Rod's Super Door - how to incorporate a glass panel help

Hi, The fire officer has visited my studio which is still under construction 2.5 yrs on and has stipulated that the exit door in the drum room which leads into my beautiful garden has to be a single door, can't be a double door as i have used in the other rooms in the studio. So, in an effort to keep him happy I want to build one of rod's super doors. However, I would like to use glass in the doors construction so as to allow some natural light into the room and to watch my flowers bloom as i'm playing the drums. Questions 1. Do I go with two panes of glass as one would do in constructing a studio window 2. Should I use just 1 really thick pane Any help will be much appreciated Thanks hally

Looks like the forum is being spammed...

I'm not an expert but for my build I had some 2nd hand heavy hospital fire doors that have a reinforced glass viewing, to the studio side I have added a sheet of MDF with a cut out for some 12mm laminated glass to be added when I get round to it, You can see them here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15407&start=90 My sons band are now using this small room to practice in so probably around 110 decibels :shot: I haven't tested with a sound level meter as have asked someone I know if I can borrow one from there works but I am already very happy with the build. i suppose its all going to depend on the amount of isolation you are looking for in your situation,

Glas is just another material. Only fancy about it is that it's transparent :) What I'm trying to say is that the materials used to make a door should compliment each other. A super heavy door with a thin piece of glass does not work. Well, since glass is about three times as heavy as, for example, MDF is. you can place a 1/2 inch thick piece of glass into a 1,5 inch thick MDF door. clear?

Thanks Ro, I understand the concepts regarding using glass in soundproof structures. What I am trying to determine is weather or not to use 1 very thick pane of glass in the super door or to use two panes seperated by a sealed air space approx 2". The two panes of glass wud match the density of the window which is also installed in the drum room, inner leaf pane of window is 3/4" and outter leaf pane 1/2"... I will upload a drawing of my plan when I get home later... Thanks for the input regards hally

Here is my idea for the construction of the door Front view of the proposed door (from inside the room) The view from the exterior/ garden Here is a 3d detailed section of the proposed door Any input on this design and if it is likely to maintain the isolation achieved with the room within a room structure already built... thanks hally

Hally, use one thick piece...the decoupling is not there so using two pieces only complicates the process. Trying to build a door, of this type weight, gonna be hard to do just to keep it on the hinges much less to keep it from sagging and dragging at the threshold.

... just following the thread ... but one question ... Why so much glass ?? meaning, above the head, and nearly down to the ankles. Unless there is some great view out there .... however, a single sheet of glass that size might have issue of stability in the frame [?!?]. Also, no possible way to acoustically treat the door. I my studio, the door has no glass in it, which is great, because I was able to hang a 2'x4' broadband absorber off of it. Again, not fully seeing your particulars, I was just wondering [out loud] :) [Also ... still trying to learn from everyones build] !! Sincerely.

Hally, read my initial reply. It says "it's just another material". What I mean with that is that you don't need to treat it any different than the other material used to make the door. So, if you door is a single leaf (as it is), add a single pain of glass with equal (or more) mass than the wood used. Use laminated glass for example.

Unless there is some great view out there .... however, a single sheet of glass that size might have issue of stability in the frame [?!?].

I was thinking the same thing... and also thinking of the large dollar signs that such a large piece of thick glass implies... Unless you really need that much light, I think I'd go with a rather smaller piece of glass, in just the part of the door where you really need to see out/in. - Stuart -

A sheet like that, say 12mm, will cost about 150 euro round here. It's worth it!

Wow! You guys get it cheap! A piece of glass that big (say around 70 cm x 1.7m) would cost 2 to 4 times that here in Santiago, even for ordinary window glass, and much, much more for proper laminated glass. Lucky you! - Stuart -

thanks for the replies, i think i have got it... A single piece of glass whois mass/ density is eaqual to or more than that of the wooden part of the door structure... I will do a build diary of my build to illustrate the process... thanks again for the help regards hally PS, to save me doing the math which i hate, how thick should the glass be? The door consists of 3mm oak veneer, 45mm firedoor with chip/ particle board core, 1 layer of 18mm mdf and a 2nd layer of 18mm mdf...

Hi again, I had a read of rods book again and came across a small paragraph in the door construction chapter...

WINDOWS IN DOORS Installing windows in doors is similar to the installation in walls—you want an air space and airtight construction. However, you become limited in air space and window thickness, depending on the thickness of the door assembly. If you use a double door assembly, then you would use the same glass thickness that is used on the walls. For example, one door would have 1/2" glass, and the other would be 3/4". Remember that you cannot use fl oat glass in this application. In a single super door, you can use two separate pieces of glass. The door itself is 1 3/4" thick, and the additional lead (1/8") and 3/4" plywood make a fi nal thickness of 2 5/8". A typical 3068 super door will weight around 304 pounds, thus about 15.2 psf. So a piece of glass 3/4" thick, coupled with a piece 3/8" thick would give comparable mass to the door and would allow for a 1 1/2" air gap between panes using fl ush window stops. You’ll look at the construction of one of these doors in Chapter 8.

He talks about a single door construction and specifies two panes of glass with an 1.2" air gap which is similar to my design above...now i am not dismissing the suggestions I have recieved already or trying to undermine anyone but my thinking is to go with smaller panes of glass, say 1/2 the size of said design, encase the glass edges in neoprene to decouple from door structure, inside pane of glass 3/4" and outside pane 1/2". My air gap will be approx 2"... I am going for max isolation here, my walls have lots of mass, outer leaf solid concrete block, inner leaf is 18mm mdf and 2 layers of 15mm PB. The weak link in the room is the outer leaf ceiling which is beefed up and composed of 2 x 18mm MDF and 2 x PB... Any more thoughts on my design thanks hally

I agree Hally, that is the way to go...as long as the door frame/hinges can support the door, and the door proper can support the glass and the weight of the door...it can get ugly is all I am saying :)

Rod doesn't know what he's talking about ;) How I read it: you need to equal the mass of the single door. you need very thick glass for that. So you can use two pieces of lesser thickness instead. (from a practical point of view: where the hell would ye get a one inch thick piece of glass.. it's really thick. Since smaller glass is easier to get, why not just use two panes of 1/2 inch. only in a single door construction 'course). But, first let's see how thick piece you really need.

how thick should the glass be? The door consists of 3mm oak veneer, 45mm firedoor with chip/ particle board core, 1 layer of 18mm mdf and a 2nd layer of 18mm mdf...

Nice, but how thick are your walls? And how many walls you have? You want one super door in a double wall infrastructure? Let's, for argument sake, say you have a SINGLE wall which is 3x12mm(1/2") GB. Total 36mm (1,5"). If you make a door with a MDF core (for mass) then you'll need the same thickness. Since MDF has about the same mass as BG. So your door will be, atleast, 36mm. That's two sheets of 18mm MDF. Nice. Since glass has 1/3 of a mass of GB (or MDF) you'll need 12mm glass. single sheet. there you go.

Ro, that comment is shamefull

Rod doesn't know what he's talking about

Where can I purchase a copy of your book on the subject of building studios :wink:

I am going for alot of isolation here as the room is a drum booth next to the main tracking room, my walls have lots of mass, outer leaf solid concrete block, inner leaf is 18mm mdf and 2 layers of 15mm PB. The weak link in the room is the outer leaf ceiling which is beefed up and composed of 2 x 18mm MDF and 2 x PB...

Going by your suggestion I calculate that i wud need approx 1" thickness of tempered glass or as you suggest 2 pieces of 1/2" pressed together. The Maths Inner leaf wall mass PSF = 7.9 psf Inner leaf 3/4" glass window pane = 9.84 psf Door timber composition = 13 psf 1" glass door pane = 13.12 psf Ro, why are you so opposed to the double pane with air space construction, have you tested both designs and am I being way too anal about this... To Brien, The door frame which is 1.5" thick is screwed and glued to 3 x 2"x5" struts which is part of the inner leaf wall framing, I am confident that with 4 or 5 hinges (have to check specs of hinges) that there will be no movement... thanks - hally

I wasn't thinking so much about the frame, true that is an issue, but the door. Usually, the frame of a door if not a one piece which is the better choice all the way around, it will be bonded and glued, biscuit joints, laps, etc. so the door does not shift downward from the weight of the glass.

xSpace wrote:

I wasn't thinking so much about the frame, true that is an issue, but the door. Usually, the frame of a door if not a one piece which is the better choice all the way around, it will be bonded and glued, biscuit joints, laps, etc. so the door does not shift downward from the weight of the glass.

Actually, you don't need to say "weight of the glass". It's just the weight of the door. Never mind the material, it'll be heavy anyway :)

Ro, why are you so opposed to the double pane with air space construction, have you tested both designs and am I being way too anal about this.

I'm not, perse. :) It's just that you don't need to go through all that hassle. The chance you make a mistake is higher when using two panes instead of just one. A single pain can be better sealed for example. If you use just ONE heavy door (which is a single leaf), you can safely use two panes of glass (double leaf). You see what I'm aiming at here? Single vs double leaf in the same construction.

"Actually, you don't need to say "weight of the glass". It's just the weight of the door. Never mind the material, it'll be heavy anyway :)" The frame of the door being made of minimal material is important in this instance. What is expected to support the weight of the glass and the door it self is compromised by the slightness of the wooden frame. The same wooden frame that the glass out weights and will be placing gravitational pressure on the bottom stile and the next right angle path of least resistance...usually comes in two flavors, a split on the hinge side, but almost always the lock side. :) Which produces the drag that we are all familiar with in older homes. Am I earning my keep yet:)

Well, the wooden frame that supports the glass should be about the same mass. The whole door, the whole structure, should be about equal in mass. If you match the glass with the mass of your walls but neglect to match the wood also.... you'll create a weak point. So, the door should be measured as ONE structure. Nevermind the materials that's used. THAT, gentlemen, was my point all along. remember... there is no spoon :shock:

I appreciate what you are saying...but the wooden frame just has to be able to support the non-structural void that is the weight of the glass, this is where you have to be concerned. The TL of the door is one thing, the ability of the wooden frame to remain stable, another. These are my last thoughts on this:)

Brien, you are right on that matter. agreed. I was talking about the hinges and the doorframe which should support the weight of the door. two different things. Gonna enjoy the weather now, it's finally spring!

Ro wrote:

Gonna enjoy the weather now, it's finally spring!

Odd that we are so far apart geographically, but we have this in common ;)

Let the construction begin... I started building the door saturday morning, it was a beautiful day here in Ireland, 19 degrees, a great day to build a super door. I bought 10 second hand firedoors a few months back for €100 and I will be using one of these as the core for this super door... I purchased a piece of 24" x 24" x 3/4" glass and two pieces of 1/8" glass, I will be sandwiching them together to make up an 1" panel of glass. Total cost of glass was less than €30. I started by roughly cutting out the hole for the glass in the firedoor with a jig saw... Next was to router this rough cut to a percise edge leaving a 1/4" all around the perimeter for neoprene which will encase the glass...I set up a guide for the router bit and worked my way around the 4 edges. The router bit wasn't long enough to trim the whole debth of the door so i had to flip the door over to trim the remaining egde. I forgot to take photos of the next part of the build so I'll explain what I did. I wanted to recess the window stops so that they were flush with the sruface of the front of the door. I routered out the recess in the door and ripped 1/2" x 2" strips of MDF to glue and screw in the recess. The stops pertrude about a 1/2" all around the opening for the glass. hope this makes sence. Next i added 3/4" MDF to the back of the door, glued and screwed @ 8" centres. Again routered the edges to a percise finish... You can see in this photo the recessed window stop on the underside of the opening for the glass... I then fired up the bbq and had lots of meat for the remainder of the evening. After the sun went down I started to veneer the front of the door with 1/8" white oak veneer. I used contact adhesive and clamped in place over night. I will take photos of this tomorrow when I'm back @ work and I will document the remainder of the build... Any questions or advise is always welcome thanks - hally