Hi my name is John A. Loy in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, USA. I am attempting to design and build a multi-track recording studio to record bands. I have been lurking on this forum for over a year now and feel I am familiar enough with standards and practices to actually post my design. I have combed over many books and other Internet sites and consider the opinions of the experts here the ONLY I can trust. I have actually built 5 studio in the past based on all the old recording studio wives tales, however this is the first with the proper techniques and research (come to find out I did accidentally get a few things right in the past).
I want a facility where I can record up to 7 piece bands in a multi-track fashion. Meaning record full band with intention of only keeping drums then overdubbing everything else in the isolated room. I hope to max out in the 100 -110 range but I am sure those will be extreme cases. My design is pretty far along and I am looking to have a few questions answered and the drawings peer reviewed.
The plan is based on my needs vs. my budget. The things you may want to see that have been cut are that way because I could not afford. However the elements that have been cut were done so after careful consideration of their purpose. In other words if something was cut it is because I determined I did not need its function.
I have a 3-room design. Control room, isolated tracking room, and lounge (non – isolated room for tracking scratch tracks and for communication between musicians). As noted above, isolation, because of cost is limited to one room. Fortunately, I am in a very rural area where I am not going to disturb anyone. As a matter of fact, my closest neighbors are 100 yards away and they are in their 80’s and nearly deaf. I do however; have a small highway about 300 yards away. I have isolated because I believe the highway noise will affect recording (condensers and such picking up large trucks/ low frequency etc), but I am sure the control room and lounge will be quit enough.
Absorption consist of slat walls, broadband absorbers, clouds and hangers in bass traps.
The exterior shell is a stand-alone 24’ x 36’ building with concrete slab and 8 foot rafters for ceiling. Right now that is it. My plan is to drywall the control room and lounge, and the entire ceiling of the building like a normal house, then leave the walls for the isolated tracking room bare w/ pink insulation then set the walls/isolation room within. All this to prevent a 3-leaf wall.
Electricity, HVAC, and fresh air ventilation are beyond the scope of what I looking for on the forum. I am using a ductless mini-split and fresh/stale air exchange that will also serve to pull air through the room. A dear friend is a published expert in this field and he assures me it will work, I will keep everyone updated. Audio cable runs will go through the ceiling into the attic space then drop down via conduit for maximum isolation and minimum wall holes.
Also I noticed one dimension missing (bottom) on my Sketchup export: the width of the isolation room is 13 ft.
My budget is around $5000, with that being said I already have some materials lying around and have become quite the expert at finding deals. I pay retail for almost nothing!!!!!!!
Feel free to post any and all comments I have very thick skin….
Ok now my questions:
Is it an agle really necessary between the 2 sets of sliding glass doors on the isolated tracking room?
Is the space between leaves on the isolated tracking room too much? I have heard 12 in max…..
The inspector would like me a lot better if I went ahead and dry walled the entire interior of the outer shell. Am I correct in assuming that would create a 3 leaf wall or can I go ahead and drywall it all?
Suggestions for diffusion in isolated tracking room? Are slat walls good enough?
Suggestions for materials for audio conduit?
Is there anything that seems excessive or unnecessary?
Am I leaving out any info needed?
Sandcastle: Tracking and mixing studio in rural NC~ USA
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 16580.
Hi John, and welcome!
First, to answer your questions straight-up:
No, not necessary. (But you might want to consider angling one or both of those walls, along their full length, so that you don't have parallel walls in the LR. Helps a bit with flutter echo.Is it an agle really necessary between the 2 sets of sliding glass doors on the isolated tracking room?
Is it possible to have too much money? :) In other words, the bigger the gap, the better. The amount of isolation you get depends mainly on the MSM resonant frequency of your wall. That is controlled mainly by two parameters: mass of each leaf, and depth of the air gap between them. More mass is better. More air gap is better. So if you can afford 12" of air gap, that is excellent. Minimum is 4", good is 8", great is 12". This is one case where size DOES matter...Is the space between leaves on the isolated tracking room too much? I have heard 12 in max…..
Yup! Put drywall on there, and you have a third leaf. Not good. Why does he want you to drywall it? What is the reason? If he can explain that, then maybe we can figure a work around.The inspector would like me a lot better if I went ahead and dry walled the entire interior of the outer shell. Am I correct in assuming that would create a 3 leaf wall or can I go ahead and drywall it all?
Slat walls are more tuned absorber than diffuser, although they will diffuse as well to a certain extent. And yes, they should be good enough, if designed and built properly.Suggestions for diffusion in isolated tracking room? Are slat walls good enough?
What do you mean by "audio conduit"? Comments:Suggestions for materials for audio conduit?
That's on the low end for a full rock band. The drums alone can put out 115 dB without too much trouble. Add in heavy bass, electric guitars and stuff, and you are probably up around 118, or even more.I hope to max out in the 100 -110 range but I am sure those will be extreme cases.
If he has experience in doing sound studios, and knows about decoupling, isolation, silencers and things, as well as how to figure the cooling capacity, ventilation flow, and humidity control requirements (none of which are the same as for a normal house or office...) then that's great. - Stuart -I am using a ductless mini-split and fresh/stale air exchange that will also serve to pull air through the room. A dear friend is a published expert in this field and he assures me it will work,
Wow thanks so much for the quick response... Seeing you respond after so long on this forum is like a hollywood star answering a fan letter (no ego stroking intended but hey if you want to take some go for it)
The walls are parallel for budget reasons and for predictability and continuity of such echoes and resonant frequencies. I had intended for absorption panels to cut down my flutter echoes. Do you think it would be just as effective as splaying walls to add angled framing covered in mineral wool and cloth, maybe a few hangers inside? (similar to what is on the front and back walls of tracking and control rooms) or maybe just angling the absorption panels..... Is the absorption (will be angled slat walls) on the front of the control room enough of a splay for that room?No, not necessary. (But you might want to consider angling one or both of those walls, along their full length, so that you don't have parallel walls in the LR. Helps a bit with flutter echo.
He is just not used to seeing recording studio building techniques ti is not a problem to not have the drywall.....If he can explain that, then maybe we can figure a work around.
The piping that will contain the audio cords normally is metal was wondering about other materialsWhat do you mean by "audio conduit"?
thanks for the info, normally the bass will be direct which will help contain the low end and those big waves. Given my experiences I think the isolation will be enough for the one room I have isolated.That's on the low end for a full rock band. The drums alone can put out 115 dB without too much trouble. Add in heavy bass, electric guitars and stuff, and you are probably up around 118, or even more.
between the two of us and all I have read here, I believe I'll have all that covered. I have given him a book and a few of the relevant posts here. I am heavily relying on the DMS being quieter than most regular HVAC units. Since I am ductless silencers should not be necessary but I am looking for a good excuse to build one hehehehe. Perhaps surrounding the entire unit with one would be effective if necessary or put one in the exhaust for stale air? I suppose I would have to decouple it from the exterior wall? any suggestions for that? Am I being too naive or passive about this? Johnf he has experience in doing sound studios, and knows about decoupling, isolation, silencers and things, as well as how to figure the cooling capacity, ventilation flow, and humidity control requirements (none of which are the same as for a normal house or office...) then that's great.
:oops: :oops: Blush!!! You made my day! :) Now, if only they would PAY me like a Hollywood star, ... :)Seeing you respond after so long on this forum is like a hollywood star answering a fan letter (no ego stroking intended but hey if you want to take some go for it)
Predictability is fine, as far as it goes, but reality will not match your best predictions! I wrote a long post about that to someone else yesterday: you can find it here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16515&p=116450&hilit=modal+ratios+for+rooms+#p116450 Long story short? Room ratios and predictions are only useful to a certain extent. You'll have to measure and treat anyway.The walls are parallel for budget reasons and for predictability and continuity of such echoes and resonant frequencies.
Both will work fine for flutter, and there is certainly nothing wrong with building a rectangular room if you want: there are lots of great rectangular rooms! But don't build it rectangular just because you think it will make it easier to predict modal behavior. Build it rectangular because you like the aesthetics of rectangles, or because you want to maximize use of a small space, or for structural reasons, or for other valid reasons, but it's a common fallacy on the internet that rectangular rooms are somehow better just because you can easily predict the expected modal behavior. In other words, if you want to angle a couple of walls in there, because it will look cool, or because you have the space to do it, or for acoustic reasons, then go ahead! The construction won't be much more difficult. I'm also wondering if there might be a better layout than what you show there...I had intended for absorption panels to cut down my flutter echoes. Do you think it would be just as effective as splaying walls
Well "angled framing covered in mineral wool and cloth" and "hangers" are two different techniques for treating two different issues. You can combine them if you want, but you should really understand why you are doing it, and what the purpose is, not just because you saw it in another room! Yes, you can do that if you want, but the purpose of hangers is not to treat flutter echo.angled framing covered in mineral wool and cloth, maybe a few hangers inside? (similar to what is on the front and back walls of tracking and control rooms)
Angling absorption panels is done for another reason too. Once again, not so much for flutter echo. The idea with acoustic design is to see what problems your room has, and to treat those as necessary, but not over-treat. An over-treated room is a "dead" room: it sounds unnatural, unpleasant, especially for an LR. So if you do angle your walls in your LR, then you are already helping to control flutter echo and wont need so much absorption on the walls for that reason. You might need absorption for other reasons, but at least you won't be putting additional treatment there for flutter, if you see my point.or maybe just angling the absorption panels.....
depends on what you are trying to accomplish! :) It looks like you are aiming at an RFZ design, yes? You are talking about the two side walls at the front, correct? The yellow lines on either side of the desk area, coming almost as far back as the mix position? If so, then that's a good start, and will help, but you will also need absorption on your first reflection points in that area. There may be an issue with your ceiling there, too. You show a very short section of framing coming back a bit towards the desk, labeled "angled ceiling 6 deg". What is that for? 6 degrees on the ceiling is too shallow for RFZ, the framing doesn't go back anywhere near far enough into the room, and doesn't seem to be part of the inner leaf either. Maybe if you can explain what you are trying to achieve with the front end of your room, then we can help you fix that.Is the absorption (will be angled slat walls) on the front of the control room enough of a splay for that room?
Here in Chile, all conduit is PVC. However, there might be rules and regulations in your local building code about that, so you should check up before you decide on materials. PVC conduit will work fine, but of course it won't shield your signal cables as effectively as metal conduit.The piping that will contain the audio cords normally is metal was wondering about other materials
I always get nervous when I see people say "I think that's gonna work" when talking about studio construction! :shock: You should really try to put actual numbers on all of this. For example, what NC curve are you thinking of for your CR? That's a pretty important starting point! "Thinking" and "hoping" and "expecting" are not good ways of designing a studio: This build is going to cost you a lot of money (and to be honest I think your budget is way on the low side right now anyway), so it just seems sensible to make sure that things are going to work out the way you want, rather than just thinking they might. It would be really sad to spend all that money, and then find that the whole thing just doesn't work...Given my experiences I think the isolation will be enough for the one room I have isolated.
You shouldn't really try to duct a unit that isn't designed for ducting, and yes, you most likely will need a silencer in the exhaust duct, but once again that will be determined by your chose NC curve and isolation level.Since I am ductless silencers should not be necessary but I am looking for a good excuse to build one hehehehe. Perhaps surrounding the entire unit with one would be effective if necessary or put one in the exhaust for stale air?
Put it this way: when you isolate a room acoustically, you create two complete hermetic seals around the room, and you surround it with several inches of very thick, very effective thermal insulation. The room is double-airtight. Then you put a lot of people in there, and make them work hard (a rock band playing can work up a decent sweat pretty quick!), plus a lot of hot equipment. What you have, basically, is a dozen hard-working, hot sweaty people, inside a sealed plastic bag wrapped in blankets, inside of another sealed plastic bag... So yes, you are going to need lots of cooling in there! :) People have this other problem: they need to breathe! They need to take in oxygen and they expel CO2 (among other things!), so yes, if you want them to stay alive, then you are going to need ventilation to bring in lots of fresh air, and other ventilation to get rid of the stale air. OK, next problem: As soon as you cut holes in your room to put the ventilation ducts in, you have now totally destroyed the isolation that you spent so much money to create! Now you need to deal with the ducts. You have to put silencers in them, and you have to decouple them correctly. If you don't to that right, then you wasted all the money for isolation. If you don't do it at all, then you have unconscious musicians lying around all over the floor... (or at best, suffering in rather uncomfortable, hot, smelly, conditions: they most likely won't be performing too well like that, either!). Hopefully, your HVAC guy understands all this, and knows how to do the math to calculate how much fresh air you need to bring in to keep the musicians alive and not too "odorous", plus also cool things down to a comfortable level for the people and the equipment, plus keep the humidity at the correct level for the musical instruments, people and equipment. And that he also knows how to do all of that while still retaining the level of isolation that your room needs, and that you paid so much money to get right. And that he also knows how to do all of the above while keeping the air moving slow enough and in the right directions so that it does not make any noise at all! It ain't easy to do all that. It is nothing like an average office of home HVAC system. It has to be QUIET, it has to move the right amount of air at the right speed in the right places and the right direction, it has to control the humidity correctly, and it has to exhaust the stale air correctly, and it has to bring in fresh air correctly, and it has to do all that without damaging your isolation. I don't know if that answered your question? I would really suggest that you re-think your budget. Normally, building a studio costs roughly the same as building a house, per square meter (or square foot). In your case you already have the outer shell, to a certain extent, so your cost is going to be more like a renovation or a conversion than a build. Call a local contractor and ask him how much he charges per square foot to convert a garage into a living room. That will give you an idea of how much this is really going to cost you. Your drawing shows an area of 864 square feet, and you say your budget is around US$5,000. That means you are estimating your cost as roughly 6 dollars per square foot. I'm not sure what building costs are like in North Carolina, but I reckon they will be quite a bit higher than US$ 6 / square foot. Where I live, building costs start at about 15 times that much, and go up from there. So you really should take a careful look at your budget. Sorry for being so blunt, but reality ain't friendly to studio builders! I'm not saying you can't build a studio on your budget, and I'm not trying to rain on your party: I'm just pointing out the reality of real-world costs. This is going to be a lot more expensive than you thought, if you want done right. (And if you don't' want it done right, then why bother doing it at all? So, hopefully you can get materials at a really good price, and that all your labor will be free. Labor is a huge part of building costs, so if that comes in for free, that will help a stack. But there are other ways you can save money: 1) Forget the sliding glass doors. Those alone will eat up most of your budget, if you get the ones you need for good acoustic isolation. And if you don't get the right ones, then you wont get isolation. So just go with blank walls and ordinary hinged solid-core doors. 2) Eliminate one entire isolation wall by moving your LR right next to your CR. Save you stacks! 3) Make the rooms smaller: Yeah it would be great to have such big rooms, but your budget cannot get you there. So make them smaller! 4) Simplify the design of the LR so that it needs less treatment. (Same for the CR, but to a lesser extent.) There are probably other things you can do to reduce costs too, but that's a good starting point. - Stuart -Am I being too naive or passive about this?
"Seeing you respond after so long on this forum is like a hollywood star answering a fan letter "
I guess the OP would have a myocardial infarction if John had anything to say on this thread ;)
Don't worry about being blunt that is why I am here. If I wanted to be toldI am cool and right all the time there are plenty of other sites that do that....
: ok on the budget part. Honestly I added that hastily at the end after reviewing the rules for posting and left out a few things, sorry about that. First of the budget is more like$7000 that was just an oversight. I neglected to tell you the rest of the full budget picture. Many of the materials for this build have already been purchased and are being stored on the property. Most of these items have been purchased at great discounts as I have developed a knack for finding great deals on materials and will continue to do so. Labor will be free. I happen to have several musician friends (with carpenter day jobs )willing to trade studio time for labor and services. I myself also have construction some experience. I agree the budget is still small , which is why certain things have had to be sacrificed, however I believe it can be done..... but we will see! I will respond to other points you made in a bit. And don't worry I have very thick skin .I would really suggest that you re-think your budget. Normally, building a studio costs roughly the same as building a house, per square meter (or square foot). In your case you already have the outer shell, to a certain extent, so your cost is going to be more like a renovation or a conversion than a build. Call a local contractor and ask him how much he charges per square foot to convert a garage into a living room. That will give you an idea of how much this is really going to cost you. Your drawing shows an area of 864 square feet, and you say your budget is around US$5,000. That means you are estimating your cost as roughly 6 dollars per square foot. I'm not sure what building costs are like in North Carolina, but I reckon they will be quite a bit higher than US$ 6 / square foot. Where I live, building costs start at about 15 times that much, and go up from there. So you really should take a careful look at your budget. Sorry for being so blunt, but reality ain't friendly to studio builders! I'm not saying you can't build a studio on your budget, and I'm not trying to rain on your party: I'm just pointing out the reality of real-world costs. This is going to be a lot more expensive than you thought, if you want done right. (And if you don't' want it done right, then why bother doing it at all? So, hopefully you can get materials at a really good price, and that all your labor will be free. Labor is a huge part of building costs, so if that comes in for free, that will help a stack.
Ok now to the meat and potatoes of your excellent post reply.
This weekend I went out to the buidling and looked at my drawing and decided to splay a few of the walls in the LR. I think it can be done without sacrificing too much space and may even save some money.
Yes I Was thinking more space conservation but I did not intent for hangers to cut flutters.Well "angled framing covered in mineral wool and cloth" and "hangers" are two different techniques for treating two different issues. You can combine them if you want, but you should really understand why you are doing it, and what the purpose is, not just because you saw it in another room! Yes, you can do that if you want, but the purpose of hangers is not to treat flutter echo.
So if I am understanding your point correctly it is address known first reflection points and flutter echo in the design phase?. Deal with RT times and frequency balance after room is built and measurements are made?The idea with acoustic design is to see what problems your room has, and to treat those as necessary, but not over-treat. An over-treated room is a "dead" room: it sounds unnatural, unpleasant, especially for an LR. So if you do angle your walls in your LR, then you are already helping to control flutter echo and wont need so much absorption on the walls for that reason. You might need absorption for other reasons, but at least you won't be putting additional treatment there for flutter, if you see my point.
yest looks like you are aiming at an RFZ design, yes?
yes plan to use the ol' mirror trickf so, then that's a good start, and will help, but you will also need absorption on your first reflection points in that area
I was trying to cut reflection by essentially splaying the ceiling. The reason it is shallow was so I could easily inccorporate it into the framing there for rfz and soffit mount. at the point it ends I had planned to add 2 angled ceiling clouds to cut first reflections and prevent flutter echo from ceiling to floor. Is there a better way?Maybe if you can explain what you are trying to achieve with the front end of your room, then we can help you fix that.
I hope to have an NC20 - 30 for both outside rooms the center room doesn't matter that much. The control may have to be less. Fortunately, I live so far out in the county (rural area) my main exterior noises are the crickets, bugs , birds and the occasional truck over 300 yard away. Inside my poorly insulated house built in 1856 my The HVAC is a ductless Mini split and it already had low noise settings. My make shift fresh air ventilation is also low noise (once again I got a guy who wholesales these low noise fans) and it is the only part of the unit with exterior access. I plan to make a silencer for both input and output for fresh and stale air. The powered unit itself will not be in the Live room so that should not be an issue. When I say I think it will work out I have to go with what I have seen work in the past and try to improve on that. This is not my first build just my most informed. (thanks to you and the rest of the forum)I always get nervous when I see people say "I think that's gonna work" when talking about studio construction! You should really try to put actual numbers on all of this. For example, what NC curve are you thinking of for your CR?
I have a huge unit for the building size and already have very nice dehumidifier if need be. I have a way to get air in and out without disturbing my isolation or be able to get writing satisfactory distance of my NC curve target. I also plan to install a CO2 detector so we will know if the air quality gets too low. These dozen hard working musician scenarios will be the high end of my needs. 80% it will be 3 or less doing overdubs or mixing. this studio is for personal use so full on tracking sessions with entire rock bands will few and far between. The(isolated) live room on the far right will one person at a time about 75% percent while the other 25% will be 4 or fewer. I have built studios with a lot less ventilation and things all worked out fine after a nice well needed session beneficial break. Although theoretically you are 100% right "I think" meaning in my experience these issues get worked out on the practical end. I just don't see all these sweaty musicians working long enough without break to eat up all the air in the room.when you isolate a room acoustically, you create two complete hermetic seals around the room, and you surround it with several inches of very thick, very effective thermal insulation. The room is double-airtight. Then you put a lot of people in there, and make them work hard (a rock band playing can work up a decent sweat pretty quick!), plus a lot of hot equipment. What you have, basically, is a dozen hard-working, hot sweaty people, inside a sealed plastic bag wrapped in blankets, inside of another sealed plastic bag... So yes, you are going to need lots of cooling in there!
The answer is a simple yes. He is a national expert , leads conferences to other technicians and contractors and has even been involved with developing cutting edge indoor air quality and efficiency standards. He has earned awards by our President and even presented an award by VP Joe Biden. Not to say he is the end all be all but he is more than capable of taking into account the purpose of the room, it' s airflow , fresh air , humidity on requirements all while preserving isolation. I have informed him of this post and he is keeping an eye on it so I am essentially letting your comments speak to him and changes made accordingly I will keep you posted about his responses. I spoke about budget in my last post but here are some more considerations I have made:Hopefully, your HVAC guy understands all this, and knows how to do the math to calculate how much fresh air you need to bring in to keep the musicians alive and not too "odorous", plus also cool things down to a comfortable level for the people and the equipment, plus keep the humidity at the correct level for the musical instruments, people and equipment. And that he also knows how to do all of that while still retaining the level of isolation that your room needs, and that you paid so much money to get right. And that he also knows how to do all of the above while keeping the air moving slow enough and in the right directions so that it does not make any noise at all! It ain't easy to do all that. It is nothing like an average office of home HVAC system. It has to be QUIET, it has to move the right amount of air at the right speed in the right places and the right direction, it has to control the humidity correctly, and it has to exhaust the stale air correctly, and it has to bring in fresh air correctly, and it has to do all that without damaging your isolation.
already purchased them and got a great deal...... have three sets one for control room and two for live room for easy decouple of all walls1) Forget the sliding glass doors. Those alone will eat up most of your budget, if you get the ones you need for good acoustic isolation. And if you don't get the right ones, then you wont get isolation. So just go with blank walls and ordinary hinged solid-core doors.
well that one really isn't my style2) Eliminate one entire isolation wall by moving your LR right next to your CR. Save you stacks
I think my budget with all I have told you in my last post can make it. However this statement got me thinking of a way to splay walls make the room slightly smaller, maintain the same effective usable space, still feel like a good sized room and save some stack...3) Make the rooms smaller: Yeah it would be great to have such big rooms, but your budget cannot get you there. So make them smaller!
I believe splaying the rooms (as I mentioned before) will reduce flutter echoes, and need for so much treatment so save some more money woo hoo.4) Simplify the design of the LR so that it needs less treatment. (Same for the CR, but to a lesser extent.)
keep the suggestions coming great food for thought and lots of great info. Thanks so much for taking the time to post. I will have an updated drawing very soon. then you can pick that apart, I can make changes and my studio get better !!!!! Thanks, JohnThere are probably other things you can do to reduce costs too, but that's a good starting point.