Church conversion in North Lincolnshire UK

Thanks Stuart, That's ever so positive and inspiring for me to keep it up... I'm definitely feeling that steep curve right now. I've spent all day reading about room ratios and using this calculator http://www.whealy.com/acoustics/ControlRoom.html Unsure if this is where i should be at right now? If so, is there's a common ratio that you see that pops up on this forum? I've been checking these out 1:1.60:2.33, 1:1.40:1.90, 1:1.30:1.90. It never clicked until today how much of a difference this could make. Is there ways to get some kind of calculator with the side walls angled in at say 12 degrees, guess not? Gonna check them books out thanks again!

I've spent all day reading about room ratios and using this calculator

I use that one sometimes when I need to get more down to gritty details, but I find Bob Gold's to be a lot more useful for just checking things out roughly: http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm There's a huge amount of useful info in there.

Unsure if this is where i should be at right now? If so, is there's a common ratio that you see that pops up on this forum? I've been checking these out

There's a whole bunch of "good" ratios (Louden, Bolt, Sepmeyer, etc.), and very much larger bunch of "not so good". The idea with ratios is not to go overboard, trying to finesse things down to the firth decimal place and fraction of a millimeter! Just get away from the bad ones, reasonably close to a good one, and you'll be fine. All that a good ration does is to ensure that the natural modes in your room are spread around the spectrum more or less evenly, not bunched up together, and with no big gaps in between. There is no such thing as a single perfect "golden ratio", despite what some audiophile magazines and web sites want you to believe. There are just good ratios and bad ratios. So plug in the biggest dimensions that you think you can get with your room (after accounting for the isolation walls), see what comes out of those calculators, then play around a few inches either way on each dimension to see what gets you the best ratio.

Is there ways to get some kind of calculator with the side walls angled in at say 12 degrees, guess not?

Unfortunately, not. The problem is that the simple calculators, such as Whealy's and Golds', can only deal with perfect rectangles, since the equations for calculating modes between parallel surfaces are dead easy. But as soon as two surfaces become non-parallel, you can no longer use the simple equations. The reason is easy to understand: a mode is simply a path around the room that a sound wave can take and get back to its starting point, going the same way, in phase with itself. For parallel surfaces, the most basic modes (axial modes) simply bounce back and forth between two parallel surfaces to do that. But if one of those surfaces is angled, then the "bounce" no longer takes the sound wave back along the same path: it now takes a different path, which is no longer related to the distance between the two surfaces, because that distance changes along the surface. So all simple mode calculators can only do rectangular rooms. For non-rectangular rooms, or rooms with more than six sides, you have to resort to FEM/FEA software, which is a lot more complicated and expensive. You need a skilled operator to correctly build the mesh and create the boundary conditions, then analyze the results. Not within the budget of most home studio builders. And not necessary, either! However, that said, in MHoA F. Alton Everest states that, for small variations from rectangular, you can use the average value of the wall separation and come up with a reasonable approximation of the modal behavior. It will not be accurate, of course, but will at least give you a rough idea of how well you are doing. Especially if only one pair of surfaces is angled. So if you do want to splay your side walls, then just take the average distance between them and plug that into the calculators, to see if you are in the ball park. I also like to plug in the largest and smallest separation as well, just to make sure. But once again, you don't need to go to extremes with your ratios and modes: Stay away from the bad guys, get close to one of the good guys, and you are done. - Stuart -

It's been a while since I put anything up here, sorry, i've been busy reading lots and also started ripping out all the old church fittings. One of my favourite bits that I found online was something on ratios over on GS thread (apologise for linking to another forum). http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/328448-angles-control-room-walls-3.html%20. I liked the stuff that Wes Lachot was talking about from page 3 onwards about 1: 1.26: 1.59 augmented triad room modes. I also enjoyed reading Andre's posts in that thread too, I know he is a regular here right? Here is a layout I've been thinking about. I managed to get the control room, iso booth and even an extra vocal booth all on a ratio that Wes was suggesting. With the live room and what space I had left, I kept playing about with the Bob Gold calculator until I got something on there that was ok. I'm still finding it hard to stay away from splayed walls. I've tried this same layout with straight walls and don't seem to benefit much more space wise like people say... when using the same ratios anyway! If anyone wants to throw in some ideas where things might be better placed, i'd very much appreciate it??? I also know I've haven't got good visual from the control room to anywhere. I was thinking of having a small window on the left of the control room wall and that door being a glass patio door as well, then rigging video monitors to the booths. Hoping this is at least 90% better than my previous ideas. Here is the sketch up if anyone wants a closer look http://www.jasonsanderson.co.uk/church%208.skp So photo... here we go, I have a lot for you guys 1. This is where the main entrance is, to the left is where i'm thinking of the bunks being and the right will be the iso booths 2. This is where the lounge will be, also the entrance to the bathroom and kitchen 3. Me and my dad taking out some of the old church fittings 4. Leading from the lounge into the control room 5. From booths into the live room 6. I have salvaged a few pallets of old tudor bricks that i'm thinking of having on one live room wall, having it all displaced and scatty like those stone walls that townhouse had haha. I have salvaged quite a bit of york stone too! 7. control room and machine room before and after pulpit removal sorry for my dads arse 8. Kitchen and utility 9. Live room 10. These church pews are for sale if anyone wants them, might keep a few myself I'm keeping the piano haha 11. From the live room into the booths 12. I was very tempted to try keep the old baptistery, put a mic and speaker down there and see if I could get a cool effect out it. I had to smash it up because it stuck out way too much above ground level.

i really think the slayer pentagram and upside down cross work best too :lol:

You're really into complexity and magic, aren't you? :mrgreen:

Oh no i did a bady didn't I? aaaaarrrrrrrgggggghhhhhh!!! :roll:

Ideas anyone?

I'm going to be handing the floor plan and my ideas over to an architect this week to help get me through planning permissions etc. Things that I know will be changing are the bunk room and stairs because the stairs need to work a certain way to get up through some roof beams that I didn't know previously. Still not had any feedback from anyone, so I'm just going ahead. I can't wait any longer, I need to get working in it! When i start doing the build is there a way to move this over to the construction/build section of the forum?

This project looks fantastic !! Keep up the great job !

When i start doing the build is there a way to move this over to the construction/build section of the forum?

When you are ready to do that, just let me know (or one of the other moderators) by PM, and we'll move it for you. - Stuart -

cheers to both of you

Here is a bit of an update, think this is how i'm gonna proceed.

a few more pics

Nice! Looks like you have a pretty decent plan there. - Stuart -

Great stuff, now to try getting this through planning permissions and building regs etc. Oh dear, where to start!

try getting this through planning permissions and building regs

Likely first reponse: "WHAAAT? Are you CRAZY? You can't build THAT! And here are a kazillion reasons why not, starting with Section 2517, Article 934, Paragraph 53296, point 128-G-5...". :) Welcome to the wonderful world of studio building!!! Hopefully it wont be that bad. Wishing you well, and hoping that you get a happy, pleasant, helpful inspector to help you work through the red tape! - Stuart -

I read your first line and nearly died of an heart attack then thanks Stuart hahahahahahahahha

looking good imho - one additional thought - on the exterior windows - block them from behind to ensure the mass is equal to the walls otherwise you will not have the isolation you expect. both the live room and the control room. you can paint the wall behind the window to mask the fact its sealed. ensure the sealed exterior windows can "breath" to avoid any significant moisture trapping. not looking to make a moral judgement but you might consider the ramifications on your business if you do anything someone in town considers "desecration" as that may give you headaches... starting from obtaining permits and going forward... just a thought that while you may be targeting "metal" clientele you'd probably be best served by using sensibility gauged from other people in town in how you use the building and surrounding space... especially noise ordinances etc where someone can shut you down pretty quickly... just sayin' as it's pretty common for people to do searches on the Internet and find things said online and then they may make hasty judgments based on incomplete information...

For the guys on here, I've started a thread on GS for the last week, http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/789402-church-conversion-north-lincolnshire-uk.html . While over there i'd done that much reading about making rectangular rooms instead of splayed, that it's way more predictable and easier to control. Since peoples main criticism with the old design was me not utilising the space to it's best, I went back to the drawing board knowing that i'd make better space with use of rectangular rooms. Simpler, so I think Bert might like me now??? :lol: Honest, I'm not trying to be a wizard Obviously the picture doesn't show what's going on in the inner acoustic shell with the rfz, speakers and whatever trapping etc. Glenn, great reply thank you so much!! I presume

gullfo wrote:

looking good imho

you are referring to the newer layout with the sketchup i posted for you, not the old splayed one in the 3d pics. As far as the windows go. I was going to block the ones up on the control room side exactly as you suggest. For the live room and booth I was going have small windows like in the old 3d pics. What i was gonna do with the external windows is first get some one way mirroring window film i've seen so you can only see out not in. Then on the inside I was going to use concrete board and plasterboard to block the window space off that isn't being used. My dad has a great contact with some people that make thick safety laminate glass for big truck windscreens, I had some glass from them for my old studio that worked great for blocking sound. I was gonna give the external window space that isn't blocked up a double glaze with this thick stuff then inside the live room window space have a double glazed frame made for there... i'm thinking it should do it. i'm also going to reseal the old existing frames up. As far as my neighbours go, everyone one on the street seems pretty cool, it's a nice little village where everyone says hello and smiles. Most are middle aged, most have asked what i intend to do with the place and i have told them. Everyone as been positive as soon as i have told them how much work i am putting into making it isolated. I am trying to appeal to a broader cliental with this studio Glenn, I personally don't listen to too much heavy stuff anymore, It's just where i've carved the first 10 years of my carear. You'd be surprised how respectful most bands like that are but i totally agree with you, notice I have edited the starter to both this and the GS thread as to not scare anyone off.

Hiya dudes, it's been a while since I've been on here, thought it was time to update where I'm at. I've been working on the design and reading alot. Also had a few consulting session with an architect who has done some great studios in Sheffield (my current local area). I've still not done much with the build. We got all the roof problems sorted so the place is finally water proof. This cruel winter has given the inside a bit of a beating and I can imagine it taking a while for the damp to go away. Think I'm pretty much there with design but want to get your opinions before I start making up the Planning permissions documents. I know I'm going way over my initial perceived budget too but I'm kinda seeing it as a lifetime project. If I can get the control room up and running first, I can at least make some money to pump back in and build as and when. You will notice there is a second floor in both halls now, a storage room, upstairs toilet and green room with gallery view down to the live room. I've shuffled around so much by now that I think I've got the best use of space. Pretty much would hang myself it i had to start this model again haha. I've learnt a lot on sketchup since I last shared anything so i hope it's ok. I plan to start getting into layout this next week to sort the PP documents if anyone has any advice on preparing a model for layout (styles, scales, line weights, hashing, hiding things, scenes extra).

a few new design pictures

anybody any comments? thanks! 8)

It looks pretty good to me, but it would help to have more isometric views, or preferably even the entire 3D model in SketchUp, so it is easier to look at all the details. - Stuart -