Hello from Argentina! This is my studio construction diary.

Hello Everybody. I am Diego Castro (30) and i am building my own recoding studio in Buenos Aires, Argentina. This Forum really helps me , so maybe my diary will help you ! Dimensions : - Control Room: H: 2.50 meters, L: 3.20 meters, W: 3.85 (Sepmeyer B - 1 : 1.28 :1.54 ) - Live Room : H: 2.65 meters, L: 4.30 meters, W: 6.95 ( with golden ratio rule ) Thank you guys !

Rather than run through the quick shots of what you are doing, maybe, if you are interested in helping us, you will explain what you are doing, reveal your design concerns to us, show us what you have had to make concessions on, etc. We appreciate the zeal of folks with their builds...but believe it or not, we can make things go better from often just a simple comment that a poster says never knowing that it may not be a good idea until one of the fine people here @ JohnLSayers.com sees this comment and makes a correction. Case in point. Ratios were tested at a ten foot (3.048M) height, have been proven to not be scalable, e.g. if you do not use a ten foot height you will not get the same results as the tested models. The Golden ratio has nothing to do with acoustics...period. Sure maybe architects from hundreds of year ago used this, but we had more room back then ;) Another thing would be this. You have a 32 inch (81.28cm) span on your ceiling joist, that are most likely 2" X 6" (5.08cm X15.24cm) joists. There is no way, in no country you can span 12 feet and 7 inches @ this layout with a deadload of any kind. Just fyi... So, if you do not mind, we would love to actually be a part of the project rather than be a spectator looking at pictures from another recording build.

Hi Diego, The build looks nice, but like Brien said, there are some pretty important structural issues that you don't seem to have considered. I'm also wondering how you are going to arrange the front end of the CR, since it seems rather hard to keep the required symmetry in that area while also allowing for the required bass trapping for a room that size, and still being able to use that door. How are you going to work around that? Are you going to put a bass trap on wheels in front of the door, or is there another plan? One other thing I'm curious about: The floor. Is that a slab on grade? How thick is it? Did you get a structural engineer to approve putting the huge extra load of sand-filled concrete blocks on top of that slab? I'm also interested in how you are going to deal with the issue of the concrete beam across the room, which seems to be very close to where the inner leaf drywall is going to be. How are you going to keep that from flanking? Like Brien said: It would probably be a good idea if you would post your actual design for this room, preferably the SketchUp model, or at least the actual plans. It seems there are problems here that need to be fixed before you go any further with the build. Like Brien said, you seem to have some dangerous structural conditions in there that MUST be fixed, and there are also acoustical questions and layout questions. Fortunately, it looks like some of these can still be fixed, provided that you do not carry on building at this point. - Stuart -

xSpace wrote:

Rather than run through the quick shots of what you are doing, maybe, if you are interested in helping us, you will explain what you are doing, reveal your design concerns to us, show us what you have had to make concessions on, etc. We appreciate the zeal of folks with their builds...but believe it or not, we can make things go better from often just a simple comment that a poster says never knowing that it may not be a good idea until one of the fine people here @ JohnLSayers.com sees this comment and makes a correction. Case in point. Ratios were tested at a ten foot (3.048M) height, have been proven to not be scalable, e.g. if you do not use a ten foot height you will not get the same results as the tested models. The Golden ratio has nothing to do with acoustics...period. Sure maybe architects from hundreds of year ago used this, but we had more room back then ;) Another thing would be this. You have a 32 inch (81.28cm) span on your ceiling joist, that are most likely 2" X 6" (5.08cm X15.24cm) joists. There is no way, in no country you can span 12 feet and 7 inches @ this layout with a deadload of any kind. Just fyi... So, if you do not mind, we would love to actually be a part of the project rather than be a spectator looking at pictures from another recording build.

thank you! sometimes is hard for me to understand everything you said in english. about dimensions: i am building this project in a semi basement. so, i am making¨"a box in a box". I had not more height than 2.70 meters. because there is a ceiling joist. in my new roof, above the wooden beams, i put some wood sheet and "barrier" (an acoustic material) and then i am going to make a plaster suspended ceiling with mineral wool over. I tested the dimensions with a program calculation and it pass(ok). again thank you very much! i am going to post more photos soon, because those photos are a little old.

Soundman2020 wrote:

Hi Diego, The build looks nice, but like Brien said, there are some pretty important structural issues that you don't seem to have considered. I'm also wondering how you are going to arrange the front end of the CR, since it seems rather hard to keep the required symmetry in that area while also allowing for the required bass trapping for a room that size, and still being able to use that door. How are you going to work around that? Are you going to put a bass trap on wheels in front of the door, or is there another plan? One other thing I'm curious about: The floor. Is that a slab on grade? How thick is it? Did you get a structural engineer to approve putting the huge extra load of sand-filled concrete blocks on top of that slab? I'm also interested in how you are going to deal with the issue of the concrete beam across the room, which seems to be very close to where the inner leaf drywall is going to be. How are you going to keep that from flanking? Like Brien said: It would probably be a good idea if you would post your actual design for this room, preferably the SketchUp model, or at least the actual plans. It seems there are problems here that need to be fixed before you go any further with the build. Like Brien said, you seem to have some dangerous structural conditions in there that MUST be fixed, and there are also acoustical questions and layout questions. Fortunately, it looks like some of these can still be fixed, provided that you do not carry on building at this point. - Stuart -

thank you ! are you from chile? do you speak spanish?

¿Si hablo español? !Claro que si! :) Incluso, hay una área del foro en español, si prefieres... Pero tu inglés es bastante bueno (mejor que mi español), y hay mucho mas miembros aquí de habla ingles que castellano, entonces puede ser mejor continuar en español. Por lo tanto, vas a conseguir mucho mas respuestas en el foro en inglés que él de español. A mi me da lo mismo. En qué parte de BA estás construyendo? No he ido por allá en un par de años, pero conozco algo de la ciudad. - Stuart -

Do you speak English...too funny...but now on to the not so funny. Please read the forum RULES (stickies) that can be found at this link: viewforum.php?f=17 Then make certain that this is reviewed: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3231 Please correct your initial post to conform with these rules and guidelines. Many here will not only NOT help while waiting in respect for owners and other better qualified persons to proceed, but will simply ignore these type of posts completely. You may want to immediately ask "what is it that I have missed". Most often it is as simple as including your geographical location in your profile. It might be that you have not included your budget! Trust me in that the more you know the better others can help you and that the answer to that question is in the forum rules linked page. Until then, good luck,

Tienes que seguir las reglas compatriota! :shock: Some of my African American ex clients down in Miami did not do that; one of them got 35 years in prison; another got liquidated (got shot to death). I guesse it is a Hard Knock life for some people around this planet! (lol). I just had to share this piece of information with the honorable members of this forum. No creas en la suerte; utilize la information que existe aqui y te va ir bien :twisted: Hope I spelled that correctly...... Sincerely, Useg Diaz-Granados

Following rules is what gets you a well isolated and unbelievable sounding acoustic environment...so yes, we all follow rules , it's a give-in. And sometimes the rules come on the heals of other rules:) Like Physics has rules you cannot break, some you can alter, but they are hard and fast, by and large. It's rules on top of rules on top of rules, etc. etc.

Could not have said it better myself! (ROFL) !!!!!! :cop: :cop: :cop: :cop: :cop: :cop: Sincerely, Useg Diaz-Granados

Out of curiosity Brien; can you pinpoint which part of this laws of Physics you are referencing to in order to build your theses? The rules in this forum (unless I am missing some important piece of information) is based on human preferences; sort of like law; which is largely based on cultural preferences and usually (because it is made by woman) contains inconsistencies. Laws of Physics are complex Brien and not always consistent neither. At least that is what I gathered from my friends that operate in that field. :wink: Sincerely, Useg Diaz-Granados

The simple things are what work and are non-negotiable in respect to this intermingled field of construction/sound environment. A concrete floor damped by the Earth is far better than a wooden floor assembly. A decoupled wall assembly is the go to assembly. You cannot span a 2X4 with 7 pounds of mass on it farther than it will physically go with gravity being the governing function outside of the physics involved. Taking less material and attempting to construct something that will support more weight than you have as the frame...bound to fail. "The rules in this forum (unless I am missing some important piece of information) is based on human preferences; sort of like law; which is largely based on cultural preferences and usually (because it is made by woman) contains inconsistencies." You are missing an important piece of information:) I must address this first, cultural preferences administered by woman have no place in this sector of my life, unless, like my beautiful bride, she is in the field, so I will listen to what she has to say. So when I suggest, I suggest based on my experience with theory and practical application, rather than hear say. So let us address human preference. There are 11 or 12 THOUSAND profiles on this site alone. Granted if you listen to the open thread and it aligns with your thinking or your build, you might be subject to believe that this is the way to do it, whatever that thread might suggest. That does not make it physics....that just makes it either acceptable to your way of thinking, or geographically acceptable, which brings us right back to your statement "which is largely based on cultural preferences" And that ain't physics my friend...that is hear say. I only have a few rules that I pay strict attention to, that assumes I am actually paying attention. If at all possible, you will notice that you will not get any information from me that is contrary to what I know to be correct in what it takes to build a structure that can support the weight it involves and the weight it will support. And the above statement assumes that the viewer even knows what I or any of the talented people here are talking about, often they do not, they are dazzled by "acoustics"...which is construction...it really is plane and simple...it is not a black art, and I suggest to do the one, you need to be able to do the other. It is often like asking the drummer to play the guitar players part....can't do it...it is not what they do...it IS what we do. Physics. Big area...planes, trains, cars, trucks...both involve physics AND administer acoustical principles. It is not part and parcel to a sound environment...it is about sound and how to either make it go away from the start or make it go away forensically. Moving on to acoustics, you may notice that I do not concern myself with that area of the forum much. One reason. You construct it correctly from the start, the treatments will take care of themselves, assuming the home work has been done by the poster.

Interesting opinion Brien :wink: . The problem with your analogy, in my humble opinion (lol) is that, although you obviously are extremely well versed in the art of construction, and I understand (and respect), but do not agree with all of your statements, particularly some of the ones concerning some aspects of physics and the way the people in this forum utilizes information in order to make an informed and accurate decision . The reasons for this my friend, is that you, like all other Homosapiens on this planet base your perspective on cultural norms, personal experiences, the socio-economic environment that you have interacted with and the social norms that are acceptable within that socio-economic eviorment and that you have chosen to assimilate (education is another factor in this equation). Not to mention the attributes that you have inherited genetically. The factors I mentioned assist me in making my presumptions and assumptions during my build (which have sometimes been wrong, especially when I've made a decision because I do not care or feel that I have the time to wait for a response from the honorable members of this forum (lol). I often ignore people who posses more knowledge in a particular field then me, because I simply think they are pretentious or do not share or like the way they address other Homosapians (that statement is not completely accurate; I will take and assimilate knowledge even from what I think are a-holes). :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: Sure, a construction that is built incorrectly will fall if it is not constructed proper; but that does not mean that physics, rules in general and the rule of law all contain inconsistencies. In physics (according to person familiar with the field) that laws that govern gravity behave inconsistently compared to what we Homosapiens presume gravity should work one we reach a certain micro-level. :shock: Gravitation out of order so to speak :blah: ...... Sincerely, Useg Diaz-Granados

In physics (according to person familiar with the field) that laws that govern gravity behave inconsistently compared to what we Homosapiens presume gravity should work one we reach a certain micro-level.

Which means that, as Brien so very correctly said, unless you are planning on building your studio at microscopic size, it will collapse if you attempt to put too much weight on the joists. That is undeniably, despite your questionable claims about how gravity acts. The laws (ie, building codes) about what is and is not acceptable in building structures are based on careful laboratory testing, which does in fact agree perfectly with the known laws of physics (which do, in fact, remain constant throughout the entire universe at the scales that interest the average studio builder, despite your claims to the contrary), but are also supported by centuries of empirical data, which also happens to agree rather well with both the laboratory testing and the laws of physics (except, perhaps, for those very, very few people who want to build recording studios at the quantum mechanical scale).

I often ignore people who posses more knowledge in a particular field then me, because I simply think they are pretentious or do not share or like the way they address other Homosapians

And that, my friend is a grave mistake, the results of which are rather evident in your own build. Just because I don't happen to like the way someone speaks, or because I disdain his attitude, does not mean that he is wrong. He is only wrong if what he says contradicts known facts or known laws of physics. Ignoring the sound, solid, and correct advice of someone who does know what they are talking about, then deliberately doing the exact opposite of what he said just because you don't like him, seems rather childish and unscientific.

... especially when I've made a decision because I do not care or feel that I have the time to wait for a response from the honorable members of this forum ...

Once gain, rushing ahead with a build because you "don't feel like" waiting for an answer that could actually kill you (literally), does seem rather foolish. That kind of impatience raises serious questions about the advisability of you being capable of building your studio safely. Hurrying along out of ignorance and impatience, and doing things that you don't understand, don't know how to do correctly, and that could kill or injure if they go wrong (as evidenced in this very thread), hardly seems like a smart way to build. Yet it seems to be a far too common way of building studios. It kind of fits the cliche phrase often applied to rednecks: "Here, hold my beer and watch this!". (Often followed by the sound of screams and ambulance sirens). You may not have noticed, but both Brien and I broke our cardinal rule with this thread: we both responded rapidly, as soon as we saw the dangerous construction, even though the original poster broke another of the cardinal rules of this forum, by not filling in his location. You certainly already know that newcomers who fail to read the rules of the forum, and fail to fill in their location, very seldom get a direct response from moderators on their build, and just get a reminder about the rules. But in this case, the build is so obviously dangerous that concern for the safety of the poster overrides the "rule" of not responding to those who don't follow the instructions about how to use the forum. So please climb down from your own pompous high horse, and recognize that Brien very correctly posted a vigorous warning about a dangerous (and probably illegal) situation. Regardless of the way he said it, he made his point and achieved his purpose: the original poster now knows, without any doubt, that what he did is dangerous and needs to be fixed urgently. Despite what you may think about the laws of gravity being variable, there simply is no doubt that if you hang too much weight from a thin piece of wood, the wood will break and the weight will fall. It doesn't matter if you don't like the attitude of the person who tells you this: if it is true, then it is true. You won't be killed any less dead if a thousand kilograms of drywall and timber crushes you to a pulp, just because you didn't want to hear it, or didn't like the way the person told you. - Stuart -

Stuart; As far as my build is concern I do not have the time to wait until the resurrection of Jesus before I got started. A child will not get to be an adult before getting an answer in here; they will be long dead before they get an answer to the question they asked (with the exception of Glenn; who honestly is the only one of you I like to communicate with in this forum because of the straight forward way he communicates with people). No doubt you are the pros :mrgreen: :wink: :cop: :blah: :horse: :roll:

I often ignore people who posses more knowledge in a particular field then me, because I simply think they are pretentious or do not share or like the way they address other Homosapians

was followed by (that statement is not completely accurate; I will take and assimilate knowledge even from what I think are a-holes). Enough said. I don't (and I never) liked you Stuart, so please do me the favor and never again address me.

So please climb down from your own pompous high horse, and recognize that Brien very correctly posted a vigorous warning about a dangerous (and probably illegal) situation.

You guys have the right and should ensure the safety of the people in this forum Stuart; but I will be damned (not that I believe in God) if I am going to have YOU tell me that I am pompous :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: Do not tell me what to do . A friend, who happens to be believe in Allah once told me;

you get more with sugar then you get with salt.

Sincerely, Useg Diaz-Granados

Useg Diaz-Granados wrote:

Interesting opinion Brien :wink: . The problem with your analogy, in my humble opinion (lol) is that, although you obviously are extremely well versed in the art of construction, and I understand (and respect), but do not agree with all of your statements, particularly some of the ones concerning some aspects of physics and the way the people in this forum utilizes information in order to make an informed and accurate decision . The reasons for this my friend, is that you, like all other Homosapiens on this planet base your perspective on cultural norms, personal experiences, the socio-economic environment that you have interacted with and the social norms that are acceptable within that socio-economic eviorment and that you have chosen to assimilate (education is another factor in this equation). Not to mention the attributes that you have inherited genetically. The factors I mentioned assist me in making my presumptions and assumptions during my build (which have sometimes been wrong, especially when I've made a decision because I do not care or feel that I have the time to wait for a response from the honorable members of this forum (lol). ... Sure, a construction that is built incorrectly will fall if it is not constructed proper; but that does not mean that physics, rules in general and the rule of law all contain inconsistencies. ... Sincerely, Useg Diaz-Granados

Useg Diaz-Granados, I think we are discussing two different things here. One is the physics of how to construct a safe building in general, an acoustic environment as a goal, and the methods based on the materials that we use to reach this goal. The other is personal opinion :). In this thread alone we have people from Argentina, Stuart is in Chile, you are in Sweden and I am in America...this forum hails from Australia. Five different countries...that is my culture as it applies to this...it isn't looking out my back door as sometimes I have to use a telescope to see far enough ;) Cultural conditioning is not part of physics, it more belongs in Behavioral Science. But I agree that people do what they see others locally do, doesn't make it a better way, just another way that may or may not be correct. That is most likely the mainest reason that JohnLSayers.com is so active...people want to do it right, often they want to do it right now, but the "doing it right part" with the most current and up-to-date information available is the driving force. I guess what I am trying to say is this. It can be wrong in my country, a certain building technique, that someone might use, but after enough research is passed you will locate what is the correct way to do said "thing" and that most often can come from another country all together. Like the NRC, they have tested hundreds of wall assemblies/doors and windows, have thousands of articles about this very subject. They are located in Canada !! And the guys that have written articles for them come from various countries as well. But they are authority's' in this field, scientists, well versed and well respected for their work. So that is neither local or hearsay...nor personal opinion that can be misconstrued. To the original posters build, let's assume that the joists are Hemlock, which is a stronger material. 2X6 spaced @ 24 inches, with a 15 pound deadload/ 10 live, l/360 deflection...the span is only 11 feet 2 inches! Hemlock-Fir, with all the same perimeters give you a span of 11 feet 4 inches. In order to span longer distances, you either close the layout OR you increase the lumber size OR both. I am fairly certain that they should have reduced the span, but increasing the lumber dimension might have been an option, had we known anything earlier. /END I try to take the high road around here...since the alternative is a muddy path:), sometimes I fail at that and sometimes what I might "type" doesn't sound near as good to the eyes as it might have to the ears. Stuart has been here for a while, earned his status, and has a great understanding of the mechanics involved in this field. He is most likely one of those "pretentious" people, in your eyes, so it comes as no surprise that you are upset with him...maybe it is a cultural issue between Chile and Sweden...I dunno ;) I agree that Glenn administers information with no agenda, is clear, accurate , a talented designer who most posters abuse :) and can be the most proliferate of authors here. And those are all good things. But let's do each other a favor, and if that cannot be achieved, then let us do John Sayers a favor. Breath first, type it out if breathing doesn't work, then delete the post and start again. There is no way you can not like someone simply based on words typed...it is silly to even consider. Not having the FULL aspects of a persons character, the flesh and blood, the face, voice, hair color, etc...we cannot be so aggressive as to think we do not like someone simply because they are either smarter on paper, or boisterous, or like me...loud mouthed and emotional unavailable ;) Stay focused, all I ask.

Brien Holcombe, even though certain things that you just typed might appear to be correct to me; does not mean that the moderators who should be setting a positive example should appear to be demeaning, rude or obnoxious. If I can only judge a person on the input that I can interpret and if that happens to only be the written word (which I believe to be a good indicator of a persons personal attributes) then that is what I will go by. Sure, I might have lost my cool after grown people in this particular forum have been spoken to like they where little children; maybe the moderators should focus more on the humane treatment of the ones seeking advice here; instead of guarding their status by using their knowledge as leverage in the same time as they behave inappropriate. The reason I used Glenn as an example is because of his inclusive way of dealing with people; if he thinks his knowledge is being unfairly exploited I am sure he can address that particular issue himself without the possible distortion or triangulation of other moderators thoughts that might be based on assumptions and not facts. And that leads me to Stuart; I perceive you to be a grown man Brien; if somebody has something to say about something that I directly addressed to you it should be you and NOT Stuart. Words can in the worst cases start wars; that is why it is important to guard your tongue (or fingers) when communicating with other humans unless you are ready to stand for (and take the consequences of) what you express. Sincerely, Useg Diaz-Granados

.

..does not mean that the moderators who should be setting a positive example should appear to be demeaning, rude or obnoxious.

Well, that's your opinion of how moderators should behave. Some moderators might agree, others don't necessarily.

maybe the moderators should focus more on the humane treatment of the ones seeking advice here;

why? The moderators aren't here to make people people feel happy and wonderful, and yippee! life is beautiful! Not our job. The moderators are here to get rid of spammers, and provide advice on building studios. If they happen to see some doing something dumb, then the best way to make sure the person knows they are doing something dumb, is simply to tell them "That's dumb". Beating around the bush with happy thoughts and nice flowery comments, attempting to not offend anyone, is not going to help people build a better studio. If I'm about to do something stupid in a build, and someone spots it, I would REALLY like to hear them say "That's stupid!" I would really hate for them to try to deliver a discourse on nice pretty feelings, and joyful, cheerful, positive thoughts! How is that going to help me build a better studio? Cold hard facts, straight-up comments are much more useful than wishy-washy PC waffle. (As you might have guessed by now, I'm not big on "political correctness", or touchy-feely warm-and-fuzzies: A rose is a rose, but a pile of crap is still a pile of crap, no matter how pretty you paint it, or how much perfume you pour on it, so that's what I'll call it.)

if somebody has something to say about something that I directly addressed to you it should be you and NOT Stuart.

Why? We are both moderators. We both moderate. There are no restrictions on who can comment on which thread. If I happen to agree with Brien on some point, there's no reason why I shouldn't say so. And if he happens to disagree with me on some point, he has no hesitation in telling me. If you don't happen to like my response to a post, then don't comment on it! I really don't care if you do or don't. It's no big deal to me if I comment on someone's studio build thread, and they don't like my comment. It's their problem, not mine! My advice is there: you can either take it, or you can leave it. Either way, it doesn't affect me. I won't loose any sleep over someone ignoring or rejecting my suggestions. - Stuart -

How are you going diegoselma?

...... Stuart (lol) You don't have to be an A hole in order to assist someone; if you think that is an acceptable approach that is your problem. I will exploit the hell out of your knowledge (absorb any relevant knowledge accessible in this forum presented by you). But once again (and for the last time because this dialog is over), do me the favor Stuart and NEVER again involve yourself in MY (lol) project. Have a good life buddy :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvXgRZ8sfSw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3EYvNnMibg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV-LX6y25Ww http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkJQ3xvYqt4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUxFducYXyk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjNh3IiXE4M :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Sincerely, Useg Diaz-Granados

Diego, now that the rude and unpleasant hijack of your thread is over, I was wondering how it is going with your build, and if you need more help? - Stuart -

"I will exploit the hell out of your knowledge (absorb any relevant knowledge accessible in this forum presented by you)." And I will say this...whatever he knows (Stuart) he has read...and you are free to do this as well, we mention many books and hundreds of documents around here...and BEG the posters to buy them/read them/and apply them. You guys play pretty :)