting the building of my studio on thursday this week. We will start with laying out a new floor. The carpenter who´s helping me has worked with building recording studios in Stockholm and he had an interesting way of creating a floating floor which I thought I would share with you, to give something back. I haven't seen this construction anywhere on the forum.
The Idea is to lay out one floor for the entire space you're building in. You start by laying out a kind of ground/floor-rock wool insulation boards, looks like this: http://www.bauhaus.se/markskiva-stenull-50-2-88m.html (they are heavier and denser than regular insulation) And on top of that you put chipboard that you glue togehter, and you can also put in pipes for running cables through the floor later.
Then you build the entire construction with walls and ceiling for the rooms on this floor construction, and when this is done you saw/cut the floor along the inner walls of each room, decoupling it from the walls and from the next room.
This floor will cost me 1000 $ for 44 sqm. I don't know how much a conventional floating floor construction would cost, but I'm guessing a lot more. I have no idea how good this floor is regarding TL, but I guess I will find out. I'm thinking it can't possibly be worse than have all the rooms standing on a common concrete slab.
I would be happy to post pics and describe the building progress, if anyone is interested. Should I start a new post for this?
Actually, that is NOT a floating floor at all! And I would NEVER build walls on top of a floor built like that! It would not even be legal where I live, and even if it were, there is the huge issue of stability, plus the major issue of how the entire room will shift and settle over time, as the insulation settles, with the potential for cracking in the walls, and sagging in the doors. I can't even see how you would be able to seal such a floor, which is essential for isolation. Basically, that is taking the concept of a drum riser platform (which is a good idea) and trying to use it to build an entire room. Dangerous! Bad idea. Not recommended. I REALLY think you should read this, about how to float a floor: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8173 - Stuart -The carpenter who´s helping me has worked with building recording studios in Stockholm and he had an interesting way of creating a floating floor which I thought I would share with you, to give something back. I haven't seen this construction anywhere on the forum. The Idea is to lay out one floor for the entire space you're building in. You start by laying out a kind of ground/floor-rock wool insulation boards, looks like this: http://www.bauhaus.se/markskiva-stenull-50-2-88m.html (they are heavier and denser than regular insulation) And on top of that you put chipboard that you glue togehter, and you can also put in pipes for running cables through the floor later.
Stuart,
I can see that you don't approve of this floor construction. I'm guessing you are writing this to prevent me from making a mistake, and I appreciate that. Thing is the floor is allready done and the walls are coming along, so there is no chance of undoing it now. But I am not so sure I would want to undo it, lets just agree to disagree on this one :)
Anyway, I have read the thread you've posted about floating a floor(thanx!), and after doing so I decided that it wasn't necessary for me to build one. But then I got in touch with a carpenter who had worked with building studios for a while, and he suggested I build the type of floor which I've described, and there was several advantages (apart from isolation) for me to do so, and I trust his knowledge and skill, so I had him build it for me. And maybe you are right that it is a dangerous construction and that the insulation will settle and hurt the construction, I guess I will find out.
Lets focus on the ceiling instead. I am thinking about building some kind of cloud above the listening pos., but I dont have enough ceiling height to both angle the ceiling and build a cloud, so my question is, whats the best way to go about this? The ceiling height is now approx 263 cm.
Happy new year every one!
Well, if it is already built and you can't change it, then let's just hope that it will work out OK. Where I live (Chile), walls must be firmly attached to floors, and that can still be done with acoustic isolation in mind. But it cannot be done the way your carpenter did it, since there is nothing holding the walls to the underlying structural floor. It would not pass inspection here, and I'm a little surprised it passed inspection in Sweden. But it is what it is, and if that meets your local legal and structural requirements, then that's how it will have to be.
Technically, that is not a floated floor, but more like the drum-riser concept applied to the entire room. It does not truly isolate, but it sure does help for impact noise.
You definitely will need something up there! Treating your first reflection points is a key concept in acoustic treatment, and the ceiling is a very large first reflection point.Lets focus on the ceiling instead. I am thinking about building some kind of cloud above the listening pos.
Leave the ceiling flat, and as high as possible, then hang an angled cloud below it. The cloud can just be a simple wooden frame filled with insulation, such as 10cm of OC-703 or something similar. Hang it from wires or chains (so that you can adjust the angle easily), and angle it as much as possible, within the limits of your height restriction. If you suspect that you will have modal issues in the vertical direction, then you could make it a "hard backed" cloud by attaching a thick layer of plywood, OSB or MDF on top of the frame. Ideally, you should angle it 12° or more, but that might not be possible. - Stuart -but I dont have enough ceiling height to both angle the ceiling and build a cloud, so my question is, whats the best way to go about this? The ceiling height is now approx 263 cm.
Hi!
Sorry for being silent for such a long time. I have been busy building in the studio. Thanx Stuart for the advice on building a cloud, I actually thought of a "hard backed" cloud as a solution, great that you suggested that, then I know I'm not totally way off on the acoustics principles. I think about 12 degrees is the maximum degree possible with my ceiling height.
I have another question. Take a look at the attached drawing. Between one of my live rooms and the iso booth I have a storage. I need as much TL as possible between the Live room and the Iso booth. And by reading here I have learned that one should try to have a two leaf construction everywhere. And in this case leaf nr 1 is the brick wall between the live room and the storage, the storage acts as a very large air gap( i guess), and the inside of the iso booth with one layer 12 mm OSB and two layers of 12 mm Gypsum board is leaf nr 2. My question is if the TL could be higher if adding a third leaf ( OSB, gypsum x 2) on the outer wall of the iso booth, inside the storage, because of the large airspace? The "airspace" (storage) will of course be filled with instrumensts and equipment etc.
Regards,
Martin
12° would be fine.I think about 12 degrees is the maximum degree possible with my ceiling height.
Well, yes, two-leaf construction does greatly increase isolation, but only if you do it on ALL sides of the room, including the ceiling. If you only do it on one wall, it won't work very well. Sound is like water? it takes the easy path out, so if you do one wall really well, the sound will just take another path out of the room, and go around that wall. So for maximum isolation, you need two leaves on every side of the room. - Stuart -have learned that one should try to have a two leaf construction everywhere. And in this case leaf nr 1 is the brick wall between the live room and the storage, the storage acts as a very large air gap( i guess), and the inside of the iso booth with one layer 12 mm OSB and two layers of 12 mm Gypsum board is leaf nr 2.