Studio Built Commercial Basement

Hello Everyone. Excited to start a new thread/studio build! I live in the U.S. (Rochester NY), and am about to start designing my medium sized studio. Most work in the studio will take place in the control room. The studio is mostly for myself and a number of others to produce electronic based music. The control room has to have space to accommodate lots of hardware (synths/drum machines), a small console (32-8 channel max) some mackie 824's, soffit mounted mains, random gear, as well as a place for several people to sit, critically listen and give input. I do plan on being able to have a live room to regularly record either a single vocalist, a guitar player, or a full drum kit. Being able to record a full band in the live room at once is not very important to me, but if I was offered a paid gig to do it, it would be nice to be able to squeeze them in. For the sake the biggest drum sound possible and the most comfort I could offer to a singer or musician, I would like to keep the live room as big as the space allows. The building is constructed completely of concrete. The walls and ceilings are all poured concrete (not block) that have been coated with a 6" layer of cork, because the previous building owner (builder) constructed it in the early 1900's to be climate controlled. The space for the most part is wide open with the exception of a few concrete pillars which I have marked on the diagram with a (P). The ceiling height is 121" 3/8. The business upstairs is a Nightclub, but is only really loud for a few hours on Thurs, Fri, Sat, Nights. And I run that, so more often than not, that Im up there working and not in the studio. Due to the construction of the building, even with the nightclub at its loudest nights, its still not so loud in the basement I couldn't work with headphones or near-fields at a decent volume. I plan on using the room-within-a-room design, which means since the space is unfinished and open I need to bild both sets of walls. One topic I have not read about on this forum is building a project in stages. In this build, I would like to Build the outside "rooms" or walls of both the live and control room first. I don't plan on finishing the whole project in one build, so to build the room(s) and be able to store things in them until I build the "inner-room" (floated, decoupled, etc), is the only way I can build. On my diagram I have pointed out generally where I would like to see the rooms built, these spaces however could be modified as long as somewhere between the pillars I can leave an approximate 4 foot hallway as a pass through (can be anywhere through grey space on diagram. I have been reading several studio building books about the best room ratios to start off with before room correction. Since I have approximately 10 foot ceilings, im thinking I would maximize my studio size by using either the 1:1.60:2.33 or 1:1.50:2.10 ratios. But as I started to map out where I could place walls to give me those ratios, I found myself with some un-answerable questions. Should those ratios noted by Sepmeyer and Louden be used for both the control room and the live room? Does the ratio describe the "inner room" or "the outer room" If I am building a room within a room, can the outside room be rectangular and the inside room have splayed walls? Or do I have to build both rooms (the room as well as room inside it) with matching splayed walls. I have more questions but lets start there. Thanks. Sorry For the long winded post.

The ratios can be used for both rooms and refers to the inner room - specifically to the hard boundaries, i.e. you should ignore the cork which will have only a slight modifying effect on the modes. Your outermost boundaries are already rectangular, the inner structures should use the space efficiently, so yes the walls should follow the same lines as the room adjacent (the minimum distance between any two leaves of an isolation wall determines the maximum isolation possible, so splaying walls in opposition to another is a waste of space). The most critical room is the control room which should be as symmetrical as possible, so design this room first. The live room can be asymmetric, so splayed walls here too are good. The reason for maintaining the hallway between the pillars is unclear as this hall doesn't seem to go anywhere, but perhaps your drawing is misleading (not showing everything). You describe the wall construction (concrete with 6" cork facing) but not how thick the concrete is. The ceiling is also described as poured concrete. Does this also have a cork surface? It would be advantageous to consult the owner or architectural plans to have a more detailed look at the construction of this ceiling - specifically in regard to the floor above. What you need to know is whether this already constitutes a double leaf, in which case, adding a third leaf in the form of a suspended ceiling for your rooms could in fact compromise the existing isolation between you and the club upstairs.

Hi "chopinonvinyl". Welcome!

The control room has to have space to accommodate lots of hardware (synths/drum machines), a small console (32-8 channel max) some mackie 824's, soffit mounted mains, random gear, as well as a place for several people to sit, critically listen and give input.

Tall order! :) That will need some careful layout, considering the small space available, but it probably can be done.

I do plan on being able to have a live room to regularly record either a single vocalist, a guitar player, or a full drum kit. Being able to record a full band in the live room at once is not very important to me, but if I was offered a paid gig to do it, it would be nice to be able to squeeze them in. For the sake the biggest drum sound possible and the most comfort I could offer to a singer or musician, I would like to keep the live room as big as the space allows.

OK, so it's clear that the CR gets priority on space, and the LR should be as big as possible in the left-over space, but doesn't need to be huge.

The building is constructed completely of concrete. The walls and ceilings are all poured concrete (not block)

Great! Good start on isolation, and good acoustic floors. In fact, if the concrete is in good state, your floors are already finished! :)

The ceiling height is 121" 3/8.

Nice! Height is good, and you have a decent amount. Everything bodes well, so far.

I plan on using the room-within-a-room design, which means since the space is unfinished and open I need to bild both sets of walls.

By "both sets" I guess you mean the single-leaf set for the LR and the other single-leaf set for the CR? You already have your outer leaf, so you only need to add the inner leaf for each room.

One topic I have not read about on this forum is building a project in stages. In this build, I would like to Build the outside "rooms" or walls of both the live and control room first.

Ummmm.... I think you are confused about what "room in a room" means! You already HAVE most of your outer leaf for both rooms! It is the "walls and ceilings are all poured concrete" that you told us about. You don't need any more "outer-leaf", except for one wall to complete the third side of the outer leaf, separating the reception and hall form the actual studio. Apart from that, the outer leaf is already complete and finished. The concrete might need a coat of paint to seal it airtight, but beyond that, nothing more: it is done already!

I don't plan on finishing the whole project in one build, so to build the room(s) and be able to store things in them until I build the "inner-room" (floated, decoupled, etc), is the only way I can build.

Once again, the ONLY thing you need to do is to build the inner-room! That's it! Nothing more. All you need right now is to build a single stud frame with drywall on one side of it to complete the last open side of the studio area, then a single stud frame for the CR and put drywall on ONE side of it, plus build a single stud frame for the LR and put drywall on ONE side of it. That's it. You do NOT need to build individual outer leaves for the LR and CR, since you already have 5 out of 6 sides for that: you just need to add the 6th side.

as long as somewhere between the pillars I can leave an approximate 4 foot hallway as a pass through

Where does that hallway go to? Like Brian said, it seems to start in the reception area and end at a concrete wall! So what is the purpose of that? It doesn't seem to make any sense...

I have been reading several studio building books about the best room ratios to start off with before room correction.

Don't get too hung up on ratios: The idea is to stay away from the bad ones, and get close to a good one, but that's about it. Theoretical prediction of room modes is fine and fun, but reality will kick you r tail end anyway, and more than likely the actual modal behavior won't match the theory very well. You'll have to measure the room response once the shell is completed anyway, to decide on the treatment, so don't go overboard playing with rations, and trying to finesse things down to the last micron! Ball-park is good enough.

1:1.60:2.33 or 1:1.50:2.10 ratios. But as I started to map out where I could place walls to give me those ratios, I found myself with some un-answerable questions. Should those ratios noted by Sepmeyer and Louden

Actually, 1 : 1.6 : 2.33 is originally from Bolt, not Sepmeyer, ifi I recall correctly, but who cares! Both are good, and so are dozens of others. :)

Should those ratios noted by Sepmeyer and Louden be used for both the control room and the live room?

The control room is far more important, as the final goal is an even modal spread and a neutral room response. For the live room, the goal is usually to have some type of "character", perhaps variable, that enhances the recording, or at least doesn't detract from it, so there you might actually want some type of modal response... depending on what you want to do in there. But since live rooms are often non-parallel and non-rectangular, it's a moot point anyway: ratios go out the window as soon as things become non-rectangular.

Does the ratio describe the "inner room" or "the outer room"

Inner "room". The ratio refers to the inner surface of the final inner leaf. In other words, it refers to the hard, massive solid, rigid surfaces you see as you look around you, when you lay down your hammer after completing the isolation part of your build, right before you pick up the hammer again to start the treatment part of your build. (Isolation and treatment are two very different things.).

If I am building a room within a room, can the outside room be rectangular and the inside room have splayed walls?

The outside room is already rectangular! It is the "poured concrete walls and ceiling", plus the one last leaf that you still need to build. You can build that last one at an angle if you want, but fitting it around the pillars makes it more feasible to just build it straight across. But to answer your question: Yes, the inner-leaf can be splayed if you want it to be, regardless of the shape of the outer leaf. As Brian pointed out, isolation is limited by the smallest air gap, so you need to take that into account if you plan to splay your walls, ceilings, doors or windows: the shortest distance is the weakest link.

Or do I have to build both rooms (the room as well as room inside it) with matching splayed walls.

Not necessary. You splay your inner-leaf walls for very specific reasons: 1) To help create an RFZ design, if that is what you want. 2) To help eliminate flutter echo. 3) To move modal response around (assuming you have some type of FEM/FEA tool to do the analysis, and that you know how to use it!) 4) To help give the live room "character". 5) Because it looks damn cool! Apart from that, there aren't too many other valid reasons for splaying! #1 and #2 are the normal reasons. So if you splay, then great. But as soon as you do that, you can throw your modal calculators out the window, as the only apply to rectangular rooms. They are no use at all for non-rectangular rooms, except for the axial modes on any remaining parallel walls, but the axial response on the non-parallel walls, as well as some of the tangential response and all of the oblique response is no longer valid. Splaying the walls shifts the modes to different locations (and therefore different frequencies), which cannot be predicted with simple tools. But like I said before, prediction may or may not match reality, and you will have to measure the response of the complete inner-leaf anyway, prior to deciding on treatment, so it doesn't really matter if you splay or not. If you like splayed rooms (I do!) then base it on a good ratio, and go from there, bu realizing that the splay invalidates the predictions from that point on.

I have more questions but lets start there. Thanks. Sorry For the long winded post.

Long-winded, detailed posts are good! so are lots of smart questions, such as yours. The only dumb question is the one you don't ask! Regarding your layout: I think it can be improved a lot, and splaying will help to get through those pillars neatly, maximizing the CR size, which is one of your design goals, so I'd go for it, provided that you understand the reason why you are doing it, and the implications. But you are forgetting one very important point: Budget. Since this is a commercial venture, I guess you are fine there, but it would still help us to know what kind of budget you have in mind, as that can also affect the recommendations on building materials and techniques. For example, big budget means you can have nice big windows from the CR to LR, with good isolation, as well as lots of large doors. Low budget means you can't have any window, and only one small door. There are other issues you haven't mentioned yet that are critical: HVAC and electrical. Studios are hermetically sealed (at least twice), and surrounded by thick insulation, so they DO need a good HVAC system to both keep them cool and also keep the people inside them alive, by supplying fresh air and removing stale air, all while maintaining the isolation to the outside word, and the isolation between rooms. The electrical system is also a potential path for sound to get around between the rooms and to the outside world. All of these need to be considered very carefully in the design! One last thing. You said:

... until I build the "inner-room" (floated, decoupled, etc),

Yes, you totally do need to decouple, but no, you most likely do NOT need to float your room(s). Very few studios need that. And if you do need it, then add a couple of zeros to your budget, since fully floating a studio that size is not going to be cheap! It is a very common misconception that studios have to be floated: the majority do not. You might or might not need to do that, but this will be decided by the next stage in your design: figuring out how much isolation you really need, in terms of dB TL, by using a sound level meter and actually measuring (not guessing!). That number is the basis for the isolation design. - Stuart -

What an amazingly helpful response! Let me start off with clearing up a few questions you guys seemed to have. I am the building owner so as far as construction details go, the ceiling is almost 14 inches thick concrete with an additional 4" of cork (not 6 i was wrong earlier) that is also on the ceiling. The walls to my knowledge are just as thick with 2 layers of 4" cork (8" total) and then faced with some kind of troweled on mortar thats about 3/4" thick. Impressive building for early 1900's! They are knocking down lots of buildings around me for a big downtown development project. I dont think they were in the middle of demolition today, or driving huge trucks, which at times you can hear, but the spl meter today was staying right around 36-37 dB. Not bad. On major thing I think i confused everyone with is that the green areas in the diagram ARE NOT rooms. NO WALLS ARE CURRENTLY BUILT. They are simply a way i was identifying the general areas where I was thinking things would go. The only wall that is present are the exterior walls. I love the aesthetic of the splayed walls and think i can make the most use of my space around those pillars, which are my only obstruction. The section of the basement I have shared in the drawing is only a part of what I have. I have to get to the other side, but I haven't built anything there yet so the door can go anywhere, and as long as the hallway is wide enough to comfortably get through, the live room or control room can stick out into that space. I will post some more pictures today and show the rest of the basement looks like. Maybe even some old plans I had thought up before I grew so concerned about ratios. I can post the .skp file too if that would help anyone. Also, You are correct placing the importance on the big CR. Aside from maximizing space around the pillars, I love the feeling of the splayed walls/ceiling from a work environment perspective. What is RFZ? Reflection free zone (guess). So mode calculator... in garbage. How big do I make the room? Seems scary to just build what looks cool... Theres still gotta be a science to it right? From a Budget perspective I don't see myself spending more than 10,000 USD on the construction. I have all the equipment aside from soffit mounted mains, so there isn't going to be much cost there. Im also In the construction business so there isn't going to be any labor costs. What I wanted to have done in the next few weeks are 2 Isolated rooms that can later be turned into a CR and LR. Power run, and hvac ductwork run without actually having a furnace or ac unit connected. I want to build with steel studs, roxul rock wool batts, and just one layer of drywall to start. Was thinking that as I decided to do more work (spend more money) I could add another layer of drywall connect an AC unit, build up floors to run cables etc. I understand I will most likely need to have the window in place in the initial build. I have several solid wood 3-0 half glass commercial doors that will work for now as entrances. At a later date I can cut back the sheetrock and install larger sliding glass doors. Being a contractor I have the ability to change the design to a degree as long as I have an idea of end product in the original design. Hope I answered most of the questions. Looking forward to some new ideas of room size and placement!