I have been reading with great interest and awe, some of the threads on the forum, especially some of the designs that are coming to life in the construction thread. I have gleaned lots of information which is still sinking into my rather slow working noggin (comes with age), and I also have Rod's book to try and learn as much as I can. Meantime I wondered if any of the good folks on this forum could assist with my learning.
Background]
I have found a good space within which my aim is to create two rehearsal spaces , and a control room. The main room is just over 13m long, and 5m wide. This is where I would create the rehearsal spaces.
The other room where I would position the control room is 5m long, just under 3 wide. ( this room is running opposite direction to the main room for this scenario. The new rehearsal room being created nearest the control room would also double as a tracking room.
The initial budget for materials is around £800 UK pounds. Work being completed by me and mates. The fact that these are rehearsal spaces then assume all genres of music.
I have attacked two files, (Studio) shows space as exits now)
and Rehearsal Recording which shows what I intend to do
The buildings are both brick built outer walls, and the control room is an extension off the main building with the wall between being brick also. (Hopefully my sketchup will show this. clearly enough.) They are finished off inside with stud/plasterboard(gypsum) boards interior( not shown in the sketchup)
The building is in an industrial estate and noise levels from surrounding businesses is not a factor(store rooms, retail) and likewise the noise created from the rehearsal rooms eminating outwith the building is not my main focus just now. There is nothing below or above this building, and the adjacent space is owned by the landlord who has no issue with sound spilling into there. The wall between the two is again brick.
My questions are related to the creation of the rehearsal spaces within the main room. Hopefully I can make my questions succinct and to the point in order that any help is easier to give.
The main room has floorboards sitting on joists at present upon which I am looking to build the rooms in question. After reading so much about floors and the various ways of doing these, I hate to admit it :oops: but I am beginning to struggle to understand the best way for me to approach this task.
Question
Would this cause a problem if I built the frames for the new rooms directly onto the existing floor? What would be the other options in this case?
The next area I have questions regarding is the new stud frames themselves. I think I am clear in my head regarding what constitutes a two leaf scenario etc and as such intended to use the existing walls as part of the structure of the new rooms i.e. Connect the newly created frames to the existing studs which are attached to the interior of the brick walls (hope this makes sense)
Question
Is this the right way to be thinking , i.e. that the existing stud and brick walls form a 2 leaf wall on the sides I am looking to use these?
Whilst on the subject of The new walls being created, I have in the sketchup, detailed a double wall on one of the rooms, whereas a single wall on the other. This is mainly down to my inexperience with sketchup and the time it took to get to this stage. The main isolation I am looking for I suppose is between the two rehearsal rooms, and then between rehearsal space and control room. Remembering that the wall separating the control room is brick ......
Question
Would the two rooms benefit from both having the double wall to reduce leakage to the control room, or would staggered stud option be the best on the room nearest the control room?
Also in this respect, what would be the best option regards the build ofthe rehearsal room walls - plasterboard gypsum on both sides with insulation/ airgap in the middle, with treatment in the rooms, or building one of the walls in each room inside out to make use of the space better?
Lastly at present, comes the subject of the roof of these rooms. Presently there is a false ceiling in the main room which will be removed.Re building the roofs/ ceilings onto these new rehearsal rooms, I cannot get my head round this at present. I will definitely contimue my reading and rereading of this forum and Rod's book to try and better my knowledge but again, any help in this area would be greatly appreciated specifically the best options for this based on all the previous info above.
Also as a caveat, my sketchup skills are limited at present thus the placing and sizing of some things I realise is not as should be, however once I have more knowledge around my queries, and also sketchup itself, I can address these.
Apologies for the long post, hopefully this does not deter anyone from chipping in any words of wisdom, pointers in the right direction etc. Many thanks in advance for any help that can be offered
Rehearsal Space / Recording Space - Help with Design
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 17257.
I wondered whether anyone had a chance to have a look at the plans I have and has any comment, suggestions.
Any input is greatly appreciated. The larger of the two sketchup attachments details what I intend to do with the space - the one entitled studio is just the space as stands just now.
If I have left out any pertinent info, please let me know and I will endeavour to sort that.
many thanks
Liam
Hi Liam. Welcome!
I guess you are missing a zero from that figure? I imagine it should have been "8,000" not "800". I can't see you doing much at all with 800 pounds in 80 square meters! :shock:The initial budget for materials is around £800 UK pounds.
I see the two different files, but I don't see the relationship between them. Are they physically in the same building? Are they adjacent in some manner, sharing a common wall? If so, maybe you could combine them all into one file, to get an overview of the entire layout. The buildings are both brick built outer walls, ... finished off inside with stud/plasterboard(gypsum) boards interior( not shown in the sketchup). So you already have two-leaf walls? Are you planning to at least take the drywall (plasterboard) off those inner walls before proceeding to build your studio? Are you aware of the potential issues with 3-leaf and 4-leaf walls.The buildings are both brick built outer walls, and the control room is an extension off the main building with the wall between being brick also.
That seems to imply that this studio will not be on the ground floor, but rather on some level above ground?there is nothing below or above this building,
You will probably need to get a structural engineer to answer this question: how much load are those joists supporting right now, and how much more can then handle safely? That is a very, very important point.The main room has floorboards sitting on joists at present upon which I am looking to build the rooms in question.
You say you don't need any isolation at all, so it won't be a problem from the isolation point of view (it would be a problem if you needed to isolate the rooms from each other, or from the control room, or from the building). However, it might be a problem from the structural point of view, which is why you need a qualified professional engineer to come and look at what you have, and tell you how much extra weight you can add to the existing structure safely. You CANNOT just go ahead and build without first doing this: that would be foolhardy. You need a qualified structural engineer to do a physical survey, and put down in writing his findings and recommendations. Do not proceed until you have that in place.Would this cause a problem if I built the frames for the new rooms directly onto the existing floor?
One again, the structural engineer will be able to tell you that, but if the current structure cannot take the added load, then you will need to reinforce it somehow. He's the guy to tell you how to do that, after looking at your building.What would be the other options in this case?
The existing walls are already 2-leaf, but they are not decoupled and are not isolating well. Even so, you cannot add anything to them without creating a 3- or 4- leaf system.I think I am clear in my head regarding what constitutes a two leaf scenario etc and as such intended to use the existing walls as part of the structure of the new rooms
If you do that, then you are not decoupling, which is the most important thing you need to do.Connect the newly created frames to the existing studs which are attached to the interior of the brick walls (hope this makes sense)
Yes they do, but no you cannot use them as they are, since they are not decoupled and are not isolating. They are probably not built correctly for the type of application you have in mind, You will need to dismantle them partially and re-build them correctly, best case, or just take them out completely and build news, worst case (but probably easier in the long run).Is this the right way to be thinking , i.e. that the existing stud and brick walls form a 2 leaf wall on the sides I am looking to use these?
Whoa!!!! You first said that you don't need any isolation, but now you say that you DO need isolation! :shock: So which is it? Do you need isolation or not? :?: And if so, then how much? This is the basis of your entire design! You need to know how loud you will be in each of those rooms, and how quiet it needs to be in the other rooms when each is peaking at its maximum. THAT is what will define how you build your walls, not guesswork. You need to put real numbers on your isolation needs, in terms of how many decibels of isolation are required. That number will define the types of construction that are open to you, to attain that level of isolation. That, in turn, defines how much the walls, doors, windows and ceilings will weigh, which defines the total mass that you will be putting on top of the existing joists and floor, which is critical information that your structural engineer will need to know in order to give you answers! In other words, you seem to be going about this build a bit backwards! You need to start by defining the amount of isolation you need, then based on that figure out what type of materials and techniques you will need to get it, then figure out the total weight of all those materials, then call your structural engineer to find out if you can, in fact, put that much extra mass on the existing structure, or if you need to beef it up somehow. That's the procedure you need to put in place. You cannot start with a wall plan, not knowing if it will do what you want, or even if it can be built...The main isolation I am looking for I suppose is between the two rehearsal rooms, and then between rehearsal space and control room.
Once again, that depends on your NUMBERS: A) "How loud are you?" B) "How quiet do you need to be?". Subtract B from A to get your number. Then look at things like IR-761, IR-832, IR-811, IR-766, IR-586, and IR-754, to figure out a good construction method that gives you the amount of isolation you need. You'll probably find several methods that you could use, so chose the one that you think is easiest and least expensive for you to do, and go with that. It might be staggered studs, it might be RC, it might be separate frames, it might even be single frame.... it all depends on your numbers. Without those, you have nothing. No point of departure. No base line. That should be your very first step: figure out your numbers.Would the two rooms benefit from both having the double wall to reduce leakage to the control room, or would staggered stud option be the best on the room nearest the control room?
Ummmmm.... that's two different and independent things you are talking about! You can build walls inside out, or not, as needed, and that has nothing to do with isolation. Isolation is determined by the mass on each leaf and the air gap, not by which side you put the studs on. The equations for MSM resonance do not even consider studs at all: they simply assume two leaves of mass and an air cavity between. How you support that mass is up to you. If you want to support it "normally" or "inside out" on one side, or "inside out" on both sides, is totally irrelevant to the isolation itself. That's just a preference that you need to figure out, based on other issues. Whether or not you build inside-out has no effect on isolation, provided that you have the same air gap and mass.what would be the best option regards the build ofthe rehearsal room walls - plasterboard gypsum on both sides with insulation/ airgap in the middle, with treatment in the rooms, or building one of the walls in each room inside out to make use of the space better?
What is above the false ceiling? The roof of the building, or another floor above you? Hopefully, it is just another floor.Presently there is a false ceiling in the main room which will be removed.
Well, before you get to considering that, you need to consider the "what is up there?" question! That's the key. Whatever it is needs to be sealed air-tight, and perhaps beefed up with additional mass (consult your structural engineer on that point, too). Only once you have that done, can you start thinking about your new inner leaf. That isn't complex: You will have a new set of stud walls, your inner-leaf walls, which are only attached to the existing floor, and do not touch any part of the existing structure. You simply put new joists across the tops of those new walls, and put new drywall on them (either above or below, depending on if you want your ceiling inside-out or not). Done! :) - Stuart -Re building the roofs/ ceilings onto these new rehearsal rooms, I cannot get my head round this at present.
Hi Stuart, thanks very much for your reply and input.
Hopefully I can clarify some points from my original post and then pick your brains again.
Re the two sketchup files, these were meant to represent the same building, i.e one showing the place as it is at present (studio) and the other with the space showing what I intended to do - I hope this clears up the layout.I see the two different files, but I don't see the relationship between them. Are they physically in the same building? Are they adjacent in some manner, sharing a common wall? If so, maybe you could combine them all into one file, to get an overview of the entire layout.
This building is all on ground level, sorry for the confusion. There is a small space under the joists which increases from one end of the room to the other as the building is built on a small slope.there is nothing below or above this building, That seems to imply that this studio will not be on the ground floor, but rather on some level above ground?
I have a mate who does that very thing - will look at that soonest. As its's a one storey build, does that improve things or does that not really come into the equation?You will probably need to get a structural engineer to answer this question: how much load are those joists supporting right now, and how much more can then handle safely? That is a very, very important point.
Sorry if I caused confusion, I mentioned that I was not concerned with sound going outwith the building, but I do need to isolate as much as possible the sound between the two rehearsal rooms and also from the rehearsal rooms to the control room.Whoa!!!! You first said that you don't need any isolation, but now you say that you DO need isolation!
The original ceiling of the room is above the false ceiling, and is about 12ft roughly. This is sealed and insulated above and has a pitched roof above. Hopefully the above clarifies some of the things i did not explain too well originally. So based on your comments, The maximum room level in each rehearsal room will be for a band and I dont want the band next door to hear the other clearly, so I will read up on that a bit more, thanks. If I did use the existing stud for the outer wall (removing plasterboard as you suggest to rebuild it as required), and built a new inner wall, would this not make the brick wall of the building the third leaf? Or am I misunderstanding this whole concept. Does the third Leaf only come into effect when it is part of the sealed new room. Think my head is gonna burst. Why did you say hopefully another floor? Is this significant? On a happier note, I have found second hand solid core wood fire doors (2 are 1 3/4" and the other considerably thicker.) for £30. Re the rest of the budget I quoted, I can get materials at trade price and there is no labour costs - also only looking at the rehearsal rooms at present. The control room is only being looked at once the rehearsal rooms are up and running. Thanks again for showing an interest Stuart, all appreciated. Need as much help as I can whilst I try to get my head around all this. LiamWhat is above the false ceiling? The roof of the building, or another floor above you? Hopefully, it is just another floor.
Ahhh! OK, got it. From the original explanation I thought they were two separate rooms. I get it now.Re the two sketchup files, these were meant to represent the same building, i.e one showing the place as it is at present (studio) and the other with the space showing what I intended to do - I hope this clears up the layout.
OK, so it is ground floor construction, with subfloor on joists and a crawl space below. You'll need that qualified structural engineer mate of yours to take a look at that, and tell you how much extra mass you can safely add, in total. Hopefully, the structure is tough enough to do that without needing any modification. Even though he is your mate, you'll still need him to put it in writing, since that will most likely be needed for your building permit and inspections.This building is all on ground level, sorry for the confusion. There is a small space under the joists which increases from one end of the room to the other as the building is built on a small slope.
I'm assuming that "band" means a typical acoustic rock band, with drums, bass, electric guitars, keyboards and vocals? So we are talking about levels of upwards of 110 dB in each studio, maybe hitting 120, peak? Does that sound about right? You also say that you want to isolate well enough that band "A" cannot hear band "B"? That's a pretty tall order! To put it in perspective: To make 120 dB inaudible on the other side of a wall, you need at least 80 dB of isolation. A normal house wall with 2x4 studs and a sheet of 1/2" drywall on each side will get you about 30 dB of isolation. The decibel scale is logarithmic, so each time you go up ten points, you are talking about ten times the energy. Going from 30 dB of isolation to 80 dB of isolation means that the wall has to be 10,000 times better at blocking sound. Yup, ten thousand times. It must absorb or block ten thousand times as much sound energy as an ordinary house wall. This can be done, but is not easy. The isolation plan has to be designed carefully, and the studio has to be built carefully, with good attention to detail. The isolation is also going to take up a lot of space, and be very heavy. And you cannot attain such a high level with two rooms sharing the same simple "wooden-subfloor-on-joist" floor. Sorry to say this, but the simple fact is that, no matter how good your walls are, the sound will flank through that floor between studios, bypassing the walls. Regardless of how well you do everything else, the floor is just not up to the task. There are options, but they are not cheap. Definitely not do-able on an budget of 800, unfortunately.The maximum room level in each rehearsal room will be for a band and I dont want the band next door to hear the other clearly, so I will read up on that a bit more, thanks.
Why? Your brick wall will be leaf #1, and the drywall on the new set of studs will be leaf #2. I don't see where the third leaf is. My comment about "dismantle partially and rebuild correctly" assumed that you don't need isolation. That's why I also added: "... or just take them out completely and build news, worst case (but probably easier in the long run).". That's for the case where you do need isolation: take out your existing stud walls completely, leaving only the the brick wall as leaf #1. Then build a frame several inches away from that, and put drywall on only ONE side of the frame (not both sides). You will need several layers of drywall to get such a high level of isolation, but the all go on the SAME side of the studs. That is leaf #2 (built up from several layers of drywall). There is no third leaf.If I did use the existing stud for the outer wall (removing plasterboard as you suggest to rebuild it as required), and built a new inner wall, would this not make the brick wall of the building the third leaf?
Both leaves have to be sealed in order to work properly as a tune MSM isolation wall, but the third leaf effect does not require sealing in order to occur. Any time you have a large massive surface separated from another large massive surface by an air gap, you have a resonant system. So it doesn't need to be sealed in order to resonate, but it does need to be sealed in order to work as an isolation wall.Does the third Leaf only come into effect when it is part of the sealed new room.
Yup!!!! :) Some of this stuff ain't easy to grasp first time around. You have to "un-learn" some of the myths and common assumptions that simply aren't correct, then re-learn the way sound actually behaves... It takes a while!Think my head is gonna burst.
Excellent! Those will be great as the basis for building your isolation doors! Great price, too. Lucky you! -------- To me, it seems that your biggest problem is going to be the floor. To get the levels of isolation you are talking about, you need to decouple and isolate both floors. That can be done, but isn't easy and isn't cheap. - Stuart -have found second hand solid core wood fire doors (2 are 1 3/4" and the other considerably thicker.) for £30.