Hello! :D
I've been a long time lurker, mostly for personal projects, but now that I'm actually helping a local rehearsal rooms business (Red Star Music, http://www.redstarmusic.com.au) finish off their recording studio, I thought it was time to make an account. If this thread is in the wrong section, please feel free to move it (it's kinda borderline construction design and simple acoustic panel placement advice)..
So long story short, most of the studio is already built. The vocal booth is nice and dead, the live room has a nice live sound and we're about to put a modest amount of gear into the control room. Most of this was completed years ago. Because the monitors we've chosen are not the best but 'will do the job', I want to make sure the room is treated quite well. That said we're on a budget so I'm at the same time trying to keep things simple.
The main advice I'm seeking is to do with treatment, e.g. the correct angles to use, and the right placement for the setup (have chosen the far end (shorter side) of the rectangular shaped room so far from what I've learned in my lurking but maybe if the window side (longer side) could work?). Any other advice would be welcome also. 8)
I'm going to upload the sketchup drawing and export some better pictures with dimensions, but this should get things started.
Also I apologise if I haven't given enough info, we're winging it a bit, but I'm thinking as long as we stick to some of the main principles we should be ok. :oops:
In the images I've attached, I've distributed identical 400x1200mm panels around the room based on where it seems the sound will hit first. Some of them will cover the existing window, but we can make that look ok with some curtain dressing. I'm not sure if a room with such a short ceiling height (1800 - 2010mm) needs a cloud, but I've put one in there. In the image the corner pieces behind the desk as at 45 degree angles, but maybe wider panels at 30 degrees is better?
On the back wall there is an air con duct and some shelving but we can build over the shelving if need be. Like I said (and I apologise) we're winging it a bit, but I figure if I start getting the listening position right the rest will fall in place.
Also, another apology, I'm rather tired after finishing a busy night at the rehearsal studios (downstairs from the future recording studio) and have a vague feeling that this writing could have been a lot better to read if I'd have written it in the morning after a coffee, but... We can't win 'em all. :oops:
Thanks very much for reading this far, and if you skipped to this line, thanks for clicking on the thread title :P
Re: Finishing off our studio in Brisbane
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 17620.
Sorry for the double post - thought I'd add:
-The speakers will be on home built welded steel stands, possibly with some prefab pads to sit on between the speaker and the stand
-The desk will be 32mm MDF on custom legs (probably the same steel as the stands)
-The weird box looking thing up the back is a couch we already have around.. I just quickly took it's dimensions so I could see if a couch would fit in the tiny space.
:)
Wow - triple post!
... Made some changes. Made the panels either side the listening positon angle inwards at 6 degrees and then the panels behind the speakers at 60, so they are parallel with the back of the speakers. Now I'll be patient and stop posting, I promise.
Hi Stuart, and welcome! How could I not welcome a guy with such a great name!!!! :)
It probably will. Most rooms will need some sort of cloud on the first reflection points.I'm not sure if a room with such a short ceiling height (1800 - 2010mm) needs a cloud,
But you don't say what type of panel you are talking about! Absorption, diffusion, tuned membrane, reflective, perforated, slatted, etc. It would really help to know what those are... If that is all absorption, then you might have too much in there. It would probably be better to approach this using the commonly recommended method around here: first, measure the empty room acoustically using REW, then add the first round of treatment (superchunks in corners, absorption on first reflection points and the back wall) then measure again with REW to see what that accomplished, and what still needs to be done, add some more, measure some more, etc. This is a control room, so the basic constraints are easily understood, and the basic plan is pretty "standard" (if there is such a thing as "standard" for studio design!).I've distributed identical 400x1200mm panels around the room based on where it seems the sound will hit first.
If done right, then yes! Start with good geometry for speakers / listening position / walls, and basic treatment, then move om from there by stages, as needed.but I figure if I start getting the listening position right the rest will fall in place.
Make those stands as massive and heavy as you can. Fill them with dry sand. And build them to get the speakers at the right height: the acoustic axis of the speaker should be at 1.2 m above the floor (note! Not the top or bottom of the speaker: the acoustic axis!) And yes, use a layer of Sorbothane between the stand and the speaker, to decouple it properly.-The speakers will be on home built welded steel stands, possibly with some prefab pads to sit on between the speaker and the stand
That would only be necessary if they are solid, hard, rigid reflective panels, and you are hoping to treat flutter echo with them. If they are absorptive panels, then you don't need to do that.Made the panels either side the listening position angle inwards at 6 degrees
That's one possibility, but a better idea would be superchunks. Of course, the very best would be to soffit-mount the speakers! - Stuart -and then the panels behind the speakers at 60,
Thankyou, and likewise! Always good to see another Stuart :P Thanks for your reply, I appreciate you taking the time.Hi Stuart, and welcome! How could I not welcome a guy with such a great name!!!! :)
Cool - I've left it in.It probably will. Most rooms will need some sort of cloud on the first reflection points.I'm not sure if a room with such a short ceiling height (1800 - 2010mm) needs a cloud,
So I've gone over this design again after your response, and started from scratch, this time starting with superchunks in the corners, an angled panel on the front and back walls, then added flat panels at all the reflection points I could see (by ruling lines from the speakers). See attached pics. When I used to run a sound company we would get a guru friend of ours to tune the system using smart analysis, so indeed I'm familiar with frequency analysis working out well... We'll have to give this a try. I used the reverb calculator tool, and it came out with only mid and low frequencies above .3 seconds. The panels I've put in are broadband absorbers (so I learned after studying the site here more closely). They would be thin pine frames with -insert density here- rockwool/insulation batts fitted, 50mm depth. I'm not sure if these would eat up too wide of a range of frequencies or if going broadband is fine in most cases... I have seen some guys putting plastic sheeting into their panels, so perhaps that would help conserve the high end in this circumstance? Perhaps it doesn't matter too much though...But you don't say what type of panel you are talking about! Absorption, diffusion, tuned membrane, reflective, perforated, slatted, etc. It would really help to know what those are... If that is all absorption, then you might have too much in there. It would probably be better to approach this using the commonly recommended method around here: first, measure the empty room acoustically using REW, then add the first round of treatment (superchunks in corners, absorption on first reflection points and the back wall) then measure again with REW to see what that accomplished, and what still needs to be done, add some more, measure some more, etc. This is a control room, so the basic constraints are easily understood, and the basic plan is pretty "standard" (if there is such a thing as "standard" for studio design!).I've distributed identical 400x1200mm panels around the room based on where it seems the sound will hit first.
I was actually thinking previously to just work out the best option and build it but this pragmatic approach seems prudent, as above, I'll talk to the bossman.If done right, then yes! Start with good geometry for speakers / listening position / walls, and basic treatment, then move om from there by stages, as needed.but I figure if I start getting the listening position right the rest will fall in place.
Will do!Make those stands as massive and heavy as you can. Fill them with dry sand. And build them to get the speakers at the right height: the acoustic axis of the speaker should be at 1.2 m above the floor (note! Not the top or bottom of the speaker: the acoustic axis!) And yes, use a layer of Sorbothane between the stand and the speaker, to decouple it properly.-The speakers will be on home built welded steel stands, possibly with some prefab pads to sit on between the speaker and the stand
I'm a little out of my depth here, not sure on what flutter echo is, but based on the reverb calculator I need to be focusing on the low-lowmid.. I've revised the design to be with superchunks and the other changes noted above. Thanks again for your reply. Please note that the last two images were brainstorm designs that I thought I'd include in case they end up being a better way to go, ignore them otherwise.That would only be necessary if they are solid, hard, rigid reflective panels, and you are hoping to treat flutter echo with them. If they are absorptive panels, then you don't need to do that.Made the panels either side the listening position angle inwards at 6 degreesThat's one possibility, but a better idea would be superchunks. Of course, the very best would be to soffit-mount the speakers!and then the panels behind the speakers at 60,
So I guess we'll be going with this one for now. We're going to get the angled panels and the super chunks built, along with the large wall panels and cloud and then take it from there. One question though - do the angled panels need to be 'full' like super chunks? Or just 2x 50x2000x600 panels side by side at an angle?
(Going with the below design, except the cloud will probably end up a rectangle rather than trapezoid)
External image, not preserved — original: http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/download/file.php?id=44443&mode=view
Any thoughts? :)
Also - would 38mm wide pine be too thick to use as a frame for a broadband panel absorber?
use 19mm for support frame for the absorbers. using 38mm for the angled hard back cloud with lights over the mix position is a good idea though. back the cloud with 19mm plywood and 19mm MDF and angle it about 15° lower in the front over the speakers. leave around 300mm around the edges and use chains and hooks to hold it so you can adjust it.
First of all, sorry for the thread-necromancy! Thanks for the help so far too!
The owner had to put things on hold for a little while but it's all systems go now and we're getting ready to order material.
We're going to use the same insulation material for the walls, bass traps and cloud - around 30kg per cubic metre. Just wanted to check in before we did, in case doing so is a huge oversight.
Looking at Higgins Insulation in Brisbane, as per the reccomendations found elsewhere on the forum.
We've designed everything for 50mm thick insulation, but it looks like a lot of the heavier 30kg stuff is up around 70 or 85mm. Either way, if 30kg is the right density, I'll just speak with the suppliers to see what they can do.
If we have to compromise on density to get down the 50mm width, what do you guys think would be the minimum density we should go for?
Keeping in mind its the same insulation for the walls (broadband absorbers), bass traps, angled absorbers on the front and back walls and cloud.
Thanks in advance for any further input, it's greatly appreciated.
Cheers!
Oh, and here's some photos of where the design is at currently. (Attached).
It's changed a little bit since the previous picture, but not by a huge amount.
should be fine. Are you talking about fiberglass or mineral wool?around 30kg per cubic metre. Just wanted to check in before we did, in case doing so is a huge oversight.
Thicker is better! :) If you have teh space to fit in the thicker stuff, then use that by all means.We've designed everything for 50mm thick insulation, but it looks like a lot of the heavier 30kg stuff is up around 70 or 85mm. Either way, if 30kg is the right density, I'll just speak with the suppliers to see what they can do.
What is the plan for the glass? It appears to be at your first reflection point... - Stuart -Oh, and here's some photos of where the design is at currently
Firstly, thanks for the response! Really appreciate yours and everyone's time and advice.
It's the Higgins Insulation stuff, though I'll have to double check with them. We received a quote but it doesn't say and I can't recall whether I specified one way or the other over the phone. I'll come back to you on that one! :) After doing more reading on here, I got the quote on 48kg insulation for the angled panels and the side walls, and 32kg insulation for the bass traps. We'll also be trying to locate some of the '6 mill' plastic to cover the front of the bass traps and angled panels with too to avoid too much high end being sucked out of the room. Should we do this on all the panels, or just the bass traps and angled panels as planned? Also, if we can't find the '6 mill' plastic, how thick should a cover be if we used say, plywood?should be fine. Are you talking about fiberglass or mineral wool?around 30kg per cubic metre. Just wanted to check in before we did, in case doing so is a huge oversight.
Thanks, will keep that in mind from here. I was worried about them only having a certain thickness, but they're custom making the insulation for exactly what we've designed. Even doing the cuts for us too!Thicker is better! :) If you have teh space to fit in the thicker stuff, then use that by all means.We've designed everything for 50mm thick insulation, but it looks like a lot of the heavier 30kg stuff is up around 70 or 85mm. Either way, if 30kg is the right density, I'll just speak with the suppliers to see what they can do.
We're going to have a moveable panel that will sit in front of the window. Probably make a basic latch or something to hold it in place, but easy enough to remove completely for when you want to see whats going on in the live room. Thanks very much - we're nearly there. Just doing one last measurement and will be able to order to insulation. The wood is already here, so we'll be posting 'before and after' shots before we know it :)What is the plan for the glass? It appears to be at your first reflection point...Oh, and here's some photos of where the design is at currently
So I spoke to Higgins, and the insulation they've quoted on is polyester, 32kg for the superchunks and 48kg for the angled panel absorbers and wall panels.
If that's suitable, then my last real concern is whether or not we're sucking too much mid and high out of the room by having nearly all of it covered with 48kg density panel absorbers. I guess we'll have to just place the plastic sheeting over the appropriate panels. If not all of them?
We've started building the framing so I'll have some photos of that up soon.
That might be OK, but I'm not very up to speed on polyester, or what density it should be for optimum gas flow resistivity. The 32 kg/m3 recommendation is for fiberglass insulation, and the 4k kg/m3 recommendation is for mineral wool insulation. Polyester very likely has different properties that would imply different densities. can you get any actual independent acoustic test data from the manufacturer, that shows detailed specs on how it actually performs?polyester, 32kg for the superchunks and 48kg for the angled panel absorbers and wall panels.
Some, but not all. Do the ones overhead with thin plastic, for sure, and the actual corner bass traps with thick plastic), but do not put plastic on the others initially. FIRST, test the actual room response when you have done that, using REW, and see how it is behaving with just the overhead plastic. If you are losing too much of the highs, according to REW, then add some palstic to the others, one panel at a time, until you get a good balance. - Stuart -guess we'll have to just place the plastic sheeting over the appropriate panels. If not all of them?