please evaluate my plan

Ok so I have drawn up a diagram of my room which will be used for both recording and mixing/ monitoring and the treatment plan I am thinking of. It is a basement bedroom with carpeted floor (concrete underneath) and removable drop down light tiles overhead on the ceiling that rattle allot with bass. The walls are painted drywall and the one wall you will see (length) is slightly shorted in one part by 10 inched by a part that juts out. That wall also has a cubbyhole wood door and a closet door. My main concern is the effect that the jutting out area will have on reflections, perhaps it may not make much of a difference if does not intercept the angle of 1st reflection, I don’t know... My plan so far is as follows: - Monitor facing the shortest wall - Foam panels on either side in relation to angle of 1st reflection (using the mirror trick) - Bass traps in the corners behind the monitors - Foam panel behind the monitors I am on a bit of a budget so I have tried to think about what should be the most critical treatments however please provide any suggestions you have in terms of further treatment (should the corners behind me also have bass traps, how about a foam panel behind?) and monitor placement, perhaps I should face the wall with the door instead? Any help would be much appreciated!

I guess, for me, yeah, do everything you are thinking. And then when it doesn't work as you think, start looking into why that is. Things like, well, anything that is even close to the human ear that has potential to reflect, deflect or diffuse sound has to be taken into consideration at first glance. "My main concern is the effect that the jutting out area will have on reflections, perhaps it may not make much of a difference if does not intercept the angle of 1st reflection," Intercept it will, and intercept it does. It presents an acoustical issue. This next picture is not to scale :)

xSpace wrote:

I guess, for me, yeah, do everything you are thinking. And then when it doesn't work as you think, start looking into why that is.

Ok.... so are you implying that you think that this is not going to work? I also dont get the "angled side walls" you put in there? Really man, I see that you are a "moderator" but you gave a sarcastic answer to the first question I asked a while back, and I feel like this latest response was not really an answer and more of a bunch of words and scribbles....

Not sure why you feel Brien was coming down on you, I think he gave you a lot of clear and consise info. It's just that many think they can hang a few panels and everything will be rosy, this is not the case. At the beginning of the post post you mentioned this was a bedroom but not whether it must continue to function as one in which case you will need to accept the tradeoffs and concessions depending on your priorities. You also mention carpet which a little perusal of the forum would tell you that this is not ideal. You also mention problems with the ceiling. Your plan ignores the existing problems, and the tone of the post indicates a lack of interest in understanding what you're trying to accomplish. The "Angled sidewalls" should be obvious in regard to the comment about reflections you will experience and again checking out (searching) key posts in the forum would make this clear. You give your room dimensions but refrain from calculating the modal issues you can expect to be dealing with. Here's some food for thought: I believe it was Bob Hodas who said that every room has a sweet spot, the trick is to find it. Sweet spot doesn't mean a spot where the acoustics are perfect, but rathe where they are optimal for that particular room. This spot can also be in a very impractical location. The questions you've asked can't really be answered directly. Your speakers on the short wall firing down the length of the room is the standard guideline i.e. what most people would first suggest, but it doesn't mean it's best. Placing your speakers on the long wall might work better in this room. The point is, try every orientation and pick the best. You might also need to consider a cloud and whether this too should be angled.

zardoz wrote:

... and I feel like this latest response was not really an answer and more of a bunch of words and scribbles....

I am not implying, I am saying directly using the coarse drawing I had to work with, that to even out the response in that particular listening position, you would be better served by installing the angled walls, possibly like what John Sayers uses in much detail here on his forum, to add the much needed symmetry that you are currently missing. If you can find it in your heart to forgive my jab, the jab was at that drawing, which clearly does not belong in an area that is often so confusing to the neophyte that they miss the forest for the trees and then they stumble by thinking that a simple drawing will tell their story. Which it often does, but no one wants to be shown that there is the often missed opportunity for improvement since usually days have gone by in the learning curve, and folks just "get it" as best as they can because they want to move on and build and play music....which is what I thought people came here for to begin with. Brian suggested using the long wall, which is an option that you could look at with no changes in the footprint of the room since it is uncluttered with deformations in wall assemblies, e.g. no notches or protrusions. You have, sir, the basic premiss of trapping the corners and first reflection points and also a soft area directly in front of the listening position. But the ten inch area that opens up the right-hand side of the listening position can not be overlooked since it will, in fact, present an unsymmetrical listening position. We also do not quote jobs based on foam but more on known acoustical treatments aimed at specific frequency issues typically made of insulation of one sort or the other, covered in cloth, etc. Hopefully you will receive this post with more acceptance that there is the oft chance that you are close to what you want, but you still have a fair amount of work in order to truly exploit this room for all that it may or may not be worth.

Thanks for you responses. I am sorry if I mistook what I thought was snobbishness on your part. Its just that when the main brunt of your response to my first question about the most important budget adaptations I could make to kill flutter was "dude, you cannot ask a question like this and expect an answer", its hard to take things any other way. Im sure if someone approached you with a question in real life you would get an interesting response from saying something like that. anyways.... I guess I should be more clear about my goals here. I am really not trying to take this to the point of building new walls or anything of that nature. I am doing this in the similar type of guerilla manner that you see with many electronic musicians (who often have no treatment in their room other than a stack of records at the back...) and still turn out cool mixes, in fact with the sort of experimental music I am into I often hear the flutters in their rooms with hand claps and their percussion. All of this is not only excepted but also tends to add to the character of the sound in the end, as does the over boosting of bass I have heard on some albums. (see artists like burial, flying lotus, baths and animal collective to see what Im talking about. Basically what I am asking for are the bare essentials when it comes to improving room treatment. The top 3 or 5 tips you would give to anyone who is trying to make the best with what they have From what I have gathered from reading a few books on mixing and watching the studio rescue youtube series as well as reading a bit on sound on sound in the sos studio section (which deal with makeshift one room setups like mine), there seems to be a few common main adaptations, which I am trying to make. - position setup along the lenght of the room (which I have done) *however as BiHar mentioned, this may not in fact be ideal (I will have to look into this though since I have yet to see an instance where this adaptation has not been made by a professional during one of the "interventions" on youtube or in SOS - side panels to catch angle of 1st reflection - Bass traps in the corners behind the monitors. (everything in SOS and on the studio intervention series has suggested the great importance in this) - perhaps some foam treatment behind the monitors. Please I cannot stress enough that going to great lengths to achieve a perfect room and creating "hi fi" sounding music is absolutely out of my interests. What I was hoping to gain from posting on this forum is a few words from people experienced in acoustic treatment about what that bare essential, most crucial areas of treatment would be.... and perhaps a few tips on how one with my setup would best go about recording stuff through my amp and my little percussion devices (shakers etc), just a few hints like "the amp is generally best facing towards the inside of the room" or something along those lines. Im not looking for any quote on anything so if this forum is intended for possible buyers only please let me know and I will be off as that will most likely not be me. With that being said, as I stated a few top 5's in terms of basic treatment and equiptment positions would be really cool. Thanks

Your questions have already been answered...and I might add "to kill flutter was "dude, you cannot ask a question like this and expect an answer", was taken from another post most likely answered by myself, since these words do not appear in this thread until you mentioned them. "Basically what I am asking for are the bare essentials when it comes to improving room treatment." Did that already as well. You have to understand that there are simple things that can modify a rooms acoustical response, and Brian and I have mentioned all of them as they apply to your room. Sure, we can throw more money at it...but that hasn't even come up in conversation. Or we can spend weeks on how to modify the room, there again, money is always an issue, it's your money, and the issue is we have no idea how much of it you are willing to part with. Bottom line, we need more details, you have to know that there will be limitations from any environment and we need more details :) "I am doing this in the similar type of guerilla manner that you see with many electronic musicians (who often have no treatment in their room other than a stack of records at the back...) and still turn out cool mixes, in fact with the sort of experimental music I am into I often hear the flutters in their rooms with hand claps and their percussion. All of this is not only excepted but also tends to add to the character of the sound in the end, as does the over boosting of bass I have heard on some albums. (see artists like burial, flying lotus, baths and animal collective to see what Im talking about. " Man, I am not familiar with that, no treatment...and still turn out good mixes...just does not translate in the world of acoustics. I understand being strapped for cash. Matter of fact, what you think you hear on a commercially produced recording is not what it is. the tracking room has one type of configuration and given the right amount of volume, has a different reverb time, versus a small room. The mixing room has to be different in respect to the tracking room, to be able to actually hear what was going on in the tracking room, not to color the recording with the potential of same room type acoustics. Directly to the over boosting of bass...that is most likely a limiter...the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war , or accentuation of bass...it's not a product of anything other than how you listen to your music...

Thanks for your time and responses. Im afraid that I may have come to the wrong place. I keep getting the feeling that this forum is designed for potential customers or perhapes people intending on building some sort of large budget multiple studio and that the concerns of an aspiring electronic producer such as myself may not be getting across. Perhaps to aid in dealing with further folks such as myself who happen to stumble in hoping for a few quick tips on room treatment, who are more interested in the guerilla semi electronic path please just take a look at the home setups that can be seen in the following in studio interviews of these artists. I am guessing that you are have little to no knowledge of this type of music but I can tell you that this is and will continue to be the increasing trend in new musicians who wish to make stuff that pushes the envelope in terms of creativity and musicality. All the artists shown are responsible for all performance, recording, sampling, and mixing and most likely it is all done in these rooms (aside from mastering). In all of these I cannot see one shred of evidence of "proper treatment", angled walls, or even foam tiles, which leads me to suggest that these people have somehow made the best of their situation by 1 becoming farmiliar with their monitors and positioning them as good as possible CAribou www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B0p6DVoNgk four tet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgJVXDZBhJM flying lotus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QtkgFTFJtY animal collective/ panda bear http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lg0i9 ... o1_500.jpg ceephax acid crew: http://www.brainchops.net/2011/03/ceeph ... dence.html squarepusher http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnLsxCbF ... re=related james holden http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_S52U93O ... re=related

Well, I looked at all the links you posted, but it doesn't change the issue. And I will add one thing, not one room I saw had a 10 inch jutting wall at the right hand side of the listening position, like yours has. But I will entertain your desires...and then explain why they are not as you think they are. Electronic music (midi or in the box) doesn't require anything but headphones to get a potential good mix. But in the end, if someone is going to attempt to or foot the bill for a release, it is all going to be pushed into a better recording environment. Point in case, now you may not be old enough to know who the American group from the 70's, Boston is, but Tom Sholtz did all the work in a basement for their first ground breaking vinyl album. As good as it was, it was still taken to California and re-recorded in a "real" studio to get the sound across. What you see are rooms that folks use to "scratch pad" music in. But if you want to by-pass the acoustic curve, then you will most likely by-pass the learning curve of your instrument of choice, and think that just because you think it sounds good...it must be good. You want a better room, this is the place for professionals who want that same thing and we each and every one involved try harder every day to understand what it is that we are doing, and try to get better. If you want easy...my friend, it is not easy until after a few years :) and even then there is so much that can go wrong. Let us know when you have some music out, I would like to hear the results....

Hi Zardoz. Welcome! (Better late than never...) I'm sorry you feel that this is a place for customers or trying to sell you something, since nothing could be further from the truth. Unlike many other acoustic places on the internet, nobody here is trying to sell you anything at all! In fact, there are people here from some major acoustic companies who are just here to help, and who never try to promote their own products. This place is a forum for people who are serious about learning how to design and build their own studios, period. Not about sales. If you want John or someone else to design it for you, then contact them off-line, privately, not here on the forum, because the forum is free. No cost. Available to everyone who wants to learn. But at the same time, it's not a place where anyone is going to design your entire studio for you for free! It's a place where YOU can learn how to do it yourself. There's actually a huge amount of information to help you do that, and folks here will be more than happy to help you if you get stuck, but really this is intended to be a "self-help" place. Having said that, there are several problems with your room that have already been pointed out to you, but let's recap and see if we can figure out some solutions: First, the floor: "It is a basement bedroom with carpeted floor" Carpet is not a good idea on studio floors. It is randomly selective absorption that does the exact opposite of what you need, so my first suggestion would be to take out the carpet and just use the bare concrete, as that's a great surface, acoustically. If it isn't in good shape, or you don't like the idea of concrete, then lay laminate flooring. How many pro studios have you seen with carpet on the floor? There's a reason for that.... Second is the ceiling "removable drop down light tiles overhead on the ceiling that rattle allot with bass": they have to go. No use at all, and you can never work successfully in an environment like that! Even if they are called "acoustic tiles", they are not doing much useful for the acoustics of your room: Get rid of them, take out the framework too, and use the extra ceiling space for proper acoustic treatment (we'll get to that). The next issue is symmetry: You don't have any. You need perfect symmetry in a control room, and your current layout shows that you have a 10" 'kink' on one side :!: :shock: That is hopeless. You will never be able to get a tight stereo image, nor a decent soundstage, nor even similar EQ or RT response. Your mixes will never translate well, as there are two different acoustic spaces, one on each side of your head. Until you can get the studio symmetrical, you don't even have a studio: you just have a room with speakers in it. It does not matter how well you treat the room, how many bass traps or clouds you put in, it will never work as a studio until you have symmetry. That should be your number one priority. Brien gave you great advice about an easy way to fix that: build splayed walls. That's the simplest, cheapest way to do what needs to be done. Another alternative is to get rid of whatever that 10" kink is hiding, and make the room into a rectangle. That would work very well too, but is going to be expensive, and may not even be possible, depending on the reason why the kink is there in the first place! A third solution would be to build a wall that continues the "kink" at least a couple more feet back behind you, so you at least get symmetry in the front half of the room. That's it: there are no more options. You have to solve that "kink" issue if you hope to have a usable studio.

My main concern is the effect that the jutting out area will have on reflections, perhaps it may not make much of a difference if does not intercept the angle of 1st reflection, I don’t know...

It's a biggie, for sure, and it has nothing to do with first reflections. It is about having identical acoustic spaces on each side of your head, with the same angles, path length, depth, materials, Eq, etc. It makes a huge difference. It makes your room unusable. It needs to be fixed, and it cannot be fixed with acoustic treatment. OK, on to your diagrams: Your basic layout is fine: The speakers should indeed be set up roughly like that, but using an equilateral triangle, with the speakers at two vertices and your head at the third. In a room that small, the speakers will most likely need to go right up against the front wall, not spaced away form it as you show them, and you will then need to adjust the bass roll-off accordingly. Put the speakers on very heavy, massive stands, and put an absorbent panel behind each one, not just one panel in the middle. You also mention "foam", but you don't say what type. Most types of common foam are useless for acoustics. Packing foam, mattress foam, upholstery foam, and things like that have no acoustic value. If you want to use foam, then ONLY buy it from a reputable acoustic company that publishes all the test data about their products. Do not get it from one of the typical "foam by mail" places. But proper acoustic foam is expensive. Much better is to use common building materials, such as mineral wool or fiberglass insulation (provided that you buy the correct density). Get a dozen panels of OC-703, and that will make quite a difference to your room (after you fix the kink, that is: installing treatment before you fix the kink is pointless). Now for some of your comments:

Basically what I am asking for are the bare essentials when it comes to improving room treatment.

The thing is, NO amount of treatment is going to make your room usable, until you fix that kink. That's what Brian and Brien have been trying to tell you. It's like if you take your car to the mechanic, and tell him that it's not running smoothly, so please change the oil and put in new spark plugs. But when the mechanic looks under the hood, he notices that you only have half an engine in there, and even that half is missing a piston and camshaft! Then you insist that all you want is an oil change and new plugs.... That's the type of issue we are look at here: you can change all the oil you want, and fit the best plugs in the world, but until you put the rest of the engine in, it just wont work.

The top 3 or 5 tips you would give to anyone who is trying to make the best with what they have From what I have gathered from reading a few books on mixing and watching the studio rescue youtube series as well as reading a bit on sound on sound in the sos studio section (which deal with makeshift one room setups like mine), there seems to be a few common main adaptations, which I am trying to make.

Yes, and the ones you are trying to make actually would work... if you didn't have a huge 10" kink killing your room! That's what you don't seem to be understanding here. Your room probably can work well as a home studio, provided that you solve the problem with the kink. Brien suggested installing splayed walls, which would work fine. Brian suggested trying a different layout, with the speakers firing across the room. That might work too. But what will NOT work is trying to treat the room with that current layout.

- position setup along the lenght of the room (which I have done) *however as BiHar mentioned, this may not in fact be ideal (I will have to look into this though since I have yet to see an instance where this adaptation has not been made by a professional during one of the "interventions" on youtube or in SOS

Well, sorry to say, but if I were to build studios based on most of the stuff I see on YouTube, I'd be out of business in about five minutes! That's something else that is different about this forum: we take the SCIENCE of acoustics seriously here. We bother to check the research, read the lab reports, look at the spec sheets, and use the laws of physics. We don't fall for myth, hearsay, snake-oil, or marketing hype, which you find all over YouTube. Rather, we just tell you about what works from the point of view of acoustic fact, not from the point of view of what somebody once overheard in a crowded bus, or something that an eager ignorant idiot with a video camera and a YouTube account happened to post.

- side panels to catch angle of 1st reflection

Yes, you need those, but yours are not in the right position, in your sketches. The panels need to go at the first reflection points, which will always be in FRONT of your ears, not in line with them. You also need a cloud, to handle the one above you....

- Bass traps in the corners behind the monitors. (everything in SOS and on the studio intervention series has suggested the great importance in this)

Bass traps are indeed important. VERY important. But the best place to put the first pair is in the REAR vertical corners of the room, then the next pair (if your budget stretches that far) in the front vertical corners, then in as many of the other eight room corners as you can treat. But you also need absorption in other places, such as the entire rear wall for a small room like that.

- perhaps some foam treatment behind the monitors.

Drop the "perhaps" and put in "most definitely", and I'll agree! :)

What I was hoping to gain from posting on this forum is a few words from people experienced in acoustic treatment about what that bare essential, most crucial areas of treatment would be....

And that's what people here have been telling you! The most crucial area in YOUR case is fixing that kink: until you do that, nothing else matters. Not bass traps, not clouds, not speaker angles, not first reflection points... none of that is important, until you fix the big issue. You have the proverbial 800 pound gorilla sitting in your room, and you are ignoring him, pretending he's not a problem... He is!

Im not looking for any quote on anything so if this forum is intended for possible buyers only please let me know and I will be off as that will most likely not be me.

Not at all! It's meant for people who want to learn this stuff, and use it to make usable rooms. I didn't notice anyone trying to sell you anything, but I did notice folks giving you good advice that you didn't like.

With that being said, as I stated a few top 5's in terms of basic treatment and equiptment positions would be really cool.

OK, top five basic treatment steps for YOUR room: 1) Fix the kink, so that the front half of the room is perfectly symmetrical. This can either be by building side walls, or perhaps by re-arranging the layout, but I'm not convinced that there is any feasible layout without fixing the kink. 2) Get rid of the carpet and ceiling tiles. 3) Treat the rear of the room: Put large bass traps diagonally across both rear corners, floor to ceiling and at least 36" wide, and also at least 4" of OC-703 or similar across the rest of the rear wall, spaced away at least 4". 4) Get your speakers organized: mount them on very heavy, massive speaker stands, 1.2m above the floor, right up against the front wall, and adjust the bass roll-off accordingly (somewhere between -3 dB and -6 dB). Also, angle them correctly using the common equilateral triangle method, and decouple them from the stands. 5) Put thick absorption on all of your first reflection points, including the ceiling. Put it this way: if that were my room, and all I had was a couple of hundred dollars, that's what I would do. I can't give you better advice than what I'd do if it were my own room!

I am guessing that you are have little to no knowledge of this type of music

:shock: :roll: :D :!: :shot: You guess rather wrong, I think! :)

and most likely it is all done in these rooms

Like Brien said: no it isn't. They prepare their rough initial mixes, demos, and reference tracks there, then they go to real studios to be recorded, mixed and mastered properly by professional engineers. The music industry is a cut-throat, dog-eat-dog world, and there's about a gazillion artists out there who all think they are they next Elvis, Beatles, or Pink Floyd, and who think they can mix the Worlds Next Greatest Hit Album in their bedroom on a ten dollar mic and five dollar headphones. None of them ever get anywhere. Those who do get somewhere have places like those you mention, but understand that mixes done solely in places like that by amateurs are unlikely to make it onto the charts. In fact, they are unlikely to even get noticed! The ones who get ahead and get noticed are the ones who use places like that to play around while writing their songs, hash out their demos and produce rough reference tracks, period. That's what they are good for. Not for serious tracking, not for serious mixing, and most definitely not for mastering! It would be impossible to master anything even half decently in any of those places. If you want to see what pro studios look like, take a look at the section on studios that John has designed and built. viewforum.php?f=11 Notice the difference between his and the ones you linked to?

In all of these I cannot see one shred of evidence of "proper treatment", angled walls, or even foam tiles, which leads me to suggest that these people have somehow made the best of their situation by 1 becoming farmiliar with their monitors and positioning them as good as possible

Ummmmm..... I don't think so! Rather, I'd suggest that people who built and use those studios understand exactly what they have, and exactly what the purpose is. They have no delusions about the extremely limited capabilities of their systems. They just use them for what they were meant for, then they take their reference tracks and demos to professional studios to get them re-recorded properly. At least, the ones who actually get ahead do that: the rest get nowhere. Anyway, I hope I at least covered the five points that you were looking for. Those are the five basic things that I would do if that were my room. - Stuart -

Just as a further help, check out the Studio building/acoustics forum over on http://www.gearslutz.com. They are much more geared to helping with as you mention, "Guerilla" recording cases such as yours, whereas this site, it needs to be said, is really geared up to helping people "Construct" a studio. I'm really refering here to the different directions that given help will be coming from if you get what I mean - no critisism, just good to know.

Thanks very much to all of you for your in depth responses. I will take your suggestions into consideration. The odds are I will not be taking out the carpet, or the tiles, however I did just email one of the authors of a book on mixing for the home studio that I had read, and his advice was to place some OC or rigid fibre glass over top of the panels and maybe try to get in about 6 bass traps. Thats probably as far as I will take it. In fact I dont even think that if I had the money I would build the sort of "pro" studios you pointed out. I would rather just record here and then if I absolutely must I will pay to go in for few last minuet touches into a good room somewhere to make final adjustments. However with the kind of stuff I want to come up with, I dont even know what sort of difference it would make. I believe at this point that I have to reassert that the type of music I am making and the general philosophy, genre, nuances, goals etc is quite out of place here. By the way, in with respect to the artists that I posted, there is no "re recording" of material in a big studio or anything of the sort, and the fact that you used phrases such as "wanting to be the next pink floyd by producing in their bedrooms with a 5 dollar pare of headphones" and "make it to the charts" does demonstrate an enormous lack of knowledge in the area of the type of music I am talking about probably equal to my lack of acoustical treatment knowledge. Those rooms are not "scratch pads", the albums have been made there then sent to be mastered, with perhaps checking the mix in the artists car and their ghetto blaster in the kitchen. Some of those artists have never even been in a studio, Burial for example I dont think has ever been out of his bedroom! I would also imagine that most professional recording engineers, especially ones who's world consists of people trying to make the charts with the frame of reference being conventional music, would not even know what to do with most of the recording techniques used by the artists mentioned. What would a "pro engineer" say when one of these artists approaches them with a track where the background noise is pushed to the front with stereo width and high mid boosts and the drums are placed far back in the mix as if they were recorded in the bathroom across the hall from the mic (because they probably were!)? Or when kick drums are loaded with reverb or handclaps with the obvious room ambience of the artists front porch with the sound a car driving by in the background? Believe it or not these are actually real instances I am talking about here. Im not trying to provide an excuse to not wanting to take the time to learn more about proper treatment here, but I am trying to let you know that I am getting the feeling that we are on 2 very different waves here. I would imagine that the music that sounds good to me would probably sound horrible and unprofessional to you, but there are different sensibilities going on right now. I would be curious to hear what you initial reactions of this music would be. Does this sound like it needed a professional recording studio or engineers? Does it perhaps sound really bad and full of mixing flaws to your ears? Again Im not trying to sound like a jerk or something I am just trying to show where Im coming from... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Caj44X2a ... re=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SyHJVB8 ... re=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlEkvbRmfrA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C985uGVn ... re=related

I get where your coming from...