new studio build in Oregon 10,000 budget over one year

Ok, here goes, given the faq's a good look. The singer in the band I'm in (the subterranean howl) and I would like to build and run a recording studio together. I believe (in my belief engine :lol: ) that isolation will be our first and biggest concern. My garage is 27' by 25' inside and is 99" from a concrete slab to the bottom of a 2 by 6 truss 48" o.c. .the trusses are 62" to roof from bottom of 2 by 6. It is metal siding with leaky metal roof. No current plumbing. Electric is dodgy. Natural gas line present. The concrete is 11" thick on the high side (east facing) with 6" above ground and about 18" thick on the west facing side all above ground (may go deeper just have to dig down when my neighbor is home). I don't know if footings are present. I would like to play bass and drums and the neighbor 8' away not hear me, :| I would like a control room and a live room , possibly a small vox booth with windows between c.r. and l.r. and l.r. and v.b.. I don't have a measurement mic yet :( . I was thinking 2 by 6 walls with 2 by 4 offset walls,pink o.c. resilient channel on inside, one layer 5/8" d.w., green glue,layer 5/8" d.w. / outside one layer pink o.c. one layer 5/8 " d.w.. Ceiling would be similar but 2 by 4 construction? I have 8 3' by 7' doors from radio station rated 40 stc with 8 metal frames filled with mortar. Doors are easily 180 lbs and frames 150 lbs. roxul abs is readily available I'm thinking of soffit mounting my event asp 8's which have lf trim or his mackie hr 8 or both? I am thoroughly intimidated from trying a floating floor but what are other decoupling options ? :horse: I see my first job is replacing the roof (plywood and composite shingle?) or is it finding how much weight can go on my slab? If any body has an Idea for a layout I'll put up my pathetic attempts at a sketchup. Any help is greatly appreciated. my apologies if I write poorly or skipped any protocol Thank you, Marsh

"I am thoroughly intimidated from trying a floating floor but what are other decoupling options ?" Why would you need to decouple a damped heavy piece of material that will out perform the walls and your roof? Your issue with the floor is simply over thinking, the overhead roof and the metal flimsy sheathing, that's your mainest concern. You are not currently ready for a design so much as you are engaged in what it will take to isolate this metal building. "It is metal siding with leaky metal roof." that is what you have to address, and that requires mass, can the structure take additional mass, is it in your budget?

First, I would like to thank you, Brien for your response.

xSpace wrote:

Why would you need to decouple a damped heavy piece of material that will out perform the walls and your roof?

Great, that's what I wanted to hear.

xSpace wrote:

Your issue with the floor is simply over thinking, the overhead roof and the metal flimsy sheathing, that's your mainest concern.

I'm sure you're right, my plan is to put plywood and composite shingle up with help, unless there is a better way to go with the roof?

xSpace wrote:

You are not currently ready for a design so much as you are engaged in what it will take to isolate this metal building.

I will defer to your wisdom on this. I think i was seeing it as not so much isolating that building but, building an isolated studio within it and then improving the outward appearance . The siding was going to be my last project somewhere around installing actual hvac unit.

xSpace wrote:

"It is metal siding with leaky metal roof." that is what you have to address, and that requires mass, can the structure take additional mass, is it in your budget?

That is the big question budget, it wasn't in the budget to buy a house but I managed , I didn't have enough $ to remodel but my girl and I did a good job. I dream it and then do it. I have enough now that I could afford the roofing,drywall, the lumber,and rest of materials except hvac and siding. As to the weight constraints I will need to get my contractor over here, which is what I can't afford much of, his time. The truss-like structures are 48" o.c. with no central support so I don't think I would try to load that with much mass without at least doubling them and adding some kind of posts. back to school for me I've got Rod Gervais' book on the way and a couple others. Once again thank you for your response and your time.

per Brien, you definitely want to get your structure squared away - no leaks, added mass, etc. then from a design perspective, you have plenty of space to create a number of rooms-within-a-room. on the isolation, assuming your roof is not longer the major source of sound leakage, you could put the control room and small isolation rooms, lounge, etc closest to the neighbor so you have a large buffer of low or mid sound levels and the live room and drum booths etc farther away. in the louder rooms using a damped membrane floor will eliminate direct transfer into the concrete. your biggest out of pocket cost besides building materials will be your HVAC so begin thinking about the options sooner rather than later. it may be standard metal duct and air handler and exterior condenser will be the core system and then using flex duct to drop off the metal duct into your baffle boxes will give you the isolation you'll need and keeps costs reasonable, plus it's something most AC experts can readily handle since you'll be doing the work on the baffle boxes and they can focus on the overall core system.

Thank you Glenn for taking the time, I've read many of your posts and have great respect, I thought your plan looked very good, kind of similar to one of the SAE plans that john did, but with sparing my neighbors I had been looking at the large studio diagram of his for ideas but this might be a better idea. One thing I was wondering was, what the fundamental frequencies would be in the l.r. and the c.r.,I don't know how you measure ratios with the neo angles and the offset walls. If I do 2 layers of d.w. on the ceiling that's 1 1/4" plus hangers , so the question is what height ceiling are these dimensions set for? Another question was the wall thickness in the iso booth and air lock were different is that because they're lower volume areas? what should I look for in a damped membrane floor? So as I understand it my siding and roof are a leaf (leaky leaf)and the middle line in the frame is a non-faced side of the additional framing(from outside )siding ,2x6 filled with pink stuff non-faced, 2x6 filled w/ pink stuff , 2 layers 5/8 d.w. on rails,mineral fiber bass traps w/ slat resonators)mssm, basstrap, mid reflector. If my roof and siding and ceiling are each a leaf how do I add mass them?hardi backer, concrete siding,extra layers of plywood ceiling, it seems off to put drywall on the outside Would it be a good idea to build soffit mounts for speakers in a room like this and have you seen a discussion on how to couple the speakers with the ground or if that's necessary? Do you mind if I use this diagram as a basis for my build? if you don't feel like answering some of these questions I get it, I have allot to learn. Thanks again, Marshall

"and is 99" from a concrete slab to the bottom of a 2 by 6 truss 48" o.c. ." The main issue for isolation, assuming you need isolation, is that your existing structure may not be able to support much,,,guaranteed the 48 inch span negates any addition of anything over head. One reason is that the span is too broad in that the material you install >will< be under the pull of gravity and this assumes, once again, that this structure can take it, which it cannot since with not information other than what we have, the structure itself will begin to falter with the added mass. Glenn's design is fine, fits right into your room, but it is an interpretation of how you can install your rooms...that's it. The ability to mass up this room is a long sought out process that we have not even begun to get involved in. All things considered it might be in your best interest to basically build a room in a room...inside of this weak structure. But who can tell, saving me, at the present :) The issue with building a room in a room and expecting the "spring" to exist in a flimsy thin skinned shed is that you omit the exterior of the build from the overall design and only look to the interior picture and the thinking is that this will not only get you a high degree of isolation but will be money well spent. It's gonna look good, but the isolation is gonna suck :)

Thanks for responding again Brien,

xSpace wrote:

The main issue for isolation, assuming you need isolation, is that your existing structure may not be able to support much,,,guaranteed the 48 inch span negates any addition of anything over head.

Yes I need isolation

marsh wrote:

I believe (in my belief engine :lol: ) that isolation will be our first and biggest concern.

Sorry for jumping ahead without addressing the serious concerns you brought up,I had come to the conclusion that I would double up on the rafters to make them 24" o.c. which I would have to do for the front and back of the framing of the building but the sides are 24" o.c. already.

xSpace wrote:

All things considered it might be in your best interest to basically build a room in a room...inside of this weak structure.

Maybe?

xSpace wrote:

The issue with building a room in a room and expecting the "spring" to exist in a flimsy thin skinned shed is that you omit the exterior of the build from the overall design and only look to the interior picture and the thinking is that this will not only get you a high degree of isolation but will be money well spent.

So you're saying I would get get a good level of low frequency t.l./ isolation if a build a room whithin a room and ignore the metal sheathing, how much space do I have to lose? I couldn't find out where I found this but like this? floating walls One of the main reasons I shifted away from my 300 sq ft basement was I didn't think I'd have any mids or highs left after bass trapping due to the size and the mere 85" between the floor and the floor joists above.and all the heating ducting goes through. but maybe considering everything I should think about the basement as an option. I'll post another poor attempt at sketchupthanks again Brien, Marshall

the floating wall example is what Brien is referring to in terms of an inner ceiling on the isolation walls versus using the trusses. then again, assuming the walls and additional trusses can support the weight, then using isolation clips and hat channel on the drywall layers for the ceiling in each room, plus the damped membrane floor means you could get around 94-96" interior. on the room sizing - just a rough guess on how to apportion the space. depending on your need for a larger or smaller CR or LR etc will determine the final dimensions. as far as mode calculation - taking the averages will have to suffice as it's very much more complex otherwise. then again, when the room volume is small enough, you're wasting time on trying to do rigorous modeling and instead build to purpose then measure then do final treatments. the basement looks very small and you're ceiling will still be the weak point.

"I had come to the conclusion that I would double up on the rafters to make them 24" o.c. which I would have to do for the front and back of the framing of the building but the sides are 24" o.c. already" How do you know that you can do this, and still be at once safe and have the structure still be in support of the additional load?

Thank you again for helping to prepare me for my first real studio Brien and Glen,

gullfo wrote:

the floating wall example is what Brien is referring to in terms of an inner ceiling on the isolation walls versus using the trusses. then again, assuming the walls and additional trusses can support the weight, then using isolation clips and hat channel on the drywall layers for the ceiling in each room, plus the damped membrane floor means you could get around 94-96" interior.

I see, so I would lose a foot or so on each wall and 4 1/2 or so on the ceiling but wouldn't need to concern myself with the preexisting structure.

gullfo wrote:

on the room sizing - just a rough guess on how to apportion the space. depending on your need for a larger or smaller CR or LR etc will determine the final dimensions

Cool-I think if I was just thinking about the size of the spaces, I would think about shaving 2' off each the iso booth and the airlock to add to the live room, and maybe treat the airlock as a second iso booth without windows.

gullfo wrote:

as far as mode calculation - taking the averages will have to suffice as it's very much more complex otherwise.

yeah, I don't even know how to do that.

gullfo wrote:

when the room volume is small enough, you're wasting time on trying to do rigorous modeling and instead build to purpose then measure then do final treatments.

o.k. sounds good

gullfo wrote:

the basement looks very small and you're ceiling will still be the weak point.

I thought so too. as to Brien's post

xSpace wrote:

"I had come to the conclusion that I would double up on the rafters to make them 24" o.c. which I would have to do for the front and back of the framing of the building but the sides are 24" o.c. already" How do you know that you can do this, and still be at once safe and have the structure still be in support of the additional load?

I don't know thank you for your advice and help, Marshall

here's a pic of the inside

you should consult with a structural engineer to assess the walls and foundations. you might be able to add additional trusses but if the walls and/or foundation cannot support them... and you want to add mass there as the light exterior sheathing is going to be acoustically transparent for all intents and purposes.