Is a suspended ceiling grid a good option for a live room? Can the hangers come resilient? Will they hold double 5/8" drywall?
I'm not sure how much I'd be hurting my isolation by doing this, over a fully decoupled room w/ framed ceiling...
Do you have a brand you can recommend I look into?
Is a suspended ceiling grid an option for a live room?
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 17022.
You would have weak points at the edge of each panel of drywall because it wouldn't be airtight. Good system for treatment, not for isolation.
Why wouldn't it be airtight? You would still tape and mud the drywall seams; and even the ceiling/wall seams...You would have weak points at the edge of each panel of drywall because it wouldn't be airtight. Good system for treatment, not for isolation.
I thought he was talking about something like this. http://www.colorado-ceilings.com/indexdenver/armstrong.jpg
A suspended grid that the pieces drop into.
What were you thinking about?
No you would not, and the frame is not designed to support this kind of weight and Like the man said, it will not be air tight. The biggest problem is the potential for "rattles" from the frame, and the rattles from the unsecured sheetrock.Why wouldn't it be airtight? You would still tape and mud the drywall seams; and even the ceiling/wall seams...You would have weak points at the edge of each panel of drywall because it wouldn't be airtight. Good system for treatment, not for isolation.
Are you thinking that I'm trying to put drywall pieces into a traditional drop ceiling? There are heavier-duty commercial framing available, a grid if you will, that you install and then screw drywall directly to. From what I've heard it will hold double drywall. I just haven't found where to buy it yet, or what it costs. This might be what I'm looking for: http://www.armstrong.com/commceilingsna ... 63637.htmlthe frame is not designed to support this kind of weight
None of what you are saying makes any difference to your isolation. None of it makes any difference to the additional cost. None of it makes any difference to the labor involved, and if I didn't say isolation, rattle and weight...and then lets bring in flanking from the wire support path...your trying to do something that has no place in this field.
Sure, you think you have a handle on a few ideas, I get that, I think I have a few ideas as well, but what you are attempting to do is, labor intensive, almost cost prohibitive and runs the risk of being a complete bust in terms of isolation.
So I say to you, if you want to get a solid tried and true isolation for the least amount of cash, then let us stick with the basics.
But if your bent is to re-invent the wheel with little data to support your effort and push this down our collective throat, you can be certain that you will be met with much opposition.
We are, or rather I am not saying this will not work. It has the means to work as a "fundamental" support system for a load, I get that. What it does not have is three things. 1 is that there is little data to support what we can expect from it. 2. is that we already know it cost more, puts more load on the building and is labor intensive. 3. is that it is NOT done.
The supposition that tape and mud over a dense mass and a heavy grid will somehow create an air tight barrier, while true on the face, it COULD happen.
What it does not take into account is that at SOME point this ceiling barrier will be bridged to the interior wall assembly, a flanking point.
So I guess it has four strikes...and that is most assuredly, game over :)
Why not just hang the drywall from resilient channel on the ceiling joists? Or put the entire ceiling frame on isolation mounts? Or just rest the joists across on the inner leaf walls? All of those would accomplish the same thing, and as Brien said, those are solutions that are known to work, have been tested extensively in laboratories and real-world studios.
- Stuart -
The studio rooms are 100% decoupled room-within-room design as far as the walls are concerned, so wall flanking won't be a issue. The ceiling of the Live Room is only about 7'8", so I don't have much vertical to spare. I was initially planning to just frame out the ceiling as well and mount it onto the walls, but to prevent a very low ceiling room, I wanted to explore other options. I wasn't going to use a grid supported by wires or other ridged materials, but I had heard that someone makes a resilient wire hanger (think of the support wires broken with each side attached to some sort of rubber piece in the middle). I guess since this is "not done" often, not many people have heard of it.What it does not take into account is that at SOME point this ceiling barrier will be bridged to the interior wall assembly, a flanking point.
There's duct work in the way.Why not just hang the drywall from resilient channel on the ceiling joists?
I've never seen Isolation mounts, but sounds like they could be feasible, but... (like you said) I can more easily just attach the ceiling to the inner walls. My goal here was to see if I could save 4" of ceiling height by going with a suspended grid (but again only if it could be made resilient). ===== CEILING HEIGHT CONSUMED (guesstimate) ===== Suspended Grid: 4" (1" air + 2" grid + 1" for double drywall) 2x6 Framed: 7.5" (1" air + 5.5" framing + 1" for double drywall) 2x8 Framed: 9.5" (1" air + 7.5" framing + 1" for double drywall) What do you guys think of this hanger? It has a deflection spring in series with a neoprene cup to resiliently support one or more layers of gypsum board. (The true ceiling of my basement has those same type of joists as you see in the photo too) http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/icw/index.aspx I found that from the following blurb which I found on wiki.answers: Manufacturers of the better hangars can be found on line. The more reliable ones are Pac-international, Kinetics Noise, Industrial acoustics (IAC), Mason Industries, Acoustic Solutions, Quiet Solutions, and Vibron. The Pac-international, Kinetics Noise, IAC and Mason Industries are of particularly high quality. I immensely appreciate both of you taking the time to give me your feedback. Thank you.Or put the entire ceiling frame on isolation mounts? Or just rest the joists across on the inner leaf walls?
Have you considered building your ceiling "inside out"? That places the drywall on TOP of the joists, instead of underneath them, which means that the joists are exposed to the room, and therefore the space between the joists can be used for room treatment. With normal construction you have to hang your treatment below the finish ceiling, taking up even more headroom, but with "inside out" you can use the space between the joists for that treatment. Worth looking at, I reckon... On the Kinetics isolation hangers: that's what I was referring to in my previous post with "isolation mounts". Those will work, if you do the math and load them correctly. Post some photos of what you have up there, so we can get a better idea of wat you are dealing with. There are other techniques that might help... - Stuart -My goal here was to see if I could save 4" of ceiling height ...
That is a very interesting concept. I had never heard of that. I can see how that would save you the couple inches of space consumed by surface treatment products, but again using a framed ceiling would still consume significantly more vertical space. In the below photo, you can see the type of true ceiling joists I have to suspend from (THIS IS NOT PART OF THE STUDIO CONSTRUCTION, JUST SHOWING THE TYPE OF CEILING THAT WE HAVE TO WORK WITH). They look like the same engineered lumber that is on the Kinetics webpage. More photos of the build progress can be seen here: http://www.tightconcepts.comHave you considered building your ceiling "inside out"?
Sorry, I didn't know what an isolation hanger was when you mentioned it.On the Kinetics isolation hangers: that's what I was referring to in my previous post with "isolation mounts".
Hallelujah!!! That is what I was hoping to hear. My only concern with this solution is... do you know if I can use a longer length of wire to bring the grid down the required 9-12" to get below my ductwork? They look pretty short in Kinetic's photo...Those will work, if you do the math and load them correctly.
Gotta admit, this question is what Eric and I had to work with, so a typical ceiling grid would not have been effective. After looking at the pix you just posted I have to ask you if this is your room? So many questions and pix around here most with little information and pictures from other builds...I cannot keep them all sorted out with out specific mentions. This build in the picture has the wall frames nailed to the upper floor wood I joists. Flanking path that should have been broken, which would make decoupling the ceiling effective. As it is, I wouldn't even worry about it since the ONLY thing that is decoupled would be the ceiling.Is a suspended ceiling grid a good option for a live room? Can the hangers come resilient? Will they hold double 5/8" drywall? I'm not sure how much I'd be hurting my isolation by doing this, over a fully decoupled room w/ framed ceiling... Do you have a brand you can recommend I look into?
No. That is the basement ceiling joists that I have to suspend from. But the new construction you see in the picture is not part of the studio rooms; rather it's part of the non-studio rooms in the basement.
No this is not your room?
where is your room pictures?