My next questions are about the Live, or Tracking Room. It is 8.5m long x6.7m wide x 4.4m tall. The basic construction is concrete block, but: one wall is completely covered by peg board over mineral wool. A second wall has been built out with plasterboard in 4' wide angled sections, the final two walls have a thick theater curtain that can be opened or closed. The floor is a very ugly/ dirty composite tile. The ceiling is a perforated metal tile typical for commercial sound control in buildings of the late 70's/ early 80's.
If you stand in exactly the right places we can get fairly decent recordings because it is pretty dead, but it is very inconsistent and most of the room has flutter echoes, mode problems etc.
Our goals:
absorption in the right places to make the entire room useable
clouds in various places for the ceiling
possibly diffusors behind the curtains so we could open them and have an option for some useable resonance.
make it look nicer (LOL)
a baffle for the ventilation system.
Budget- around $1500
Extra assets that we have:
Theatrical pipe grid on ceiling to hang clouds and lighting from
4 bass traps, 4'x2'x1' with an inch of 603 and 12" of fluffy fiberglass
2- 5x7 platforms, about 1 1/2 feet high
6 Rt angle triangle platforms, 4x5x6, about 8"tall
5 equilateral triangular gobos 3 ft on each side, 8' tall, on castors. These also serve as membrane bass traps, with 603 insulation inside, each side is 1/8" plywood and the whole thing is airtight.
2 QRD diffusors, 2 1/2' wide by 7' tall
Some artwork we can put 603 or roxul behind to make bass traps
we also have lots of commercial carpet squares, I don't want to use them, but the floor is really ugly!
Here are two sketch up graphics
And a few pictures
Looking forward to your suggestions!
URG Studio Live Room
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 17706.
Nice! Should be able to do some decent recording in there, if it is treated correctly. Even drums should sound good.It is 8.5m long x6.7m wide x 4.4m tall.
Perforated panel. It probably isn't actually peg board, but rather perforated panel, designed as acoustic treatment. If that was done properly, then that is good. (If it really is pegboard, then that might or might not work.) Got any close up photos of that?The basic construction is concrete block, but: one wall is completely covered by peg board over mineral wool.
Probably also done for acoustics, to break up the parallelism of the opposing walls, and control flutter echo.A second wall has been built out with plasterboard in 4' wide angled sections,
Hmmmm.... probably not so useful, although it does allow you to vary the acoustics of the room a bit.the final two walls have a thick theater curtain that can be opened or closed.
It might be ugly, but its probably good acoustically. If you absolutely hate the floor then you could maybe lay laminate flooring on top of it, if it is reasonable flat and level. That could look really nice. But it would probably blow your budget.The floor is a very ugly/ dirty composite tile.
That's probably not such a good idea either. What's above that?The ceiling is a perforated metal tile typical for commercial sound control in buildings of the late 70's/ early 80's.
I'd suspect that the flutter is probably in the vertical plane, since that "angled drywall" should be helping to break it up in that direction, and the curtains should be helping a bit there too. Clouds sound like a good idea. Maybe also some large baffles hung vertically, above the lighting truss.but it is very inconsistent and most of the room has flutter echoes, mode problems etc.
Diffusers sound like a good idea, and the room is certainly big enough to benefit form them,possibly diffusors behind the curtains so we could open them and have an option for some useable resonance.
Lose some of the artwork! And repaint the deathly black with something a little more cheerful :) Seriously, have you measured the room response with REW? That could help to reveal some of the issues. - Stuart -Looking forward to your suggestions!
Thanks Stuart :o
Here is a close up pic of the perf wall
It looks a lot like pegboard to me! If it is, would there be any benefit to filling in some of the holes to create a binary sequence similar to RPG's BAD panels?
Where is the best place to hang clouds in a room of this size, and is there a percentage rule or any other guidelines?
We are getting the floors stripped and waxed and hopefully that will help clean it up a bit.
The theater and photography people want us to keep the room black :blah: but I thought I would make some colorful fiberglass panels to hang on the walls.
My final question is how to use REQ Wizard in a tracking or live room. Everything I have found is about testing your listening locations, but for a tracking room, I would think you would want to test lots of spaces to find the best places to put mics, etc. So where should I place the speaker and the microphone to get some basic ideas of the acoustics?
We got our budget approved yesterday to start purchasing building supplies so I should have some pics soon!
Yep, it sure does! Poor man's perforated panel.It looks a lot like pegboard to me!
Not really. Perf panel works on the percentage perforation, panel thickness, hole diameter, and cavity depth, so I don't think you could also make it into a binary diffuser.If it is, would there be any benefit to filling in some of the holes to create a binary sequence similar to RPG's BAD panels?
Clouds are absorption, so they will be most effective where velocity is high and pressure is low: meaning "not right up against the ceiling, but space a bit away". But there's no specific location that is "best", since they aren't really tuned devices.Where is the best place to hang clouds in a room of this size, and is there a percentage rule or any other guidelines?
If you want to check the modal response, then put the speaker in one tri-corner, and the mic in the diagonally opposite tri-corner. That will excite/detect as many modes as possible. But if you are just after general acoustics, then set up the speaker in a typical location where you might put a large instrument (eg, grand piano), and the mic in a typical location where you might set a room mic, for picking up ambient room sound. Yeah, I know: that doesn't help a lot! :)My final question is how to use REQ Wizard in a tracking or live room. Everything I have found is about testing your listening locations, but for a tracking room, I would think you would want to test lots of spaces to find the best places to put mics, etc. So where should I place the speaker and the microphone to get some basic ideas of the acoustics?
As we say around here: "No pics means it didn't happen". !!! - Stuart -We got our budget approved yesterday to start purchasing building supplies so I should have some pics soon!
We are ordering materials and will start construction next week! Here are some ideas for placements of Broadband and Bass Absorbers. I really feel pretty clueless about where to put them. We also have a 8x4 poly diffusor that I thought we could hang somewhere until phase three when we can build more clouds and diffusors.
The "clouds" are 4'x4'x4" thick with one inch of 603 fiberglass on the bottom with a layer of roxul on top, all covered with burlap.
The Bass traps on the walls are 4'x2'x6" thick with a 1/4" plywood membrane in front, 6" pine sides and a 5/8" OSB back, all sealed air tight and covered with muslin.
The large bass trap is 5'x7'x6" with similar construction.
The slat walls are per John's design.
we have decided to go with a carpeted floor :( it's left over, (ie-free) commercial grade carpet squares) but put several moveable panels of plywood covered by laminate to actually record on, as well as several wood platforms that we already own. It is not my first choice, but it will work for now. Someday when we have more money, we can replace the whole thing with wood or laminate!
That's not a bass trap: it is a tuned resonator (membrane trap) tuned to roughly 85 Hz. Why do you think you need to absorb so much 85 Hz, and not other frequencies?The Bass traps on the walls are 4'x2'x6" thick with a 1/4" plywood membrane in front, 6" pine sides and a 5/8" OSB back, all sealed air tight and covered with muslin.
"603 fiberglass"? I'm not sure what that is. I can't find it in the Owens Corning catalogue, and the only mentions of "603 fiberglass" in a Google search seem to be about fiberglass packing type and resin. Are you sure you have the right identifier there? In any event, 1" of fiberglass is nowhere hear enough. I would suggest at least 4". 1" stuff is not much use at low frequencies, which is where most of your problems will probably be. - Stuart -The "clouds" are 4'x4'x4" thick with one inch of 603 fiberglass
I guess I got a few details wrong. I was working (from memory) off Ethan Winers plans http://www.ethanwiner.com/basstrap.html http://www.ethanwiner.com/BTPlans.gif Looking at the plans again, it seems like I should make one with 1/4" plywood, and one with 1/8". but maybe I should just start by making all broadband absorbers, some 4" and some 6" and then measure with REQ wizard to see where we are. I forgot to mention that there are 4'x2'x12" corner traps place diagonally in all of the upper corners. They are made with regular "fluffy" insulation, but Ethan says that if you use 12" of it, it should work. If it would be better, I could replace some of the "fluffy" with Roxul Safe'n'Sound. I also am planning on adding "hangers" in the area behind the curtain, and in the ceiling rafters.That's not a bass trap: it is a tuned resonator (membrane trap) tuned to roughly 85 Hz. Why do you think you need to absorb so much 85 Hz, and not other frequencies?
the fiberglass is just to provide a smooth, flat surface for the bottom of the cloud, the work is done by 3 1/2" of Roxul Safe'n'sound that rests on top of the fiberglass, (which is actually fiberglass duct board that I got for really cheap from a HVAC company that miscut it). Being frugal (ie- poor) I am making use of materials that I already have (duct board), or that I can get a good price on locally (Roxul). The complaint I read about the Roxul is that it is not as rigid, and sags. I am hoping the addition of the fiberglass will help with that. How many cloud panels do you think I will need? The university is budgeting enough for 5 panels, plus the membrane traps, but if I don't need to buy the plywood, I could build more cloud panels!"603 fiberglass"? I'm not sure what that is. I can't find it in the Owens Corning catalogue, and the only mentions of "603 fiberglass" in a Google search seem to be about fiberglass packing type and resin. Are you sure you have the right identifier there? In any event, 1" of fiberglass is nowhere hear enough. I would suggest at least 4". 1" stuff is not much use at low frequencies, which is where most of your problems will probably be.
I have been negligent about taking pictures and reporting on our progress, but we have been hard at work!
With three of the six clouds hung, there is already a difference. less flutter and more immediate presence. Moving the qrds from the control room to the tracking room is a big improvement as well.
I had another thread about the control room, but I am consolidating, here are some pics.
Even without the rear wall treatments in place, the improvements are spectacular. I had thought we would need to upgrade our monitors, but with the baffle, internal hangers, and the side treatments (we still have our old cloud up, it will soon be replaced with a custom fitted one) the clarity, imaging, and depth are unbelievable! I can hear a little bit of the high end harshness of the Monitor Ones on certain pieces, but I can live with it for a long time! So far, our materials have come to well under a thousand dollars. We have done more work since these pictures were taken, I will take some more pictures over the weekend and post them soon. Thank you everyone for all of your help!
Great to see that the construction is going well, and even better that you can already hear major improvement in the sound! :)
It's looking REALLY good. Nice workmanship, too!
- Stuart -
We were working on the back wall of the control room, and I thought I should ask for some help on this one.
Our room is long and narrow (8' x 21') The narrowness led to some changes in the front in order to get a RFZ. The back seems like a good place for some storage areas, but there are several issues.
1) The light switches are on the wall immediately to the right of the door as you enter, so to make an angled space behind the roxul it will have to be left open. I built this today, and noticed an immediate improvement in the bass, but would it be better if we moved the light switch (probably immpossible, but I can ask :roll: ) so that the air space is more enclosed?
2) The way I have it set up now, the hangers are on the opposite side of the storage areas from the roxul wall. This puts them right behind the burlap at the back of the control area. Is this OK, or is there a better way to do it?
Thanks!
Probably not necessary to move it, but photos would help to understand the situation better. What is the "angled space behind the roxul" for?1) The light switches are on the wall immediately to the right of the door as you enter, so to make an angled space behind the roxul it will have to be left open. I built this today, and noticed an immediate improvement in the bass, but would it be better if we moved the light switch (probably immpossible, but I can ask :roll: ) so that the air space is more enclosed?
Once again, it's hard to say without photos and a more detailed explanation. If you could maybe post a couple of photos, that would really help to understand things. You are there and can see exactly what you are talking about, but the rest of us can't, unless you show is! :) - Stuart -2) The way I have it set up now, the hangers are on the opposite side of the storage areas from the roxul wall. This puts them right behind the burlap at the back of the control area. Is this OK, or is there a better way to do it?