New studio panel advice needed please.

Eric Best wrote:

Makes sense. I would think of taking care of the modal problem with tuned helmholtz or panel absorber, but there are so many ways to deal with these things.

Yes I would agree Eric. That's my "last resort" plan as I have mentioned before that my construction skills are less than zero. I'll do it if it's the only way to deal with the modal problem. I can't see myself spending so much on my room and my monitors and then flaking on the last thing to make the room sound right! Of course I might have to wait till some $$ comes in though! :cry: -A

I wasn't sure what to do so I ordered the cloud without backing. I can always add the backing later

Cool! So maybe we CAN do those tests, and settle the issue (to a certain extent). take careful REW measurements just before you put the cloud up, then again when it is up, then take it down, put the backing on, put it back up again, and take the final measurement.

if I make sure that the ceiling anchors can take the extra weight.

Shouldn't be a problem: each 6' x 3' panel of 3/4" plywood will weight about 40 pounds (3/4" is roughly 2.2 lbs/ft2). Let's be generous and add another 40 pounds for the frame, rock wool and mounting hardware (VERY generous), that means each cloud will weigh about 80 pounds. Spread that across 6 chains / eye bolts (three down each side of the panel), and each chain / eye bolt is holding only about 13 pounds. So it shouldn't be a problem, assuming that your joists can handle an extra 160 pounds total load. Once again, that will be spread across 3 joists, so each joist only needs to handle an extra 55 pounds, roughly. (Somebody check my math, please! Did that in a hurry... gotta run...) - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

Cool! So maybe we CAN do those tests, and settle the issue (to a certain extent). take careful REW measurements just before you put the cloud up, then again when it is up, then take it down, put the backing on, put it back up again, and take the final measurement.

Yes! Did my plan of taking 5 or 6 measurements around the mix position and then averaging seem like the right thing to do?

Shouldn't be a problem: each 6' x 3' panel of 3/4" plywood will weight about 40 pounds (3/4" is roughly 2.2 lbs/ft2). Let's be generous and add another 40 pounds for the frame, rock wool and mounting hardware (VERY generous), that means each cloud will weigh about 80 pounds. Spread that across 6 chains / eye bolts (three down each side of the panel), and each chain / eye bolt is holding only about 13 pounds. So it shouldn't be a problem, assuming that your joists can handle an extra 160 pounds total load. Once again, that will be spread across 3 joists, so each joist only needs to handle an extra 55 pounds, roughly.

OK so here is where I am at with that. My ceiling joists appear to be 2 x 7.3" after measuring them. I was at the hardware store and the guy said I should try and go THROUGH the entire joist with an eye bolt and then use a washer and nut on the back followed by some thread glue. This is the bolt he suggested. It's 1/2"x12". My idea was to use something like this.... so it screws into the joist quite a ways. I think with 3 down each side of the panel it should be good. Am I wrong? Here is the space in the ceiling...

I would think that those are overkill.

Eric Best wrote:

I would think that those are overkill.

Ha! Short and to the point! Thanks Eric, that's what I thought too. I will go with the screw in eye bolts. -A

I would think that those are overkill.

Yeah, me too! You'd be cutting away half the joist by drilling a hole big enough for that! :shock: You could hang your entire room from a couple of those things.... and your car, too! :) - Stuart -

One thing I didn't like about using the 'screw' version of the hooks is that I could NOT be certain that I hit the 'meat' of the joist ! :shock: Of course, my build may be different, as I had 2 layers of 5/8" dryway for my ceiling. So I opt'd for heavy duty toggle bolts. My hardback clouds weight ~ 80lbs [4" layer of rigid fiberglass mounted on 3/4" plywood & 3/4" MDF --- size 2'x4']

Mira Music wrote:

Eric Best wrote:

I would think that those are overkill.

Ha! Short and to the point! Thanks Eric, that's what I thought too. I will go with the screw in eye bolts. -A

My best writing! :mrgreen:

RJHollins wrote:

One thing I didn't like about using the 'screw' version of the hooks is that I could NOT be certain that I hit the 'meat' of the joist ! :shock: Of course, my build may be different, as I had 2 layers of 5/8" dryway for my ceiling. So I opt'd for heavy duty toggle bolts. My hardback clouds weight ~ 80lbs [4" layer of rigid fiberglass mounted on 3/4" plywood & 3/4" MDF --- size 2'x4']

Hmm...my ceiling is also 2 layers of 5/8" drywall but I have access to the space above the ceiling so I can measure exactly where each joist is. They are 16 OC. I have never seen a heavy duty toggle bolt but I'll look them up. The cloud panels arrived this evening, 6' x 3' and 4" deep. 2 panels. The Roxul is sagging a bit when they are held in their position so my guy is going to come back on Monday with his pneumatic stapler and we will make the burlap really tight so no sagging occurs. Otherwise they look great. I'll weigh them over the weekend to see what I'm dealing with then probably hang em on Monday. I'll post some pics over the weekend. -A

My best writing! :mrgreen:

Indeed sir, indeed!

Soundman2020 wrote:

I would think that those are overkill.

Yeah, me too! You'd be cutting away half the joist by drilling a hole big enough for that! :shock: You could hang your entire room from a couple of those things.... and your car, too! :) - Stuart -

LOL! I must agree there Stuart!v :D

The Roxul is sagging a bit when they are held in their position so my guy is going to come back on Monday with his pneumatic stapler and we will make the burlap really tight so no sagging occurs.

Just checking here: Did he put a layer of plastic between the burlap and the Roxul? It's there for two reasons: One is to reflect some highs back into the room, so it doesn't over-treat and sound too dead. The other is to stop the fibers from the Roxul slowly filtering down through the burlap over time, all over your console and other gear... - Stuart -

hmmm ... as I follow along on the thread [learn from everyone I can] :) Curious about the 'plastic wrap' on the clouds, under the fabric [since I've yet to cover mine]. I've seen this 'plastic' treatment mentioned regarding other treatments, such as chunky corner traps ... but not heard about use on clouds. Any data available to educates 'us' students here would be always appreciated :) BTW ... the toggle bolts I used [from Lowes] are these:. NOW ... as xSpace reminded me ... the 'holding' power should be considered hanging from the wall [shear strength] .... but, since the bolt is connected to a nut in the toggle, these are very strong. ALSO ... my 2 layers of ceiling drywall have the proper screwing schedule applied. With the cloud weight distributed across 2 joist above ... confidence is high as to the safety factor. Unfortunately, having banged my head on the very front one [low ceiling for me] :cen: , I was acutely reminded just how solid these panels are mounted :roll: :lol: OH ... the Mitsubishi Mr Slim has been a great purchase. It works great, and is very quiet ... even considering that my rooms noise floor is around 20dB [actually tough to measure when breathing]. I glad I went with the combined AC/Heat unit ... now I can just set a temp and let the unit handle whats needed. OK .... back to listen/learn mode :wink:

Soundman2020 wrote:

The Roxul is sagging a bit when they are held in their position so my guy is going to come back on Monday with his pneumatic stapler and we will make the burlap really tight so no sagging occurs.

Just checking here: Did he put a layer of plastic between the burlap and the Roxul? It's there for two reasons: One is to reflect some highs back into the room, so it doesn't over-treat and sound too dead. The other is to stop the fibers from the Roxul slowly filtering down through the burlap over time, all over your console and other gear... - Stuart -

He did not put any plastic between the burlap and the Roxul. Is this a specific kind of plastic? Could I use something like paint sheets? Another quick question...these clouds are using Roxul AFB for the stuffing. Is this ok or should it be rigid fiberglass?

Here's a very brief old thread where this was discussed a bit. There are more threads like this, but I don't have time to search the forum for them right now. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14590 Hope that helps to clarify! - Stuart -

UPDATE My guy Brian came round today and we fixed the cloud panels so they don't sag so much. WE had the just cut the burlap cos we couldn't remove the inner frame without destroying it. I bought .7mil drop cloths this morning from Home Despot along with some spray adhesive. I applied adhesive to the frame and a little to the Roxul then we stretched the plastic over tight and pressed the sides down on the glue. Then the burlap went back on. Luckily we had enough material to re attach with staples! Now all I gotta do it hang them! :shock: I'm hoping my contractor can come lend a hand soon. I'll post pics of the hanging... See next post for extra pics...

The rest of the pics.... The panels look SO much better and I'm hoping the top end will sound good too like John says it will. Also no dust and particles over my gear!! :D That's all folks! -A

So while I'm waiting for the contractor to come help with the cloud hanging I decided to try a few things to even out the bass response a bit. While working on a mix the other night I noticed that there is really very little bass at the mix position. No matter how high I turned up the sub the bass at the mix position was just not there but when I moved further back the bass was huge and tight. After measuring the distance of the center of the woofer from the ceiling and floor I saw that the speakers were practically exactly halfway between them. :roll: After removing the sub from the chain the first thing I tried was placing the Focals on their sides. Already a big improvement. I then experimented with moving them front to back along the triangle axes and that improved the bass response too. Even while walking around the room the bass seemed more even except right in the corners in front of the traps. I then moved them further apart starting with lining them up exactly in the center of the bass traps in the corners. This produced a huge difference! They were too far apart at this point so I moved them closer together until I found a place for them that produced an even, tight bass response. I then put the sub back in the chain with the sub in between the speakers and set the crossover to 40hz. MUCH BETTER! The low frequencies sound less boxy and way more even around the room. I still have a slight modal ring but it's way less pronounced than when I first set up the system and did some testing. Just for curiosity sake I plugged my room dimensions into the Excel spreadsheet posted here http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5801 After a bit more measuring and adjusting I think I have the monitors in a much better position. I am not in an equilateral triangle with the monitors anymore but the improvement it big enough that it's not worrying me at this point. I'm also hoping the cloud will even out the modal ring a little more. I'll finish my mix tonight and take it elsewhere to see how I'm doing. -A

SUCCESS!!! Well I finally got tired of waiting for the contractor to come round and help out so I got 2 buddies to give up a morning and we managed to do it! The cloud was hung into the ceiling joists with large screw in eyes. I was originally going to use thin steel cable but it was too finicky and hard to work with so chain was used instead. The sound is greatly improved. Bass is more focused and a lot of the standing wave around the "C" note has gone. It is not completely gone but it is way more manageable. I will have to see how much it is still a problem in the coming weeks. One bad side effect of the cloud seems to be a loss of isolation especially low frequencies. I seem to be able to hear more outside than I did before I hung the cloud. Not much I can do about that I would think. Here is a very quick reading taken at the mix position before and after hanging the cloud. More to come as I mix a lot of stuff this week. Will do some recording in here too. -A