New Studio Design, from scratch.. Need some help..

How you fellas doing. First want to congratulate Mr. Sayers, and all the guys here for making this the best acoustics forum online. I'm currently in the design stage of our new 3000 sq ft. facility in North Miami Beach, FL. The facility is going to house several studios, just you basic main A-Room, and smaller production B and C Rooms, as well as a video/photo shoot and editing room, and a few offices. I've attached a rough floor plan showing the layout. But my main focus on this whole project is of course, the A-Room. A-Room use is for recording/mixing of hip hop vocals, and latin or rock bands. Location: Our location is in a side by side warehouse building. The whole building is built with cement blocks, with a clean concrete flooring, and 16 ft high concrete ceiling. Our neighbors, to one side is an antique car body shop, mostly doing hand detailing and very little mechanic work (no one there during late night hours), and to the other end, its a company who store a big tour bus designed as a party bus, loudest noise there is when bus is started, but this unit is located to the other end of where the studio will be, studio will face antique car shop side wall, but decent isolation is considered, being that our in-house producer's (located in the B-Room) monitoring system is a full DJ PA system, and even that his room will be located at a decent distance from the A-Room, we just don't want to go through any headaches. Layout: After doing a rough design of the location, we dedicated one corner of the location measuring in at 35 ft. wide, by 20 ft length, with a maximum ceiling height of 10 ft. In this space i would like to fit a; Control Room - 15 ft Wide x 18 ft Length x 10 ft High Live Room - 16 ft Wide x 12 ft Length x 10 ft High Vox / Iso Booth - 5 ft Wide x 7 ft Length x 10 ft High Floor Plan Attached Budget We yet don't have a defined budget set for the project, but it will be something $10,000+. We do have some left over and some reusable mineral wool, both rigid and the other flimsy kind that we plan to use for traps, etc, as well as some hand made panels that we will take apart and use the insulation in those to make for bigger panels, as well as we have the glass used for both the live and vox booth from our old place. Construction Speaking about the A-Room, between me and the team, we had planned to use 2x6 wood studs for framing, using acoustical sealant under the wall panel panes, with a 6 inch air gap all around the outer leaf as well as between the rooms. Use of either R-19 or higher rating for the in wall insulation. 2 layers of sheet rock/gypsum board. 2x6 studs for ceilings (decoupled per room). And maybe 2 layers of either marine board, or some type of high density plywood for flooring (leaving a small gap around room for filling with backer rod and acoustic sealant. Acoustic Layout I've also attached a rough floor plan showing what we planned on for the angled acoustic walls, traps for the rooms. Still a little confused on which insulation thickness (2 inch rigid i guess), angles, monitor soffit mounting (plan on mounting a PA system for playback only), and control room back wall panel design/construction such as bass traps/hangers, or if diffusion is needed. Hope I've explained in depth what we are getting our selves into, and hope that with your help, all this can be done right. I appreciate any feedback as possible. Construction wont start for another 2 months or so, so I hope I use this time wisely to design and construct a great sounding room. Thanks guys in advance.

Hi "Magic". Welcome! Your basic plan seems reasonable, as far as can be seen from the basic sketches, but it would be better to see that as a more complete model in SketchUp, to be sure! Just a couple of comments: 1) Why such a huge sound lock? Lots of wasted space there. 2) It might be an idea to put the vocal booth outside the live room, so you can use them independently. More flexibility for a big facility like that. 3) You say:

A-Room use is for recording/mixing of hip hop vocals, and latin or rock bands.

... which implies live recordings of things like drums, percussion, brass, etc. in the live room, correct? So isolation is a major point here? What is your target figure for isolation? 4) You seem to have some flanking issues, and possible mult-leaf problems, but it's hard to figure out from that line drawing. If you could re-do that in SketchUp and post the SKP here, it would make it a lot easier to check. 5) " ... with cement blocks, with a clean concrete flooring, and 16 ft high concrete ceiling. " Great! You have a really good outer leaf there. Lucky guys! Are those cement blocks solid or hollow? If hollow, are they sand-filled? 6) But then you say this:

Control Room - 15 ft Wide x 18 ft Length x 10 ft High Live Room - 16 ft Wide x 12 ft Length x 10 ft High Vox / Iso Booth - 5 ft Wide x 7 ft Length x 10 ft High

... so if you have 16 feet of headroom, why are you limiting your rooms, particularly the live room, to only ten feet? That isn't logical. I'd rather go for more height in the live room, even if it means changing another dimension to avoid modal issues. 7) Budget:

We yet don't have a defined budget set for the project, but it will be something $10,000+.

That's just for the "A" control room by itself, right? Not including live room, booth and sound lock? Even then, it's only US$ 37 per square foot. Rather on the low side, I'd say. Dis you consider things like HVAC, electrical installation, permits, and inspections when you came up with that figure? Those are often over looked in estimating costs. (HVAC alone for that room could cost a third to half of that...) 8) Glass:

as well as we have the glass used for both the live and vox booth from our old place.

What type of glass? How thick? You need to know that in order to ensure that it matches your proposed surface density for the inner leaf walls and ceilings. If it doesn't match, then you won't be able to use it. 9) Doors: You didn't mention them. What are your plans there? It looks like you need at least seven doors, based on that layout, for the CR, LR both and sound lock. Figure at least US$ 500 to build each one yourself (probably more), or a couple of thousand each to buy them ready made. That's a large chunk of your budget gone, right there. 10) You say:

we had planned to use 2x6 wood studs for framing, using acoustical sealant under the wall panel panes, with a 6 inch air gap all around the outer leaf as well as between the rooms.

2x6 studs plus an extra 6" gap between studs and block wall gives you over 11" of air space, not 6". Or are you planning to build inside-out? For the amount of isolation that you seem to need, 11" is good, 6" not so good. 11) That leads to another couple of questions: how much isolation (transmission loss) are you shooting for with that plan? And what resonant frequency are you planning to tune the walls for? 12) "... Use of either R-19 or higher rating for the in wall insulation. ..." What matters for acoustics is not the R-rating, but the gas flow resistivity. Most manufacturers don't bother measuring or publishing that, but the density can give you a clue about it: for fiberglass, you should be using something in the range around 30 kg/m3 for that application. More like 50 kg/m3 if you go with mineral wool instead. 13) "... 2 layers of sheet rock/gypsum board ..." What type? How thick? Those are rather major points. 14) "... 2x6 studs for ceilings ..." If they are on the ceiling, then they are "joists" not "studs". But did you check the structural calculations on that? Can you span those distances with 2x6 joists supporting that load? What type of wood? I didn't check, but I have a feeling that 2x6 joists won't cut it for spanning 15 feet with a two or three layers of 5/8" fire-rated drywall, plus several inches of insulation, plus HVAC, plus electrical, plus.... 15) "... And maybe 2 layers of either marine board, or some type of high density plywood for flooring (leaving a small gap around room for filling with backer rod and acoustic sealant. ..." Why? You said you have a good concrete floor already. Why do you want to cover it with plywood? You could just stain it artistically, and have a great floor at very little extra cost. Or if it is in bad shape, then just lay laminate flooring over it. I don't understand the need for "marine board" or "high density plywood". 16) "... I've also attached a rough floor plan showing what we planned on for the angled acoustic walls, traps for the rooms...." There seem to be several issues there. What do you mean by "angled acoustic walls"? You already have your inner leaf, so those "angled acoustic walls" cannot be solid. What do you have in mind? Just cloth? If you add additional solid walls then you will create a three-leaf system, which reduces isolation in the low frequencies. 17) Your speaker soffits angles are way wrong: the acoustic axes seem to be aimed at about 90% of room depth, instead of the correct 38% position, which is where your mix position should be. I also don't see the bass traps you mentioned: There's nothing big enough in that rear section to be usable as a bass trap, and your door is in the location where the right rear bass trap should go. 18) " .. Still a little confused on which insulation thickness (2 inch rigid i guess) ...". Depends! :) You'll most likely be using several different types and thicknesses in different places. But not rigid. Semi-rigid 703 is about the best for acoustics. 19) "... angles, monitor soffit mounting (plan on mounting a PA system for playback only)..." :shock: :!: PA speakers in the "A" control room of a top studio? :shock: Ummmm.... Why would you do that? Why not invest in some decent studio monitors? A nice pair of Adam A8X's, for example, would most likely go well in that size room, and shouldn't break the bank. But PA speakers????? Sorry, but I just don't understand the logic of doing that. It would be kind of like buying a Porsche, then putting tractor tires on it.... :!: :D 20) "... and control room back wall panel design/construction such as bass traps/hangers, or if diffusion is needed. ..." The room is too small for most types of diffusion to be useful. Diffusers are more for large rooms. You'll probably be doing mostly absorption, hangers, slot walls, and suchlike. Maybe panel traps, but hopefully not.

Construction wont start for another 2 months or so, so I hope I use this time wisely to design and construct a great sounding room.

2 months is a little short to do a full design for a major studio like that, except maybe for an experienced studio designer. That sounds a little optimistic. There's a LOT that needs to be done! I'd suggest that you might want to re-think your budget and timing a bit, then use the "search" feature of the forum to do some research on the missing bits. For example, there's lots of info here on how to do the speaker geometry correctly, including soffits, angles, mix position, heights, distances, etc. There's also stacks of information on how to avoid three-leaf and four-leaf systems, how to build doors and windows, how to do HVAC, etc. I'd also suggest that you re-do the same basic outline as above in SketchUp, and post it here so we can get a better idea about those potential issues that seem to be there. But at least you found the right place! This forum is the best possible place you could be to learn how to do this right! - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

Hi "Magic". Welcome! Your basic plan seems reasonable, as far as can be seen from the basic sketches, but it would be better to see that as a more complete model in SketchUp, to be sure! Just a couple of comments: 1) Why such a huge sound lock? Lots of wasted space there. 2) It might be an idea to put the vocal booth outside the live room, so you can use them independently. More flexibility for a big facility like that. 3) You say:

A-Room use is for recording/mixing of hip hop vocals, and latin or rock bands.

... which implies live recordings of things like drums, percussion, brass, etc. in the live room, correct? So isolation is a major point here? What is your target figure for isolation? 4) You seem to have some flanking issues, and possible mult-leaf problems, but it's hard to figure out from that line drawing. If you could re-do that in SketchUp and post the SKP here, it would make it a lot easier to check. 5) " ... with cement blocks, with a clean concrete flooring, and 16 ft high concrete ceiling. " Great! You have a really good outer leaf there. Lucky guys! Are those cement blocks solid or hollow? If hollow, are they sand-filled? 6) But then you say this:

Control Room - 15 ft Wide x 18 ft Length x 10 ft High Live Room - 16 ft Wide x 12 ft Length x 10 ft High Vox / Iso Booth - 5 ft Wide x 7 ft Length x 10 ft High

... so if you have 16 feet of headroom, why are you limiting your rooms, particularly the live room, to only ten feet? That isn't logical. I'd rather go for more height in the live room, even if it means changing another dimension to avoid modal issues. 7) Budget:

We yet don't have a defined budget set for the project, but it will be something $10,000+.

That's just for the "A" control room by itself, right? Not including live room, booth and sound lock? Even then, it's only US$ 37 per square foot. Rather on the low side, I'd say. Dis you consider things like HVAC, electrical installation, permits, and inspections when you came up with that figure? Those are often over looked in estimating costs. (HVAC alone for that room could cost a third to half of that...) 8) Glass:

as well as we have the glass used for both the live and vox booth from our old place.

What type of glass? How thick? You need to know that in order to ensure that it matches your proposed surface density for the inner leaf walls and ceilings. If it doesn't match, then you won't be able to use it. 9) Doors: You didn't mention them. What are your plans there? It looks like you need at least seven doors, based on that layout, for the CR, LR both and sound lock. Figure at least US$ 500 to build each one yourself (probably more), or a couple of thousand each to buy them ready made. That's a large chunk of your budget gone, right there. 10) You say:

we had planned to use 2x6 wood studs for framing, using acoustical sealant under the wall panel panes, with a 6 inch air gap all around the outer leaf as well as between the rooms.

2x6 studs plus an extra 6" gap between studs and block wall gives you over 11" of air space, not 6". Or are you planning to build inside-out? For the amount of isolation that you seem to need, 11" is good, 6" not so good. 11) That leads to another couple of questions: how much isolation (transmission loss) are you shooting for with that plan? And what resonant frequency are you planning to tune the walls for? 12) "... Use of either R-19 or higher rating for the in wall insulation. ..." What matters for acoustics is not the R-rating, but the gas flow resistivity. Most manufacturers don't bother measuring or publishing that, but the density can give you a clue about it: for fiberglass, you should be using something in the range around 30 kg/m3 for that application. More like 50 kg/m3 if you go with mineral wool instead. 13) "... 2 layers of sheet rock/gypsum board ..." What type? How thick? Those are rather major points. 14) "... 2x6 studs for ceilings ..." If they are on the ceiling, then they are "joists" not "studs". But did you check the structural calculations on that? Can you span those distances with 2x6 joists supporting that load? What type of wood? I didn't check, but I have a feeling that 2x6 joists won't cut it for spanning 15 feet with a two or three layers of 5/8" fire-rated drywall, plus several inches of insulation, plus HVAC, plus electrical, plus.... 15) "... And maybe 2 layers of either marine board, or some type of high density plywood for flooring (leaving a small gap around room for filling with backer rod and acoustic sealant. ..." Why? You said you have a good concrete floor already. Why do you want to cover it with plywood? You could just stain it artistically, and have a great floor at very little extra cost. Or if it is in bad shape, then just lay laminate flooring over it. I don't understand the need for "marine board" or "high density plywood". 16) "... I've also attached a rough floor plan showing what we planned on for the angled acoustic walls, traps for the rooms...." There seem to be several issues there. What do you mean by "angled acoustic walls"? You already have your inner leaf, so those "angled acoustic walls" cannot be solid. What do you have in mind? Just cloth? If you add additional solid walls then you will create a three-leaf system, which reduces isolation in the low frequencies. 17) Your speaker soffits angles are way wrong: the acoustic axes seem to be aimed at about 90% of room depth, instead of the correct 38% position, which is where your mix position should be. I also don't see the bass traps you mentioned: There's nothing big enough in that rear section to be usable as a bass trap, and your door is in the location where the right rear bass trap should go. 18) " .. Still a little confused on which insulation thickness (2 inch rigid i guess) ...". Depends! :) You'll most likely be using several different types and thicknesses in different places. But not rigid. Semi-rigid 703 is about the best for acoustics. 19) "... angles, monitor soffit mounting (plan on mounting a PA system for playback only)..." :shock: :!: PA speakers in the "A" control room of a top studio? :shock: Ummmm.... Why would you do that? Why not invest in some decent studio monitors? A nice pair of Adam A8X's, for example, would most likely go well in that size room, and shouldn't break the bank. But PA speakers????? Sorry, but I just don't understand the logic of doing that. It would be kind of like buying a Porsche, then putting tractor tires on it.... :!: :D 20) "... and control room back wall panel design/construction such as bass traps/hangers, or if diffusion is needed. ..." The room is too small for most types of diffusion to be useful. Diffusers are more for large rooms. You'll probably be doing mostly absorption, hangers, slot walls, and suchlike. Maybe panel traps, but hopefully not.

Construction wont start for another 2 months or so, so I hope I use this time wisely to design and construct a great sounding room.

2 months is a little short to do a full design for a major studio like that, except maybe for an experienced studio designer. That sounds a little optimistic. There's a LOT that needs to be done! I'd suggest that you might want to re-think your budget and timing a bit, then use the "search" feature of the forum to do some research on the missing bits. For example, there's lots of info here on how to do the speaker geometry correctly, including soffits, angles, mix position, heights, distances, etc. There's also stacks of information on how to avoid three-leaf and four-leaf systems, how to build doors and windows, how to do HVAC, etc. I'd also suggest that you re-do the same basic outline as above in SketchUp, and post it here so we can get a better idea about those potential issues that seem to be there. But at least you found the right place! This forum is the best possible place you could be to learn how to do this right! - Stuart -

Stuart, thanks for your response. I left out way too many details, hence the post time. :lol: Im going to answer them in the same order. Before anything, my Sketchup skills are horrible, will do my best to fix anything, but the skills suck.. :| 1- Sound Lock, honestly owners design, only way that we could stayed with a normal squared out place, with a straight hallway all through out the building. I know it seems like a waste of space, but really don't see any other way of getting rid of it, other than doing an odd shaped live room to fill that in. 2- Vocal Booth, my first thought was of doing it like that but it would reduce the size of the live room by a few feet, i would have to look into that, and see how much space im left off with. 3- Isolation, honestly i dont have a number figure for the isolation, need to do some research on that, but we do bands from time to time, but we do need a decent amount of isolation. 4- Flanking issues, like i said earlier, my sketchup skills are not great at all, im gonna try to detail this as much as possible. 5- I have no clue if the cement blocks are hollow or sand filled, would have to get back to you on that, but i do like your input on the height situation. 6- The location actually has 14 feet high ceiling, not 16, we wanted to leave enough space for hvac ducting, electrical, etc. 7- Budget, yes this figure was thought of after calculating for the hvac, electrical, permits and what not. This is our actual materials budget, but the amount can actually be more. 8- Glass, we have laminate glass, 5/8 and 3/4 thickness. 9- Doors, we havent spoken about this yet, dont know if we are going DIY on this, or if we are actually buying them , need to look into some pricing for these, dont know if these door are actually good, and dont know how much they cost either. http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/acous ... s.htm?d=42 10- About the air gaps, we were looking into starting the framing 6 inches off of the 2 cement block walls that make up the corner where the studio is going to be at. Then in between the rooms also have an air gap of 6 inches. ( ill detail this in a new sketch up model ) 11- Need some more research on this. This is a topic i get a bit confused in. 12- for the fiberglass density, i need to check what our local stores have in stock, based on the numbers you posted. 13- The layers of sheet rock will be either 5/8 or 3/4 thick, need to look into the fire stop kind. 14- I would need to look into the ceiling structure span, need to see what the contractor recommends, but i think we need to up it up 2x8's but i would need to check with the contractor on this. 15- The marine board idea was for some what a floating floor effect, but if its a stupid idea, (sound like it is) then we would just lay wood flooring right on the concrete. 16- About the angled walls, what I meant was just those fabric wall systems with the semi-rigid insulation behind it. Ive seen just simple 2x2 wood framing with the insulation and stretched fabric over it. ( dont know if im explaining it correctly) 17- I just drew the soffit locations just to give an idea of what the plan is. Those monitors I would like them to be angled towards the back of the room for the client play back, hence the use of either a decent set of speakers for playback, normally work alot on hip hop and clients like to hear their stuff loud. Also need some input on the bass trapping for the room, I know we dont have alot of back wall space, 1ft behind the door. 18- No rigid insulation.. Got it. :D 19- About the PA speakers, budget doesn't allow for decent main monitors like Genelecs or other brands, and one issue we had in our previous location was our play back system, clients wanted louder sound, and we just werent getting there using Yamaha HS80M for mixing. I got the PA idea from a design Gullfo did using 3 Way Mackie Monitors aimed at client seating for playback only. I know it might be over kill in the room, but need to fulfill client needs, i guess. 20- No diffusion.. got it. Still need to figure out what to do for that back wall, maybe just absorption, dont know if hangers will fit, need some input on that. I know im a bit new to this design thing, research is a must. I will find a way to redo a more detailed plan (wish me luck). Thanks dude for all your input, and hopefully I dont cause more confusion on the next posts.

How you fellas doing. I've attached a file showing (with my lack of sketchup skills) some details on what i was planning for construction, framing, and a new idea for rear wall bass trapping using hangers idea. I yet don't have a clue on the correct treatment angles for such room nor for soffit mounting of monitors. I'm doing as much research as possible and implying it the most I can into this design. Thanks guys for all your input.

Bump ..

How you guys doing.. Happy New Year!! :yahoo: Hope you all had an awesome holiday time. I've been doing some more research on studio layouts, room modes, bass trapping for rear room, etc. A few things with the room modes, I saw the Bob Golds Room Mode Calculator, and saw a few details on what our room is looking like. This is the details from the site. Room Dimensions: Length=18 ft, Width=15 ft, Height=10 ft Room Ratio: 1 : 1.5 : 1.8 R. Walker BBC 1996: - 1.1w / h < l / h < ((4.5w / h) - 4): Pass - l < 3h & w < 3h: Pass - no integer multiple within 5%: Pass Nearest Known Ratio: - "5) M. M. Louden: 1971: Best ratio as per Louden" 1 : 1.4 : 1.9 RT60 (IEC/AEC N 12-A standard): 261 ms - ±50ms from 200Hz to 3.5kHz = 211 to 311ms - ±100ms above 3.5kHz = 161 to 361ms - <+300ms at 63hz = 561ms - 300<RT60<600ms RT60 (ITU/EBU Control Room Recommended): 228 ms - ±50ms from 200Hz to 4kHz = 178 to 278ms - <+300ms at 63hz = 528ms - 200<RT60<400ms Absorbtion to achieve ITU RT60: 578 sabins Volume: 2700 ft^3 Surface Area Total: 1200 ft^2 Surface Area Floor: 270 ft^2 Surface Area Ceiling+Floor: 540 ft^2 Surface Area Front Wall: 150 ft^2 Surface Area Front and Rear Wall: 300 ft^2 Surface Area Left Wall: 180 ft^2 Surface Area Left and Right Wall: 360 ft^2 Surface Area 4 Walls: 660 ft^2 Surface Area 4 Walls + floor: 930 ft^2 (sabins - front wall - carpet) / Left+Right+Rear wall: 30 % (sabins - front wall) / Left+Right+Rear wall: 83 % Schroeder Fc: 103hz Frequency Regions: - No modal boost: 1hz to 31hz - Room Modes dominate: 31hz to 103hz - Diffraction and Diffusion dominate: 103hz to 412hz - Specular reflections and ray accoustics prevail: 412hz to 20000hz Count (31.3-184hz) : Axials=12, Tangentials=47, Obliques=60 Count (31.3-100hz) : Axials=6, Tangentials=8, Obliques=3 Critical Distance (direct = reverberant field): 15.40ft I noticed that the Room Ratio 1 : 1.5 : 1.8 is really close to Louden Best Ratio of 1 : 1.4 : 1.9, does this mean that I should follow some of these guidelines, or should I do some changes to fit to Louden's Ratio? Also based on some research, I kinda tweaked my design layout, with a few degrees used in a few designs that I've read from some other posts here. I've attached the floor plan for revision, to see if any of this works. As well as I implemented bass hangers to the rear of the room. I don't what effect this solution would fit with this design as well as a straight framed back wall with the bass hangers. Also included a couch riser, if recommended for client seating. I'm still open to any feed back, and I'll get back to some more research. :D Thanks everyone.

I didn't do a ray trace, but to me it doesn't look like you are even close to establishing a good RFZ there. Your speaker geometry still doesn't make a lot of sense either. Yes, I realize you are trying to cover the rear couch with a good stereo image, but the room isn't wide enough to do that the way you are trying to: the angles and distances are not right. The distance between the speakers is much shorter than the distance from speaker to sofa, and the angles are too shallow to give a good image back there. You can only really do that well with a wider room (which introduces issues of its own...) You also seem to have an engineer whose ears are located in his eye sockets! :) Seriously, the acoustic axis from the speakers should be aimed at the engineer's ears, not his eyes. The axes will intersect a few inches (maybe several inches) behind the engineers head, not in the middle of his sinuses! And I still think there's a lot of space to be saved be eliminating that unnecessary sound lock, and moving the the iso booth to the other corner... But that's just my opinion. Personally, I would splay the walls of the CR (and therefore also the LR) to help with your RFZ. But that's just my $0.02. Take it for whatever you think its worth! :) - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

I didn't do a ray trace, but to me it doesn't look like you are even close to establishing a good RFZ there. Your speaker geometry still doesn't make a lot of sense either. Yes, I realize you are trying to cover the rear couch with a good stereo image, but the room isn't wide enough to do that the way you are trying to: the angles and distances are not right. The distance between the speakers is much shorter than the distance from speaker to sofa, and the angles are too shallow to give a good image back there. You can only really do that well with a wider room (which introduces issues of its own...) You also seem to have an engineer whose ears are located in his eye sockets! :) Seriously, the acoustic axis from the speakers should be aimed at the engineer's ears, not his eyes. The axes will intersect a few inches (maybe several inches) behind the engineers head, not in the middle of his sinuses! And I still think there's a lot of space to be saved be eliminating that unnecessary sound lock, and moving the the iso booth to the other corner... But that's just my opinion. Personally, I would splay the walls of the CR (and therefore also the LR) to help with your RFZ. But that's just my $0.02. Take it for whatever you think its worth! :) - Stuart -

Thanks Stuart for your response. About the angle and distance situation, I'm still trying to figure this out, haven't found a guideline of what the front wall or wall splaying angles should be. Based on a few designs I've seen, I saw the 10 degree for the side walls and 15 degrees for soffit monitoring, also saw 30 degrees for soffit monitoring aimed towards sweet spot. The distance situation, should I start my front wall around where the live room window framing start, approx. 4 ft. I did notice about the engineer's listening spot, and I couldn't help to laugh, cause I didn't notice this (even funnier cause I'm the engineer) and I have normal placed ears. :lol: But about the near-field monitoring, monitors will be placed on stands behind the console desk, avoiding any monitor on desk effects on monitoring. With the soffit monitoring, it really isn't directed to anyone, its just a playback system for all of us, doesn't necessarily need to be aimed directly to client seating, and the system is probably going to consist on a pair of 2-way monitor system, something like JBL, Yamaha, budget doesn't fit for a pair of Genelec's (I'm a huge fan) probably 12 or 15 inch woofer, horn tweeter, and maybe separate sub woofer. Work in hip hop music alot and clients like to listen to their mixes in a club like environment. About the space, once again back to the drawing board (already there for all the other stuff) to rethink about the space, making the sound lock a bit smaller, and maybe making the iso booth, live room making it bigger, but I do want to keep the control the same size as maybe in the same place, also wanting to keep the live room and iso booth well separated from all the other rooms, even though rooms will be isolated and sound proofed. With the control room, to what degree is it recommend for this space for the walls to be splayed, and are we talking about just the side walls, or overall. Also this will be done with the live room, but my main focus as of now is the control room details. Also how do you do the ray trace thing in sketchup. Thanks Stuart, and you $0.02 are well taken, this is a heck of a help, and a tough learning process. Thanks

You are going to find, Magic, that everything you present out here is going to be tweaked or kinked or knocked down....until you have about 6 months of learning under your belt. At that point (the 6 month point) you will realize either of two things. You are tired of it, and go ahead and do it what ever way you want, or you will have already started the build and will become annoyed at why no one of the persons here agree with your thinking and how come they do not share your enthusiasm. Sorry, there is the often overlooked and seldom seen third option. You will learn just how much involved this is, how much you do not know (most likely in any of the seven plus trades involved) and slow down to a crawl...then it starts going right for you :) This is a truth from a man that only speaks the truth...

You will learn just how much involved this is, how much you do not know (most likely in any of the seven plus trades involved) and slow down to a crawl...

:!: :lol: :thu: Yup! I feel totally identified with that one! :) How true... - Stuart -

xSpace wrote:

You are going to find, Magic, that everything you present out here is going to be tweaked or kinked or knocked down....until you have about 6 months of learning under your belt. At that point (the 6 month point) you will realize either of two things. You are tired of it, and go ahead and do it what ever way you want, or you will have already started the build and will become annoyed at why no one of the persons here agree with your thinking and how come they do not share your enthusiasm. Sorry, there is the often overlooked and seldom seen third option. You will learn just how much involved this is, how much you do not know (most likely in any of the seven plus trades involved) and slow down to a crawl...then it starts going right for you :) This is a truth from a man that only speaks the truth...

xSpace, Thanks for your response and I appreciate your advice. I completely understand where your coming from. I don't expect anyone here to agree with any of the stuff that I come up with, I'm here to learn from my mistakes, which are many, as I have background is audio engineering, not acoustic design at all, and the ideas I try to implement in my design as much as I can, with the bits of research I do daily. Last place we had, we had the same situation, and everything within the design and construction was a bust. Lots of things were not done right, and alot of corners were cut, not happening with this design. I know I might be jumping ahead from the whole construction process, all of the most important things in the build, but while I'm here doing research and everything, I have details to explain to various people in my team. :idea: I just need to go back, and make sure that I check and re-check the important stuff within the design (framing, isolation, and the other good stuff) I truly appreciate your advice, as well as Soundman's. :thu: Oh yeah, and I want to remind that, I suck at Sketchup :( , so sorry for the boring line drawing. :lol:

About the angle and distance situation, I'm still trying to figure this out, haven't found a guideline of what the front wall or wall splaying angles should be.

There's several guidelines, and the one you need to use depends on what you are trying to do! :) For example, splaying a wall 6° will take care of flutter echo. (On the other hand, you can also treat flutter echo in other ways, without splaying walls...). If you are aiming for an RFZ design, then you'll very likely need an angle quite a bit larger than 6°. The exact angle depends on several other factors, such as the overall room geometry, dimensions and size.

Based on a few designs I've seen, I saw the 10 degree for the side walls

That might or might not be fine for your room. As above: "it depends". If you are doing a simple rectangular room, then that should be OK (unless the room is strangely shaped. If you are doing RFZ, then that probably isn't enough (although it might be). It is also possible to splay just the front half of the room, and leave the rear parallel. That saves space.

and 15 degrees for soffit monitoring,

15° angle for soffits is unusually shallow. I don't recall seeing any of John's designs with such a low angle (although I might be wrong on that).

also saw 30 degrees for soffit monitoring aimed towards sweet spot.

That is, indeed, the normal way to do things. 30° is generally the lower limit for soffit angles, as it gives you a 60° intersect for the acoustic axes. On occasions you might want to increase that to 45°, giving you a 90° intersect.

But about the near-field monitoring, monitors will be placed on stands behind the console desk, avoiding any monitor on desk effects on monitoring.

That's good: it helps keep vibrations and flanking off the desk and console, but you still need to be careful of reflections.

With the soffit monitoring, it really isn't directed to anyone, its just a playback system for all of us, doesn't necessarily need to be aimed directly to client seating, and the system is probably going to consist on a pair of 2-way monitor system, something like JBL, Yamaha, budget doesn't fit for a pair of Genelec's (I'm a huge fan) probably 12 or 15 inch woofer, horn tweeter, and maybe separate sub woofer. Work in hip hop music alot and clients like to listen to their mixes in a club like environment.

In that case, I'd probably still go for a more traditional layout, with the speakers aimed at the engineer, or maybe a bit behind him, so that everyone gets a reasonable direct image. And 15" is probably too big for a room like that. As a general rule, bigger speakers need more room for the fields from the woofer and tweeter to merge well, so you might not have enough room for that to happen.

Also how do you do the ray trace thing in sketchup.

Manually, painfully, with a lot of time, care and patience! :) (Beer and other beverages have been know to help as fuel for the occasion...) You start by creating a number of lines across a range of angles, in increments of, say, 5°, all centered on the point where the acoustic axis of the speaker meets the front panel. Then you extend each one until it touches a reflective surface, measure the angle of incidence to the surface normal, make another line at the same but opposite angle, reflecting around the other side of the normal, and see where it goes. Then repeat for all of the other lines. And you have to do it both vertically and horizontally, to check for reflections off the desk, console, ceiling, etc.

and a tough learning process.

Yup, the curve is a bit steep! And it stays that way for a while. Personally, I think the basic problem is that people already "know" how sound works and how acoustics works.... so you have to un-learn all the myth and garbage first, before learning how it REALLY works. That took me a while to figure out! I kept on thinking "But that's not intuitive!" Fact is, it really IS intuitive, once you leave behind your pre-concived notions and start again. So I understand what you are saying! The learning curve is steep, and long. But like Brien said; with lots of perseverance, you'll get there in the end. - Stuart -

Oh yeah, and I want to remind that, I suck at Sketchup :( , so sorry for the boring line drawing. :lol:

Oh dear! I have terrible news for you! The learning curve for SketchUp is even worse! :) But there are many good on-line tutorials, and it really is a very powerful, incredibly useful tool. Once you get the hang of it, it becomes second nature. It is worth the pain. - Stuart -

Soundman, thanks for the quick response. Got a few questions, and these angles are driving me nuts :!: You said the distance/space behind the front wall spacing depends on what I am trying to do. I'm lost here, I thought there was a certain distance requirement for the front wall framing. For the soffit angles, I was looking into the 30 degrees that you recommended for even monitoring in the sweet spot as well as in the rear of the room (client seating) For side walls, I am trying to achieve a RFZ, with the use of splaying the walls. From where should I calculate the start of the angle. Should it be from the rear wall corners, or mid room. I was looking into anything between 6 to 8 degrees if recommended. Monitoring (which I haven't mentioned before) will be Yamaha HS80M's for near field (maybe upgrading to something more hi-end) like mentioned before will be placed on speaker stands, taking into consideration any reflections off or from behind the desk. Still no clue for the mains, but I will look into 12", 15" does seem like overkill. They will be passive monitors, to avoid issues with removing and re-mounting the self powered monitor amps somewhere else. I did rework the room layouts, and got rid of some of the wasted space with the previous sound lock, making both the live room and vox/iso booth a bit bigger, and I did place the iso booth to the bottom right of the space. Once again thanks for all your help guys.

I'm liking that new layout a lot more than the old one! Much better use of space.

You said the distance/space behind the front wall spacing depends on what I am trying to do. I'm lost here, I thought there was a certain distance requirement for the front wall framing

Ahhh! OK, I thought you were talking about distances inside the room, as in speaker-to-speaker, speaker to mix position, etc. OK, once again there's no exact distance requirement for the wall framing. You see, a two-leaf MSM wall is actually a tuned system. Same principle as a pendulum swinging on a string, or a weight bobbing up and down on a spring, or the shock absorbers in your car. It is tuned to a specific frequency (set by the mass on the leaves and the size of the air gap between them, mainly). At that frequency it does not isolate at all. For all higher frequencies it isolates better and better. So obviously you need to tune it as low as possible, such that it isolates all of the frequencies that you are concerned about. You tune it by deciding how much mass to put on each leaf (= "how many layers of drywall"), and how big to leave the air gap. So there's no fixed size for the air gap, as it depends on YOUR specific situation. If you need to isolate deep roaring canon, earthquake sounds, rockets and things like that, then your needs are very different from the guy who needs to isolate acoustic guitar. Having said that, the general recommendation is that your air gap should be at least 4 inches. But since the framing itself will give you at least 3 1/2", you only really need about a half inch or inch between the outer leaf and the framing for the inner leaf, ASSUMING THAT YOU HAVE AVERAGE NEEDS. That's why defining your numbers is so important. Numbers in terms of "How much isolation do I need (decibels)?" and "What's the lowest frequency that I need to isolate?".

For the soffit angles, I was looking into the 30 degrees that you recommended for even monitoring in the sweet spot as well as in the rear of the room (client seating)

It's a good starting point! Putting the speakers further apart helps to get the aim point a bit further back in the room.

For side walls, I am trying to achieve a RFZ, with the use of splaying the walls. From where should I calculate the start of the angle. Should it be from the rear wall corners, or mid room

Either will work. Just doing the front part of the room saves space: if you splay the walls for the entire length of the room, you'll end up with large empty spaces at the front. But then again, you could use those to fit in the live room and maybe something else... :)

I was looking into anything between 6 to 8 degrees if recommended.

6° is minimum, but you'll very likely need a bit more than 8 to get a decent RFZ.

They will be passive monitors, to avoid issues with removing and re-mounting the self powered monitor amps somewhere else.

Moving the amps is an option, but isn't really necessary. As long as you allow for cooling in the soffit design, you'll be fine. The reason some people move the rear panel of active speakers is to make it easier to get to the controls, if they are on the rear panel. And some newer speakers don't need much cooling at all. The latest Adam A7X and A8x, for example, no longer even have heat sinks on the rear panel, as their latest technology runs much cooler, even at higher power. So I wouldn't discard any class of speakers just yet: they might still be good candidates. - Stuart -

Construction always came natural to me, and developing an understanding of the other trades seemed easy enough thru the years. Sketchup had me beat a few years ago...I just did not have the, whatever, to make it work. And then, as if by magic, after watching videos after video, page after page of help file...I GOT it!!!:) Took me two years, literally, to get anything of any use from that program.

What's up guys. Wanna thank you guys again for your words, ideas, and well taken advice. With that said, I want to slow down a bit with the whole acoustic side of the design and want to focus on whats important right now, the actual construction and isolation of the place. Sorry for all the back and forth and crazy confusion. Here's what I have planned and a few questions. Framing for the wall is going to consist of 2x6 wall studs. Floor plates will be sealed with some type of either acoustic sealant or any other non-hardening caulk. Wall will be framed 16" o.c. :?: Is there any other recommended non hardening caulk that we could find in either Lowes or Home Depot? I did find some of the Green Glue or OSI Acoustic sealants, but was maybe looking for something more economic, if not, don't wanna cut any corners and will by the right product. For Ceiling, I did notice that Soundman recommended that 2x6 joists will not be enough. Now I did read in a post here that for a 15' span a 2x8 will hold the weight of double layer drywall, insulation, wiring, etc. Is this correct, or does it need to be more. For Insulation we plan on either using Owens Corning pink stuff or Johns Manville insulation that matches Soundmans recommended 30 kg/m3 density. :?: Does it matter if we used the kraft paper lined one? Drywall is going to be 2 layers of 5/8 thick fire stop kind. Sealed all around with backer rod and acoustic sealant or similar no hardening caulk. With all the electrical and light fixtures, we still need to meet with the electrical guys to see about placement and wiring, but we will build out boxes for them to go in, all sealed inside with sealant, and will be sealed all around with backer rod and sealant when drywall is laid. When framing the Ceiling, we do plan on using this type of joist hangers. http://www.homedepot.com/Building-Mater ... ogId=10053 How far apart should we frame the joists, same as the walls, 16" o.c or can these be framed a bit more apart like 24" o.c. For Flooring we plan on laying wood flooring directly onto the concrete slab. Any hole on the drywall that gets opened for wiring or anything will be sealed up with backer rod and sealant. We still need to meet up with the HVAC guys to see what systems they offer or recommend for our place. A few questions; On the sound lock framing, does it need to be framed with 2x6 studs exactly as the rest of the facility or can this be framed with 2x4 using the insulation, and double layer of drywall? I have seen some rubber products used on the studs for when screwing drywall into them. Something like this.. http://www.asistorefront.com/p-213-acou ... -tape.aspx Is this recommended for reaching a higher STC rating or is this just bogus. I know about the use of resilient channel with the clips for better isolation and higher STC rating, but this my throw us up a bit on our budget. We are aiming for a high STC rating isolation something like STC60 with the double walls, and double layer of drywall. For doors, I was looking into something like this. Does this look good? http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/acous ... s.htm?d=42 They have high ratings, and come as a complete kit, but have not found out what the pricing is. I need to contact them, hopefully they are low cost as they advertise. On a side note : Here a new, more up skilled design, I'm trying my best with sketchup, but its still driving me crazy. Thanks guys for everything and all your tips and advice.

Hows you fellas doing.. Just a quick update, were still stuck in the whole permit process. We were required to hire an architect to draw out the whole facility plans to be granted the permit. So we are still waiting on that, but now I think we can get into some of the acoustic details for the room. I drew up a new model using 10 degrees for the side walls (RFZ) and 30 degrees for the soffit fronts. I have not yet tried the whole ray tracing process in Sketchup, still trying to figure it out. Ceiling clouds will also be used for early reflections over mix position. My goal for this room is a full flat frequency response. I do plan on using bass hangers for the rear of the room, but don't know or find any information on design formulas for making the bass hangers targeted to specific frequencies, only seen the mixed use of thin and wider panels. Do the hanging traps need to be angled, or can they just be hanged straight On the side walls, would it be more effective to just leave them as a fabric covered insulation wall, or the use of slats. Also the glass to the live room will be angled with the side wall framing. Now for a few questions: For all of the acoustic framing, do you guys recommend us framing with 2x2 or 2x4's? I ask cause I have seen both being used in different designs. Should the space behind the side panels be filled with loose insulation (mineral wool behind the semi rigid stuff) or just left empty? About the bass hangers, what size would be recommended for this room? How would I go about knowing what frequencies to target with the acoustics with out actually having the place built yet? Is it possible, just to have an idea on what needs to get worked on. I did look up the room modes and found this.. Frequency hz Spacing % Wavelength 1/2 Wavelength 1/4 Wavelength p q r Mode 31.4 35'12" 17'12" 8'12" 1 0 0 Axial 37.7 16.7 29'12" 14'12" 7'6" 0 1 0 Axial 49.0 23 23'1" 11'6" 5'9" 1 1 0 Tangential 56.5 13.2 20'0" 10'0" 5'0" 0 0 1 Axial 62.8 10 17'12" 8'12" 4'6" 2 0 0 Axial 64.6 2.7 17'6" 8'9" 4'4" 1 0 1 Tangential 67.9 4.8 16'8" 8'4" 4'2" 0 1 1 Tangential 73.2 7.2 15'5" 7'9" 3'10" 2 1 0 Tangential 74.8 2.1 15'1" 7'7" 3'9" 1 1 1 Oblique 75.3 0.6 15'0" 7'6" 3'9" 0 2 0 Axial 81.6 7.7 13'10" 6'11" 3'6" 1 2 0 Tangential 84.5 3.4 13'4" 6'8" 3'4" 2 0 1 Tangential 92.5 8.6 12'3" 6'1" 3'1" 2 1 1 Oblique 94.2 1.8 11'12" 5'12" 2'12" 0 2 1 Tangential 94.2 0 11'12" 5'12" 2'12" 3 0 0 Axial 98.1 3.9 11'6" 5'9" 2'11" 2 2 0 Tangential 99.3 1.2 11'5" 5'8" 2'10" 1 2 1 Oblique 101.4 2 11'2" 5'7" 2'9" 3 1 0 Tangential 109.8 7.6 10'3" 5'2" 2'7" 3 0 1 Tangential 113.0 2.8 10'0" 5'0" 2'6" 0 0 2 Axial 113.0 0 10'0" 5'0" 2'6" 0 3 0 Axial 113.2 0.1 9'12" 4'12" 2'6" 2 2 1 Oblique 116.1 2.4 9'9" 4'10" 2'5" 3 1 1 Oblique 117.3 1 9'8" 4'10" 2'5" 1 0 2 Tangential 117.3 0 9'8" 4'10" 2'5" 1 3 0 Tangential 119.1 1.5 9'6" 4'9" 2'4" 0 1 2 Tangential 120.6 1.2 9'4" 4'8" 2'4" 3 2 0 Tangential 123.2 2.1 9'2" 4'7" 2'4" 1 1 2 Oblique 125.6 1.9 8'12" 4'6" 2'3" 4 0 0 Axial 126.3 0.5 8'11" 4'6" 2'3" 0 3 1 Tangential 129.3 2.3 8'9" 4'4" 2'2" 2 0 2 Tangential 129.3 0 8'9" 4'4" 2'2" 2 3 0 Tangential 130.2 0.6 8'8" 4'4" 2'2" 1 3 1 Oblique 131.1 0.6 8'7" 4'4" 2'2" 4 1 0 Tangential 133.2 1.5 8'6" 4'3" 2'1" 3 2 1 Oblique 134.6 1 8'5" 4'2" 2'1" 2 1 2 Oblique 135.8 0.8 8'4" 4'2" 2'1" 0 2 2 Tangential 137.7 1.3 8'2" 4'1" 2'1" 4 0 1 Tangential 139.4 1.2 8'1" 4'1" 2'0" 1 2 2 Oblique 141.1 1.2 8'0" 4'0" 2'0" 2 3 1 Oblique 142.7 1.1 7'11" 3'12" 1'12" 4 1 1 Oblique 146.4 2.5 7'9" 3'10" 1'11" 4 2 0 Tangential 147.1 0.4 7'8" 3'10" 1'11" 3 0 2 Tangential 147.1 0 7'8" 3'10" 1'11" 3 3 0 Tangential 149.6 1.6 7'7" 3'9" 1'11" 2 2 2 Oblique 150.7 0.7 7'6" 3'9" 1'10" 0 4 0 Axial 151.8 0.7 7'5" 3'9" 1'10" 3 1 2 Oblique 153.9 1.3 7'4" 3'8" 1'10" 1 4 0 Tangential 156.9 1.9 7'2" 3'7" 1'10" 4 2 1 Oblique 156.9 0 7'2" 3'7" 1'10" 5 0 0 Axial 157.6 0.4 7'2" 3'7" 1'10" 3 3 1 Oblique 159.8 1.3 7'1" 3'6" 1'9" 0 3 2 Tangential 160.9 0.6 7'0" 3'6" 1'9" 0 4 1 Tangential 161.4 0.3 7'0" 3'6" 1'9" 5 1 0 Tangential 162.9 0.9 6'11" 3'6" 1'9" 1 3 2 Oblique 163.2 0.1 6'11" 3'6" 1'9" 2 4 0 Tangential 163.9 0.4 6'11" 3'5" 1'9" 1 4 1 Oblique 165.3 0.8 6'10" 3'5" 1'9" 3 2 2 Oblique 166.8 0.8 6'9" 3'5" 1'8" 5 0 1 Tangential 168.9 1.2 6'8" 3'4" 1'8" 4 0 2 Tangential 168.9 0 6'8" 3'4" 1'8" 4 3 0 Tangential 169.5 0.3 6'8" 3'4" 1'8" 0 0 3 Axial 171.0 0.8 6'7" 3'4" 1'8" 5 1 1 Oblique 171.7 0.4 6'7" 3'3" 1'8" 2 3 2 Oblique 172.4 0.4 6'7" 3'3" 1'8" 1 0 3 Tangential 172.7 0.1 6'7" 3'3" 1'8" 2 4 1 Oblique 173.1 0.2 6'6" 3'3" 1'8" 4 1 2 Oblique 173.6 0.2 6'6" 3'3" 1'8" 0 1 3 Tangential 174.1 0.2 6'6" 3'3" 1'7" 5 2 0 Tangential 176.4 1.3 6'5" 3'2" 1'7" 1 1 3 Oblique 177.7 0.7 6'4" 3'2" 1'7" 3 4 0 Tangential 178.1 0.2 6'4" 3'2" 1'7" 4 3 1 Oblique 180.8 1.4 6'3" 3'2" 1'7" 2 0 3 Tangential 183.0 1.2 6'2" 3'1" 1'7" 5 2 1 Oblique Explanation of Weightings: - group is a range of frequencies separated by 5% from the next range - groups wider than 5% are considered safe, e.g. the last big one - each frequency in a group is Minus 0.5 - iso is how isloated/separated a group is. if > 10% Plus 1 - Near is frequencies within 1% of another, if axial Plus 1, else +0.5 - Same is coincident/identical frequencies, if axial Plus 2, else +1 - To see examples of colours, try 10'x10'x10' and 10'x10'x9' - a 5% frequency separation is about a piano semitone Computed Information: Room Dimensions: Length=18 ft, Width=15 ft, Height=10 ft Room Ratio: 1 : 1.5 : 1.8 R. Walker BBC 1996: - 1.1w / h < l / h < ((4.5w / h) - 4): Pass - l < 3h & w < 3h: Pass - no integer multiple within 5%: Pass Nearest Known Ratio: - "5) M. M. Louden: 1971: Best ratio as per Louden" 1 : 1.4 : 1.9 RT60 (IEC/AEC N 12-A standard): 261 ms - ±50ms from 200Hz to 3.5kHz = 211 to 311ms - ±100ms above 3.5kHz = 161 to 361ms - <+300ms at 63hz = 561ms - 300<RT60<600ms RT60 (ITU/EBU Control Room Recommended): 228 ms - ±50ms from 200Hz to 4kHz = 178 to 278ms - <+300ms at 63hz = 528ms - 200<RT60<400ms Absorption to achieve ITU RT60: 578 sabins Volume: 2700 ft^3 Surface Area Total: 1200 ft^2 Surface Area Floor: 270 ft^2 Surface Area Ceiling+Floor: 540 ft^2 Surface Area Front Wall: 150 ft^2 Surface Area Front and Rear Wall: 300 ft^2 Surface Area Left Wall: 180 ft^2 Surface Area Left and Right Wall: 360 ft^2 Surface Area 4 Walls: 660 ft^2 Surface Area 4 Walls + floor: 930 ft^2 (sabins - front wall - carpet) / Left+Right+Rear wall: 30 % (sabins - front wall) / Left+Right+Rear wall: 83 % Schroeder Fc: 103hz Frequency Regions: - No modal boost: 1hz to 31hz - Room Modes dominate: 31hz to 103hz - Diffraction and Diffusion dominate: 103hz to 412hz - Specular reflections and ray accoustics prevail: 412hz to 20000hz Count (31.3-184hz) : Axials=12, Tangentials=47, Obliques=60 Count (31.3-100hz) : Axials=6, Tangentials=8, Obliques=3 Critical Distance (direct = reverberant field): 15.40ft If I'm reading this correctly, would this be the area that I would need to worry about the low end? Frequency Regions: - No modal boost: 1hz to 31hz - Room Modes dominate: 31hz to 103hz - Diffraction and Diffusion dominate: 103hz to 412hz - Specular reflections and ray acoustics prevail: 412hz to 20000hz I have read that it's not recommended to stick to room modes and ratios, but to use them as a starting point. Sorry for all the ridiculous noob questions, and I do appreciate all of your help and advice. Thanks guys in advance.

Bump again.. :( Back to the books and research, and need to get some pictures of the place in here soon, even though we can't start yet on anything... still waiting for the green light by the city.