Thinking differently about the studio project

Hi guys. I recently started a thread about designing and building a full blown isolated studio. My first design and first build. Yes, I actually thought I could do it. It was more of an accident than anything, I just started researching and designing and that's what I ended up with (I enjoy the subject entirely, though). I just had to go all out instead of thinking about efficiency and flexibility. Anyway... Here is the previous thread in case you want to laugh at a noob: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15985 <I just finished typing this and realized yep! It's another long one... I know it's a lot to read but I could really use your help on this one! I want to start building something!> We're not going to go that route. We are going to sacrifice the isolation and gain flexibility. We know we'll have some acoustic and electrical problems, as well as being able to hear the HVAC. The space will be used for: - Rehearsal and recording (close miking w/ large diaphragm dynamic) - Group classes (2 classes at a time with curtains / some type of divider) - Recitals - Video production - Acoustic engineering practice :) Here's what we're planning on for a $5,000 starting budget (construction material, electrician, painter costs only, I'll be building everything myself): - Clean up conduit, wire outlets to exposed walls and booth - Install diffusers at end of branch ducts. - Paint ceiling ***EDIT*** - Build wall on left side wall of CR to create symmetry for 1st reflection points. Steel stud with 5/8" drywall on the OUTSIDE. Rockwool in the cavities, cloth and possibly slats. - Build steel stud treatment wall on right side of CR, no drywall, rockwool, cloth, possibly slats. - Install hat channel (or RC if it helps with acoustics, not just isolation) to remaining concrete, install 5/8" drywall. - Build John's "portable" iso booth to have an option for isolated recording (install outlet and fan) - Soffit mount Focal Twin 6be monitors into modular removable "cabinet". Hangers below with ventilation (John's design) - Acoustically treat rooms with the intent of taking the treatment with us if we move out of the building. - Install something to divide the 2 rooms that is easily removable. We have velvet curtains that would work, I just don't like the idea for the front "wall" of the control room. - Install solid core door to hallway in live room - Install laminate flooring - Space must look finished, except for the ceiling. Sketchup: Layout (yep, angled walls): I'm looking for a solution to treat the control room for even stereo imaging, decent RT60 and response (but no number is critical). Assuming everything is going to be removable: - Build acoustic hanger for window opening (plenty of room there) - Cloud covering first reflection point on ceiling (4 - 2x4 4" 703 traps) - 4 - 2x4 - 4" 703 traps at side first reflection points (2 left, 2 right) - Tri-traps at all trihedral corners out of 703 - Removable super chunk style corners (walls and ceilings) That's where I run in to the problems that I'm sure you all noticed at first glance of the layout. So, here's my questions: What can we do with this space to accomplish our goals? What can we do about the symmetry issues in the CR (back left corner)? ***EDIT**** I answered the 2 following questions near the top of this post! Are we going to have to build a stud wall with a layer of drywall to mirror the one on the right side of the CR? If we do that, should I have the drywall facing the concrete block so we can fill the cavity with rockwool, and then build a treatment wall on the right side of the CR? Maybe use slots instead of just 703 at side first reflections if we build walls? Should I build a bass trap in the back of the CR? It would leave a "hallway" for people to get in and out of the room. I'm thinking a hanger trap in the middle, with enough room for people to walk between it and the corner traps. Could the iso booth be treated on the outside to benefit the room in any way? Where would be the best spot for the booth? It seems like having it in the back "nook" of the CR would at least help with the fact that there should be a dividing wall there (for acoustic purposes). It would reflect and absorb at least some. Any better ideas? Live Room: How does this sound - super chunk and tri-trap corners (respectively)? Start with staggered 2" panel absorbers and 4" bass traps on the walls, moving them around with the instruments? I'm assuming that I need to treat both sides of the steel beam with bass trapping? 4 - 2x4 - 4" 703 cloud in here, too? Any ideas for creating portable absorption panels that could be hung from the top of the large opening to provide temporary absorption? What do you think of this new plan? I'm basically glad that we're going this route. It should be a lot easier to gain experience. I'm almost done with a modular isolation room design for a room in my house. That was a lot easier (10'x9'8") and it can be dismantled. I'm working on figuring out treatment there, too. I know, it's a lot of questions. I'm not very confident in my acoustic abilities (or lack thereof) since I haven't tried anything in real life. I think I'll get it after and while I build it. ***EDIT*** I'm reading "Master Handbook of Acoustics" and really kicking myself for reading Rod's book 10+ times without reading this. I'm only through chapter 2 so far but it is making way more sense now that I'm doing some real calculations and understanding the logarithmic concept of sound measurement. Thanks for reading, I hope everyone's enjoying their weekend.

i think the CR would be better in the slanted room. put a wall across the bottom wall to make the two walls square across the front. then treat first reflection points and corners. plenty big enough for mix class as well as musicians in that room. then make the larger room the live room, perhaps with a heavy duty panel door sliding rail and use some sheets of plywood and cloth covered absorbers to make a room divider. or just some tall gobos and a very heavy drape across the top.

I'm with you 100%. I took some screen shots and described them with paint. I also thought of another issue: If the speed of sound increases when it travels through a medium other than air particles, and steel is 15 times faster than air, isn't all of the steel going to ruin the isolation that we do? How do you handle the steel I-beams and the ductwork? Soffit everything off (or build iso wall to cover) and stuff with insulation or just fill the stud cavity? Should I concentrate on these areas first? Here's what I've got right now: Going to remove the drywall and install batt on the studio side of these walls: Thanks Glenn, I feel a lot better about it all now. I think although this isn't an ideal setup, it will still perform really well. There are a few things going for us (iso-wise). I'll go over this with the owner tomorrow and I'm sure we'll finally be on the right track.

My thoughts on a grand piano in our space: From a not-so-scientific standpoint, I am naturally in favor of a large treated space that has a lot of room to disperse sound. I picture a performance area being a large, wide open space with very high ceilings. Let’s choose the best room to put a piano in: Large room: Lack of insulation in the hollow floor (with a concrete slab below in the basement) and ceiling will make for a “big” ambiance. The 12’4” ceiling height also adds to this. If you forget about the layer of ⅜” drywall, the ceiling is actually 13’. The piano and audience could be shifted in any number of ways. Among other layouts, a baby grand would fit in the small corner of this room, and allow for the entire rest of the area to be filled with an audience. Concrete room: I can’t think of anything good. It’s just one step further from being outside and only having a sound wave hit you once. The insulated ceiling and concrete floor is responsible. There would be a drum kit, iso booth, keyboard, guitar/bass amps, and now a piano. 6” shorter ceiling height. My opinion: The piano should go in the large room, obviously. Aside from the acoustic issues, there would be less clutter, no ramps to go up and down with instruments/gear, more than 1 possibility for recital layouts. With a set of PA speakers, projector and an iPad, you could still do the recording classes in the live room if your heart so desired. The options for that would be the same whether you isolated between the 2 rooms or not. I think it’s safe to say that cramming all of this flexibility into our space is asking a lot. I’ve convinced myself what needs to be done in a scientific, general, and business manner. Business-wise, I think it’s crazy to think that we can do every single brilliant idea all at once, with minimal staff. We already have too much on our plates, and now, we’re adding another service to offer clients into our plan. Adding the element of a performance hall into the mix sure doesn’t seem to make sense with the amount of space we have. A Swiss Army knife only has so many blades. You’re never going to have enough options to be able to handle every situation. I’ve come to terms with the fact that you can’t have the best of all worlds in a limited space, unless you spend an exorbitant amount of $$$. Here are 2 layouts for recitals that should be plenty for students' families. If we have the problem of "not enough space for all of the piano recitals we're doing because of too much business", I'm sure we'll be able to afford to rent a space just for performances. Which we already have in the basement, it just couldn't house a piano (which is where the live room layout I'm proposing would take care of it). I'm really getting sick of this. If this isn't good enough then I don't know what is. I've spent enough time going back and forth, we need to start building and have a common focus. I need to put the design issue to rest. Any opinions?

I think you are on the right track. On the isolation, soffit in the beams and pipes. Use the uneven spaces to fit in room treatments like polys hung from the ceiling.

Okay, we have a decision! We are scrapping the idea of having a recording studio and building a performance hall instead. We will save the studio for later when we have more space. It was a hard pill to swallow for the first few minutes but I've digested it and I'm ready to do this. It will be very simple. I'll post progress updates as we go in order to turn this into a build diary! Thanks to everyone who has answered questions (especially Glenn), as well as everyone who has posted valuable information to the forum. Time to go!

***Great news!*** Please ignore the above post. After presenting my case and injecting a little emotion, we're going ahead with the studio. We are building isolation walls to enclose the CR and putting in a window and door between the 2 rooms. The RC1 would've been ridiculous on those concrete walls. Putting together framing details tonight. Electrician coming Thursday for demo. Hoping for materials by the end of the week, but early next week would be okay. I've got a lot of prep work to do first. *I'm framing the walls all the way across, so their will be a large air gap between the 2 rooms (like 20" between stud walls). I'm thinking 5/4x12 window and door jambs fastened to each wall with a gap in the middle. Window and door perimeters (gap) filled with rockwool, rubber stripping and capped with cloth covered rigid fiberglass. Just my initial thoughts on the detail. -Any suggestions on how to transition between floor heights for the door threshold? I'll be building a new ramp, and concrete blocks come to mind initially. *There are issues underneath the commercial aluminum (clip system with 1" insulated glass) window. It's a double 2x4 wall with plywood exterior. R13 fiberglass batt in each stud cavity. The top of the window is block exterior, 2x4 interior, so it's almost like there was a door there at one time. I'm planning on removing the interior studs since I'll be framing a new steel wall. -Is this one of those situations where I'd want to install 3 layers of drywall between the exterior studs and seal the entire opening and around all drywall with acoustic caulk (each layer)? Even better, should I use a few tubes of GG to adhere the drywall to the plywood (and each successive layer of drywall? -Should I try to install multiple layers of drywall around the perimeter of the window, and caulk it to the window frame itself? Maybe create a gap to decouple and treat it like the studio window, with seals and by adding a lite of laminated glass with stops? At the top and sides of the window opening, I think all I'd really be able to do is caulk the concrete block to the drywall. -Is there anything else I could do with the window? It has to stay, unfortunately. Any changes to the exterior of the building are difficult as we're in a historical district and everything has to be reviewed. I don't want any delays if I can avoid them. This is going to be awesome!

gullfo wrote:

I think you are on the right track. On the isolation, soffit in the beams and pipes. Use the uneven spaces to fit in room treatments like polys hung from the ceiling.

2 of the beams will be covered by a new wall. Should I incorporate the soffit into the wall framing so it can hold the insulation up? There would be enough room where I could potentially frame a separate soffit with insulation decoupled from the new wall (but coupled to the ceiling). If the vibrations from the beam are going to transfer into the new wall through the ceiling anyway, should I just build the soffit and wall framing assemblies together? It would save me a few studs and tracks and hours.

With the window, you want to put enough mass there and not create a triple or quad leaf. Green glue is not glue, in this case 3x drywall beefing up the inside of weather proper shearing and finish works, or maybe replace all that with block. On the soffits, you build them as part of your isolation walls/ceiling. Are you making room within a room or just adding isolation walls because the ceiling is good enough? If you are building ceilings, what type of steel framing are you planning on using? Maybe consider wood framing instead? On the floor, if the floor needs to be filled, you might leave enough space so the door frame sits flush when finished and fill the rest with concrete.

gullfo wrote:

On the soffits, you build them as part of your isolation walls/ceiling. Are you making room within a room or just adding isolation walls because the ceiling is good enough? If you are building ceilings, what type of steel framing are you planning on using? Maybe consider wood framing instead?

Just adding isolation walls, ceilings will work as they are. We can install resilient channel and drywall to the ceiling joists in the live room in the future if we want to. I'm planning on removing the ceiling drywall from the front edge of the new framing to the existing walls (about a 12" strip all around). Wouldn't that be considered "removing a flanking path"?

yes, having the air gap would contribute to removing a flanking path but having directly coupled framing mitigates that effort so make sure the framing is decoupled.

gullfo wrote:

yes, having the air gap would contribute to removing a flanking path but having directly coupled framing mitigates that effort so make sure the framing is decoupled.

Thanks Glenn!

triplej333 wrote:

I'm planning on removing the ceiling drywall from the front edge of the new framing to the existing walls (about a 12" strip all around). Wouldn't that be considered "removing a flanking path"?

The framing will continue to be the flanking path. The drywall isn't the path, it is just a cover over the skeleton, the skeleton being the bones that exist in the assembly of this structure.

I'm thinking I'll at least use IB3 clips to decouple the framing.

Hi everyone, I can't believe I haven't posted in 6 weeks! Hope everybody's been well. I thought I'd post a little status update. I drew and submitted my first ever set of commercial prints. 9 pages - 24"x36" and it's been 2 weeks. Apparently the reviewer would have called me if he had any questions, so I must've given him some hard work :wink: I'm pretty confident that the plans will suffice, although I'm not an architect. In the meantime, I've been working on demo, fixing problem areas, and some electrical. We'll be doing more extensive electrical demo and re-routing next week. We've decided that the control room is going to have to suffer, budget-wise. It would just cost way too much to take care of the HVAC and create true isolation. So, we're going to worry more about decoupling the live room. The LR floor is 2 layers of subfloor over joists, and we'll install laminate flooring. The CR is on a separate engineered concrete slab so flanking should be much less of an issue than if both rooms were on the same floor system. CR summary :blah: : -4 new steel stud walls (inner leaf of M-A-M, concrete is outer leaf) caulked to concrete floor, 3/4" track pins. Isolation clips fastening ceiling joists to new walls. Leaving existing ceiling drywall coupled to joists, which are also a separate roof system from the LR. Lots of conduit, junction boxes and ductwork that we prefer to leave alone for now. -1 layer of drywall so it's easier to demo if we ever decide to sink $40-50,000 into a quiet HVAC system and rebuild the room -Double door into LR, double window into LR, single door into hallway -18 gauge steel stud soffit / ceiling to hide steel beam and HVAC inlet and outlet -Laminate flooring over the rough concrete -Exposed main supply duct (yeah, very noisy, about 67-70 dB, 900 fpm) and diffusers -LR, hallway and office HVAC returns all have to penetrate the CR's walls -Return silencer/baffle box will be installed between the 2 rooms, concealed in the 14" air gap, underneath the dividing window. It will be awesome. I hope... :D Okay, now for some better news! LR Summary: -Clips and hat channel on the ceiling, R30 batt insulation, soffit containing flex duct and silencer going down the middle -3 longest walls will be double wall M-A-M (1 dividing CR/LR, 1 is existing block, 1 is existing wood). New walls will be 25 gauge steel. Isolation clips connecting to ceiling joists. -3 shortest walls will just get RC1 (actually Deitrich RC Deluxe) since they aren't directly adjacent to any of the lesson rooms (hallway and rear exit / electrical room). Just achieving basic decoupling will work well with budget and space in those areas. -2 layers of drywall everywhere, likely with Green Glue (depends on how well we can work within the budget over the next month) -Laminate flooring for now. We could always pour an isolated slab if it becomes a major issue. The concrete would either have to be mixed inside or wheelbarrowed in. Not fun. -Isolated ground receptacles for both rooms. No lighting will penetrate the ceiling, just properly sealed boxes with switched receptacles to allow for flexibility with lighting. Acoustics: -Soffit mount monitors -Traps in corners, absorbers at first reflections in CR -We'll likely use corner traps, some panel absorbers and bass traps, and gobos in the LR. -Clouds in both rooms I'm at $25,000 to do all of that. That doesn't include gear or any of my labor. Hopefully we can expand and build the $300,000 studio next door some day. Pictures and descriptions: CR Skylight housings originally hung down 4' from the ceiling. Demo'd flush. Will finish repairing after wall is framed. LR window - exterior sheathing and framing under window was rotted and leaking. Looks like there was a doorway at one time. The building used to be a Buick dealership! That's probably why there's the 12'x8' opening between CR/LR, to drive the car into the showroom LOL!!! Here's my magnificent masonry work :roll: . Not too bad for my first time, in my opinion. It's not critical. Re-framed under the window, filled the cavity with R11, vapor barrier, plywood, trim, caulk. No more leaking. Pic of the freshly demo'd ceiling in the LR. It was brittle 3/8" drywall with ring shank nails @ 4" on center! PITA! Not to mention all of the dirt and dust it kicked up. Here's me after demolishing the ceiling. What a mess! :D Hoping for a permit in the next few days!

maybe you can wrap the exposed duct to dampen it and cut some of the noise?

gullfo wrote:

maybe you can wrap the exposed duct to dampen it and cut some of the noise?

That's going to have to happen. I'll definitely wrap the part of the duct that is going to be covered by the soffit. For a seal, I was thinking I'd cut strips of 1/2" neoprene, caulk them to the duct and then frame + caulk tight. I'd attach 2 layers of drywall (strips 3 5/8" wide) to each steel framing member, caulk it, then assemble it around the duct (into the soffit framing). That would help take care of a problem that couldn't be fixed down the road. We'll have to see how the CR sounds with the AC running after it's done. The owners like the look of the exposed ductwork. I prefer the idea of building a soffit. We'll see. It's almost 100 degrees here today. Heat index of 134 in Moorhead, MN yesterday. It was the hottest place on the planet (literally). We broke a 120 year old dew point record with 82 degrees yesterday. I'm glad I'm not doing exteriors anymore!

Update - I tore off the rest of the drywall in the LR and am going to install resilient channel on those walls. It's a good thing I did, there's not even any insulation there. I'm really bummed out about the permit process. The landlord never told us that our occupancy was under review, and the process started in April. I could have been dealing with it this whole time. The fire marshal inspected the building and we have to make some corrections in the basement where our stage/performance area is. It sounds like we'll just have to build some fire rated walls to create a hallway. So, that's holding up the permit. I'm not going to give up, staying resilient. I asked the landlord to hand all issues with the building over to me so they are dealt with. They gladly obliged and it seems like they'll write out the checks if I do their jobs for them. We've had some intense rain that showed a few water issues in the back of the building. It's sort of a good thing that the studio isn't done, as we would've found out about the water the hard way. The landlord is paying to have a small flat roof re-done, and some excavation and a new concrete slab in the back exterior. I've been tinkering with some small projects in the meantime. I'm about to start an LLC and I've created a website. Learning HTML and I'm going to build the site with Joomla 1.6 (I know Joomla quite well, but not much HTML). The LLC will be consulting and design, specializing in residential remodeling and construction, but also offering acoustics and isolation. I'm going with Vibrant Spectrum as the creative part of the business name.