Hi! New here, would love help with ~1200 ft^2 studio build

Hello Everyone! My name is Perry, am located in the Sacramento area of California, and am currently in the process of beginning a new project studio/rehearsal space in our area. I have been a musician for about 20 years, recording off and on throughout those years, but never seriously. Over the last couple years, I have gotten a little more serious about recording and playing and will be setting up a project studio over the next few months. If you care to read about the background of the project, go ahead and read on. If you just want to get to my point/question, skip down to the bold print! Long story short(er), I was set to begin med school a few years ago in my late 20's after returning to and finishing up my University education. Then after a troubled pregnancy, my wife gave birth to our second child who was diagnosed with some learning disabilities and developmental difficulties. I decided (due to not being the primary household income at the time) to be a house-dad instead of pursue medicine, and be there for my family instead of studying 80 hours a week for the next 10 years. I have largely been happy with the decision to be involved in helping my children grow, but as most people who have been unemployed for long durations (chosen or otherwise), it can get might boring at times. So, to keep myself busy and as a bonus, I have gotten much more involved with music and recording, so much so that it's becoming more than just a hobby. Now I am at the point where the kids are going off to school and I am going to be getting the time to actually get back on the job market. Rather than pursue graduate or professional school, I think I am just going to follow my passion and make a go at working as a small studio operator. I am under no disillusion that success is guaranteed, and is actually statistically unlikely. Nonetheless, I am not doing this for the income, but rather to be busy doing something I love, and hopefully (eventually) do it well enough to support itself and maybe after some time, earn some money through it. I am giving myself about 2-3 years to see if this is going to have a chance of self-sustenance. I am not looking to profit in that time, but at least would like to see growth indicating that such would be possible eventually. So, just in case anyone else cares I will finish the background of how this poject came to be. Prior to returning to college, I was in bands and everything, toured a little, had a blast. Once I went back to school, I was focused on my education and lost touch of most of my musical friends. They all come racing back after med school didn't work out and I was home a lot with spare time. My best friend's band was renting space from a local rehearsal warehouse, where we began doing some of our recording. Treatment was terrible, it sounded bad, I had nowhere to really mix (though we added bass traps and absorption), and I kind of got me thinking that for the amount they were spending, and with the real estate market being so bad in our area, that I could probably find and lease our own space and design a much better sounding room to rehearse and record in for about the same amount of money. So, I started a company, began acquiring more gear, and have ended up doing just that - finding a space we can use to do better on our own terms. It has turned from being a simple thing among friends to quickly growing into having more people that want to record with us, so we are going to try and accommodate. So here I am now. We have located a spot that has low rent (due to the inside of the facility being in poor appearing condition, not entirely finished walls/ceilings but structurally sound), in an area we like (5 minutes from home) right off a major freeway, that is quite a nice size, and will not pose any problems with noise complaints from neighbors. The issue is, we really don't know what we are doing as far as studio design and don't really know where to begin. Last week, I met with the property manager, brought along a measuring tape and did the best I could to get measurements of the rooms, and now I am coming to you guys with a blank slate and a lot of questions, but most importantly: My goal here is just to get a few ideas on what YOU (the more experienced designer) might do with this space to accomplish my goals Where I am at now. Based on extensive reading, I believe I have a fair (not good, but fair) understanding of the principles of room construction. Design is a whole different animal. I got my education in analytic biochemistry and minored in computer engineering, so the math and physics involved are things I can grasp, but I don't know a lot about the physics/principles involved in room design, yet (I am reading as much as I can, but there are only so many hours in a day, and construction is going to being at the end of the month!) So here I am asking for ideas, help, anything and everything of the above to help me plan out this space. Over the last two days I have tried to learn sketchup and have made a couple drawings help plan the layout and design. I guess I really need help in the practical application of a working studio, and design help. Short term goals (6 month) due to current budget constraints: 1. Build a "live room" that can be used for band rehearsal, but primarily aimed toward recording in the long term. 2. Build a control room for said live room that is not perfect, but "good enough" just for tracking. 3. Build a mixing room for mixing/mastering that is more finished and well-treated. 4. Expand the bathroom to be a little larger, adding a comode stall and seperate urinal. (this is slightly lower on the priority list, but still up there). Long Term Goals 1. Add a rehearsal area that is acoustically isolated enough from the 'Live Room' to allow for band rehearsals and possibly some recording 2. Add an iso booth 3. If there is room, add a lounge area with refrigerator, couch and/or chairs, perhaps a flatscreen TV and videogames, table, that sort of thing. Basically a relaxing "man cave" type area that people can use for brainstorming, writing, just generally changing the pace from the studio areas. A hangout/break room. Budget and budgetary notes Right now, our construction budget is very limited - around $25K U.S., with another $20-30k injection expected in Feb-Mar. So for now, we should have enough to get started. This includes wiring/cabling/electrical but does not include any HVAC (minor venting, HVAC is already installed in a good quiet way in most areas we would want it, alterations would be negligible if needed), recording gear, computers, etc. Engineering drawings for city permits will be done by a friend who is an architectural engineer, construction will be assisted by another friend who is a licensed contractor and yet another friend is a licensed electrician that will help with the electrical. So labor/design is largely free (besides the needed permits). Right now we are planning to accommodate 24 channels in the live room, with enough cabling ran to add one additional converter for a total of 30 channels. It's an "In the Box" project using a smaller amount of fairly good outboard gear, decent AD/DA, but no console is planned for now. It's not out of the question in the long-term, but we don't have a need for it now. Additional Notes On the drawings I am providing, ROOM 3 and ROOM 4 actually have a double (or possibly triple in some areas) leaf construction. The doorway (currently a single width door, but is framed for large double doors) is a 2-door entrance. Apparently the previous tenant was a printer and had loud machinery back there he wanted seperated from the rest of the building. The main problem with these rooms is that the roof is slightly angled but is only about 8' feet from the concrete floor at the shortest side, with a fairly flat pitch. In Room 1, there is a drop-ceiling that is easily removable but currently at 8'. The ceiling above (and in ROOM 2) goes to about 10 feet (give or take) to the current drywall. The flooring in ROOM 1 and 2 is currently industrial (vinyl?) tile over concrete, everywhere else in the building is concrete. The outer walls of the building are filled concrete block, with the exception of the roll-up door. The building is in rough shape no doubt, but given we are planning heavy amounts of construction anyway, we aren't worried about that. With that all said here is a link that has pictures of the space and a quick walkthrough video. Folder with pictures of the space, video walkthrough and sketchup folder In addition is a folder with some sketchup files. They are very rudimentary - I have been using sketchup for all of two days and though I am getting the hang of a lot of it, I still learning a lot. So be kind about my drawings! Obviously, the spaces outlined are square/rectangular in design and for acoustic purposes, that is not how we intend to build it, but rather was drawn that way largely to try out some general placement ideas. I really don't know where to begin, so I am hoping someone can be a hero here and point me toward some decent floorplan ideas. For those who don't want to bother with looking at the link, here are a couple jpegs that might help you give me some pointers: Empty building space/layout: My shoddy idea for one possible layout (as mentioned, final layout would NOT have square rooms, and this does not show treatement/desks/etc, just a rough idea for floorplan): I removed this image because it was so quickly and terribly done that it wasn't worth wasting time looking at. I will post another in about 48 hours after I have time to put one together. Have a lot of recording going on this weekend (good problem for me to have). I think the bathroom is in a bad spot, which will limit ideal layouts, but it can't be changed due to sewage constraints. The walls aren't ideal either, but upon further inspection, the long wall on the entry way is NOT load bearing, and can be torn down. This opens up a lot of options. The wall that runs across the room (at the bathroom) is load bearing, double leaf construction about 18" from one side to the other if i recall correctly. So, give me some ideas! I am not looking for someone to design the place for me. Nothing of the sort, I am just asking for ideas. Feel free to make some changes to the sketchup files with your ideas, if you have the time and would be kind enough, but I would be very please with just a few lines of text here offering ideas. Thank you so much for any thoughts! -Perry

Hi Perry. welcome. Please re-read the forum rules about posting: You seem to be missing something, and you also seem to have skipped the information on image sizes. :) - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

Hi Perry. welcome. Please re-read the forum rules about posting: You seem to be missing something, and you also seem to have skipped the information on image sizes. :) - Stuart -

Hi Stuart, I could have swore I put my location in, and yes, I did miss the image sizing somehow but I did resize to fit. My apologies. I know I am not supposed to link images, but there are many and I didn't think they were all relevant. Anyway, I would really appreciate any ideas people might have. I have actually made some newer drawings that have changed the access points some to give access to the control room without needing to go through the live room, and have tried to fit an iso booth in (and actually used more acoustically appropriate geometry) but I am hesitant to post anything - I really just don't have a clue what I am doing. I have learned a lot about recording and mixing over the last few years (especially lately since doing it so frequently), but don't really have a clue about floorplan design. I have contacted a number of designers by email looking for consulting and I can't even seem to pay someone to help with ideas. Guess I am just going to have to do more reading and give it a shot on my own. Sorry for not following proper etiquette. If there is anything else I need to fix, feel free to let me know. Regards, Perry

but I am hesitant to post anything - I really just don't have a clue what I am doing.

That's OK! Just post whatever you have, and folks here will offer their suggestions on how to improve it. The problem here sometimes is that we tell it like it is! No holds barred, just the plain truth, no sugar coating. Some people don't like that, and take it personally, but others appreciate the candid, straightforward truth. It's easy to take things the wrong way when someone asks "That was dumb! Tear it out and do it again, the right way." :) So just take the comments as constructive criticism, not personal at all. Don't be intimidated by what you might hear in return, as it is all intended to help, not harm. The reason that responses are sometimes curt and harsh is because sometimes folks have already answered the exact same question a dozen times to a dozen different people, and you were unfortunate enough to be number 13, so you got the earful! It happens....

Sorry for not following proper etiquette. If there is anything else I need to fix, feel free to let me know.

It looks like all your ducks are in a neat row now! No problems there. And the long explanation is very useful too: It helps us to understand where you are and where you want to go, which is a large part of the design process. Some people get tied up on things like room ratios and floated floors in their first post, but you are doing it right by giving good background information. So here's some comments on what you wrote in your original post:

I kind of got me thinking that for the amount they were spending, and with the real estate market being so bad in our area, that I could probably find and lease our own space and design a much better sounding room to rehearse and record in for about the same amount of money.

Smart move. Plus, you'll have the space available 24/7, and can rent out unused time to other bands, which is something you most likely could not do in your rented rehearsal space.

the inside of the facility being in poor appearing condition, not entirely finished walls/ceilings but structurally sound),

That's actually good, since it allows you to tear down what isn't working / looks bad and re-build it better, both acoustically and aesthetically.

but I don't know a lot about the physics/principles involved in room design, yet (I am reading as much as I can, but there are only so many hours in a day,

If you don't already have them, get "Master Handbook of Acoustics" by F. Alton Everest, and "Home Recording Studio: build It Like The Pros" by Rod Gervais. Those two will set you on the right path.

...and construction is going to being at the end of the month!

OK, I warned you about this type of "no-sugar-coating" response that you might get: STOP! You are nowhere near ready to build anything, and you wont be appreciably closer in three weeks! Learning how to design will take you months, maybe more. The actual design process itself will take months more. Acoustics isn't easy, and some of the construction techniques you'll need are also not easy. There are roughly seventeen kazillion and forty three things that you need to keep in mind at all times while designing (give or take a few bazillions). And if you get any one of those wrong, your design will suffer in ways you never dreamed of! OK, so I'm exaggerating just a bit, but you get the picture: There's no way that you'll be ready to build anything 3 weeks from now. I'd strongly suggest that you re-think that plan of starting to build at the end of the month.

Short term goals due to current budget constraints: 1. Build a "live room" that can be used for band rehearsal, but primarily aimed toward recording in the long term. 2. Build a control room for said live room. 3. Build a mixing room for mixing/mastering, etc. 4. Expand the bathroom to be a little larger, adding a comode stall and seperate urinal. (this is slightly lower on the priority list, but still up there).

Good! You have some proper goals in mind already. Comment: Your control room can also be your mixing / mastering room, unless you plan to be working on two different projects at the same time. Is it necessary to have both rooms? You can save money and time here, and use that space for other things, like vocal booths, isolation booths, storage, lounge, office, etc.

Right now, our construction budget is very limited - around $15-20K U.S., with another $20-30k injection expected in Feb-Mar.

That's a good start, but as you already realize, it probably won't be enough to do all that you want to do. Some will have to wait for future budget. There also seem to be some important things that you haven't considered yet.... More on that later...

Engineering drawings for city permits will be done by a friend who is an architectural engineer, construction will be assisted by another friend who is a licensed contractor and yet another friend is a licensed electrician that will help with the electrical.

Great! That's a good team of free help there! But you need to make one more friend: structural engineer. A lot of what you will be building is structural, with very large loads on it. You need a professional guy to take a look at your plans, do the calculations, and confirm that it will all stay together without coming down on your head the first time someone slams a door a bit too hard.

On the drawings I am providing, ROOM 3 and ROOM 4 actually have a double (or possibly triple in some areas) leaf construction.

Ooops! Triple leaf is bad. Need to get rid of that, where possible, or compensate where there is no other choice.

The flooring in ROOM 1 and 2 is currently industrial (vinyl?) tile, everywhere else in the building is concrete.

Good. so your acoustic floor are already in place! Not much more to do there.

I can definitely throw some windows and doors into the walls and add more, but the current walls are load bearing, so I can't really move them cheaply, and getting rid of them entirely is not going to be allowed by the property owner.

I don't think it will be necessary to change much of the load-bearing structure: you can work around it with careful design.

In addition is a folder with some sketchup files. They are very rudimentary - I have been using sketchup for all of two days and though I am getting the hang of a lot of it,

Not bad, for two days! When I started trying to figure it out, all I had after two days was a mess of lines and surfaces, like something out of a nightmare Picasso might have had on his worst day, while drunk! :) On the proposed layout: that can definitely be improved! There are many possibilities for that space, but you'll need to work on your goals and concepts a bit in order to figure things out better. For example, try to come up with a description of the way you see a typical day in the life of your studio: Do you have multiple clients doing different things at the same time in different rooms, or is it just you guys jamming for fun? Do you need to run two recording sessions at the same time, or one recording session plus one mix / mastering session? Do you need to be able to rehearse in one area while another group is tracking and a third client is mastering? Is the primary purpose of the facility rehearsal, or tracking, or mixing, or mastering? What types of groups / music / instruments will you be recording / rehearsing? Etc. Try to figure out your needs in that area, and that should help you focus on which rooms should be your priority, and which can go on the back burner for now. You will also need to look into local noise regulations, and conduct some tests with a sound level meter, to see how much isolation you need. Also, this is a going to be a commercial facility, so you need to consider things wheelchair accessibility, and other things that you wouldn't need to bother with for a home studio. Lots of things to think about, but the more you get done, the more it will lead you towards a good design. I'll take a look at your links tomorrow, but I gotta get some sleep now! :) - Stuart -

Thank you much for the reply Stuart. I will work on a reply giving more information, in a more organized form, and try and get some different drawings up with a couple different ideas, as well as answer the questions posed. I have gotten a little better at Sketchup, so I should get some better drawings posted of a few different floorplans with more detailed wall structure with more views. I have certainly considered the idea of making the control room the main mix studio, but was concerned about the space (I would like to have the control surfaces/computer monitors facing the studio/live room and acoustically, I believe it would be better to have a larger/deeper mixing studio, with the taller ceilings of the front areas of the building. But I will add more info shortly. Quite busy over the last few days. Thanks and Kind Regards, Perry

Hi All, Have been incredibly busy these last couple weeks. Between trying to finish tracking an album for a band I have been working with, planning the new space, NAMM, etc... I have been tied up. I am going to work on a new rough drawing as my partners and I, after much deliberation, have decided to go a slightly different route. We have decided we don't really have the need for the mixing/mastering studio and are going to try and incorporate that into the control room for the main studio. The front entry space is going to have a foyer, or at least a smaller entry area and then the back office will likely become a retail display floor for some of the electronics we are working on, as well as some boutique items. We met some pretty cool and interesting vendors at NAMM and plan on adding some more lines to our planned retail end (and website). That all said, we did end up getting approval for the lease and get the keys this week. So we intend to do some clean up of various areas, and then start the major construction on just the live room/studio first. We are basically going to build it out one room at a time. We will get the entry way looking presentable, leave the warehouse as storage space, fix the bathroom to make it ADA compliant, and then we will be doing the first 'real' construction in the studio and control room. I want to emphasize that we are building a project studio, and we are planning on staying in this facility for 3-5 years. It's not intended to be perfect, nor commercial quality. It's a starter studio, where we intend to learn and grow. It's a step up from the minimally treated 250 square foot rehearsal space we have been doing most of our recording in. That said, we do want it to sound good and have no major acoustic flaws. If possible (and it may not be in a room this small) we would really like to do live recordings. So, with that all said, I will finally get around to getting some better drawings done and posted. The main questions I am going to have at this point are regarding window and door selection. What ratings/measurements/etc should I be looking at for doors? I came across a pair of 6' opening "Anderson Patio Doors" which we have here at my home and they are very high quality sliding glass doors, very good at isolation (relative to the 'regular' sliding glass doors we have), and just work smoothly/nicely. But of course that doesn't mean they will be anything close to ideal in a studio environment. But if they will work for the main access doors to the studio, that would be awesome. They were $1200 for the pair, which is less than a single one typically costs. My questions at this point largely relate to doors and windows, and the ideal air gap between the outer and inner walls in the studio. I want to maximize the size of the room, but do want acoustics to be decent. My plans for the walls are like this: Outer wall (concrete filled cinder block) - air gap ( 6-8"? ) - Roxul 60 or 80 (4-6"?) - 2 layers of 5/8" Drywall mounted to the 2" x 6" studs. Then of course, Corning 703 panels, bass traps, clouds, 2D/3D diffusors, helmholtz resonators, etc will be used as needed to minimize nodes, flutter, etc. My biggest concern is the ceiling which currently slants from about 10' down to 8.75' currently. For the ceiling, should I drop the ceiling and go for the 'room within a room' design,to allow for a better MSM effect, basically following the process for the walls? The ceiling is currently (from the outside in): tar paper - plywood (5/8") - flat 2" x 6" - mounted to what appear to be rafters 16" center on center with currently some cheap fiberglass insulation thrown up there. I will be going back to the property Monday or Tuesday to take a better look before signing the lease papers, but this is what it appears like in my photos. Anyway, I will try and get better sketches done up and see if they help you guys in providing more guidance. For the record - I know my initial post was riddled with naivety and probably annoyed many, or at the very least gave the impression that I am just another idiot who wants to "build a badass studio and start making fat beats in a week" or some crap like that. That couldn't be farther than the truth. While I am certainly a little ambitious, I have very quickly learned that my original plans were unreasonable, that my knowledge on the subject is lacking substantially, and that I need to have more realistic goals and time lines. So here are my goals and timelines: I have a beginning budget of around $25k that I hope will get my through the construction of the performance studio (also to be used as rehearsal room), control room (also functioning as the mix studio), the bathroom renovation (which won't cost much), and a little bit of polishing in the front office/foyer area. This budget includes cables, electrical wiring/boxes, building materials, windows, doors, insulation, paint, etc, and if any is left, treatment for the two primary rooms of interest. I think based on my initial estimations this is doable. I am open to thoughts on what YOU guys would do for construction. Steel or wood studs? Ceiling construction? I will add better drawings of the space I am talking about soon. Thanks all! Perry