how to make my room better...

Hi, I'm having a little homestudio in the top room of my house. I want to use the room to make the mix and record vocals/acc.guitar. How/where to apply acoustic treatment? What type of do it yourself stuff can i use. I'am a newbie. Please help. This is a topview and a sideview of my room. I'm using genelec 1029a Thanks for your help!!!

Greetings and welcome!

How/where to apply acoustic treatment?

In a word, everywhere you can. John's wall panel designs (link from front page of this site) will give you a bunch of good ideas about how and where to put stuff up- it's geared toward do-it-yourself-ers, but if you're handy at carpentry you can save yourself a lot of cash and headaches. I'm not sure if having the desk pressed against the 'right' wall there is going to have a big effect on your stereo imaging, but I can understand why you want it clear of that heater... Easiest places to put up acoustic treatment are these... rigid insulation panels flat against the wall in every spot that reflects sound directly from your speakers to your mix position, and more rigid insulation panels straddling the corners to soak up low frequency sound. The next step up from there is John Sayer's wall panels I mentioned above. Moving up from there would mean moving walls, and probably finding a larger space to work in. Hope this helps Kase www.minemusic.net

Shrink your graphic so that we can get a picture of the whole forrest.

AVare wrote:

Shrink your graphic so that we can get a picture of the whole forrest.

Beter like this? Sorry for the big ones......

dymaxian wrote:

Greetings and welcome!

Thanks! I hope to learn a lot here...

dymaxian wrote:

Easiest places to put up acoustic treatment are these... rigid insulation panels flat against the wall in every spot that reflects sound directly from your speakers to your mix position, and more rigid insulation panels straddling the corners to soak up low frequency sound.

So i go around with a mirror to find those places? What type of material should i use here to aply to the walls? Traps or foam? Are these DIY absorbers OK you think.... http://www.bobgolds.com/TrapMartin/home.htm What should i build in the corners? Only the corners in the back near the window or all 4??

dymaxian wrote:

The next step up from there is John Sayer's wall panels I mentioned above.

Yes, that would be nice...but in a future building.....;) Thanks a lot !!

So i go around with a mirror to find those places?

Yep. You may have to make a guess as to where on the ceiling these panels should go, but then again the ceiling works out best when it is more absorbent, and when the floor is more reflective. Many studios have hardwood floors and lots of insulation on the ceiling for this reason. With the ceiling you have, this won't be quite so big a deal, but it'd still help out.

What type of material should i use here to aply to the walls? Traps or foam?

I'd avoid the foam. The best sound treatment you can get, dollar for dollar, is rigid fiberglass insulation. We normally refer to it as 703, because Owens-Corning uses that number to denominate their product, but many manufacturers make the stuff. That's what the guy in your link was using inside of his traps. It works just as well as foam, if not better, and is much less expensive. You'll have to look a little harder for it- insulation supply companies will carry it, but Home Depot does not. Anyway, it usually comes in panels 2'x4', and of varying thicknesses. For the side-wall panels (where you'd use a mirror to find early reflection points) I'd use 2" panels- you can use 4" if you like, but at least 2". Wrap it with fabric, and hang it on the wall in the right spot. There's recommendations on how to go about wrapping it, and hanging it, all over the board, so I won't retype it here.

Are these DIY absorbers OK you think.... http://www.bobgolds.com/TrapMartin/home.htm

Those will work for mid- and high-freq absorbers. You'll need some low-freq stuff, too. Take a look at http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html - it's Ethan Winer's acoustics FAQ, but in there are plans for low-freq panel traps. Try to make your room absorb evenly across the entire sound spectrum. The corners are pretty easy. Ethan talks about those in his FAQ. The simplest solution is to just wrap 2" thick rigid fiberglass panels with fabric, and strap them across the corners at 45-degree angles. The corners are where bass freqs build up the most, so this alone will do a lot for the sound of your room. Bigger, more involved corner units can be built later, or in another room. Kase www.minemusic.net

Kase, Thanks for your reply... I go for the fibreglass in wooden frames. Should i hang them with a space between wool and wall? These are my room responces without absorbers...

Jeroen, > These are my room responces without absorbers < That's what you think! :D I use ETF too, and the 1/3 octave display is woefully inadequate for assessing the true response. Much better is the Low Frequency Response graph, though that stops at 200 Hz. For the regular Log plot you show, set it to display 1/12 octave. In fact, tell it to show both 1/3 and 1/12 octave at the same time for a good lesson in how increasing resolution improves accuracy and reveals more detail. --Ethan

Ethan, Thanks for your advice. I will look at 1/12 ..... I want to make 2" sidebar's with fibrewool, should i hang them a few inches from the wall? Same also for the (my) ceiling?

Jeroen, > Thanks for your advice. I will look at 1/12 < Again, even 1/12 octave is inadequate for assessing the low frequency response in a room. Use the swept sine wave signal and use the LF plot. > I want to make 2" sidebar's with fibrewool, should i hang them a few inches from the wall? < Yes, an air gap extends the absorption to lower frequencies. --Ethan

Ethan, I've red your article. http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html - Thx for this great info. But, what sould i do with my ceilings. They are not normal, they have an /\ angle. And the backside wall...shall i make 1 big absorber? Or a John Sayers rear wall? How to threat the walls where my vocal mics are standing? Also 2" absorbers? And the backside ceiling? I now a lot of questions, but i have not seen an example of a room like mine. With a ceiling like /\ this.... Thanks!!!

Jeroen, > what sould i do with my ceilings. They are not normal, they have an /\ angle. < Hang rigid fiberglass panels under the peak. You can see an example of this in the center photo, lower row, on the main page of my company's web site linked under my name below. Those photos show the panels my company sells, but the basic idea is exactly the same. --Ethan

Ethan, Thanks for al your knowledge and advice! I've taken with etf my bass responce with a low range sweep. What a difference between the mix position and a position near the rearwall! (pic1= rearwall, pic2=mixpos) What a dips!!! I will make some basstraps like you have showed on the video and pictures on your site http://www.realtraps.com/ to fix my room. I liked the videos :) good info! Should i also make smaller traps at the sidewalls and above the mix pos like on the video or are the 2" ones also fine for the higer frequenties? thanks again for your help! Jeroen

Jeroen, > What a dips!!! < No kidding. The amazing thing is all rooms are like this, yet most people have no idea their rooms are so bad. They're too busy trying to decide what overpiced mike preamp or tube compressor to buy, rather than address the horrible LF response in their control room! :D > Should i also make smaller traps at the sidewalls and above the mix pos like on the video < Yes, absorption at the first reflection points is always a good idea. --Ethan

"They're too busy trying to decide what overpiced mike preamp or tube compressor to buy" I understand your point but it's hardly fair to say everyone buys over priced preamps...lol. Cheers, Chris

Anyone who owns an outboard preamp has purchased on overpriced preamp. Maybe overpriced isn't the world. Maybe unneeded is. I have a pair of Neve 1272 preamps and then I've got a Mackie 1604. I really don't hear a million dollars of difference between the two preamps. However, I could tell that just stacking some rockwool (still in the package) around a Marshall and Mesa cabinet improved my guitar recording 5 fold. All the room crap seamed to dissapear. Keep in mind that this was just building a fort around the cabinets. I can't wait to hear my mixes when I get finished with the room. I may even start appreciating my Neve preamp when I can actually hear a difference. I don't care what anyone says. The stupid effects you have to add to vocals usually make 10x the difference than the mic does. I've got a cd where a vocal take was done with an SM 58 and Neumann U87. If there is a difference, there certainly isn't a clear winner. I should have ordered a truck of Rockwool instead of buying my Neve preamp 2 years ago. Brandon

brandondrury wrote:

Anyone who owns an outboard preamp has purchased on overpriced preamp. Maybe overpriced isn't the world. Maybe unneeded is. I have a pair of Neve 1272 preamps and then I've got a Mackie 1604. I really don't hear a million dollars of difference between the two preamps. However, I could tell that just stacking some rockwool (still in the package) around a Marshall and Mesa cabinet improved my guitar recording 5 fold. All the room crap seamed to dissapear. Keep in mind that this was just building a fort around the cabinets. I can't wait to hear my mixes when I get finished with the room. I may even start appreciating my Neve preamp when I can actually hear a difference. I don't care what anyone says. The stupid effects you have to add to vocals usually make 10x the difference than the mic does. I've got a cd where a vocal take was done with an SM 58 and Neumann U87. If there is a difference, there certainly isn't a clear winner. I should have ordered a truck of Rockwool instead of buying my Neve preamp 2 years ago. Brandon

I'm not sure how long you've been at this but I have a feeling not to long.I also have a feeling that once you gain more experience and start hearing things differently you will look back at your "Anyone who owns an outboard preamp has purchased on overpriced preamp. Maybe overpriced isn't the world. Maybe unneeded is." And realize that many people (hopefully including yourself) can and do indeed notice quite a difference,between a mackie and a 1272. Sometimes maybe you'd think the mackie is better for the source material but there is definitely a different color.Your comments make it look like alot of experienced AE's are and have been for years using expensive stuff (like great mics)for the hell of it.I completely disagree with you sorry.Glad you're starting to get a handle on your acoustics though. Chris

I hope my post didn't turn out wrong. The point was that if your monitoring system has dips and peaks of -30 db, then the Neve wont' make a lot of difference. If the room rings when a singer wails, there won't be any difference. If a room is "boxy" sounding, then no preamp will take that boxiness away. I guess I was just saying that people get the chain confused and go for the mic and preamp and recording and mix in the most places possible. I know, I've done it. I've been doing this a few years and I'm definitely in the learning process. It's important to note that experienced engineers typically work in nice studios where a professional acoustical engineer designed the studio. These studios have tall ceilings, avoid parallel walls, etc. If my assumption is correct, then the experienced engineer does not have to worry about the effects of a wall being two feet away from the hihat. Once the room is right, little things like mics, preamps, and compressor become more important. My thoughts were with the modern home studio revolution that most people probably have horrible rooms (myself included) and buying an expensive mic and preamp shouldn't be the priority. I posted a few of my MP3s on another forum. Everyone instantly shouted "THE ROOM! THE ROOM! THE ROOM!". No one noticed that I ran an AKG 414 through a Neve. I guess that's my point. I hope no one got upset. A lot of the room thing can be the difference between character. However, most bands I record want to sound like a certain band. They want big drums....not living room drums. I wish I was recording bands that just wanted a sound put on a cd and just wanted their music on a playback format. Unfortunately, everyone wants to sound like Tool and it's impossible to do that without a great room. Thanks Brandon

You got it right Brandon. Great gear in a crappy room is like a Lexus with a Yugo Engine. Looking pretty and going nowhere fast. LOL After completion of my room, my cheap mics sounded ten times better. Of course I have good mics to, but the chepy deepies actually became very useful. The strange and odd coloration they exhibit finally had a place in my mic closet that i could truly appreciate. Now they are tools instead of wasted money. And my good mics sound even better. So yeah get the room right 1st, then spend the massive money on gear. I use cheap tools and expensive tools and I look at them all the same way now, just another tool. Instead of .. Ooo this is the mic. U gotta buy it, it is fat!!!!! LOL. Matter of fact, just completed a rap project, put up the expensive mic and ran through a few of them and then put up the $80.00 MXL mic and it was the right TOOL for the job. Outdoing the BLUE mic and the AKG mic. Bryan Giles

I just wish the ads in the magazines would have told me to buy acoustic treatment and then buy fancy condensor mics and expensive preamps. Oh well, you learn as you go. Brandon

Brandon, > I just wish the ads in the magazines would have told me to buy acoustic treatment and then buy fancy condensor mics and expensive preamps. < I am trying as hard as I possibly can to change that. --Ethan

Keep fighting for the good guys, Ethan. You are much appreciated and respected and for good reason. I sometimes wonder if your overgenerosity with knowledge cuts into your business. I've never scene plans to build a product on a site that actually sells the product. You seam to know what your doing, though. In regard to the magazines, I think the average intern at a large studio doesn't have to worry about acoustics or the design of the control room. The fact that a pro designed it sort of takes it out of the problem equation. However, the home recording thing is so different yet the articles we read are from guys working in "real" studios. A compressor, an eq, or A/D convertor might even been noticable in such a studio. Thanks again Ethan, Brandon

Brandon, > I sometimes wonder if your overgenerosity with knowledge cuts into your business. < I'm sure it does. But I believe so strongly in the importance of acoustic treatment that I'd rather see someone build their own or buy from a competitor than do without. > the average intern at a large studio doesn't have to worry about acoustics or the design of the control room. < Yes, this is a big factor, and not just for interns. I've even seen pros argue against the importance of treatment because, I assume, they never had to think about it in the rooms they work. A few months ago some guy who claimed to be a pro, anyway, said it's all about which mikes, pres, and outboard gear you use. He insisted that acoustic treatment was irrelevant. And Yes, he was absolutely serious! :roll: --Ehan

Eventually, I'll get my studio perfect, forget how much work it took to get it there, and then claim how wonderful all my mics, preamps, and compressors are too. Brandon