Planning my home studio from the ground up: How much area?

Started by Blazer79 on 16 December 2011. 9 replies, 2011–2012.

Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 17262.

Hello. This is my first post here. Allow me to introduce myself. I live in Guatemala, Central America. I'm 37. I develop software for a living. Music is my passion. I'm a bass player that can also play drums, guitars and a little keyboards and some singing. I currently don't even own a drum set only because I don't have the right space for it. I've always dreamt of having my own studio where I can make all the noise I want without disturbing neighbors or even my family. You have no idea how happy I am because I'm in the last stage of buying a nice piece of land where I'm going to build my house and the home studio I've always dreamt (and a garage for restoring my Camaro and Blazer, since I'm a weekend mechanic and love american muscle cars). :D My property is 26.4mts x 26.4mts (86.8' x 86.8'). Here are some pics: It starts right besides the pole all the way to the furthest corner. Width is exactly like the stained wall on the back. A view from the other corner. A few photos stitched toghether, creating sort of a fisheye effect: I've bought and read Rod Gervais' book. Helped a lot. Only thing is I think is more oriented towards trying to adapt an existing space into a studio. I have the golden oportunity of building it right from the start. I've realized that It's too early to go into a full studio design details right now. But what I need your help for right now, is mainly two things: 1) Determining the minimum area to leave for studio space. 2) Determining if I should build walls in awkward angles or build a box and do the angled treatment inside. I know this only generates more questions, but I'll try to answer as much as I can. Right now I don't know how much area my house will need because the first thing the architect asked me is how much area will your studio use. :? What I want is a small but great sounding studio (who doesn't). A studio with quality high enough so that when I retire, I can dedicate to music production and be able to do great recordings in it. But I can't make it as big as big name studios. I need to leave space for the rest of the house, for yard, and for my personal garage. I just need a live room where a typical 4-5 member rock band with double-bass drum drum set can fit comfortably. I'm not planning on recording an orchestra. Of course I also need a comfortable mixing room. Not sure if I really need an isolation room. Read somewhere that vocals sound better in live room anyway. What I would like is to have one of those live rooms with a very high ceiling. They are supposed to sound better. I just don't have any idea of how much is high enough. A few questions: -Would 12 feet ceilings force me to have a large area in order to have the correct ratios? -Is the high ceiling necessary only in the live room? Or in the mixing room too? -How do you calculate the shape of the ceilings? I've seen some awesome photos of studios where the shape of the ceiling is very special. Most sketches I see are as seen from above. So there's no reference to the shape of the ceiling. I'm doing some ideas on Sketchup. Just ideas I did myself, nothing final here. Haven't gone through the architect either. If I put my studio in the red area, what dimensions would you choose? In this example is 12m x 6m. But it could also be 11.5m x 6.5m, 9m x 7m, 12 x 7.2m, ..., etc. How do you come up with a final number? What if I built the studio above the cars? like in an attic? How do vaulted ceilings affect the studios? Are they more or less desirable? Now for some feedback: -In my country most constructions are made with cinder blocks and concrete. The first picture exactly how that is done. Part of the wall on the left hasn't been covered. -I can also use brick and mortar construction, which is readily available. Only slightly more expensive. -As much as I like wood constructions, I need to try to use the least wood. This is because lumber shops can't guarantee wood isn't cut and smuggled from our natural rainforests. -Gypsum is readily available. What I can't seem to find is the famous green glue. Any alternatives? Sorry for the long post. Any feedback will be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Hola Blazer, y bienvenido! :) También tenemos un foro en español, pero tu inglés es excelente, y por lo tanto probablmente será mejor continuar aquí: hay mucho más pérsonas en el foro en inglés. You have a great space, and a fantastic opportunity to start from the ground up! You are making me real jealous with that! :) Lucky guy! Regarding your basic questions: Area: The ITU and EBU recommendations for critical listening rooms (eg. studio control rooms) is for a minimum of 45 m3 total room volume. They don't specify shape, but that is based roughly on a rectangle with 10 foot ceilings (+/- 3m). That implies roughly 15 m2 floor area, or roughly 5 x 3. But that's not carved in stone! There are many, many variations here. There are different "schools" of studio design, with different shapes, ratios, sizes, angles etc. Most can be made to sound good. What you'll find most recommended here on the forum is a roughly rectangular shape, possibly with spayed walls (angled) and possibly with an angled ceiling, using the RFZ concept as the basis (RFZ = "Reflection Free Zone") That's the most common way of doing things, and will give you a great sounding studio.
Determining if I should build walls in awkward angles or build a box and do the angled treatment inside.
Yes. No. Maybe. :) In other words, either will work, but there are pros and cons. The reason why you might NOT want to angle the walls and ceiling, is to make it dead easy to build. Many studios are plain rectangles. The reason why you might WANT to angle them in the control room, is make a proper Reflection Free Zone, where the shape of the room is specifically designed to deflect reflections past your head and around you, so that you can ONLY hear the perfect, clear, pristine sound direct from the speakers, without it being muddied by reflections. With that design (recommended) you design the room to hear nothing but the speakers. The first reflections should arrive at your head at least 10 db below the direct sound, and at least 10ms later, (preferably 15 down, 15 later). You might also want to angle walls to eliminate flutter echo, and for other acoustic reasons, especially in the live room (tracking room). There are pros and cons both ways. RFZ will get you the best possible sounding room, especially if you flush-mount your speakers ("soffit mount"). But it makes things harder to calculate and predict in advance, and a bit harder to build (but not much harder!). Like most things in acoustics, it is all a trade off: You decide what fits you best, and live with the consequences.
I just need a live room where a typical 4-5 member rock band with double-bass drum drum set can fit comfortably.
OK, that implies that you need good isolation ("soundproofing"). A full acoustic drum kit can easily put out 115 dB. Your studio is right on the property line, so you need to isolate that down to whatever the legal limit is for your area. Call your local municipality and get a copy of the noise regulations. The difference between that number and 115 dB is your design goal for isolation. That number will dictate possible construction methods. The construction method that you choose will dictate the amount of space that your walls and ceiling take up. That in turn will dictate the size of the slab on which you will build your studio in order to get the amount of floor area and volume that you need. Etc. As you can see, there is a basic procedure that you should follow, that will sort of lead you to the design. First you need to set your goals and basic design concept, get your numbers in order, figure your techniques, figure your budget, and the rest will fall into place.
Not sure if I really need an isolation room. Read somewhere that vocals sound better in live room anyway.
Iso booths have their uses, especially if you will ever need to record two things together, such as vocals with a band, or an electric guitar cab with drums, etc. If you will never need to do that, then you don't need a booth.
-Would 12 feet ceilings force me to have a large area in order to have the correct ratios?
Not necessarily: Some ratios allow for long or wide rooms with lower or higher ceilings, and in any case ratios are not extremely important. Sometimes people get all hooked up on trying to perfect a ratio down to the last cm, but that really is not necessary at all! The idea with ratios is to stay away from the bad ones and get close to a good one, and you are done. Period. Don't get hooked on something that isn't too important. Besides, if your room is not rectangular (splayed walls, angled ceiling), then ratios are meaningless anyway: Ratios only apply to rectangles, not any other shape. As soon as you angle something in the room, then you can no longer use the normal equations for predicting modal responses that involve that particular wall. So for example, if you angle just your ceiling then you can no longer predict anything involving the vertical axis, but you can still predict x and y axials and tangentials: just not the z axials or tangentials, and no obliques that involve the ceiling. But that isn't a bad thing! Once again, people get too hung up on trying to predict every last aspect of the room, when in reality that is somewhat a waste of time, since the actual room will most likely not behave exactly as predicted anyway! You will still need to measure the response of the room after it is built, in order to decide what treatment you need. That goes without saying. So don't rely on prediction too much, since even minor variations in the actual construction can change the response. So just do basic prediction to get things roughly right, then after the shell is built run a full acoustic analysis of the room BEFORE you put any treatment in it, then put the initial treatment in and run the test again, to see what more needs to be done.
Is the high ceiling necessary only in the live room? Or in the mixing room too?
Height is good! Make the rooms as high as you can, within reason. But if you have to choose, it is more important to have height in the live room. Especially if you want to record drums.
-How do you calculate the shape of the ceilings?
Depends on what you want to do! For flutter echo, at least 12°. For RFZ, that depends on the rest of the design, but most likely 15° or more. You also do not need to angle the entire ceiling: It is possible to do just the front part, and leave the rest flat. Therea are many options.
If I put my studio in the red area, what dimensions would you choose? In this example is 12m x 6m. But it could also be 11.5m x 6.5m, 9m x 7m, 12 x 7.2m, ..., etc. How do you come up with a final number?
Yes! No! Maybe! :) Once again, it depends on what you want to do! If you need to record large groups, go with a bigger live room. If you need great acoustic sound on instruments, then go with a larger live room. If your priority is getting top quality mixes, then go with a bigger control room. If you will also be mastering, then go with a bigger control room. The good news is that you have plenty of space! With 12m x6m, I could easily come up with a design for a nice large control room with good ratio and acoustics, suitable for mastering, plus a good size live room suitable for a 5 member band plus at least one iso booth, good for either vocals or for a guitar cab, and possibly also a second vocal booth. That's a nice size.
What if I built the studio above the cars? like in an attic?
Not a good idea. Studios need a LOT of mass! Putting it on the second floor implies major support structure below. Expensive. But you could build it on the ground floor, and build part of your house above it! :)
-In my country most constructions are made with cinder blocks and concrete.
Yup. Just like where I live (Chile). That's good! Great isolation, good acoustics.
I can also use brick and mortar construction, which is readily available.
Also very good.
-Gypsum is readily available.
Good too!
What I can't seem to find is the famous green glue. Any alternatives?
You probably don't need it. I wouldn't worry about it. - Stuart -
Gracias Soundman por tu respuesta tan detallada. Aquí estoy a tus órdenes en Guatemala por si vienes algún día. Estaré pendiente del foro en español. :wink: I'm glad you consider my area enough for what I want. I'll definitely want soffited speakers, and maybe 50/50 for live/mixing room areas. You mention not to get hooked on the small details that may not mean that much in the end. I understand that if I were to design the studio myself, but will hiring a designer as John S. give me the necessary attention to small details? I know I'd have to be responsible of building it exactly to spec. To put it in another way. If I were to paint my car myself, I know I'd have to leave out some details because I'm no pro at that. But if I take my car to a professional painter, I'd expect a near-perfect paint job, and is up to me to mantain it that way. Is that how things work? I'm really not trying to be an ass or anything. I just don't want to build my studio the "latino" way (no offense to any other latinos here) where most things are done just until they are OK, not until they are perfect. I see a lot in my country and I would be proud of a studio that would stand out among the rest. Another question that crosses my head. If you compare two live rooms, do you consider better the one with more natural reverb? I know there are lots of "in betweens", but is there a limit on this? For example, is a cathedral too big? I've never been to a big name studio. But can somebody that has been there maybe make a reference on how the live room sounds approximately? eg. 1 Sec plate reverb, or 3 sec room reveb, etc. Or come up with some other way to describe it? Maybe "generally considered to sound great" would be a better description than "big name studio". :wink: Something that I've been searching and is only available in large special orders is rockwool (a truckload at least). Is fiberglass a good replacement? Any other suggestion? Or should I definitely find get rockwool? If so, I could look forward into importing it myself directly from another country. That would lower the cost considerably. Any other names or brands for rockwool in the construction business? Maybe I'm just having a hard time finding it because it goes by another name/brand. Thanks again, and any more advice is more than welcome.
¡Nunca he ido a Guatemala! Lo mas circa ha sido Panamá, creo. Si alguna vez voy por allá, definitivamente iré a visitarte! Yo have the right idea about the design, for sure. If you were to hire John or one of the other people here who design studios, yes, you would get a design with attention to all of the details, or as many as you want. (The design fee would depend on how much of the design you want them to do.) I'd suggest that you should e-mail or PM John directly, and ask for his quote for designing your studio. I heard he is busy with a large job right now, so if he can't take on your job then let me know. But what I was talking about with getting hung up on the details of ratios, is that you don't need to do that anyway: ratios are only part of the whole design concept, and only apply to totally rectangular rooms anyway. If you have any angled walls, then ratios become meaningless and you need to use FEM/FEA to analyze the room, which is a lot more complicated. And ratios are only a guideline, to get you started. They help to get your design in the right general area, but beyond that they are not important. Yes, many internet web sites do tell you to go crazy with ratios, and get them correct down the last mm, but that is NOT necessary. For those of us who actually understand the basics of acoustics, it is clear that you ratios are not what makes a studio great or lousy: they are a part of that, but if you just design a studio to a perfect Sepmeyer or Bolt ratio, without paying attention to all the other details, then it will most likely work out pretty lousy. What I was saying is: ratios are not the most important thing. Just use them to stay away from bad ones, and get close to a good one. It's like the so-called "38% rule": that is also not written in stone, just a good guideline. The same for "splay your walls 6°". That might or might not work, depending on may other things. Designing a studio is not just about following a set of fixed, rigid rules: if you did that, you could still end up with a lousy studio (and very likely would). Designing a studio is a lot more than just a handful of rules. And in any event, no matter how much you follow the "rules", you will STILL need to actually test the acoustics once the basic structure is complete, in order to see how it REALLY behaves, and so you can design the real treatment. If you designed the treatment based only on prediction, I can guarantee that it would turn out pretty bad, because even minor variations during the building process can have major effects on how it actually works. It will never be exactly as predicted. So you always need to run an acoustic test before treating, and normally you treat in stages, running several tests in between each stage and the next, to "tweak" the room until you get it right. Reality seldom matches theory.
If I were to paint my car myself, I know I'd have to leave out some details because I'm no pro at that. But if I take my car to a professional painter, I'd expect a near-perfect paint job, and is up to me to mantain it that way. Is that how things work?
Exactly! That's the way it works with studios, too. If you want it done right and don't have the time or inclination to learn how yourself (it takes years), then you hire someone who already knows, to do it for you, and let them worry about all the little details that you might not even think of. And there are LOTS of details like that! Changing what seems like a minor detail in the design can have major repercussions somewhere else, that you never even considered. That's why you might want to hire someone who knows, to do it right.
I'm really not trying to be an ass or anything. I just don't want to build my studio the "latino" way (no offense to any other latinos here) where most things are done just until they are OK, not until they are perfect. I see a lot in my country and I would be proud of a studio that would stand out among the rest.
Not an ass at all! Rather, I'd say you are being very smart about your approach. I'm Australian, but I've lived in Chile for nearly 30 years, so I know EXACTLY what you are talking about with the Latino mentality. It's very frustrating, sometimes. You never get used to it, even after so much time. I totally get what you are saying! So here is an important point: the design might be fantastic, but the actual BUILD is just as important. You will need to either do the work yourself, or hire an excellent contractor to do it, and even then you'll have to be all over them, all the time, double checking everything. Just like with the design, lack of attention to detail in the actual construction can damage or destroy the isolation or acoustics of your studio. For example, if the maestro forget to seal under one of the walls, and there is a tiny crack, just 2 mm wide and meter long, then the isolation of that wall will be cut in half, or worse: it will not isolate at all. Simple, tiny mistake, major consequences. Or if your design has tuned slot walls in it, and the maestro doesn't bother to measure the gaps between the slats, or uses the wrong thickness, then it will treat the WRONG frequencies and will NOT treat the right ones, so the acoustics will be terrible. Or if the design has a panel trap that needs 6mm plywood, but the maestro doesn't have any on hand and decides to use 9mm instead.... well, that destroys the entire purpose of the trap: it will no longer absorb the frequency it was designed for, and instead will absorb one that does not actually need absorbing at all! Etc. So attention to detail in the construction is just as important as attention to detail in the design. You will need to supervise carefully, and each day send lots of photos of the build in progress to the designer, so he can check that the maestros are doing things right, and not trying to cut corners or do it the Latino way. That's why we always insist on so many photos here. It's a good way to spot problems and errors in the build, before it is too late.
If you compare two live rooms, do you consider better the one with more natural reverb?
That depends on what you are trying to do, what your design goals are, and what type (genre) of music you will be recording. If you plan to record Baroque orchestras, pipe organs, and 200 person choirs singing Handl or Bach, then yes, you'd need a place with 2, 3, or 4 second longer reverb times, or even longer. On the other hand, if you are recording soft, breathy, sexy, romantic Jazz vocals, then you might want reverb times under 400 ms. Plus, it isn't just the total reverb time that matters: it is the reverb time in each octave or frequency band that matters. There are guidelines and "rules" for the RT in each band, for each of the various types of music and sizes of room. It would be a bit complicated to go into all the details here, but the guy who designs your studio should know all about that, and will ask you detailed questions about the type of music you want to record, the types of instruments, types of vocals, how many at a time, etc. He will also probably suggest more than one live room if you have diverse needs, such as maybe a separate drum booth, vocal booth, guitar booth, piano room, etc., or he might even suggest variable acoustic treatment in the live room(s), so you can modify the acoustic response as needed, changing it for different types of recording. There are many options, and a good designer will take them all into account, and interrogate you about your design goals. The control room is a different matter: that is fairly well defined, and needs to be flat, neutral and with well controlled reverb times, but the live rooms can be whatever you want it to be, depending on your needs.
I know there are lots of "in betweens", but is there a limit on this? For example, is a cathedral too big?
Nope! A cathedral is the perfect size... for a pipe organ, symphony orchestra, and/or large choir playing music that needs long reverb times. But a cathedral would be a terrible place to record jazz, rock, pop, rap, gospel, techno, or a bunch of other genres. And the same applies in reverse: a room with reverb of 600 ms would be good for some of those genres, but totally inappropriate for the orchestra and choir doing a recital oc Bach's Brandenburg Concertos. In other words, it all depends on what you plan to do! That's the job of the designer; to take into account your needs, and design a room that meets those.
But can somebody that has been there maybe make a reference on how the live room sounds approximately? eg. 1 Sec plate reverb, or 3 sec room reveb, etc.
Once again, it depends. Some studios have long RTs, others sort, based on what the normally record in there. Some have variable acoustics. The general tendency these days is to have a room that is NOT dead, and has some character to it. But one key point is that the natural RT of the control room must be a little shorter than the natural RT of the live rooms. If not, you would never hear the tails of the live room during the mix. But once again, these are all points that the designer will take into account.
Something that I've been searching and is only available in large special orders is rockwool (a truckload at least). Is fiberglass a good replacement?
Fiberglass is fine too. Mineral wool and fiberglass are the two most-common materials. They have slightly different characteristics, so fiberglass needs to be a little less dense than mineral wool, but once again the designer will take that into account in the design, and will specify what type, what density, what thickness, etc. in his design specs.
Or should I definitely find get rockwool?
Not necessary. If you can't get mineral wool and can only get fiberglass, then fiberglass is fine. Not a problem. Look for stuff with density in the range 20 kg/m3 to 40 kg/m3, roughly. If you can get it in semi-rigid panels (like OC-703) that that is great. If not, then no problem.
Any other names or brands for rockwool in the construction business?
"Rockwool" is a brand name. The generic name is "mineral wool", or "lana mineral" in Spanish. Anyway, I'd suggest that you start by sending a message to John by e-mail or PM, and ask him to quote for your project. If he can't take it on, then PM me for more options. Saludos! - Stuart -
Hola. I hope your studio is going well! I am also involved in the very beginning of building a studio in Guatemala - I live in Antigua and we have space to build a studio but nothing exists in this space yet. So, we will also be building from the ground up. Because Antigua is so small and there is no soundproofing, this is one of our biggest concerns. Blazer, what did you use to soundproof your studio? Where did you find good quality materials in Guatemala? We were thinking about contacting one of the companies that makes beds and buying some foam from then. Any advice, especially about soundproofing, would be most helpful! Gracias. Scott
Hi Scott. Welcome to the forum, but please check the forum rules for posting: You seem to be missing something important! :)
We were thinking about contacting one of the companies that makes beds and buying some foam from then.
That type of foam is probably useless, acoustically. The type of foam used in mattresses and upholstery is usually "closed cell" foam, which means that, at the microscopic level, it is something like air bubbles surrounded by foam walls all around, so air cannot move through it. That is no use, for acoustic purposes. For acoustics, you need "open cell" insulation, such as fiberglass, mineral wool, and things like that. At the microscopic level, open-cell insulation is more like tiny fibers, or sometimes like "bubbles that have burst open", and there is free passage for air to move through it. Also, it is a common misconception that foam, insulation, polystyrene, and things like that can be used to "soundproof" a room: they cannot. They do not stop sound, and that is not their purpose. Those materials are used as acoustic treatment on the walls and ceiling of the room, to make the room sound good, but they do nothing to stop sound getting in and out. "Soundproofing" (more correctly called "isolation") and treatment are two totally different things. You cannot stop sound with light, soft, fluffy materials. You can only stop sound with heavy, rigid, massive, solid materials, such as brick, concrete, glass, drywall (gypsum board), plywood, MDF, and things like that. The normal way of building a studio is with two walls made of those materials, with a an air gap between them. That is the best way to soundproof (isolate) a room at reasonable cost. There are other ways, but they are way too expensive and complicated for the average home studio builder. So a simple two-leaf wall with a single air gap is the best and cheapest.
Any advice, especially about soundproofing, would be most helpful!
That's what this forum is here for! To provide advise on how to build a studio properly, based on the principles of physics and the science of acoustics. There are quite a few place on the internet that claim to teach you how to build a studio, but not many that actually teach you the RIGHT way to do it, based on correct principles and solid research. That's what this forum is all about. You won't find any hype, myths, legends, egg-crates-on-the-walls or carpets-on-the-ceiling here. You won't find anyone trying to sell you products, either: What you will find is the best advise on the Internet on studio building. So feel free to start your own thread about your studio here, and ask all you want, as well as using the "search" feature and looking at some of the studios that other people here have already built. Building a studio is a process, and it takes a bit of time to learn the basics, but there's a whole bunch of people here who have done it already, and can help you out. - Stuart -
Hi. This is a very helpful forum for this project. I specifically replied to Blazer because he is in Guatemala City, and that is where I am living too (or near Guatemala City). The materials mentioned in the forum can be very difficult to find so I was hoping to find out from Blazer how the building went, where he found his materials, etc. I have found lots of helpful information to think about as we start our studio but I'd like to hear from Blazer as to where he went for the materials themselves. Thanks. Scott
I'm back! I've been away for a while, mostly working in my daytime job (software development) and getting the funds to build my studio. No, I haven't started building it yet. Sorry to disappoint you Baterista. But I have many friends involved in the construction business, including my father-in-law, so if I can be of any help just give me a holler. Soundman, I never got to say thank you for all your valuable advice in these thread. I just re-read it and I really appreciate how much detail you put into your response. I've been saving and maybe, just maybe I can start the studio construction now. So I'm ready to ask for a quote from the man. Let's see if it's within my reach. I have absolutely no idea how much he can charge for his services. Let's see how it goes. The thing is that I also need an architect to start designing my house, so he needs to know at least the area for the studio. So that's why I need at least the plans for now. Thanks again!
Good to see you back, Blazer! I was wondering what happened with your build. Looking forward to seeing things start to happen! :) Suerte! - Stuart -