Greetings Guys,
I have been lurking on here for months as my project kind of lingers in limbo due to me trying to map the best road forward. I am unfortunately not seeing a parallel project to my specific challenge.
The set up: I have a tiny and weird box of a basement space.
The crux of my question is, do I just finish out this space in a near traditional construction method [dense insulation and drywall, then adopt the approach to sound treatment for the "Bedroom" studio sample on John's sample plans, or do I do something slightly un-conventional, while I have the stud walls and ceiling open, and nothing set in stone?
I am a multi instrumentist, looking to set up a project studio. When I started this I was thinking: "cool, here's this unused space, I'll frame it in, throw a couple of shelves and racks in there to organize my pile of synths in an ideal manner and just be able to set up my laptop, a small console and some monitors so I can get recording." My wife and I currently share a 14x28 foot space that I am getting the big boot from. She's a prolific visual artist. I am a designer in my day job, but I play music about 2 hours a night.
Because a lot of the synths are recorded direct, and I use an attenuator most nights on my amp, I am pretty quiet. Adapt to life with a toddler anyone?
I like to get loud on the weekends, but spend most of my nights at modest volume. Been doing this for a few years, loud on weekends, with no complaints from the neighbors. Recording drums, louder guitars and screaming vocals are fine during the weekend days without me worrying too much about isolation.
I should also say that just outside this space is a large, half un-finished empty basement. There's things to compete with like the furnace, storage and laundry, but I am not limited in space to be able to set up drums, amps, etc… Be that as it may, the way the space is oriented/utilities running, traffic flow, this little nook is the best I could carve out.
So, for the details:
On slab: planning on basic floating strand woven bamboo on an underlayment, plus FLOR carpet tiles on top of that. Trying to keep as much ceiling height as possible.
7.5 foot ceilings [awesome!].
Front and left side wall are against solid concrete that I have framed a few inches in front of to compensate for a wobbly foundation pour.
The left side wall I intend to build two shelves to layout all my synths on. The more I think about things, the more I am thinking about making any furniture be fairly modular.
Right side wall is a partition that I can move [push by about 4 feet if it'd help the space, but I can't imagine how that would be the case]. Due to it's current construction, I think I am going to do a tear down and rebuild this wall asap [depending on feedback here].
To enter, there is a 5 foot wide opening between two chunky columns [30"x 24"] used to hide structural support and utilities. It is also only about 6'3" high to allow for duct work, and other utilities. These can easily become bass traps.
Parallel to the front wall, but around 20 feet away from it is a glass window.
Currently the space is all framed up 16" on center, 2x4's and wired for electrical. I actually passed inspections, and has been idling since.
I currently have some Mackie HR 824's…decent powered speakers. A friend may be selling a new iMac and RME ad converter in the next little bit that I hope to do recording on.
Last detail that I have no drawings of, because my software just crashed is what I was thinking about for the shelving system on the left wall to hold the synths. I have been planning on an irregular stack of salvaged wood. There's a few places here in oregon with incredibly cheap salvage, and I was imagining a base on the shelf on the left wall out of stacked wood, with some racks framed into it. Possibly the desk I am thinking about for the "front" of the space.
So, my questions are as follows:
Do I give up entirely, go back to my initial idea of a small room drywalled room filled with synths and buy some treatment and say to hell with it?
Is there a more sophisticated option for finishing this out that maybe leverages the fact that I haven't finished out the walls?
Should I rethink desk on "front wall" synths on left wall for something more effective acoustically?
Lastly, one of the other reasons this is open on one side, besides being an easier inspection to pass right now, is that we are working on a master plan for the whole house that will involve iterative steps in renovating…so if I could make a space that functions one way now, and can adapt in the future, that is also a win. I don't want to make that a functional requirement on the solution, however.
Really, I want to get this effer built so I can get making music again, and have sweet space to pursue recording…
Budget, i'd like to keep it in that around $1k sweet spot, but am flexible if there is a radical way for me to be thinking about it.
Right now as I figure it at it's most basic, just to do the job, flooring is going to run me $400, finishing the walls conventionally with drywall and heavy batting could run me $300, and treatment can easily run me $600-$700 depending on how much DIY I do. I work my ass off during the week, usually 60 hour + work weeks. Luckily a super talented contractor friend of mine is helping me out. Together I think we [he] can build anything. The current framing went in in a day. So, I guess a baseline budget is in the sub $1500 zone.
I apologize in advance for any murky thinking. Please let me know if I can clarify anything. I am about to try to post a basic drawing. I'll and post actual pictures tomorrow of the space and the pile of synths I am talking about…
Thanks again for your time. I thoroughly appreciate any thoughts the forum may have.
Finishing out a mini space, would love some advice...
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 17407.
"flooring is going to run me $400"
Save the $400 and buy a few area rugs if need be, this floating attempt gains you nothing but a pretty floor.
"My wife and I currently share a 14x28 foot space that I am getting the big boot from."
What does that mean...is this a rented space?
Thanks for the reply Brien!
Agreed on the flooring. I am looking at covering up asbestos tiles that are in "ok" shape. I'd just like to cover them to put my mind at ease. I am open to carpet, or even some new linoleum. As far as floating, I just meant it in the terms that the manufactures use when laying it over a concrete floor. I have no illusions about it having any acoustical effects at all. Just looking for something that will do ok sitting on top of the slab, below grade.
It's not rented. It's that my wife is kicking me out of that part of our space. :D She is a prolific professional artist, and I think each of our practices have out grown our shared space. She won though. It just means I get to spend what ever I need to to make a space for me.
Nothing like posting to a public forum to maybe force a new way of thinking...
Started wondering today about pushing the partitian wall out and re-orienting the studio, as you can see in the attached image below. Also started thinking about building the speakers into a soffit for this design...can you say scope creep?
The other image is of the all over floorplan of the basement, minus quite a bit of unfortunate utility routing. My wife's studio will proceed to take over the entire space to the left.
I should clarify that I see that dark blue box on the left as a synth station..
Lastly, I am open to spending more if it helps. Starting to think I may need to open my wallet more to make it a better/more useable space...
Thanks again for your time/thoughts.
I just realized the image below is slightly mislabled...those squarish volumes at the entry aren't 1.5 feet, they are 2' x 2.5'...
Hi "Hyphen", and welcome! :)
I guess that depens on what you mean by "unconventional" and "traditional"! Maybe you could explain better what you have in mind?The crux of my question is, do I just finish out this space in a near traditional construction method [dense insulation and drywall, then adopt the approach to sound treatment for the "Bedroom" studio sample on John's sample plans, or do I do something slightly un-conventional, while I have the stud walls and ceiling open, and nothing set in stone?
Like Brien said: Forget that. It wont do anything useful at all. Just stick with plain od bare concrete floor. Great surface, acoustically.On slab: planning on basic floating strand woven bamboo on an underlayment, plus FLOR carpet tiles on top of that. Trying to keep as much ceiling height as possible.
Not! :)7.5 foot ceilings [awesome!].
I can't imagine how that would NOT be the case for a home studio! :shock: Sound loves space. The more space you have, the better it sounds. a 7.5 foot ceiling is already bad enough, but limiting it even more with just 9 feet of width does not bode well... In other words, move whatever you can, as much as you can, to maximize the room volume.Right side wall is a partition that I can move [push by about 4 feet if it'd help the space, but I can't imagine how that would be the case].
Before we get to yours, here's mine: What is the purpose of this room? Is it a rehearsal space? A live room? A control room? An all-in-one room? Is this a commercial venture, or just a hobby? What type of music are we talking? Whey you say "drums", do you mean acoustic drums or do you mean electronic drums? How loud are you? How quiet do you have to be? etc.So, my questions are as follows:
Depends on what your goals are. What are they?Do I give up entirely, go back to my initial idea of a small room drywalled room filled with synths and buy some treatment and say to hell with it?
I'm sure there is, but we'll never know unless you tell us a whole lot more about the project! On your diagram, and in the photo, there are two "hollow" areas: What are those?Is there a more sophisticated option for finishing this out that maybe leverages the fact that I haven't finished out the walls?
Go with laminate flooring, on top of a suitable underlay.I am looking at covering up asbestos tiles that are in "ok" shape. I'd just like to cover them to put my mind at ease.
:shock: :!: I'm not! Not in a studio. At least, not in one that I want to have good acoustics....I am open to carpet,
Well, it cerainly will have an effect! It just won't be what you were hoping for, and won't be very pleasant...I have no illusions about it having any acoustical effects at all.
Soffits are HIGHLY recommendable... provided that your speakers re not rear-ported and do have a bass roll-off control.Also started thinking about building the speakers into a soffit for this design
Pick a number! Any number between ten and a hundred. Add three zeroes on the end. Multiply by a random date. Subtract one tenth of the number you first thought of. That's the accurate way of predicting how much it will cost to do this.... :) - Stuart -Starting to think I may need to open my wallet more to make it a better/more useable space...
First, thanks again for your time, I truly appreciate it...By traditional, I mean conventional home construction methods...drywall with some big box store "acoustic" insulation...by unconventional, while it is a little late for the few walls I've framed in to be inside out, do I start to look at a construction that is really and truly optimized for a control room-like space?Hi "Hyphen", and welcome! :)I guess that depens on what you mean by "unconventional" and "traditional"! Maybe you could explain better what you have in mind?The crux of my question is, do I just finish out this space in a near traditional construction method [dense insulation and drywall, then adopt the approach to sound treatment for the "Bedroom" studio sample on John's sample plans, or do I do something slightly un-conventional, while I have the stud walls and ceiling open, and nothing set in stone?
Cool thanks...I like your note later about laminate...probably something to that effect...Like Brien said: Forget that. It wont do anything useful at all. Just stick with plain od bare concrete floor. Great surface, acoustically.On slab: planning on basic floating strand woven bamboo on an underlayment, plus FLOR carpet tiles on top of that. Trying to keep as much ceiling height as possible.
Right? To make matters worse, I am apparently an idiot, because I just remeasured and the bottom of the floor joists above the studio is closer to 7 feet...Not! :)7.5 foot ceilings [awesome!].
Cool, not sure if you saw that updated sketch where I pushed the right side wall out a bit more, tried to get rid of parallel walls and imagined a soffit speaker set up? I need to read up on code for how close I can build next to a gas furnace, but, I think at a minimum I can push that wall by 4 feet, if not 5.I can't imagine how that would NOT be the case for a home studio! :shock: Sound loves space. The more space you have, the better it sounds. a 7.5 foot ceiling is already bad enough, but limiting it even more with just 9 feet of width does not bode well... In other words, move whatever you can, as much as you can, to maximize the room volume.Right side wall is a partition that I can move [push by about 4 feet if it'd help the space, but I can't imagine how that would be the case].
I am a designer, occasionally doing some supplemental sound design for some motion work, but to call this anything more than a hobby [recording mine and my friends projects] with larger dreams would be a lie...I think I'd call it a control room with some overlap with an "all-in-one" room....that overlap being the ability to play and record synths & guitars in the room itself. I primarily want to be able to compose and record using synths and guitar, supplemented by tracking other acoustic instruments on the weekends when I don't have to worry about volume. Those items can live anywhere in the rest of the basement. In the drawing in my second post. you can see that full basement, while awkward, has a lot of square footage. I don't have a db meter yet, so I can't tell you how loud specifically. After years of apartment dwelling followed by father hood, I predominantly play pretty quietly late at night. If I can get it so I can get a little louder, awesome, but not required. Right now, attenuated guitar amp below bedrooms is not waking anyone up at night.Before we get to yours, here's mine: What is the purpose of this room? Is it a rehearsal space? A live room? A control room? An all-in-one room? Is this a commercial venture, or just a hobby? What type of music are we talking? Whey you say "drums", do you mean acoustic drums or do you mean electronic drums? How loud are you? How quiet do you have to be? etc.So, my questions are as follows:
My goals as I can try to articulate them succinctly as possible are to: First, get the best room to to compose and record in [synths and guitars]. Secondarily, I'd like to have it be able to be able to be a control room if I was tracking acoustic instruments that I can't fit into this space yet. I FULLY acknowledge that I am going to get ungodly reflections on things like drums, etc, but I am thinking maybe I get gobo's to be able to use in the larger basement space until overall house master plan get's realized?Depends on what your goals are. What are they?Do I give up entirely, go back to my initial idea of a small room drywalled room filled with synths and buy some treatment and say to hell with it?
Sure, sorry about this, I am realizing I am going further and further into deeper waters...one thing I can tell you about myself is that I will delay gratification for as long as it takes to do it right..like I saved for 3 years to buy a synth kinda mentality...Please ask any questions that I seem to be not volunteering information needed. Be that as it may, I really would love to get a plan moving that is manageable in shorter timeframe...I'm sure there is, but we'll never know unless you tell us a whole lot more about the project!Is there a more sophisticated option for finishing this out that maybe leverages the fact that I haven't finished out the walls?
Right now, they are there to create a better entry under a low [hvac] entry way, as well as capture some oddness in the ducts and a support column..but as you see them, they are mostly empty volumes. I am wresting w/ Sketchup, and will hopefully have something soon-ish, for now I'll try and get a picture for you.On your diagram, and in the photo, there are two "hollow" areas: What are those?
Perfect, thanks.Go with laminate flooring, on top of a suitable underlay.I am looking at covering up asbestos tiles that are in "ok" shape. I'd just like to cover them to put my mind at ease.
....great, I was just reading up on this elsewhere on the forums. Great to know & counter intuitive.:shock: :!: I'm not! Not in a studio. At least, not in one that I want to have good acousticsI am open to carpet,
Nope, not rear ported and I'll go check to see if they have bass roll off, but I think they do.Soffits are HIGHLY recommendable... provided that your speakers re not rear-ported and do have a bass roll-off control.Also started thinking about building the speakers into a soffit for this design
LOL...this is my fear. While I am aiming to keep this in the $1k US for materials zone, I can definitely go up to $5k if needed, and just stretch the build out.Pick a number! Any number between ten and a hundred. Add three zeroes on the end. Multiply by a random date. Subtract one tenth of the number you first thought of. That's the accurate way of predicting how much it will cost to do this.... :)Starting to think I may need to open my wallet more to make it a better/more useable space...
seriously, thanks...I have been spinning my wheels trying to pull this all together. I appreciate you taking the time to help clarify/distill things with me. I'll go try and get a photo of those "Hollow" volumes...- Stuart -
From your description this is what is normally refered to as a "Project Studio". References to a control room are really a misnomer as there is nothing to be controlled. But this is just nomenclature...
You mention asbestos tiles - in most places people would want these removed - in fact in some places it is required to remove them and in a few places, the government may subsidize of certain percentage of the cost.
Concrete is very popular these days for studios, particularly having it stained. This staining technique is not yet very well known here in europe. Aside from this however is the point that concrete floors in a basement are considered not particularly healthy and people complain of backache and increased colds. I would suggest you look into Novilon or other linoleum type flooring. It is extremely economical and because of the incredibly wide range of styles (finishes, patterns, plus 3D finishings) will enhance any theme you have in mind for the room. This type of flooring retains the desired acoustic reflectivity, while adding a cushioning effect for your feet plus a thermal isolation from the cold concrete floor (many products are sufficiently thick on their own, others may require a underlay), and as a further advantage, offer a certain amount of inherent decoupling or buffering between furniture (incl. speaker/stands) and vibrations propagating through the concrete floor.
I was also a little curious about those "hollows" and whether they are removeable or alterable. I understand that one of them acts as a soffiting or rather casement around a pillar - albeit overkill (seen dimensionally). Also, the rather gigantic entrance way with the label "Open!!!!" almost as if to imply that this is a given and may not be changed (Horror of horrors...), tell me this isn't so.
Around here conventional approach to asbestos tile is that if it is not flaking/going airborne for any reason, just cover it. I bought the house two years ago, and the inspector just said, "cover it up if it makes you feel better". Unfortunately no government subsidies for removal, otherwise I would. I think an underlayment, plus what ever top surface [laminate, linoleum, etc] should be a pretty effective way of encapsulating any fiber.
As you can see from those pics, anything is alterable. I am only so far as a stud wall. Those "soffits" at the entryway are very much overkill. They were designed when I was approaching this as an aesthetic design challenge, not an acoustic. That being said, I like them.
Attached below is a TERRIBLE sketch-up drawing I was working on last night. The stud wall I am using in the model was supposed to be able to scale, and set studs 16 on center. Instead it just compressed, so please ignore stud placement. The main idea behind their design to make the fact that you have to walk right under some heavy duct work to get into he studio more interesting/part of a program.
Please recognize that while close to scale, I was having a hard time wresting angles and more precise moves on my laptop track pad when trying to make this thing...I really and truly see it as a rough sketch...
The "tan" box in the lower right corner is a furnace, and the two horizontals running from that are duct work.
the other tan solids are to represent concrete foundation. Yes, there is an odd concrete box form going out from the front of the foundation wall, that I still haven't figured out it's original purpose for the house.
One thing that gets stressed is electrical wire hi and acoustical wire low. Your electrical wire is essentially going to be running parrallel to your gear, and that is a potential 60Hz problem with unwanted noise in your sound chain.
What are the chances of, before you cover all this up, of re routing the electrical wire to be vertical in the stud bays?
If this is not an option, then you have to be aware that the potential is going to be there, especially the closer you move towards the wall with wire in it running horizontal.
Thanks Brien.
Absolutely I can move wiring if it is going to cause hum. Right now there is a circuit for power and a circuit for lighting. Given that I am strongly considering pushing that partition wall out to get another 45 or so SF of floor space, I figure what I have done so far may be a bit of wash electrically speaking.
I guess I am wondering about diminishing returns. What's my best investment when faced with a less than optimal space like this?
On one side there is proceeding with it as is, insulating the walls, two layers of drywall, call it a day...
On the other side, it's build speaker soffits [which seems pretty genius] and angled slat walls. I am intimidated as hell by the idea of slat walls [absorbtion vs resonators] but equally interested in it.
Is attempting to go do the best possible solution [if speaker soffits and slat walls even are that] going to be the best bang for the buck, or is there something part way there? Honestly, it's not entirely about money. I don't want to waste my friends' and my time, or money if it is just too flawed a space...
If folks think that by going with a slat wall and soffit mount speakers is going to actually make a somewhat useable space, I'd appreciate any recommendations for the best threads on here around slat wall? I've read the pages in John's manual. I am ultra clear on what and how the speaker soffit works. I am a lot less clear on the slat walls/absorption/diffusion...
Thanks again for everyone's time.
"On the other side, it's build speaker soffits [which seems pretty genius] and angled slat walls. I am intimidated as hell by the idea of slat walls [absorbtion vs resonators] but equally interested in it."
I wsould let this last part of the sentence be my guide. You are only two days into this idea, albeit some time has been spent in construction, and now you are re-thinking what you have done based on the correct information you are now gathering.
I would put the project on hold for 1 month...just four weeks. Get your ideas really together about how you want to proceed and with what as your goal(s).
It is always a lot of energy spent in the uphill battle to build anything, and many that come here are waffleing, like you are, since you have done work, you have spent money, you are now uncertain about your outcome.
Chill out, enjoy the ride, get the ideas, and make that design that fits that room, after you decide how much of that room you will commit to the project :)
Really, it's only time:)
Good advice.
I am not too deep in on what I have built right now....a couple hundred dollars in materials. Permits for electrical is the only part i'd be bummed to lose, but so be it.
I have been pressing on this, as this has in fact been idling, and my builder friend has another window of time coming up next weekend to help me make some progress. Prior to my initial post I'dbeen struggling with how to best "program" a 9x9 room which has caused my downward spiral into actually considering the acoustic properties of this space. :)
If anyone has any stellar threads or books for me to refer to further, I am open to all suggestions.
Thanks.
Ok, I think I made some progress thanks to being able to draft off of the sketchup files John had posted for small studios. See attached sketch.
I am curious about a few things. Right now I was looking at the back and right side wall as bass traps...to do this, I will be covering them with fabric. Does this actually run the risk of absorbing too much, and I should consider alternating sections of slats between studs?
When insulating a duct [as you can see, I am right up against some], I want to wrap it insulation, and keep the it isolated from framing and drywall, correct?
Thanks again,
-D
Why would you lose it...the permit should be good for at least 6 months.Good advice. I am not too deep in on what I have built right now....a couple hundred dollars in materials. Permits for electrical is the only part i'd be bummed to lose, but so be it.
And this is exactly why you have to slow down. You already have a hard boundary of 9'X9' and a square is not good acoustically, even if you stik all the treatments in there, the double parallel walls will still have a sonic signature. Where you have those hollow parts, the symmetry you developed for an existing column, you should steal as much of that hollow framing and regain it back into the room.to best "program" a 9x9 room:)
Ignoring all other challenges [ducts, what is currently constructed, slat wall, bass traps, electrical drops, etc] how does something like this start to look?
It should be fairly obvious, but dark blue is desk/racks/tabletop for synths...
Oh, I'd lose my permit, because in it's current state, I've actually passed "finish" inspection...like, throw on drywall, and call it a day...
You have passed rough in inspection on your electrical, and that would be it since you do not actually pass anything until you get either a final or an CO.
A permit price is not that big a cost compared to how much a build costs.
Greetings!
While this thread has been quiet, it doesn't mean no work has been going on. Quite he opposite. So far, cold air returns have been re-routed, and quite a bit of demo [as in all the initial framing taken out] has been done. This has resulted in a space that is roughly 9.5 feet, by 14.5 feet long.
I have a few questions.
1: I am planning on hanging the ceiling first, 3" of roxul, hat channel, double sheet rock and green glue. The ceiling will go all the way to the concrete walls [left and top of the crude sketch below] that are on two sides of the space and will be caulked to. This should give be the place to start for optimal isolation, correct?
2: So long as the studio's exterior walls are a double layer of drywall and caulking all the way to the ceiling, I should have isolated the space, correct? Three layers of drywall?
2b: the reason I am asking the above is due to the fact that I am wondering about not putting an interior sheet of drywall in at all, but creating a single leaf wall, with slatwalls and traps for interior studio walls. See the supremely rough drawing below for more clarity. If I am going to get better isolation by drywalling and caulking the studio interior wall and then building angled traps and slatwalls for the inside, no biggie.
3: this is the trick question. In the lower portion of the drawing imagine a duct running that I really can't move. Does it make sense to build a heavy soffit around that and gain about another foot and a half of width to the studio? making it more like 11'x14.5' space with a 12" x18" soffit cutting in to the room? Really haven't been planning on this, but it recently cross my mind while remeasuring for the 100th time..
As always, thanks for your time.
in the off chance anyone is following this. much progress has been made, and good progress I'd say.
I have a decoupled ceiling, using isoclips and hat channel. 4" of roxul, two layers of drywall, green glue in between...I seem to be using a lot of green glue...Calked the hell out of this this past week.
We just cut and laid out the sill plates and caps today. It is definitely going to be a small space. :D
For kicks, I clapped, and then just threw some stacks of roxul in the corner [two concrete walls] and clapped again. I think this should work really well. Roxul works great! My plan is to finish the entire thing with fabric, and then determine just if I want to put slats up, and just how many...starting to think that given the crappy head clearance, and sliding glass door as much absorption as possible might be a good thing.
One quick question about sliding glass door. My builder is a fan of triple pane for sound isolation...does this create a 3 leaf problem? I am thinking about a curtain if the glass becomes and issue.
As we had modified the plan from the sketch up above, by bringing it in a few inches to avoid the duct work, hitting just the right speaker angle was a royal pain in the ass, as you can see in the middle image...ended up hitting 52º which seems right for this space.
A few pics...
That would be me! :) I'm following but not replying, since you seem to be doing fine! It's good to see progress, and the place is coming together.in the off chance anyone is following this.
Yes it does! 3-leaf for sure. And because the leaves are relatively low mass (as compared to the walls), and the air gaps are very thin, that puts the resonant frequencies right where you don't want them: the lows and lo mids. Proper acoustic sliding doors are tough, heavy, and have a single pane of thick laminate glass, as well as excellent seals all around. Two doors like that with an air gap between them will give you pretty decent isolation. Those doors a rather different from the cheap things with double and triple glazing that you pick up in hardware stores.One quick question about sliding glass door. My builder is a fan of triple pane for sound isolation...does this create a 3 leaf problem?
Do you mean that each speaker is toed in 52°, or that the axis intersect angle is 52°? If you mean the axis intersect, then that's fine (implying each speaker is toed in 26°). But if you toed in your speakers 52°, that's rather excessive and will give you a very tiny, squashed sweet spot with an unnaturally broad sound stage. It will sound more like two mono speakers than a proper stereo system. - Stuart -ended up hitting 52º which seems right for this space.
Wow, thanks!!! ok...note to self: address door asap...I wanted to maximize natural light coming in...I'll need to come up with a new plan for this, or look for an acoustic sliding door... It's safe to assume a decent exterior slider won't work, or were you saying that I don't want a triple pane slider? I think you were saying that two sliding patio doors will work, with an airlock, right?Yes it does! 3-leaf for sure. And because the leaves are relatively low mass (as compared to the walls), and the air gaps are very thin, that puts the resonant frequencies right where you don't want them: the lows and lo mids.One quick question about sliding glass door. My builder is a fan of triple pane for sound isolation...does this create a 3 leaf problem?
Ok, I think I am following you, but bear with me, as I am definitely not confident in this arena...axis intersect is where I'd be sitting correct? The point where the axis coming off of each speaker crosses? How I'd been working this out was [and I am a visual person], if the front wall is a straight line, and instead of setting the speakers at a 45 to that line, I flattened it out to 52º to aim for a position roughly 1/3 of the distance back in the room...does this make sense? Right now I pretty much have an isosceles triangle of roughly 5' 6" between each speaker and where I am sitting...I'll attach a picture down below to demonstrate...Given that my head almost exploded earlier today when working this out/arguing with my friend who is volunteering his time, I'd appreciate another set of eyes on it for sure! insert phone camera apologies...Do you mean that each speaker is toed in 52°, or that the axis intersect angle is 52°? If you mean the axis intersect, then that's fine (implying each speaker is toed in 26°). But if you toed in your speakers 52°, that's rather excessive and will give you a very tiny, squashed sweet spot with an unnaturally broad sound stage. It will sound more like two mono speakers than a proper stereo system. - Stuart -ended up hitting 52º which seems right for this space.
Exactly: A pair of sliding doors separated by a gap of about 4 inches or more, will give you reasonable isolation. The issue with the triple-pane slider is the high resonant frequency and low isolation in low frequencies (three-leaf). If you just wanted to stop ordinary speech and office sounds, then the triple glazing would work fine, since those sounds are mostly in the middle area of the audios spectrum, with very little energy in the low end. But music is different: lots of energy in lows, particularly in drums, bass guitars, keyboards, etc. Two glass sliding doors with a gap between work in exactly the same way as your two-leaf wall around the room: they make a tuned MSM system. In fact, when done properly, the doors are actually PART of the same MSM system as the walls. So the idea is to choose glass that gives you the same surface density (kg/m2 or lbs/ft2) as the rest of the wall. Since glass is about 3 to 4 times as dense as drywall, you need glass that is about one third the thickness of the leaf. So for example, if you have two layers of 5/8" drywall for your leaf, then your glass should be 3/8" or 1/2". That will maintain the same density across the entire surface of the wall, including the glass. But glass that thick in large panes, is very expensive. It's also very heavy, meaning that the frames, rollers, tracks and everything else about the door must be heavy duty, which increase the cost even more. If you don't mind the cost, then that's fine! But if you do mind the cost, then maybe building your own hinged doors with glass in them would be a much less expensive proposition. If you think about it, the opening offered by a sliding glass door is not really much bigger than the opening of an ordinary hinged door, since one pane slides in front of the other. When fully open, you have about the same amount of space. So sliding glass doors don't offer bigger openings. They do offer a lot more light, though. But if you did ordinary hinged doors but only put glass in the top half, and then put a fixed window next to it, also with glass only in the top half, you'd save a huge amount on glass and still get a good view outside, and good light. Finally, seals are an issue. Sliding door seals are more likely to give you problems in the future than the seals around hinged doors, especially if they just rub along the door as it is being opened and closed, instead of being held out of the way by a mechanism that only seals when the door is fully closed. But then you have that mechanism to think about.... I'm, not trying to convince you to dump the idea of sliders! John uses them all the time in his designs, and they work great. But the type he uses are the best quality, and most expensive. So that gets back to the money issue: if you don't mind splurged several grand for a pair of good sliding glass doors, then go for it! I'm just pointing out some issues that you should keep in mind when selecting the doors.It's safe to assume a decent exterior slider won't work, or were you saying that I don't want a triple pane slider? I think you were saying that two sliding patio doors will work, with an airlock, right?
Exactly. The acoustic axis of the speaker is the imaginary line that pokes out perpendicular to the front panel, at the spot where the sound appears to come from, after the separate tweeter and woofer sounds have merged. That spot is sometimes shown by the manufacturer in the manuals for the speaker, or they might be able to tell you if you call and ask. If not, then imagine another line joining the center of the woofer with the center of the tweeter: the axis will start on that line, much closer to the tweeter than the woofer. So pick a spot around 75% along that line, and you won't be far off. That's where the acoustical center of the speaker is, and where the acoustic axis starts. So if you imagine a line coming out of the speaker at that point, and projecting back towards you, that line should just graze your ears, then continue on backwards, and meet it's mate from the other speaker a few inches behind your head. It's the angle between those two that I'm talking about as the "intersect angle". If that angle is around 52°, then you are fine. (That implies that the speakers are angled in at 26°, which is a little low, but nothing to worry about). The optimum intersect angle is often quotes as being 60° (meaning the speakers are angled inwards at 30°, or 4° more than yours), and you can even go as high as 90° (the speakers would be angled at 45° in that case) but that's the limit. Beyond 90° intersect (45° toe-in) the image starts to break apart, since the speakers are now basically spread wider than any sound source in nature: Your head itself is creating a "shadow" that prevents the left speaker being heard by the right ear, and vice versa, so each ear is basically only hearing the speaker on that side: there is not much stereo image or sound stage like that. That's why I was concerned when you said you had angled them 52°, and from the photo I couldn't figure out which was the front wall and which was the side wall! What you show in your second photo is fine. That is a 26° toe-in, or 52° intersect, so that's OK. Your sweet spot will be a bit narrower (side to side) but also longer (front to back) than the "standard" setup at 30° toe-in (60° intercept), but that's fine, as long as you are aware of it. Your sound stage will also be slightly "squashed", so you'll have a sub-conscious tendency to pan things more than they need to be, but the effect will be very slight, so don't sweat it!Ok, I think I am following you, but bear with me, as I am definitely not confident in this arena...axis intersect is where I'd be sitting correct? The point where the axis coming off of each speaker crosses?
Yep! :)does this make sense?
Once again, you'll often see people saying that the "perfect" location is 38% of room depth (front to back), but that's theoretical "perfection" (whatever that means!), so don't go crazy tearing walls down to try to get your ears at 38%! It's just a guideline. The important thing is to stay away from really bad places in the room, such as 25% and 50%, and get close to 38%, so your plan is fine. But just to clarify, it is your EARS that we are talking about now, not the intersect: your ears should not be at 25% or 50%, and should be in the general rough ball park of 38%. But like I said; don't go crazy here! In a small room, even moving your head forward or back a bit to reach a fader, or get more comfortable in your chair, is going to move your ears several percentage points. If the room is 10 feet long (for example) then leaning back or forwards just 6" each way moves your head by ten percent of the room depth! So trying to finesse things down to the last 1/64" is pointless. Just get in the ball park. And many engineers actually seem to prefer to be a bit closer to the front wall that theory predicts. Hope I'm helping and not confusing you even more! - Stuart -to aim for a position roughly 1/3 of the distance back in the room...
Stuart, you rock. If you were here in Portland, I'd take you out for beer right now.
Thank you so much for the taking the time to answer my questions in detail. I more than appreciate it, and it's just what I needed.
I'll keep you posted on how the door resolves...There is oddly enough a 5'x5'x10" studio window for sale at one of the local recording supply places here in town...it's used, but they still want a grand for it...
It might be this, plus a hinged door option...though 5x5 may actually be too big for my micro space...
Thank you again for taking the time to help clarify things for me.
Nice work getting things going. Just wanted to compliment you on your synths and especially the Sherman filterbank 8)
Thanks Stuart, sorry for the delayed reply. My job has had me working 17+ hour days for the last month...zero progress on space, zero checking in here... Synths are what brought me into the whole land of recording and production. Before them, I was always just content to play a guitar...Filterbank is insane. I've had to put a compressor/limiter after it to avoid destroying my ears or speakers, but it is an insanely cool tool.Nice work getting things going. Just wanted to compliment you on your synths and especially the Sherman filterbank 8)
So, progress is being made...slowly, as it is a one person job, but the exterior drywall on RC channels with green glue is almost all up except for one small area by the door. I over ordered drywall and pretty much have the room, so I may go with 3 layers of 1/2" drywall. I've got a layer of insulation in as well. Definitely starting to feel like a real space.
My biggest question right now is that I have a flutter echo happening between my floor and ceiling. If I clap I definitely get a ring, and those are the only two parallel surfaces.
What's the best approach for this? Diffusers? Should I put absorption up there [I have a ton of 1/2" 703 panels taken from an old conference room at my office] or something else? I haven't put the laminate floor in yet, but I can't imagine that is going to cause all that much of a difference.
Any thoughts would be appreciated. In a weird way, while I know it is an unfortunate challenge to have to deal with, it's rad knowing that most of this project is following best practices. Because of that it seems like something that can be identified and solved for.
Thanks in advance for your time.
Absorption on the ceiling should take care of that. Or maybe an angled, hard-backed cloud. Definitely not diffusion: the room is too small for most types of diffusion anyway, and especially not on the ceiling, where it would only be a couple of feet from your ears. - Stuart -My biggest question right now is that I have a flutter echo happening between my floor and ceiling.